UKC

Thinking of investing in leashless set up. Anyone recommend the BD Vipers?

In reply to nicjbuk:
Yes great for everything

In reply to nicjbuk:

Just bought Vipers as my first pair, & spent 4 days enjoying them on Great End classics. Did all that was required, & the price was very good indeed. Nik

In reply to nicjbuk:
Nomics are better all rounders but depends how hard you want to climb. Vipers are fine up to V, beyond that Nomics really come into their own with the more aggressive handle and shape.

In reply to Misha:

Nomics are surely anything but all rounders! Vipers fit that description far better, and can certainly be used on a lot harder stuff than V.

In reply to Misha:
Piffle.

In reply to nicjbuk:

IMO Quarks have a far nicer balance to them and fit similarly into the "all rounder" category. Personally I find all the BD tools handle heavy, so I'd advie going and giving some a swing.

Misha - ever used Nomics on a snow slope? Far from an all rounder. Great on the steep, not on the less-steep.

In reply to nicjbuk:
I have a pair of vipers and nomics. I use the nomics for everything now. Much prefer them......even on a snow slope. I will keep the vipers as a spare set and I have led grade 6 mixed and ice with them. But the nomics would have made that same grade 6 feel much easier and safer.

In reply to nicjbuk:

it all depends on intended use....

if pure ice and wandering into mixed territory is the norm, get the more aggressive tools

if alpine/mountaineering with ice -- get the less aggressive tools

demo as many pairs as possible, and one (or more) will just feel right. ive had this happen twice and, surprise, i own both sets

In reply to nicjbuk:

Aye - I can certainly recommend vipers. A great all round technical axe, though other ergo handled axes do start to pass them on really steep / technical terrain. I'd happily wager though that they will never be the thing thats holding you back....

I wouldn't describe nomics etc as all rounders as they really aren't as good on less steep / technical ground, and a LOT weaker if you need to use them as anchors after topping out or on easier ground after steep terrain.

I climb with vipers leashless most of the time (steeper ice etc I tend to wear leashes as I'm horribly weak) and really can't fault them.

Though you should, if possible, try swinging a few contenders about - I much preffered vipers (but I was replacing a set of Rage axes....) to quarks or grivel axes when I tried them, but other folk will rave about how much better quarks felt to them for example. It'll very much depend on you which axe is the best......

Cheers!

Stu

In reply to Michael Gordon:
Ok I meant all rounders as in good for both ice and mixed on technical ground. Obviously they aren't great or necessary for grade I gullies but I'm assuming that the OP is after a technical pair.

I've used Cobras for years but have just started using Nomics and think they're better for harder stuff. Hence the recommendation.

In reply to nicjbuk:
Also a lot depends on which axe handle suits your hand dimensions best. So try a few (with gloves on) and see what fits best.

In reply to Misha:
Hi Misha, I agree. The OP is asking for recommendations for an axe for GOING LEASHLESS as opposed to a an all round axe. I too regard the Nomic as a good all round leashless tool, so some of the criticism levelled at you here seems a bit harsh IMHO.

Looking at how Needlesports classify the various different axes on their website, seems like they are as ignorant as we are.....)

In reply to nicjbuk:
It's all personal preference, as an all rounder you can't go wrong with the viper or the quark,

I used to own a set of nomics but for some odd reason I preferred the handle on the viper and never really got on with the nomic so sold them as I never found that they made routes any easier for me, as I said it's all down to personal preference.

As suggested if you can have a swing of a few axes, find the one you feel most comfortable with

In reply to Misha:

Another vote for Nomic's, never had any issues on snow slopes etc. Great balanced axe. I had Vipers but upgraded to Nomic's, never looked back.

In reply to nicjbuk:

Have a look at DMM Apex too. Some good deals going on them as well.

In reply to nicjbuk:

Another vote for Nomics for the steeper ground and water ice, their swing is unbeatable. Although, for an all rounder I'd vote for the Quarks (I have both). Great on snow slopes, great on harder routes too, I've put quarks through tech 6 and had no problem!

In reply to nicjbuk:

Vipers are fine, the question (the gear manufacturers whisper in your ear) is - might there be something even better out there for you? Unless what you really want is a walking axe or something to climb M15, the answer is probably "who cares?"

In reply to nicjbuk:

I was all set to buy some Quarks after swinging a few axes about in the shop. Vipers came up cheap on UKC and I went for them. Never had a problem with them or thought "if only i'd bought Quarks!".

I think the majority of the axes your looking at will all be excellent, pretty much just down to hand size and how big the handles are between different models.

In reply to nicjbuk:

Just to throw my story in here but firstly and mostly important is buy what you think suits your swing and grade.

I've noticed from your climbs logged on here that you climb the same ish winter grade as me so this may be relevant.

I've always thought that the Nomics where the sexiest ice axes around and after swinging some at the Snow factor in Glasgow was hell bent on getting a pair.
I knew they would be a bit too technical for most of my climbing but I was ready to sacrifice that to have them in my hand as they had a much more solid feel than the quarks which I previously owned. Plus they looked the Shnizzle and I could pretend to be a proper climber

For me I realized pretty early on that I might of made a mistake as on the first climb of this season I went to climb Hidden Chimney and as we where soloing up Jacobs Ladder to the start of the climb I began to feel uneasy plunging the nomics into the hard snow, My partner on the other hand was having no problems at all using his quarks. My nomics were bouncing off the hard snow I then changed to daggering and because of the curve on the nomic the pommel was then bouncing off the hard snow. I'm not saying it was dangerous but it definately didn't give me the confidence that my quarks gave me in that situation. The Nomics where great whilst on the lean chimney pitch by the way.
When I got home I started to think when you're as unfit as me, I spend a lot of time on semi steep ground actually getting to the start of a climb and probably that is where I'm at my most vulnerable as I'm not roped up and stuff.

I ended up punting the Nomics as I'm never going to be good enough to use them for what they are intended to do. Yes a lovely looking axe but no for an inexperienced punter like myself.

I'm not saying don't go for the Nomics just saying for me the Vipers / Quarks / Flys / Matrix lights and so on all suit my climbing grade and experience much better.

Ps I am nothing to do with them Vipers are £122 each brand new on the first ascent website.

cheers

Gaz

In reply to nicjbuk:

I'd consider the DMM Apex'es - they're all rounders and I've found them excellent so far for both approaches and climbing.

Also they are £135 each when you buy a pair on needle sports.

I don't have the experience to know the ins and outs of it all and what suits me the best so I didn't want to spend loads of money on something specialist/technical.

Those Vipers are cheap though, but I think you only get a B pick...

I'd choose between them - as someone else said no point in spending loads of money on something technical - unless you're a technical master climbing hard stuff.

In reply to nicjbuk:

I love my Nomics, but they are really for steep ice and mixed. I find it a bit of an effort to make them work on anything less than Water Ice 4 or UK grade 4 tech. Definitely follow the advice in this thread (how often can you say that on UKC!?!):

1.) Swing every axe you possibly can because your axe and arm make up a complex pendulum which is unique to you, so narrow it down to the few types of axe that feel right;

2.) Decide where you want to go with your climbing - and choose the axe that best fits your ambitions.

For what it's worth, if I'm soloing easy stuff, or going up a big mountain where I might have to blast through old, hard ice, place pitons, plunge into cruddy snow, dagger up easy neve, scrabble up rock, put in stomper belays, chop ledges, knock balled-up snow off my crampons, or make a T-axe anchor, I'll pull my old Predators out of retirement and use leashes.

In reply to Stuart Hurworth:

The Viper deal at Needle sports is good as they offer lots of options. As you say B picks are common with the Vipers, but Needle Sports to them with T rated picks and larger hammers etc.
I can't say how them compare to loads of other models, I don't have the experience, but they are a lot better than the Flys I previously had, very nice to use, the pick angle is better and the leashless experience is great with the hand rests. They are certainly tough, some petzl models are maybe not that tough reading these forums.
And as the the hydroformed tubing.....

In reply to nicjbuk:

I used to think that when everybody had Terrors it was quite fair and uncomplicated.

Level playing field and all that.

Don't miss the bruised knuckles, but more annoyed cos it was really my fault

We also had a theory that because things were really too easy with dropped picks it would be fairer if we all had to climb with a six inch nail in each hand.

In reply to iksander:
True but personally I prefer the more ergonomic handle on the Nomics. Having said that, I still like the Cobras (pretty much the same shape as the Vipers but better balance) but a carbon fibre axe isn't a great idea for harder mixed climbing (then again, think Greg Boswell has the carbon fibre Grivel axes). However for steeper stuff the more ergonomic handle of the Nomics is definitely better.

For dry tooling Petzl Ergos are great (basically a more aggressive version of the Nomic) but only worth getting if you do a lot of tooling and don't mind spending the money on a tooling specific axe. I've tried them on ice and on anything less than vertical they were a bit of a pain as they were too aggressive. Nomics seem to be the tool of choice in the tooling community.

As others have said, for easier routes there is no need for Nomics, so if you are looking to climb up to V or may be VI, you'll be fine with Vipers, Apexes or even Quarks.

But above all as people have said choose what suits you in terms of balance and handle size/shape.

In reply to steveshaking:

I was referring to the deal that Gaz mentioned on the First Ascent site... they're cheaper but come with B picks, so once you buy T picks as well it works out about the same or more than the Apex's & Vipers on Needle Sports.

In reply to nicjbuk:

As said by others above it depends on intended usage and how they feel in your hand.

If you're not convinced by the feel or balance of Vipers, Quarks or other usual suspects have a look at Simond Anaconda Cups; great axes, do exactly the same job but lighter and different feel, mine have been brilliant.

This old article could be worth a read
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Top_Picks_Winter_Tools_to_Watch_Out_For_...

Anaconda Cups plus upper hand rests etc. available here
http://walkhigh.co.uk/acatalog/Axes.html

In reply to nicjbuk:

It depends on what type of climbing you're into. I have a pair of Vipers and a pair of Fusions in my quiver. For lower grade routes and Alpine climbing I'd say the Vipers are pretty much perfect. For grade IV and above routes the Fusions really come into their own for me and I have no issues at all plunging them into snow. If I had to keep one pair it would definitely be the Fusions. YMMV.

In reply:

I remember going into T*so on Buchanan St back in the early 90's and asking about ice axes. The guy told me Vertiges were only for up to grade III and I'd need Predators if I was going to climb harder. This was the era where Graeme Ettle was featured on The Edge TV series climbing White Magic (VI or VII) using the very same Vertiges.
Modern Grade VIIIs were climbed using straight shafted tools (ooofff) with leashes so I don't think tools are that critical to your success. Your talent and technique (or lack of will make much more difference).
Going back to the original scenario I ended up with Vertiges and bumbled along with them for many years. I blame them entirely for my sluggish progression through the grades.

In reply to nicjbuk:

I don't think you can be trusted 'off the leash'.

RN

In reply to OllieF:

>I've put quarks through tech 6 and had no problem!

I should hope so ...most tech 6 and 7's were climbed on straight shafted axes decades ago!

In reply to Rick Graham:

>... if we all had to climb with a six inch nail in each hand.

Jesus Christ Rick!

In reply to nicjbuk:

Just noticed the Anaconda Cups and other Simond axes available here

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/F-50661-ice-axe

they're a steal at those prices

In reply to pacman:
Many thanks to all for your input. Lots of good advice. Will narrow it down but I doubt nomics are for me as they don't suit the bulk of my grade range. Apex or vipers may be my choice. Cheers guys and gals.

In reply to nicjbuk:


Or Quarks, they are all highly similar as far as tools go.

Them new fancy Grivel Machine 3.0's might also be an option. Sort of half-way between them ergo-handle tools (like Nomic, Fusion or Switch) and the "normal" tools (what you've listed above). The angle on them is supposed to be rather good for easier ice (WI3 to WI4) and easier grades in general, but the handle still offers the ergo-dealio for harder climbing. Kind of like BD Reactor (which ain't made any more).