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Hi there folks
I'm a newby to the site, so hoping you'll all be gentle with me!
My name's Carly (I know, original user name, right?) and I've just started out climbing about a month ago. So far I've confined myself to indoor wall climbing, but am insanely keen to get outdoors and start tackling bigger stuff. There are 2 problems with that. Firstly, I'm a complete whimp and don't do cold so will need to wait until it warms up a bit. Secondly, I'm blind.
That in itself isn't a huge problem, but I'm struggling to come up with good ideas for making routes really easy to follow without being confined to doing ttop ropes or single pitches the whole time. My fella is a climbing instructor so has a good bit of experience with getting newcomers up and running, but so far, I'm the first blind person he's worked with. Obviously I've come up with work arounds for various different bits, but as I've not experienced real rock yet, my ideas are quite hit and miss.
On the wall it's pretty easy. If I'm climbing free routes, I just grope around until I find a good enough hand or foot hold, then up I go, no problem. If I'm climbing planned routes then he yells instructions up at me so I know where to feel for the next hold. My route memory is shocking, so pre-planning will only get me so far (think goldfish and you've pretty much summed me up).
So, UKC gurus, can you make any suggestions as to how we can go about making sure that the outdoorsy stuff is as easy as the walls are proving to be?
To give you an idea of where I am at the minute, I'm still climbing easy routes on verticals and slabs. I'm competent (at least, I haven't dropped anyone yet) with belaying, and can tie in just fine. I've already bought my own gear so I can get used to the feel of holds etc under my feet in my shoes so that hopefully by the time I get outside the feet sensation stuff will be sorted and deciding which holds are good and which aren't will be second nature.
I'm genuinely committed to this and want to go all the way, so any practical suggestions you guys can give would be awesome. My guy is a designer, so little electronic tags etc aren't out of the question I guess. However, the simpler the better! Electronics can fail, simpler can't.
Thanks for reading my ramble!
I'm a newby to the site, so hoping you'll all be gentle with me!
My name's Carly (I know, original user name, right?) and I've just started out climbing about a month ago. So far I've confined myself to indoor wall climbing, but am insanely keen to get outdoors and start tackling bigger stuff. There are 2 problems with that. Firstly, I'm a complete whimp and don't do cold so will need to wait until it warms up a bit. Secondly, I'm blind.
That in itself isn't a huge problem, but I'm struggling to come up with good ideas for making routes really easy to follow without being confined to doing ttop ropes or single pitches the whole time. My fella is a climbing instructor so has a good bit of experience with getting newcomers up and running, but so far, I'm the first blind person he's worked with. Obviously I've come up with work arounds for various different bits, but as I've not experienced real rock yet, my ideas are quite hit and miss.
On the wall it's pretty easy. If I'm climbing free routes, I just grope around until I find a good enough hand or foot hold, then up I go, no problem. If I'm climbing planned routes then he yells instructions up at me so I know where to feel for the next hold. My route memory is shocking, so pre-planning will only get me so far (think goldfish and you've pretty much summed me up).
So, UKC gurus, can you make any suggestions as to how we can go about making sure that the outdoorsy stuff is as easy as the walls are proving to be?
To give you an idea of where I am at the minute, I'm still climbing easy routes on verticals and slabs. I'm competent (at least, I haven't dropped anyone yet) with belaying, and can tie in just fine. I've already bought my own gear so I can get used to the feel of holds etc under my feet in my shoes so that hopefully by the time I get outside the feet sensation stuff will be sorted and deciding which holds are good and which aren't will be second nature.
I'm genuinely committed to this and want to go all the way, so any practical suggestions you guys can give would be awesome. My guy is a designer, so little electronic tags etc aren't out of the question I guess. However, the simpler the better! Electronics can fail, simpler can't.
Thanks for reading my ramble!
2
In reply to carly87:
I don't have any ideas myself but you could try emailing Erik Weihenmayer?
He is a blind climber, I have seen a video where he uses a special device with his tongue.
I have sent you a link, I don't know if you can read this or have speech to text so the email address listen on his site is info@touchthetop.com.
http://www.touchthetop.com/rock-climbing
I don't have any ideas myself but you could try emailing Erik Weihenmayer?
He is a blind climber, I have seen a video where he uses a special device with his tongue.
I have sent you a link, I don't know if you can read this or have speech to text so the email address listen on his site is info@touchthetop.com.
http://www.touchthetop.com/rock-climbing
In reply to carly87:
That pretty much how we all started climbing!
Replace your guide dog with a guide monkey? Sorry - I couldn't resist.
More helpfully, maybe ribbon/cord tied to (small) weights to leave hanging over holds might help you find the next hold, although make sure there's no-one below in case you knock them off. At the risk of over-complicating things, some system of varying length/thickness/weight might give you some clue as to the next hold's distance away?
I guess the obvious one is to ask your lead to make sure runners are reasonably close and follow the route as closely as possible, so you can't veer off route - e.g. if the route moves to the right, up and then back left, make sure there are runners to the right and the rope doesn't just go straight up. This is where learning to climb outside on double ropes might help, or you'll encounter rope drag.
Could you get specific pages of a guidebook printed in Brail to take with you?
Have you tried radio headsets - might help communications out of line of sight/longer distances?
If you can belay on single pitches, I see no reason why you shouldn't be taking on multi-pitch routes as soon as you feel ready.
You didn't say if you'd been blind from birth, or not? How well can you visualise what's being described to you?
> If I'm climbing free routes, I just grope around until I find a good enough hand or foot hold, then up I go, no problem.
That pretty much how we all started climbing!
Replace your guide dog with a guide monkey? Sorry - I couldn't resist.
More helpfully, maybe ribbon/cord tied to (small) weights to leave hanging over holds might help you find the next hold, although make sure there's no-one below in case you knock them off. At the risk of over-complicating things, some system of varying length/thickness/weight might give you some clue as to the next hold's distance away?
I guess the obvious one is to ask your lead to make sure runners are reasonably close and follow the route as closely as possible, so you can't veer off route - e.g. if the route moves to the right, up and then back left, make sure there are runners to the right and the rope doesn't just go straight up. This is where learning to climb outside on double ropes might help, or you'll encounter rope drag.
Could you get specific pages of a guidebook printed in Brail to take with you?
Have you tried radio headsets - might help communications out of line of sight/longer distances?
If you can belay on single pitches, I see no reason why you shouldn't be taking on multi-pitch routes as soon as you feel ready.
You didn't say if you'd been blind from birth, or not? How well can you visualise what's being described to you?
In reply to carly87:
Welcome, carly87.
There were a group of blind climbers and assistant belayers at Awesome walls in Liverpool the other week when I was there and they all had microphone and earphone headsets. I thought it was a fantastic idea, it seemed to work well for them. It may be a large outlay initially, but I'm sure it would be effective.
One other suggestion is if you can climb as a party of three, the third person could abseil down next to you and help direct limbs. Instructors use this trick all the time to help give feedback to people when they are leading or seconding.
Hope that helps.
Welcome, carly87.
There were a group of blind climbers and assistant belayers at Awesome walls in Liverpool the other week when I was there and they all had microphone and earphone headsets. I thought it was a fantastic idea, it seemed to work well for them. It may be a large outlay initially, but I'm sure it would be effective.
One other suggestion is if you can climb as a party of three, the third person could abseil down next to you and help direct limbs. Instructors use this trick all the time to help give feedback to people when they are leading or seconding.
Hope that helps.
In reply to carly87:
Nothing really useful to add to the above except for inspiration (although it sounds like you provide that yourself) http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5602
Nothing really useful to add to the above except for inspiration (although it sounds like you provide that yourself) http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=5602
In reply to carly87:
On a purely practical level then tactile 'guide tapes' from hand hold to hand hold (duck tape?) might help. I've never been able to suss a strategy for footholds, though!
I'm currently organising a seminar on disability awareness for a variety of folks involved with the management of / advice to walls and I'll make sure we look at provision for the blind.
I nearly said I'd attach a photo and then though - dummmmmmm!
There IS a crag in Arco that has been equipped specifically for the blind (tactile topo / braille descriptions / shorter bolt intervals) AND I've spoken to some wall managers who have said that they might be able to use some of those strategies to set routes that were 'blind-friendly'. The BMC has an Equity committee who are also looking to support initiatives in this area: when I mentioned the crag in Arco to them they immediately started looking for a UK crag to do the same development! But the BMC certainly are supportive of any initiatives that support climbers with a disability.
All the best,
Andy
On a purely practical level then tactile 'guide tapes' from hand hold to hand hold (duck tape?) might help. I've never been able to suss a strategy for footholds, though!
I'm currently organising a seminar on disability awareness for a variety of folks involved with the management of / advice to walls and I'll make sure we look at provision for the blind.
I nearly said I'd attach a photo and then though - dummmmmmm!
There IS a crag in Arco that has been equipped specifically for the blind (tactile topo / braille descriptions / shorter bolt intervals) AND I've spoken to some wall managers who have said that they might be able to use some of those strategies to set routes that were 'blind-friendly'. The BMC has an Equity committee who are also looking to support initiatives in this area: when I mentioned the crag in Arco to them they immediately started looking for a UK crag to do the same development! But the BMC certainly are supportive of any initiatives that support climbers with a disability.
All the best,
Andy
Hi there guys and thanks for all the replies already!
DSH, I've already emailed him but he wasn't massively helpful. he gave me another contact in America that I'm currently following up, but so far I've heard nothing back. My text to speech thingy does do links. It'll do everything other than pictures, but thank you for being so thoughtful!
LastBoyScout, a guide monkey sounds ace! There was some crazy lady in America who tried it out for a while, but they gave up pretty quick as the monkeys were so, so naughty!
he did mention that he climbs with double ropes when he's leading a climb, so I guess it wouldn't be too much trouble for him to put runners in as you describe. To be honest, although the weights sounds like a good idea, I'd worry that firstly they couldn't always be attached, and secondly that I'd dtop them on people. It's also potentially quite a lot of extra weight to carry on top of a full rack, and a lot of placing for him as a lead and cleaning for me as a second.
I could get guide books printed but they'd be mega expensive. Braille is exorbitant to produce, very bulky and heavy to carry and very easily damaged. The first spot of rain would see it unreadable. I'll always climb with someone though, so could get them to read the books for me.
Radio headsets is an amazingly good idea. I'd worried about this actually as, for obvious reasons, communication is key and I don't like having to yell, then really struggle to hear a reply.
I haven't belayed a single pitch yet. I haven't been on real rock, just on the walls and even then it's all been top roped as our local wall is a bit hot for lead climbing and I don't want to play around with that yet and get in someone else's way. I'm just concentrating on building my strength and endurance at the moment, but am due to go home to Ireland to see my folks next month and would really love to get in a climb or two on the mournes while I'm home if I can.
I've been blind since birth, yep. I can visualise quite well, or at least, I'll be able to once I've had experience of it, but at the moment, cliff faces, cracks, chimneys etc are all just concepts. You guys learn what they all are by looking, but I can't really feel a whole cliff face until I'm climbing, so will have to learn about all of this as well as everything else.
Hi Jon. It helps a lot! Thank you for the headset idea. The abseiling one is really good too. Will have to find a third climber with some experience now who's happy to do that with us. It makes a lot of sense though, at least initially.
Hi Oli. Inspirational's not a word I'd use. Normal is!
Andy, that's really fab! I doubt I know enough yet to be helpful, but if I can contribute anything at all to your efforts, you've only to ask.
Tape is quite a nice idea. Guessing it would also have to be cleaned though, particularly on trad routes?
Post edited at 19:47
In reply to carly87:
Hi Carly,
you may find this podcast of interest http://www.npr.org/programs/invisibilia/378577902/how-to-become-batman?show...
Hi Carly,
you may find this podcast of interest http://www.npr.org/programs/invisibilia/378577902/how-to-become-batman?show...
In reply to carly87:
Just to be clear - are you 100% blind, or legally blind? (for others who wonder why I ask - when people call themselves blind, they usually mean legally blind, which is a certain threshold of blindness - but is not as commonly thought, always 100% - many legally blind people have tiny spots of vision they can use for certain tasks).
I don't see why you couldn't climb an easy route outdoors right now (assuming you knew exactly what to do) - you can feel for runners, and do all of the unclipping with feel alone. I suspect this means you will use slightly more of your energy for a given climb as a sighted climber (all things equal), as you will spend at least a few extra seconds per runner searching along it for where and how the pro is slotted and how to best pull it out.
Sometimes the pro can be slotted in such a way that you will not be able to feel how best to remove it (maybe the crack would be too thin for fingers to enter) - not sure what you'd do about that other than hope you can wriggle it out.
Just to be clear - are you 100% blind, or legally blind? (for others who wonder why I ask - when people call themselves blind, they usually mean legally blind, which is a certain threshold of blindness - but is not as commonly thought, always 100% - many legally blind people have tiny spots of vision they can use for certain tasks).
I don't see why you couldn't climb an easy route outdoors right now (assuming you knew exactly what to do) - you can feel for runners, and do all of the unclipping with feel alone. I suspect this means you will use slightly more of your energy for a given climb as a sighted climber (all things equal), as you will spend at least a few extra seconds per runner searching along it for where and how the pro is slotted and how to best pull it out.
Sometimes the pro can be slotted in such a way that you will not be able to feel how best to remove it (maybe the crack would be too thin for fingers to enter) - not sure what you'd do about that other than hope you can wriggle it out.
Hi there.
I'm completely blind. I have light perception so basically I can see light and dark, but nothing usable or useful. I see no shapes, no shadows, no movement, nothing really.
Hope that helps!
I'm completely blind. I have light perception so basically I can see light and dark, but nothing usable or useful. I see no shapes, no shadows, no movement, nothing really.
Hope that helps!
In reply to Andy Say:
Yes and no. BMC can be great in this area, but they are also rather close minded on occasion and due to the bulk of their organisation they can be rather slow-moving. Afraid theres a few talented 'disabled' climbers that have found interaction with the BMC very frustrating and hampering.
Glad to say that they definitely improving, but worth understanding that due to their methods of operation they can seem to be a stonewall at times.
They tend to not start any programs along these lines, more support working projects. Potential for getting them on board once you have a working system though.
There are a few disabled instructors and climbers active without ties to the BMC, also some organisations, IDID in the southwest spring to mind, although they are fairly new and not sure they have worked with visually impaired people much, or at all, yet. I'll dig out some contacts and message you when I get a chance to compile the details together.
There was a video on UKC a while about about two blind climbers doing multi-pitch as a team, one used a stick for 'tapping' to locate holds, the other used audible 'clicks' in a way of echo-location. Obviously both are practiced techniques, but shows they are options available, guess its finding what works for you as an individual.
> But the BMC certainly are supportive of any initiatives that support climbers with a disability.
Yes and no. BMC can be great in this area, but they are also rather close minded on occasion and due to the bulk of their organisation they can be rather slow-moving. Afraid theres a few talented 'disabled' climbers that have found interaction with the BMC very frustrating and hampering.
Glad to say that they definitely improving, but worth understanding that due to their methods of operation they can seem to be a stonewall at times.
They tend to not start any programs along these lines, more support working projects. Potential for getting them on board once you have a working system though.
There are a few disabled instructors and climbers active without ties to the BMC, also some organisations, IDID in the southwest spring to mind, although they are fairly new and not sure they have worked with visually impaired people much, or at all, yet. I'll dig out some contacts and message you when I get a chance to compile the details together.
There was a video on UKC a while about about two blind climbers doing multi-pitch as a team, one used a stick for 'tapping' to locate holds, the other used audible 'clicks' in a way of echo-location. Obviously both are practiced techniques, but shows they are options available, guess its finding what works for you as an individual.
In reply to carly87:
If the lead climber used a belay device in guide mode then a second climber could climb the pitch as well so they could direct you as you wanted /needed . Very happy to help if you are ever in the Bristol area.
Maybe your partner could record a running commentary as he climbed (using a bluetooth or radio headset) then you could play it back as you climbed.
Adding numbered braille tags to the pieces of protection might help you both locate where you are on a pitch.
Good luck
If the lead climber used a belay device in guide mode then a second climber could climb the pitch as well so they could direct you as you wanted /needed . Very happy to help if you are ever in the Bristol area.
Maybe your partner could record a running commentary as he climbed (using a bluetooth or radio headset) then you could play it back as you climbed.
Adding numbered braille tags to the pieces of protection might help you both locate where you are on a pitch.
Good luck
In reply to flour:
Climb some slabs outside that don't really have holds. Your relying on friction and feeling. Or cracks, you can follow them by touch. Plenty on the grit to top rope and have some fun i expect.
Climb some slabs outside that don't really have holds. Your relying on friction and feeling. Or cracks, you can follow them by touch. Plenty on the grit to top rope and have some fun i expect.
In reply to carly87:
I ride a tandem with a blind friend. I give a running commentary describing the scenery, gradients, turns, gearing, stops / starts. Does your climbing partner describe what they are doing as they climb? Headset works a treat I do that when multi pitch.
I ride a tandem with a blind friend. I give a running commentary describing the scenery, gradients, turns, gearing, stops / starts. Does your climbing partner describe what they are doing as they climb? Headset works a treat I do that when multi pitch.
Hi Steve
Any contacts you have would be great, but I think I'm after either experienced blind climbers or those very experienced at instructing good blind climbers. Many blind folk who climb tend to go no further than the sort of level you'd get to in a wall taster session, and I definitely want to do more than that. Well, I already am.
I can understand the difficulties with the BMC. I think they probably come with any big organisation and a lot has to be attributed to size. Hopefully if I develop something they'll take it on.
I saw the video you're talking about on Youtube, and it changed my mind from thinking it wouldn't ever be safe for me to lead to, "Hey, I might be able to do this!"
Flour, The running commentary is pretty good as are the braille tags particularly in line with the commentary. Would need to work out a system to do that but I don't see why not! I think we're planning to start climbing as a 3. He's got another friend who's also an instructor who we climbed with this week, so that's pretty handy. I'll take you up on that offer if I'm ever in Bristol though! Is there much good climbing down there?
Snoop, I'm not good yet at climbing without holds. I've been working hard on that but can't get my feet to stick enough to feel safe. I'm hoping to be able to do it, but think that's a long way off yet. I also don't want to just be confined to top roping. The other thing to consider on high friction routes are my hands. If I callous my fingertips too much, I won't be able to feel things. If I use friction only for my handholds, that's going to happen. If I can't feel, then my interaction with my environment goes way down. I won't even be able to read! I'm a bit precious about my hands and do accept that this is going to restrict the routes I can climb but I don't want to sacrifice my ability to read.
OrgSM, We're actually looking into getting a tandem as well. He's pretty good at describing things, but I think he gets frustrated with my awful memory. No sooner has he told me something than I've forgotten it, even the easy routes. I don't know why it's so hard to stick in my mind, especially as I never forget the bigger stuff like safety checks, procedures etc.
So, lots of you have spoken about headsets. Can anyone recommend a particularly good pair?
Any contacts you have would be great, but I think I'm after either experienced blind climbers or those very experienced at instructing good blind climbers. Many blind folk who climb tend to go no further than the sort of level you'd get to in a wall taster session, and I definitely want to do more than that. Well, I already am.
I can understand the difficulties with the BMC. I think they probably come with any big organisation and a lot has to be attributed to size. Hopefully if I develop something they'll take it on.
I saw the video you're talking about on Youtube, and it changed my mind from thinking it wouldn't ever be safe for me to lead to, "Hey, I might be able to do this!"
Flour, The running commentary is pretty good as are the braille tags particularly in line with the commentary. Would need to work out a system to do that but I don't see why not! I think we're planning to start climbing as a 3. He's got another friend who's also an instructor who we climbed with this week, so that's pretty handy. I'll take you up on that offer if I'm ever in Bristol though! Is there much good climbing down there?
Snoop, I'm not good yet at climbing without holds. I've been working hard on that but can't get my feet to stick enough to feel safe. I'm hoping to be able to do it, but think that's a long way off yet. I also don't want to just be confined to top roping. The other thing to consider on high friction routes are my hands. If I callous my fingertips too much, I won't be able to feel things. If I use friction only for my handholds, that's going to happen. If I can't feel, then my interaction with my environment goes way down. I won't even be able to read! I'm a bit precious about my hands and do accept that this is going to restrict the routes I can climb but I don't want to sacrifice my ability to read.
OrgSM, We're actually looking into getting a tandem as well. He's pretty good at describing things, but I think he gets frustrated with my awful memory. No sooner has he told me something than I've forgotten it, even the easy routes. I don't know why it's so hard to stick in my mind, especially as I never forget the bigger stuff like safety checks, procedures etc.
So, lots of you have spoken about headsets. Can anyone recommend a particularly good pair?
In reply to carly87:
Glenmore Lodge in Aviemore do a course (or did recently) for visually impaired climbers and walkers which presumably would give you some useful tips and techniques.
enquiries@glenmorelodge.org.uk
I met a man who had climbed the Old Man of Hoy with similar vision to your own, it can be done and the people with the skills to help are out there but I'm afraid that that is the limit of my knowledge
Glenmore Lodge in Aviemore do a course (or did recently) for visually impaired climbers and walkers which presumably would give you some useful tips and techniques.
enquiries@glenmorelodge.org.uk
I met a man who had climbed the Old Man of Hoy with similar vision to your own, it can be done and the people with the skills to help are out there but I'm afraid that that is the limit of my knowledge
1
In reply to carly87:
Wow, never thought of that. Most climbers actually WANT to get their finger skin toughened up! But true friction slab climbing relies more on your feet not your hands. The hardest bit to learn is to trust your feet and it's only really at that stage that you tend to pull too hard on your fingers - usually because you're lying against the rock rather than standing on your feet. I'd have said that your fingers would suffer more on rough resin holds than proper rock?
> If I callous my fingertips too much, I won't be able to feel things ... If I can't feel, then my interaction with my environment goes way down. I won't even be able to read!
Wow, never thought of that. Most climbers actually WANT to get their finger skin toughened up! But true friction slab climbing relies more on your feet not your hands. The hardest bit to learn is to trust your feet and it's only really at that stage that you tend to pull too hard on your fingers - usually because you're lying against the rock rather than standing on your feet. I'd have said that your fingers would suffer more on rough resin holds than proper rock?
In reply to carly87:
I have no experience of radio sets but this technology aimed at motor cyclists looks like it could be adapted.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/cobra-pmr-open-face-helmet-headset-kit-n69kb
May be start another thread asking for advice about radios? I am sure there are lots of
people on here with the knowledge and expertise.
There is lots of climbing around Bristol but not that much sport. Whether it is good or not depends on your taste ! The Avon Gorge has a road through it so can be noisy and very frustrating trying to communicate. The Wye valley has some great multi pitch climbs and a much nicer environment.
It is all limestone so not rough rock which means less damage to your finger tips.
However this also means holds on easy routes get polished.
I guess you need to try climbing on different types of rock to find out what best suits your style.
I have no experience of radio sets but this technology aimed at motor cyclists looks like it could be adapted.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/cobra-pmr-open-face-helmet-headset-kit-n69kb
May be start another thread asking for advice about radios? I am sure there are lots of
people on here with the knowledge and expertise.
There is lots of climbing around Bristol but not that much sport. Whether it is good or not depends on your taste ! The Avon Gorge has a road through it so can be noisy and very frustrating trying to communicate. The Wye valley has some great multi pitch climbs and a much nicer environment.
It is all limestone so not rough rock which means less damage to your finger tips.
However this also means holds on easy routes get polished.
I guess you need to try climbing on different types of rock to find out what best suits your style.
Roger, thank you so much. I'll chase up that contact.
Jon, I think that's part of my problem. I'm still lying very flat to the walls even when I'm trying to get friction. I do tend to keep my body nice and close so that my centre of gravity's right over my feet. I'm not leaning against the slabs at all. My body's next to them, not on them, but I'm finding it hard to get feet flat to the wall without sticking my bum out and really messing up the centre of gravity placement.
The resin holds are tough but I'm still going for juggy sorts or things that I don't have to crimp or pinch too much. I'm getting tougher further down my fingers, but I still need to protect the tips as much as possible. Anything beyond the first knuckle is fair game though! I'm getting more scrapes on my elbows than my hands though through accidental knocking against holds or sticky out bits of the wall.
Jon, I think that's part of my problem. I'm still lying very flat to the walls even when I'm trying to get friction. I do tend to keep my body nice and close so that my centre of gravity's right over my feet. I'm not leaning against the slabs at all. My body's next to them, not on them, but I'm finding it hard to get feet flat to the wall without sticking my bum out and really messing up the centre of gravity placement.
The resin holds are tough but I'm still going for juggy sorts or things that I don't have to crimp or pinch too much. I'm getting tougher further down my fingers, but I still need to protect the tips as much as possible. Anything beyond the first knuckle is fair game though! I'm getting more scrapes on my elbows than my hands though through accidental knocking against holds or sticky out bits of the wall.
In reply to carly87:
Can't really add much but I'm reading the thread with interest. I took my mum climbing and she loved it (has age related macular degeneration; is completely blind in her left eye but has some peripheral vision in her right).
Like you say and others, the key is communication. I kept shouting up where the holds were for her feet and she could feel around for the hand holds. I have never seen her as happy as when she got to the top of a route. I will take her back once her broken arm has healed.
Can't really add much but I'm reading the thread with interest. I took my mum climbing and she loved it (has age related macular degeneration; is completely blind in her left eye but has some peripheral vision in her right).
Like you say and others, the key is communication. I kept shouting up where the holds were for her feet and she could feel around for the hand holds. I have never seen her as happy as when she got to the top of a route. I will take her back once her broken arm has healed.
In reply to carly87:
Hi Carly, I have no direct experience of climbing with a visual impairment, but I went to a talk by Andy Kirkpatrick last year who discussed climbing El Cap with a man who was nearly blind, I think his name is Steve Bates. Apparently he managed to make a solo ascent as well, so it must be possible to climb serious things with limited vision.
I couldn't find a contact email through a quick google search, but one might turn up. Otherwise, you could try emailing Andy K, who might be able to put you in touch with him.
Best of luck!
Hi Carly, I have no direct experience of climbing with a visual impairment, but I went to a talk by Andy Kirkpatrick last year who discussed climbing El Cap with a man who was nearly blind, I think his name is Steve Bates. Apparently he managed to make a solo ascent as well, so it must be possible to climb serious things with limited vision.
I couldn't find a contact email through a quick google search, but one might turn up. Otherwise, you could try emailing Andy K, who might be able to put you in touch with him.
Best of luck!
In reply to carly87:
Ah but that in itself is a problem. If you are too close to a vertical wall you can't move your feet to step up as your knees are against the rock. You need the confidence to lean out from it to give you feet/legs room. That confidence will come with:
Time and an understanding of the problem.
Increasing strength in arms/fingers.
Lots of encouragement from a partner that you trust.
> I do tend to keep my body nice and close so that my centre of gravity's right over my feet.
Ah but that in itself is a problem. If you are too close to a vertical wall you can't move your feet to step up as your knees are against the rock. You need the confidence to lean out from it to give you feet/legs room. That confidence will come with:
Time and an understanding of the problem.
Increasing strength in arms/fingers.
Lots of encouragement from a partner that you trust.
Post edited at 12:17
In reply to carly87:
Carly,
I hope this doesn't sound dumb, but have you tried attaching small, cheap bells to the quickdraws, so that as the rope moves up it jangles the bells, giving you an idea of where the next bit of gear is to take out? Won't help with specific holds but might help with general direction.
When I say 'bell' I really mean one of those rattly things like a thin metal sphere with a pellet inside them, like those that hang off cat collars etc. They would be cheap and you could attach one to each quickdraw.
I say this because although I've never climbed with anyone blind, I did guide a blind man in Antarctica (Miles Hilton-Barber) who was trying to ski to the South Pole in 2000-2001. He had climbed Kilimanjaro with a friend, attached to him by a bungee cord (to his friend's rucsac). I think they also had a small bell on the rucsac to give general direction. We discussed both these methods but, in the end, Miles was able to follow me and the other guide, and his friend, by listening to the drag of the sled across the ice.
He tended to ski with one ear cocked toward the sound, which looked a bit odd, but worked well. Unfortunately in high winds he could not hear as well and used to veer off in huge great bloody arcs out across the ice and I'd have to double-speed ski off after him shouting into the wind. Radio headsets would have been much better
Carly,
I hope this doesn't sound dumb, but have you tried attaching small, cheap bells to the quickdraws, so that as the rope moves up it jangles the bells, giving you an idea of where the next bit of gear is to take out? Won't help with specific holds but might help with general direction.
When I say 'bell' I really mean one of those rattly things like a thin metal sphere with a pellet inside them, like those that hang off cat collars etc. They would be cheap and you could attach one to each quickdraw.
I say this because although I've never climbed with anyone blind, I did guide a blind man in Antarctica (Miles Hilton-Barber) who was trying to ski to the South Pole in 2000-2001. He had climbed Kilimanjaro with a friend, attached to him by a bungee cord (to his friend's rucsac). I think they also had a small bell on the rucsac to give general direction. We discussed both these methods but, in the end, Miles was able to follow me and the other guide, and his friend, by listening to the drag of the sled across the ice.
He tended to ski with one ear cocked toward the sound, which looked a bit odd, but worked well. Unfortunately in high winds he could not hear as well and used to veer off in huge great bloody arcs out across the ice and I'd have to double-speed ski off after him shouting into the wind. Radio headsets would have been much better
In reply to carly87:
Carly. I've mentioned this thread to a few colleagues - though linked to the BMC they are fairly light on their feet You may be getting a post or PM from one of the guys working with the British paraclimbing team. There ARE projects out there dealing with just this issue and I do know of at least one UK climber who is blind who is starting to lead trad.
At Mountain Training we are also currently looking at the possibility of a blind climber undertaking their Climbing Wall Award. A while ago I had a discussion with a blind person who wanted to do their Mountain Leader Award. I asked how he would cope with the navigation side of things and he assured me he had been OK kayaking around Britain!
Andy
> Hi Steve
> Any contacts you have would be great, but I think I'm after either experienced blind climbers or those very experienced at instructing good blind climbers. Many blind folk who climb tend to go no further than the sort of level you'd get to in a wall taster session, and I definitely want to do more than that. Well, I already am.
> I can understand the difficulties with the BMC. I think they probably come with any big organisation and a lot has to be attributed to size. Hopefully if I develop something they'll take it on.
Carly. I've mentioned this thread to a few colleagues - though linked to the BMC they are fairly light on their feet You may be getting a post or PM from one of the guys working with the British paraclimbing team. There ARE projects out there dealing with just this issue and I do know of at least one UK climber who is blind who is starting to lead trad.
At Mountain Training we are also currently looking at the possibility of a blind climber undertaking their Climbing Wall Award. A while ago I had a discussion with a blind person who wanted to do their Mountain Leader Award. I asked how he would cope with the navigation side of things and he assured me he had been OK kayaking around Britain!
Andy
In reply to jon:
This, I guess, is why the crag in Arco (Baone) has been chosen for development. Its essentially a steep slab (quite steep in places!) where once you have your handholds sorted you can manage with smearing.
This, I guess, is why the crag in Arco (Baone) has been chosen for development. Its essentially a steep slab (quite steep in places!) where once you have your handholds sorted you can manage with smearing.
Hi folks
Sorry for the late reply but I've had a mega busy weekend and my feet are only now touching thr ground again! Sorry if I've missed any replies.
Flour, sport climbs would be fun. I think you're right though. i do need to just get out there and do it to work out what I like.
Linda, that's lovely that you managed to get your mum to the top! I'm starting to develop a system with my regular climbing partner so that I can plan my moves better before I make them. It's been hard to work out efficient communication but I think we're getting there.
Adam, thank you very much for this. I'll try and find that address.
Jon, I'm tending to step up with the side of my foot rather than going on the front of my toes at the moment as then I can use my body to feel for the next hold rather than having to let go all the time. Do you think I should change that?
Hi Damo. Wow, that description did make me laugh! I've been there myself, merrily trundling off in the wrong direction (thankfully not on skis in the Antarctica!) while someone else tried frantically to catch up with me! I haven't tried the bells, no, but I reckon that's another great idea! They wouldn't add too much weight to a rack either. Thank you!
Andy, that's fab! So far I've had no contact but I look forward to it coming! The fact that you know of someone who's beginning to lead fills me with hope. That's the thing I'm really worried about as it's so, so risky for anyone, never mind someone who can't anticipate which direction to head in to find a good spot for gear placement!
Sorry for the late reply but I've had a mega busy weekend and my feet are only now touching thr ground again! Sorry if I've missed any replies.
Flour, sport climbs would be fun. I think you're right though. i do need to just get out there and do it to work out what I like.
Linda, that's lovely that you managed to get your mum to the top! I'm starting to develop a system with my regular climbing partner so that I can plan my moves better before I make them. It's been hard to work out efficient communication but I think we're getting there.
Adam, thank you very much for this. I'll try and find that address.
Jon, I'm tending to step up with the side of my foot rather than going on the front of my toes at the moment as then I can use my body to feel for the next hold rather than having to let go all the time. Do you think I should change that?
Hi Damo. Wow, that description did make me laugh! I've been there myself, merrily trundling off in the wrong direction (thankfully not on skis in the Antarctica!) while someone else tried frantically to catch up with me! I haven't tried the bells, no, but I reckon that's another great idea! They wouldn't add too much weight to a rack either. Thank you!
Andy, that's fab! So far I've had no contact but I look forward to it coming! The fact that you know of someone who's beginning to lead fills me with hope. That's the thing I'm really worried about as it's so, so risky for anyone, never mind someone who can't anticipate which direction to head in to find a good spot for gear placement!
In reply to carly87:
Hi carly 87,
As a weird climber and instructor I use blindfolds on my clients to help them with climbing by feel and balance. and with a little team work get them doing single colors without sight.
As a climber I often night climb and when seconding like to turn off the head torch. It really helps to feel the movement without all the visual noise. This assisted my climbing massively but Its taught me a few things... Following natural crack lines is sometimes easier than indoor climbing as there is only one route and not a multitude of holds. By working on feel you can trust your feet and sometimes achieve more.
Communication with your partner is important to know how soon you should place gear as its easy to forget when you can not see the ground as a reference for height.
Learn to reverse moves just in case you cant find the next sequence is useful.
I think with good route choice and a steady progression of experience you could easily become a good trad climber.
suggest to your husband to try leading/seconding a route he knows well with out his sight and he'll see how easy and fun it can be.
Good luck with your adventures.
Luke
Hi carly 87,
As a weird climber and instructor I use blindfolds on my clients to help them with climbing by feel and balance. and with a little team work get them doing single colors without sight.
As a climber I often night climb and when seconding like to turn off the head torch. It really helps to feel the movement without all the visual noise. This assisted my climbing massively but Its taught me a few things... Following natural crack lines is sometimes easier than indoor climbing as there is only one route and not a multitude of holds. By working on feel you can trust your feet and sometimes achieve more.
Communication with your partner is important to know how soon you should place gear as its easy to forget when you can not see the ground as a reference for height.
Learn to reverse moves just in case you cant find the next sequence is useful.
I think with good route choice and a steady progression of experience you could easily become a good trad climber.
suggest to your husband to try leading/seconding a route he knows well with out his sight and he'll see how easy and fun it can be.
Good luck with your adventures.
Luke
In reply to carly87:
p.s as for the calloused fingers, Dint forget to moisturize post climbing... file down thick skin and try not to over use chalk.
Like I say I'm a weird climber and actually like to have soft skin and I use chalk very little. there is a thin balance between being able to feel the hold and use it versus just being strong enough to pull through the pain.
p.s as for the calloused fingers, Dint forget to moisturize post climbing... file down thick skin and try not to over use chalk.
Like I say I'm a weird climber and actually like to have soft skin and I use chalk very little. there is a thin balance between being able to feel the hold and use it versus just being strong enough to pull through the pain.
In reply to Lukem6:
Hi Luke
Thank you very much for this. Interesting that you choose to climb blind. Do you do the full trad routes in the dark? I.e gear placement and the whole lot? Do you always do this with your partner giving lots of feedback? Are there only the two of you climbing? Do you climb on single or double ropes? Glad to hear this advice about the chalk. I absolutely hate the stuff and rarely if ever use it on the walls. My hands don't tend to clam up a lot, so grip is pretty good. Yep, I plan to moisturise like mad!
Hi Luke
Thank you very much for this. Interesting that you choose to climb blind. Do you do the full trad routes in the dark? I.e gear placement and the whole lot? Do you always do this with your partner giving lots of feedback? Are there only the two of you climbing? Do you climb on single or double ropes? Glad to hear this advice about the chalk. I absolutely hate the stuff and rarely if ever use it on the walls. My hands don't tend to clam up a lot, so grip is pretty good. Yep, I plan to moisturise like mad!
In reply to carly87:
Very curious how you "see" a video?
> I saw the video you're talking about on Youtube, and it changed my mind from thinking it wouldn't ever be safe for me to lead to, "Hey, I might be able to do this!"
Very curious how you "see" a video?
In reply to Robyn Vacher:
Audio description.
A friend can do it for you, it doesn't have to be on the soundtrack
Audio description.
A friend can do it for you, it doesn't have to be on the soundtrack
In reply to carly87:
I enjoy the adventure of climbing and on regular routes I am willing to climb fully in the dark. I do climb a little below my limit in this scenario, but yes I enjoy placing gear on feel it really helped my normal grade shoot up. For me it was additional training and a way of enjoying routes I knew well although I have tried it "onsight" although much scarier and makes the climbing slower. but maybe I need more practice.
Placing gear when crack climbing is usually straight forward. My middle finger is equivalent to a size 6 nut. a standard hand jam is a number 2 dragon cam and a fist is a number 5 dragon cam or size 4 Torque nut.. so I place gear where my hand just was.
Leading away from obvious cracks requires feedback from someone who has done the route, which can also be helpful seconding.
When feeling the wall remember the edges that were to small for your hands but could be perfect for your feet. Becoming aware not just of the space around you but imagining the rock that you have moved up to so you can find your feet will be vital and take practice.
I climb with single or double ropes depending on the route.
At froggatt edge try Gamma, its very easy to find the moves in the dark and the routes either side of it are very good although Allens Slab was a little exciting as gear is spaced before the traverse and after the traverse the small friction based foot best located by moving a hand down and feeling the wall, when you've found it place your foot and step up high.
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
Luke
p.s you have an email
I enjoy the adventure of climbing and on regular routes I am willing to climb fully in the dark. I do climb a little below my limit in this scenario, but yes I enjoy placing gear on feel it really helped my normal grade shoot up. For me it was additional training and a way of enjoying routes I knew well although I have tried it "onsight" although much scarier and makes the climbing slower. but maybe I need more practice.
Placing gear when crack climbing is usually straight forward. My middle finger is equivalent to a size 6 nut. a standard hand jam is a number 2 dragon cam and a fist is a number 5 dragon cam or size 4 Torque nut.. so I place gear where my hand just was.
Leading away from obvious cracks requires feedback from someone who has done the route, which can also be helpful seconding.
When feeling the wall remember the edges that were to small for your hands but could be perfect for your feet. Becoming aware not just of the space around you but imagining the rock that you have moved up to so you can find your feet will be vital and take practice.
I climb with single or double ropes depending on the route.
At froggatt edge try Gamma, its very easy to find the moves in the dark and the routes either side of it are very good although Allens Slab was a little exciting as gear is spaced before the traverse and after the traverse the small friction based foot best located by moving a hand down and feeling the wall, when you've found it place your foot and step up high.
Hope this helps.
Kind regards
Luke
p.s you have an email
Post edited at 22:25
In reply to carly87:
If you want to do longer stuff, i.e. multi pitch, then consider belaying with a grigri and climbing in a three. This should solve most problems, and will allow you to have someone near you at all times until you are comfortable with the situation.
All the best.
D
If you want to do longer stuff, i.e. multi pitch, then consider belaying with a grigri and climbing in a three. This should solve most problems, and will allow you to have someone near you at all times until you are comfortable with the situation.
All the best.
D
In reply to carly87:
Hello Carly. I'm not sure what type of outdoor climbing you're looking to get into, do you have a particular ambition to get into traditional climbing or is it bolted sport routes you're thinking about?
As has been suggested, motorcycle radio headsets will help with clear communication, shouting rarely works once the wind gets involved. A lot of crags are very rough underfoot at the base and on approach which you may or may not have trouble with. That said, there are lots of crags that are very accessible, it's just something worth bearing in mind.
Some routes, particularly slabs where you have time to feel around for holds I think you'd be able to climb from the ground up with or without a spotter to help you find the holds. With a bit of thought as to what gear gets placed, avoiding very fiddly bits I don't suppose you'd have much trouble taking the gear or quick draws out once you were familiar with the action so you could follow a partner who was leading.
I'm not sure how practical or safe it would be placing gear blind. It's something that with a spotter alongside to help you could probably do but the risk of missing things like expanding bendy flakes, cracks around placements etc would put me off. That's something you and trusted friends will have to work on and think about if it's something you want to do.
On a lot of routes it would be possible to have someone climb a rope beside you to help with route finding. I think the biggest issue you'll have in general once you know which way you're going is placing your feet securely, our hands are excellent at reading shapes and surfaces but footholds on even quite easy outdoor routes can be subtle and hard to find even with sight to guide us, doing it by touch would add a lot of difficulty.
If you want to learn to lead then indoors is probably the most controlled environment. You mention your memory for routes and sequences isn't great but if you can improve that with practice then I think you'll find red pointing, climbing a well practiced route you've learned bit by bit is where you would be most evenly matched to a sighted climber, once you've learned the moves well it's a well rehearsed physical performance, sight might help guide your feet to the holds more accurately but I bet it's not actually as necessary as it might seem.
To get onto bigger routes outdoors I'd suggest climbing with competent friends in a group of three at least until you're comfortable with the procedure, problems and solutions. It's more fun anyway having some company at the belay. With the right rope work two of you could climb close together and tackle more complex lines that you may struggle to navigate alone especially when out of sight of your belayer. Bear in mind you'll have to get down, crag tops and descents could be as difficult to navigate as the routes themselves.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
Hello Carly. I'm not sure what type of outdoor climbing you're looking to get into, do you have a particular ambition to get into traditional climbing or is it bolted sport routes you're thinking about?
As has been suggested, motorcycle radio headsets will help with clear communication, shouting rarely works once the wind gets involved. A lot of crags are very rough underfoot at the base and on approach which you may or may not have trouble with. That said, there are lots of crags that are very accessible, it's just something worth bearing in mind.
Some routes, particularly slabs where you have time to feel around for holds I think you'd be able to climb from the ground up with or without a spotter to help you find the holds. With a bit of thought as to what gear gets placed, avoiding very fiddly bits I don't suppose you'd have much trouble taking the gear or quick draws out once you were familiar with the action so you could follow a partner who was leading.
I'm not sure how practical or safe it would be placing gear blind. It's something that with a spotter alongside to help you could probably do but the risk of missing things like expanding bendy flakes, cracks around placements etc would put me off. That's something you and trusted friends will have to work on and think about if it's something you want to do.
On a lot of routes it would be possible to have someone climb a rope beside you to help with route finding. I think the biggest issue you'll have in general once you know which way you're going is placing your feet securely, our hands are excellent at reading shapes and surfaces but footholds on even quite easy outdoor routes can be subtle and hard to find even with sight to guide us, doing it by touch would add a lot of difficulty.
If you want to learn to lead then indoors is probably the most controlled environment. You mention your memory for routes and sequences isn't great but if you can improve that with practice then I think you'll find red pointing, climbing a well practiced route you've learned bit by bit is where you would be most evenly matched to a sighted climber, once you've learned the moves well it's a well rehearsed physical performance, sight might help guide your feet to the holds more accurately but I bet it's not actually as necessary as it might seem.
To get onto bigger routes outdoors I'd suggest climbing with competent friends in a group of three at least until you're comfortable with the procedure, problems and solutions. It's more fun anyway having some company at the belay. With the right rope work two of you could climb close together and tackle more complex lines that you may struggle to navigate alone especially when out of sight of your belayer. Bear in mind you'll have to get down, crag tops and descents could be as difficult to navigate as the routes themselves.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
In reply to jkarran:
Hi there folks
Apologies that it's been such a long while since I've commented on this thread, but I've had trouble logging in for some reason. I didn't have much to report anyway until recently.
Well, I did my first climb outdoors over the weekend and it was... Well... Interesting. It happened quite by chance with little planning. I ended up climbing Ivy Scar on the Malverns and didn't think it would be too difficult as it's only a little climb and could be top roped. Boy was I wrong!
I found the whole thing difficult from start to finish. I'd been warned that it was a grotty climb, and that was certainly right. I really struggled with a few things. Following the contours of the wall was difficult. When I got to a bit that sloped in, I really struggled to go from this to the sloping out bit again (hope that makes sense) and found I was really using the ropes so I could lean back and get my feet up onto the sticky out bit.
I could find plenty of holds, but if I used them, the rock would cut my fingers so I found myself compromising, meaning that the climb was made even more difficult than it needed to be.
I learned just how much I rely on the pull of my top rope (a guiding pull, not a "haul you up" pull) to orient me in terms of which direction I'm going. The pull on this climb was very slightly off centre by necessity (anchor points were limited) and this threw me a lot. I knew I still had to go up, but really wanted to follow the rope so that I knew where I was in space.
I took a small swing off the wall. I managed to twist so that my back was to the rock so that when I hit, it was my back stopping me, not my face. At the time I was a little shellshocked but started climbing again straight away, but the more I think about it, the more it worries me.You guys will anticipate the trajectory and direction of the swing and will put hands and feet out to brace against the wall and stop the swing, but how do you do this if you can't see where the wall is, what's coming at you and where, and when/where you'll hit it? I'll admit that this gave me nightmares for a couple of nights as the outcome could have been far worse than the bruised shoulder and cut elbow that I got.
I don't want to be confined to wall climbing, but this has really made me re-evaluate how easy outdoor climbing is actually going to be. I know I wasn't using radio headsets etc, but it's such a small climb and the day was so calm that they weren't needed. And I had a spotter on the ground shouting up ideas for foot holds etc.
Not really expecting you guys to come up with miracle solutions. I'm writing this more to let you know how the progress is and where I am at the moment. I have a video if anyone would like to see, but you'll need to contact me privately for that as it's really long and I don't know how to post it here.
Hi there folks
Apologies that it's been such a long while since I've commented on this thread, but I've had trouble logging in for some reason. I didn't have much to report anyway until recently.
Well, I did my first climb outdoors over the weekend and it was... Well... Interesting. It happened quite by chance with little planning. I ended up climbing Ivy Scar on the Malverns and didn't think it would be too difficult as it's only a little climb and could be top roped. Boy was I wrong!
I found the whole thing difficult from start to finish. I'd been warned that it was a grotty climb, and that was certainly right. I really struggled with a few things. Following the contours of the wall was difficult. When I got to a bit that sloped in, I really struggled to go from this to the sloping out bit again (hope that makes sense) and found I was really using the ropes so I could lean back and get my feet up onto the sticky out bit.
I could find plenty of holds, but if I used them, the rock would cut my fingers so I found myself compromising, meaning that the climb was made even more difficult than it needed to be.
I learned just how much I rely on the pull of my top rope (a guiding pull, not a "haul you up" pull) to orient me in terms of which direction I'm going. The pull on this climb was very slightly off centre by necessity (anchor points were limited) and this threw me a lot. I knew I still had to go up, but really wanted to follow the rope so that I knew where I was in space.
I took a small swing off the wall. I managed to twist so that my back was to the rock so that when I hit, it was my back stopping me, not my face. At the time I was a little shellshocked but started climbing again straight away, but the more I think about it, the more it worries me.You guys will anticipate the trajectory and direction of the swing and will put hands and feet out to brace against the wall and stop the swing, but how do you do this if you can't see where the wall is, what's coming at you and where, and when/where you'll hit it? I'll admit that this gave me nightmares for a couple of nights as the outcome could have been far worse than the bruised shoulder and cut elbow that I got.
I don't want to be confined to wall climbing, but this has really made me re-evaluate how easy outdoor climbing is actually going to be. I know I wasn't using radio headsets etc, but it's such a small climb and the day was so calm that they weren't needed. And I had a spotter on the ground shouting up ideas for foot holds etc.
Not really expecting you guys to come up with miracle solutions. I'm writing this more to let you know how the progress is and where I am at the moment. I have a video if anyone would like to see, but you'll need to contact me privately for that as it's really long and I don't know how to post it here.
1
In reply to carly87:
A friend of mine is blind and has really taken to climbing, doing charity climbs and lots of other stuff, I could put you in touch with her if you like? I am sure she would be happy to talk about it.
A friend of mine is blind and has really taken to climbing, doing charity climbs and lots of other stuff, I could put you in touch with her if you like? I am sure she would be happy to talk about it.
In reply to carly87:
It sounds to me like you need to choose what you climb and as a novice that boils down to who you climb with very carefully. They're making a lot of your safety decisions for you. Climbing with friends is great but make sure they're experienced enough to exercise good judgement in what you're doing because it's different from climbing with another climber.
There are lots of routes out there that are simple safe shapes, smooth slabs and clean corners where if you fall on top rope nothing bad will happen. There are many more that have some extra element like a little traverse that might seem trivial to an experienced climber but that will make your job much harder and could hurt you.
For extra security you could try using two ropes, one from above to guide you and one from above but off to one side to help you control any swing if you fall. Obviously a helmet is a good idea given the possibility of bumping your head is increased if you can't see the rock to avoid it. Some winter helmets come with a visor for the face or a mountain bike helmet might provide more reassurance.
Hope you give it another go somewhere more suitable and enjoyable.
It sounds to me like you need to choose what you climb and as a novice that boils down to who you climb with very carefully. They're making a lot of your safety decisions for you. Climbing with friends is great but make sure they're experienced enough to exercise good judgement in what you're doing because it's different from climbing with another climber.
There are lots of routes out there that are simple safe shapes, smooth slabs and clean corners where if you fall on top rope nothing bad will happen. There are many more that have some extra element like a little traverse that might seem trivial to an experienced climber but that will make your job much harder and could hurt you.
For extra security you could try using two ropes, one from above to guide you and one from above but off to one side to help you control any swing if you fall. Obviously a helmet is a good idea given the possibility of bumping your head is increased if you can't see the rock to avoid it. Some winter helmets come with a visor for the face or a mountain bike helmet might provide more reassurance.
Hope you give it another go somewhere more suitable and enjoyable.
In reply to carly87:
Congrats on getting out there and giving it a go. falling blind sounds scary. If you stick to consistent lines will it help you know what to expect if you fall? Just to add to the headset idea you could try a go pro live stream to a mobile
Congrats on getting out there and giving it a go. falling blind sounds scary. If you stick to consistent lines will it help you know what to expect if you fall? Just to add to the headset idea you could try a go pro live stream to a mobile
In reply to carly87:
I was lucky enough to watch a very inspirational presentation from a Japanese climber who is completely blind, and his climbing partner, at the Kalymnos Climbing festival a couple of years ago.
He worked really closely with his climbing partner, through a system of verbal commands and codes that they had developed. I Can't remember the codes/system in detail but it was based on what type the next handhold was (e.g. jug, crimp, sloper) what distance away it was, and what direction it was (I think they used a "clock" system to narrow it down). I think they must have used the same system for locating footholds.
The teamwork between the two was really amazing, and the blind climber had climbed up to 7b!!! Probably one of the most inspiring things I've ever seen or heard of!
Good luck and enjoy it!
Gus
I was lucky enough to watch a very inspirational presentation from a Japanese climber who is completely blind, and his climbing partner, at the Kalymnos Climbing festival a couple of years ago.
He worked really closely with his climbing partner, through a system of verbal commands and codes that they had developed. I Can't remember the codes/system in detail but it was based on what type the next handhold was (e.g. jug, crimp, sloper) what distance away it was, and what direction it was (I think they used a "clock" system to narrow it down). I think they must have used the same system for locating footholds.
The teamwork between the two was really amazing, and the blind climber had climbed up to 7b!!! Probably one of the most inspiring things I've ever seen or heard of!
Good luck and enjoy it!
Gus
Cfer, thank you so much for the offer. I'd love to be put in touch with her. I think that would help a lot.
JKarran, I will definitely give it another go. Thanks to over-thinking my swing I am now terrified, but I'm not going to let it put me off and will conquer my fears as soon as I can get back out. It's going to be a couple of weeks before I can, but I'm determined not to let this beat me, and have already decided that I'm going to return to the horrible Ivy Scar once I'm a lot more confident outdoors, just to face it down and put it to rest in my own head.
I do agree that climbs need to be thought out a bit more, and so does my climbing budd. To be honest, this was a spurr of the moment thing and both of us put better judgement on hold because we were so keen to give outdoor climbing a go with me. He did warn me that it was very grotty, but being green and still in the glammour of the idea of climbing, I pushed for it anyway. I'm going helmet shopping very soon and won't be climbing again without one. I came very close to hitting my head and don't want to take that risk again.
How do you see the two rope system working? Would I need 2 to belay on a top roped climb so that each had control of one of the ropes?
Trouserburp, great name! What do you mean by consistent lines? Do you mean working a route a couple of times in the same line so I know what to expect? I suspect that would help and I've actually thought that I should probably be lowered off the top and walk down it so that I can feel what's coming with my feet before I try and climb so that I know what to expect. Can you tell me more about the GoPro?
Gus, my climbing budd and I are still working out the system we'll use and he's really good at pointing out holds to me, but he was belaying on the top, so couldn't always see my feet. He still gives me credit for having more strength than I actually do, so I don't think he was expecting me to swing like I did as if I'd pulled up propperly, I wouldn't have.
JKarran, I will definitely give it another go. Thanks to over-thinking my swing I am now terrified, but I'm not going to let it put me off and will conquer my fears as soon as I can get back out. It's going to be a couple of weeks before I can, but I'm determined not to let this beat me, and have already decided that I'm going to return to the horrible Ivy Scar once I'm a lot more confident outdoors, just to face it down and put it to rest in my own head.
I do agree that climbs need to be thought out a bit more, and so does my climbing budd. To be honest, this was a spurr of the moment thing and both of us put better judgement on hold because we were so keen to give outdoor climbing a go with me. He did warn me that it was very grotty, but being green and still in the glammour of the idea of climbing, I pushed for it anyway. I'm going helmet shopping very soon and won't be climbing again without one. I came very close to hitting my head and don't want to take that risk again.
How do you see the two rope system working? Would I need 2 to belay on a top roped climb so that each had control of one of the ropes?
Trouserburp, great name! What do you mean by consistent lines? Do you mean working a route a couple of times in the same line so I know what to expect? I suspect that would help and I've actually thought that I should probably be lowered off the top and walk down it so that I can feel what's coming with my feet before I try and climb so that I know what to expect. Can you tell me more about the GoPro?
Gus, my climbing budd and I are still working out the system we'll use and he's really good at pointing out holds to me, but he was belaying on the top, so couldn't always see my feet. He still gives me credit for having more strength than I actually do, so I don't think he was expecting me to swing like I did as if I'd pulled up propperly, I wouldn't have.
In reply to carly87:
Two ropes can be handled by one belayer or two, it depends exactly how you set them up but having a second rope running slightly off to one side (sometimes referred to colloquially as a baby bouncer) really helps to control a fall especially where there is potential for a swing.
Setting them up as bottom ropes (controlled from the floor) would probably be the best as you can be lowered down single-belayer control is easier.
Two ropes can be handled by one belayer or two, it depends exactly how you set them up but having a second rope running slightly off to one side (sometimes referred to colloquially as a baby bouncer) really helps to control a fall especially where there is potential for a swing.
Setting them up as bottom ropes (controlled from the floor) would probably be the best as you can be lowered down single-belayer control is easier.
Hi Carly. My friend sent me the link to your thread. My name is John churcher, i am a member if the GB Paraclimbing team. I have 3% vision and wear 2 hearing aids. I climb indoors and out, i do sport route and trad, i also lead trad routes. Like some other people have said its down to your caller what routes they think you can do easy to start with then harder as you get better. I use a radio mic to hear what my caller is saying, have just purchased walkie talkies with VOX(voice activated) yet to try out on wall but works well at home. As for placing gear i just feel with my fingers, might take a couple of attempts to get the right piece. Where are you based? i am in west midlands. have a look at my website it tells you what i have been up to, www.johnchurcherparaclimber.com or drop me a line at jcchurcher@gmail.com. not sure if my rambling make sense but hope it helps you in knowing theres no reason not to.carry on. I'd like to see the video. john.
In reply to carly87:
No problem, if you could pm me your email address I will pass it on and I'm sure she will be very happy to chat
No problem, if you could pm me your email address I will pass it on and I'm sure she will be very happy to chat
In reply to carly87:
Hi Carly
You post has generated a lot of interest both in views and replies which is good to see
There is a small community of blind climbers developing in the UK. Where you live obviously affects this but i think it would be good to make contact with them. John Churcher who wrote on your post would be good to get in touch with. Because of John's place on the GB team his training is highly developed plus he gets to meet blind climbers from all over the world.The same applies to Andy Coltart from Onthisroc in Liverpool. Andy is the President of the International Federation of Sports Climbing (IFSC) paraclimbing commission. John also has Mark McGowan coaching him. Mark is a former GB climbing team member. Mark has contact with Gwyn is blind and is a former GB team member and a very accomplished outdoor climber . I know that you aren't necessarily looking at competition but because of the pace that competitions are moving at research and development has to keep up with it. In my own personal work the thing that comes through as the strongest development is a good sight guider and good communication which is often through a head set radio. This contradicts what the Japanese team do who shout from floor level but in principle it is the same...an excellent sight guider who knows the climb and the climber and a clear set of instructions.
Graeme Hill GB paraclimbing team manager.
Hi Carly
You post has generated a lot of interest both in views and replies which is good to see
There is a small community of blind climbers developing in the UK. Where you live obviously affects this but i think it would be good to make contact with them. John Churcher who wrote on your post would be good to get in touch with. Because of John's place on the GB team his training is highly developed plus he gets to meet blind climbers from all over the world.The same applies to Andy Coltart from Onthisroc in Liverpool. Andy is the President of the International Federation of Sports Climbing (IFSC) paraclimbing commission. John also has Mark McGowan coaching him. Mark is a former GB climbing team member. Mark has contact with Gwyn is blind and is a former GB team member and a very accomplished outdoor climber . I know that you aren't necessarily looking at competition but because of the pace that competitions are moving at research and development has to keep up with it. In my own personal work the thing that comes through as the strongest development is a good sight guider and good communication which is often through a head set radio. This contradicts what the Japanese team do who shout from floor level but in principle it is the same...an excellent sight guider who knows the climb and the climber and a clear set of instructions.
Graeme Hill GB paraclimbing team manager.
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