UKC

...We arrived at the top of the east face of Gearr Aonach yesterday to find 7 abandoned walking axes ( 5 together near a bolder and 2 others dropped close by)... and no obvious footprints leading to the summit ! ... can anyone shed any light on this ?

In reply to shirleye:

Sounds like a winter skills day gone really wrong

In reply to shirleye:
They potentially belong to a group I know - I had a cryptic status appear in my news feed on Facebook over the weekend from a member of the group, involving a rescue somewhere in Glencoe resulting in losing eight axes and three bags. Absolutely no idea what happened or where, and so far haven't been able to find out.

In reply to shirleye:

Drop Glencoe MRT an email - they might be able to help out.

http://www.glencoemountainrescue.org.uk/contact/

In reply to shirleye:

I arrived back at the main car park in the dark, just as the Sea King was doing a search of both corries either side of ScnL on Saturday. There was also a guy at the car park missing 8 friends and another missing 4. Hope all ended well.

In reply to shirleye:

It would seem they do belong to the group in question - abandoned somewhere around grid ref. NN 155 548 after getting a ride in the big yellow whirly machine. Are they still in-situ, or did you carry them off the hill?

Everyone is safe and well.

In reply to shirleye:

Are the axes still up there?

In reply to tehmarks:
Thanks for your reply... good to hear that. The axes are stacked together closer to GR 158552. Sorry but it didn't seem appropriate to carry them off.

In reply to shirleye:

At an obvious boulder near top of C gully. (As reported to me by shirleye). There were no bags. Shirleye is of the opinion that the original grid ref NN 155 548 is probably correct.

In reply to shirleye:

one of the lost bags is mine, two other guys lost theirs, they fell off the edge near the boulder during the rescue. Everyone is ok. Please if someone finds them or has some info about them could you text me or email me - vymetalovadaniela@email.cz or sallacia@hotmail.com ? Care about the stuff (in mine ID etc.) in bags not bags themselves. Thank you very much

In reply to sallacia:

What happened?

In reply to sallacia:

Did you get everything back? I take it you mean the bags fell down the crag during the rescue?

What happened If you don't mind me asking?

Maybe we can learn something from it?

In reply to Stuart Hurworth:

we got nothing back so far. I am probably not the best person to describe the situation properly since i was not the leader of the group and did not know exactly which way were we supposed to go originally but basically we listened to advice of two hikers not to follow the icy path through the valley and go higher as soon as possible. but it got a bit dangerous since we had just crampons and axes and were not equipped for what we did (at one point we should had gone back on the path but it looked actually easier to go up than down). when we reached the top it was already getting dark and there was way to go further which was really icy and impossible for one guy to do since he did not have the crampons (forgot them in the car which was a mistake now we know) and we were exhausted. so we called the helicopter. i lost my bag when the rescuer attached me to a rope (before pulling me up to the helicopter which was in the air) i had to take off the backpack which slided to the edge of the top and fell over. The leader of the group has experience and others as well, they did not do this for the first time, unlucky factor and not great conditions played the role there. hope it might help you

In reply to sallacia:

Sounds like the blind leading the blind. A result of too many adventure shows on TV urging people to 'get out there' when they've no idea what they're doing probably. So easy to just 'call the helicopter' isn't it. Muppets
You don't deserve to get your kit back. I'll probably get a flaming for this but I don't care.

In reply to jimjimjim:



A bit harsh on the person that's put their faith in the Leader of the group, but, yes, forgotten crampons, going on not back, getting benighted doesn't make a pretty story.

Sallacia, I hope you get your gear back. Was this a professionally guided walk, a group of mates or somethign else?

In reply to JJL:

It's got students written all over it!

In reply to JJL:


True true. But they should know that just because their 'guide' has done it before doesn't mean they're capable of taking a big group out in winter, evidently. Through huge expence they all seem to be okay which is the main thing.

In reply to Removed User:


I was trying to be tactful!

In reply to sallacia:

All credit to you for letting folk know how easily you got into difficulties. It's very easy for people to tell you off for being stupid but we've all made mistakes in the past and by surviving these we get our "experience". The important thing is to learn not to repeat mistakes

Hope you get your valuables back eventually.

In reply to jimjimjim:

I hope they do get their gear back. Provided, of course, they make a donation of at least the equivalent value to the mountain rescue team who gave up their time to assist here, potentially putting themselves at risk in the process.

In reply to mav:
A donation has been made to Glencoe MRT although they were not involved except in the unloading of the aircraft

Of corse jimjimjim you are due a flaming, of course things didnt go to plan and bad advice was given, recieved and others would do things differently. If you weren't there you have no business slagging off people from the comfort and safety of your living room. The problem being that in future people will never explain what went wrong for fear of being slagged off and you and others who can learn by such mistakes will repeat them.

The ice axes were not allowed on the RAF chopper possibly a new thing due to security risks and had to be abandoned in future you may need to remove all belts and present all liquids and gels separately in a clear plastic bag. A mountain rescue aircraft would have no problem in taking ice axes. The RAF were crusing all that evening along aonach eagah and bidien looking for trade and presumably putting in some training hours. Given the circumstances flashing to the chopper was probably the best thing to do.

This is from the guys who were there and the lessons they learned. I was the guy in the carpark, in anxious parent mode.
Getting into difficulties was mostly because the guy who left his crampons in the car should have bailed out rather than convincing his mates he was ok to go on and the leader should have spotted this earlier and convinced him to turn back. In gully C and the slopes to the ridge the snow was soft enough not to need crampons above this it turned to windslab and impossible and quite exposed without crampons. The decision to go back down gully C or continue into corie nan lochan was essentially decided by the arrival of the RAF chopper.

Now you can debate all you like slagg off students and anyone you like from your armchair but the people there made the call based on many more factors. If you can't make a positive contribution to the forum i suggest you resist the urge to make a fool of yourself.

In reply to AndyMorgan:

"The ice axes were not allowed on the RAF chopper possibly a new thing due to security risks and had to be abandoned. A mountain rescue aircraft would have no problem in taking ice axes. "

As a point of information, if the helicopter was yellow, grey and red or red and white, then it was a "mountain rescue aircraft" in that these are the colours of the search and rescue aircraft supplied through the RAF, the RN and the Coastguard.

In reply to Welsh Kate:
Glencoe MRT didn't have contact with the aircraft and said it was RAF and wasn't one of theirs. Didn't see what color it was dark

In reply to AndyMorgan:

Mountain Rescue don't have their 'own' helicopters; Search and Rescue helicopters in the UK are coordinated through the Aeronautical Rescue Coordination Centre at Kinloss, and they're yellow (RAF), grey and red (RN) or red and white (Coastguard); they're generally the ones that pick up casualties that need evacuating in choppers, though Air Ambulance and Police (rarely) down here sometimes pick them up if appropriate / possible.

In reply to Welsh Kate:

Thanks for the info, I'm just going by what the MRT said that their chopper would have picked up the ice axes but RAF dont allow them

In reply to AndyMorgan:

Daft.

Just daft.

There are no other words.

In reply to shirleye:

Amazed but not surprised by the harsh words of some people on here.

Not everyone's an expert in every field, some people just want an adventure and end up biting off way more than they can chew. Education is the answer, not smug, elitist, newbie bashing from people that clearly have never made a single mistake in their life...

In reply to AndyMorgan:

And breath....
Muppets

In reply to AndyMorgan:

No expert, but the things I've picked up from MR training:

If you are winching someone in to the air, they occasionally start spinning. This is not a problem because the guy in the aircraft can stop you spinning and pull you in to the helicopter. If you are spinning with an ice-axe attached this is dangerous.
I highly doubt that the RAF are concerned about being hijacked by people they are rescuing.

Also, winching is relatively dangerous. Hovering requires large amounts of power, fuel, and any failure at this stage can be catastrophic - wasting time loading gear while hovering is not worth the risk.

Unfortunate to lose all that gear, but better to be rescued in one piece.

I also think it is good for people to be able to explain errors. Most accidents happen with at least some human element, and it should be ok to discuss this without mockery. (Unfortunately this is UKC and you can't do anything without a bit of mockery from someone who seems disproportionately angry)

Hope someone rescues your kit for you!

In reply to AndyMorgan:



Any decent leader would have ensured every member of the party was properly equipped before they left the car park and refused to take anybody who had no crampons.

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:

Wow, thats a great and simplistic view. So every decent leader does a full "show me" check of every bit of kit of each individual in the party...every trip?

that will be some heap of kit tipped out in the carpark before the off. Yes I do get that some kit is more important than others, but I would be interested to hear if any of the professional leaders on here comment on whether a full tip out kit check is done every time rather than going verbally through the list and spot checking some items?

Should they inspect each piece of kit too, ie do only decent leaders spot a broken crampon for instance?

To the OP, hope you get the kit back and learn from the experience.

In reply to Wainers44:

Glad everyone got out of the situation safe and well. We are lucky that we have so many well trained responders in our Mountains whether that may be MRT, Search And Rescue air assets, SARDA, etc etc.

I hope that the leader in charge of this group learns from their mistakes. The outcome could have been a lot more serious than the loss of some expensive kit.

In reply to shirleye:

Seems there is a lot of school teachers about here assuming a group of mates climbing a mountain is run something like a guide/client trip. What actually happens is by discussion and consent the term "leader" applies to the guy who's ideas get listened to and agreed with the most rather than someone in charge in a position to refuse his mate

In reply to AndyMorgan:
So here I was bored on a Tuesday morning , read the thread, going to add a quick comment commending you for keeping relatively calm with the unnecessarly harsh Mr /Mrs/ Ms angry armchair warriors and the usual lack of some people's ability to see the broader picture etc etc and then totally out the blue you call everybody whose knocking you a "school teacher " as if it's a recognised term of Abuse . Care to elaborate , I m genuinely intrested ?

In reply to mike123:

not intended as a term of abuse, humble apologies if this seemed the case, only an observation that the teacher/pupil relationship between the "leader" and the followeres had been automatically assumed by some commentors.

In reply to shirleye:

Some fairly OTT responses going on here - from the comfort of my armchair (and my complete lack of winter experience) surely the best way to stop this happening is to calmly tell someone what they might of done differently, and create an open exchange? Just then some punter like me might read it and learn something, rather than creating a culture of fear where people don't own up to anything. Just my opinion.

In reply to mike123:

>picture etc etc and then totally out the blue you call everybody whose knocking you a "school teacher " as if it's a recognised term of Abuse .

I asked my kids and 'school teacher' is definitely an officially recognised term of Abuse.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:



Oh well, that's alright then . Carry on .

In reply to Pewtle:

The thing you need to realise is that people screw up and get away with it all the time. If you get away with it then it is all part of the fun and you had a grand day out. Incompetence is only unforgivable if you are also unlucky.

Something like that anyway.

In reply to AndyMorgan:

The nature of internet forums makes balanced and educational dialogue more difficult. Clearly some bad decisions were made which culminated in the groups eventual rescue. We all make bad calls but i think it is important to reflect with some humility and some embarrassment when it does happen rather than being too defensive. This often goes against our nature.

One thing I have noticed both in the media and on UKC that whenever an incident takes place, the leader or party were always 'experienced'. Without context its a meaningless phrase really.

In reply to everyone:

I'll happily admit to not judging anyone here. I've also done silly things and got myself into situations which are embarrassing now. But at the time I didn't think. Just so you know other people have done it too

In reply to stubbed:

I get that, we all make mistakes, but put simply this was; "bunch of people went walking without the correct kit, listened to some walkers who pointed them in the "right" direction without consulting a map, kept walking even though they knew they were in danger, called for help".

Calling for help was the most sensible thing that happened, but there is just SO MUCH information online, in books, and by being with experienced people that would have at least in part mitigated against the preceding events from happening. I have been in a white out on Aonach Mor when on a winter training course, but I was with a qualified leader who micronavigated us to safety, and I learnt a lot from that so I do speak from experience. The day before we were on the Buachaille and turned back near the top as someone had extremely cold feet - that's team work, not a gung-ho attitude to carrying on.

For all the people wanting a balanced response - to the "worring parent in the carpark" - spend some money sending your kid on a course, it's by no means a fool proof way to survive in dangerous situations but it is worth it. I too spent many a day in the hill with my dad and other people whom I respected massively, mountaineering is a skill, it's dangerous and it can be fun, but I don't think there's such a thing as too much knowledge. Make it a father and son event and you might learn something too.

In reply to shirleye:
My comments may be harsh but for me the fear of ridicule is a great incentive to get things right in the first place.
Also I find it amusing that whenever anyone criticises anybody on UKC they're instantly branded an armchair climber etc. Well if I saw you in a pub I'd say the same thing and whether you like it or not I speak from experience which is not a bad thing. Again I'm glad that the group is all safe but I think there's nothing wrong with a critical comment on a thread now and again. They/you shouldn't be made to feel that it's all okay and that's what helicopters are for.
I hope you have more successful trips in future where a little extra planning has taken place.

In reply to jimjimjim:

Once, long ago, I nearly got avalanched coming down the side of Church Door Buttress having been a complete prat all day. But I'm not saying any more because I'm a bit ashamed of myself.
Disapprobation is the penalty for incompetence. I passed a guy in the bottom after I'd survived all dangers and his look, when he gave my kit the once over, has stayed with me.
On a different occasion, the guide who shouted "There's always one!", when he heard me calling for a rope on easy ground, did me a favour.
Climbing's a hard game so novices should take the Hard Word on the chin and move on to better things. (Of course a professional does not mix up abuse with frank correction.)

In reply to Kirsticles:
I must try and follow my own advice and resist the temptation to make a fool of myself here but you seem to have elaborated the facts reported to fit your own perception. Of course it is sensible do all the things you suggest to consult a map, take the correct kit, go on a training course, have a day out with your kids....

http://xkcd.com/386/

simple points for correction

"walkers who pointed them in the "right" direction without consulting a map", amazing speculation on their lack of navigation. In fact they changed plan based on the testament of other walkers with first hand experience of the route and verified this with their own maps

"Make it a father and son event and you might learn something too." How very dare you assume! Of course I have had many many days out with the boy who is now quite old enough to do his own thing. I can only say on this occasion that I with 40 odd years of mountain experience I would probably have done the same thing, who's to say, possibly even getting into that mess in the first place. He and the team made the best out of the situation had a great day out, did some amazing climbing with fantastic teamwork and saw the best mountain sunset you will ever see, real character building stuff in a lifetime of trolling the internet you will never get that. And once in difficulty took the safest option rather than " a gung-ho attitude to carrying on". As for his kit, now probably scattered all over hidden valley, isn't important but how on earth would you know if it were the "correct kit" I wish I had been there last week but at 57 my old body was on another gentler route up Stob Dearg that day with another 9 old and young mates.

In reply to AndyMorgan:


and then called for a chopper to get them down.

Stop digging, mate.

In reply to AndyMorgan:

Re-read the post from your your friend "sallacia", what I said is not speculation, it's fact from a first hand account rather than your proud father view.

"we got nothing back so far. I am probably not the best person to describe the situation properly since i was not the leader of the group and did not know exactly which way were we supposed to go originally but basically we listened to advice of two hikers not to follow the icy path through the valley and go higher as soon as possible. but it got a bit dangerous since we had just crampons and axes and were not equipped for what we did (at one point we should had gone back on the path but it looked actually easier to go up than down). when we reached the top it was already getting dark and there was way to go further which was really icy and impossible for one guy to do since he did not have the crampons (forgot them in the car which was a mistake now we know) and we were exhausted. so we called the helicopter. i lost my bag when the rescuer attached me to a rope (before pulling me up to the helicopter which was in the air) i had to take off the backpack which slided to the edge of the top and fell over. The leader of the group has experience and others as well, they did not do this for the first time, unlucky factor and not great conditions played the role there. hope it might help you"


It may have been an amazing sunset, but it's just a shame members of their group were too exhausted to enjoy it, but at least you did eh?

Please don't be too proud, I don't mean offence when suggesting that everyone can always learn more from a mountaineering skills course................................

In reply to jimjimjim:
'They/you shouldn't be made to feel that it's all okay and that's what helicopters are for.'

I have to admit this is the viewpoint that seems to be coming over from the father. Most odd. I would certainly have been relieved if any of my grown up kids had been involved, and had managed to get off unscathed, but my instincts would be 100% 'what must we learn, what went wrong, how do we avoid it in the future', rather than, well, I'm not sure what really......

In reply to Kirsticles:
I applaud your fervor as one who has seen the error of my ways, I am indeed a sinner amongst angels here and confess myself guilty of being a proud father. I don't intend to play down the situation or the gravity of the potential consequences, believe me I have considered them as carefuly as would any parent in such a position. You can be sure I have helped the team to learn all that can be learned from this. It is certainly not in my interest to bullshit this. I would ask, please don't exagerate the situation for dramatic effect or twist peoples words to spark a response. That will stop this being a learning experience.

I do hope you also make your father proud and I am sure you will. At least I hope he never gets to watch the lights bobbing about on the mountain instead of enjoying the sunset.

Sadly my experience of such mountaineering skills courses has become jaded, mostly through their tendancy for conversion of rational humans into fearmongers and worriers, not such a bad substitute to keep you safe untill experience and the wisdom that comes from it kicks in.

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:

yes i would of done a kit muster
sgt major style .

In reply to shirleye:

I'm reticent to comment on this - I know Andy (who is very experienced), and I'm sure that all lessons that can be learnt from this unfortunate incident have been learnt. However...

One thing which I don't think anyone else has specifically touched on is the lack of knowledge of the route or situation within the group. I'm only going by what sallacia has said - but it would seem that there were members of the group who were unsure of the route, or of their current location or situation at some point. Now we obviously can't expect novices to the outdoors to have the same situational awareness as someone with a lifetime of experience in the mountains, but I think it's important that everyone has some idea of the plan, of where they are, etc. What happens if the 'leader' is incapacitated?

One other thing to consider is that while we are fortunate to have mountain rescue in this country, the consequences of getting it wrong elsewhere could lead to great expense, or being totally on your own. I'm sure it's been discussed by the group already, but I think it's important to emphasise to the less experienced membersin particular that MR really is a last resort, and that being able to independently cope with and extract oneself from crap situations in the hills is an essential skill. The heli ride out of trouble isn't always available, even in this country.

Perhaps we can sum up by saying it was the correct decision for a situation that should never have transpired?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Hmmm, and there is a shortage of Teachers just now.

In reply to shirleye:

Come on folks. They say that experience is the sum total of near misses. I consider myself pretty safe on the hill but only because I've made every mistake going and lived to tell the tale. Who here hasn't done something dumb and needed a helping hand or luck/divine intervention to get them out of it. The trick is not to make the same mistake twice which I doubt they will.

In reply to AndyMorgan:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/02/150206-mountaineering-accid...

"One of the things I have tried to avoid is using language like, 'This guy was a real dummy,'" Williamson explains. "Any time I get a call from a sheriff's office laying blame, that doesn't serve to help educate people."

But "if they call themselves a dummy," he says, "that's fine."

Having taken numerous inexperienced groups -- indeed, dreaded students -- out in the winter hills on student mountaineering club meets, being a graduate who won't leave her student mountaineering club, I can say that I have not found it terribly difficult to make sure everyone has ice axes and crampons, and to tell that person who asks, "I don't have crampons. Can I come on this walk?" emphatically 'no.'

In reply to Emily_pipes:

Agreed Emily...people who I accompany/lead get an 'essentials' kitlist and I make it clear that any omissions, mistakes are owned up to at the time they're noticed. I also emphasise that it's a 'personal responsibility' culture. Look out (for each other), speak out, act.

On the general tone of some of the posts. Make your point but don't belittle people because it is unnecessary and disrespectful to people, some of whom have been brave enough to speak honestly of what went wrong, so we can all learn.

In reply to Nigel Modern:

On your post.....don't tell me what to do. If I want to belittle someone I will. Too many softies for my liking

In reply to jimjimjim:

If you want to belittle someone you will?
Quite frankly, don't be an arsehole. What exactly do you think you're achieving?