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I'm of to Chamonix next week and would like to ski the Vallee Blanche with one other person and preferably without a guide. I know the snowpack has been a bit iffy this year but the general avalanche risk has dropped slightly in the last few days. Just wondering if anybody has any specific info on what's going on up there at the moment, including if anybody's actually doing it at the moment. (Obviously I realise things can change considerably in the next week)
Also, as well as all the avalanche and crevasse rescue kit, do people generally bother with crampons and an axe for the ridge.
And finally, does the person not carrying the rope draw the short straw and go first all the time and ski in a harness "just in case"?
In case it informs your replies I'm a good skier though with relatively little off piste experience but a lot of alpine experience.
Thanks.
Also, as well as all the avalanche and crevasse rescue kit, do people generally bother with crampons and an axe for the ridge.
And finally, does the person not carrying the rope draw the short straw and go first all the time and ski in a harness "just in case"?
In case it informs your replies I'm a good skier though with relatively little off piste experience but a lot of alpine experience.
Thanks.
In reply to pec:
If your so experienced how come your asking so many obvious questions?
If there's just the two of you then you'll need a rope each, because you don't know which of you if any will fall down the hole. Put your crampons on and walk around all the punters slip sliding away in piste boots without crampons, much quicker in the long run.
Not been that way for a while so no idea as to conditions.
If your so experienced how come your asking so many obvious questions?
If there's just the two of you then you'll need a rope each, because you don't know which of you if any will fall down the hole. Put your crampons on and walk around all the punters slip sliding away in piste boots without crampons, much quicker in the long run.
Not been that way for a while so no idea as to conditions.
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In reply to OwenM:
Please re read what I said about my experience more carefully
Thanks for the more useful comments.
> If your so experienced how come your asking so many obvious questions? >
Please re read what I said about my experience more carefully
Thanks for the more useful comments.
In reply to pec:
When the rope/fence is up the ridge is more of a trench than a ridge so no crampons or axe required. Wasn't up three weeks ago but obviously things have changed a lot since then. Call the guides' office?
> I'm of to Chamonix next week and would like to ski the Vallee Blanche with one other person and preferably without a guide. I know the snowpack has been a bit iffy this year but the general avalanche risk has dropped slightly in the last few days. Just wondering if anybody has any specific info on what's going on up there at the moment, including if anybody's actually doing it at the moment. (Obviously I realise things can change considerably in the next week)
> Also, as well as all the avalanche and crevasse rescue kit, do people generally bother with crampons and an axe for the ridge.
When the rope/fence is up the ridge is more of a trench than a ridge so no crampons or axe required. Wasn't up three weeks ago but obviously things have changed a lot since then. Call the guides' office?
In reply to pec:
The person not carrying the rope certainly does draw the short straw, because they have to stay at home.
> And finally, does the person not carrying the rope draw the short straw
The person not carrying the rope certainly does draw the short straw, because they have to stay at home.
In reply to pec:
Unless you are skiing with a guide (who will be better informed to make the decisions over who is going to carry what bits of equipment, some guided groups are taken down the VB carrying relatively little), every single member of the party - especially when you are skiing in a pair - should be carrying at least the very bare minimum of crevasse rescue kit AND the knowledge of how to use it.
This really cannot be emphasised enough this year, after poor snow in November and December has left the crevasse situation up on the VB quite unpredictable. I'm in the UK at the moment and haven't seen first-hand what conditions are like, but I do know that even after a few recent heavy snowfalls, people are still treating it as quite a serious endeavour, and if you aren't 100% certain on your own abilities, you should definitely be thinking about hiring a guide or skiing elsewhere.
For what it's worth, for the last few years I've skied the VB at least once a week on average, and I can count the number of times I've been up there without crampons on one hand, and I've never been up without an axe in my life. You might not need them to walk down the arete, but you might well need them later on. Still, maybe I'm just being a wimp.
Unless you are skiing with a guide (who will be better informed to make the decisions over who is going to carry what bits of equipment, some guided groups are taken down the VB carrying relatively little), every single member of the party - especially when you are skiing in a pair - should be carrying at least the very bare minimum of crevasse rescue kit AND the knowledge of how to use it.
This really cannot be emphasised enough this year, after poor snow in November and December has left the crevasse situation up on the VB quite unpredictable. I'm in the UK at the moment and haven't seen first-hand what conditions are like, but I do know that even after a few recent heavy snowfalls, people are still treating it as quite a serious endeavour, and if you aren't 100% certain on your own abilities, you should definitely be thinking about hiring a guide or skiing elsewhere.
For what it's worth, for the last few years I've skied the VB at least once a week on average, and I can count the number of times I've been up there without crampons on one hand, and I've never been up without an axe in my life. You might not need them to walk down the arete, but you might well need them later on. Still, maybe I'm just being a wimp.
In reply to pec:
If you only have one rope cut it in half and carry half each, wear harnesses with a sling between a krab in your belay loop and a krab the other end attached to your shoulder or chest trap, learn and practice crevice rescue
If you only have one rope cut it in half and carry half each, wear harnesses with a sling between a krab in your belay loop and a krab the other end attached to your shoulder or chest trap, learn and practice crevice rescue
In reply to pec:
Crampons are very useful for the arete, especially if it is windy or icy
Everyone in the group should be wearing a harness "just in case", not much use having one if its not on
> Also, as well as all the avalanche and crevasse rescue kit, do people generally bother with crampons and an axe for the ridge.
Crampons are very useful for the arete, especially if it is windy or icy
> And finally, does the person not carrying the rope draw the short straw and go first all the time and ski in a harness "just in case"?
Everyone in the group should be wearing a harness "just in case", not much use having one if its not on
In reply to random_watcher:
My thoughts too but a lot of people don't seem to wear them in Youtube videos I've looked at which made me wonder what normal practice was and in reality you have to wonder what your chances are if you fall into a crevasse unroped anyway!
> Everyone in the group should be wearing a harness "just in case", not much use having one if its not on >
My thoughts too but a lot of people don't seem to wear them in Youtube videos I've looked at which made me wonder what normal practice was and in reality you have to wonder what your chances are if you fall into a crevasse unroped anyway!
In reply to pec:
How good's your French?
This is from the OHM website published yesterday http://www.chamoniarde.com/?page_id=343
Vallée Blanche : l’arête est équipée d’une corde de part et d’autre de l’arête. Le Z est en préparation (quasiment terminé). Les conditions sont bonnes pour l’instant sur l’itinéraire classique. Les passages des séracs et de la Salle à manger passent correctement en ce moment mais quelques trous ne demandent qu’à s’ouvrir. Le vent fort a «décapé » la partie terminale de la Mer de Glace et les cailloux anguleux affleurent. On peut descendre à Chamonix en skis (attention : quelques pierres apparaissent).
you don't actually need crampons for going down the arete, but it's a lot simpler if you have them
considering there's 2 French school zones on holiday next week, you need to book the phrique in advance & don't wait til Friday
How good's your French?
This is from the OHM website published yesterday http://www.chamoniarde.com/?page_id=343
Vallée Blanche : l’arête est équipée d’une corde de part et d’autre de l’arête. Le Z est en préparation (quasiment terminé). Les conditions sont bonnes pour l’instant sur l’itinéraire classique. Les passages des séracs et de la Salle à manger passent correctement en ce moment mais quelques trous ne demandent qu’à s’ouvrir. Le vent fort a «décapé » la partie terminale de la Mer de Glace et les cailloux anguleux affleurent. On peut descendre à Chamonix en skis (attention : quelques pierres apparaissent).
you don't actually need crampons for going down the arete, but it's a lot simpler if you have them
considering there's 2 French school zones on holiday next week, you need to book the phrique in advance & don't wait til Friday
Post edited at 15:26
Pete Houghton wrote:
> . . . especially when you are skiing in a pair - should be carrying at least the
> bare minimum of crevasse rescue kit AND the knowledge of how to use it.
> bare minimum of crevasse rescue kit AND the knowledge of how to use it.
For a party of two, the "knowledge of how" is highly non-trivial. Beyond "knowledge", both members having recent realistic _practice_ in specific techniques for two-person crevasse rescue . . . I'd guess that's a low percentage of the two-person skiing parties.
So perhaps another important capability is (like with avalanche hazard) to have a useful decision-guiding framework and useful currrent and historic info for deciding which days it's safer to ski which glaciers.
Hint 1: mid-February is not usually one of the safer days on a glacier with known large crevasses.
Hint 2: recent fresh snow with substantial wind during or since the storm is not likely to signal a safer day.
Ken
Post edited at 19:40
pec wrote:
> . . . wonder what normal practice was and in reality you have to wonder
> what your chances are if you fall into a crevasse unroped anyway
> what your chances are if you fall into a crevasse unroped anyway
Turns out that many crevasses in France have a V cross-section profile. So many skiers fall until they reach the narrower level of the V and friction against the sides a bit before they stop. Then they're strongly wedged. So many skiers do survive the initial fall into the crevasse, because they do not impact on a hard horizontal obstacle. But . . .
When the rescuers arrive by helicopter with a powerful winch, many times the big problem is that they cannot _reach_ the skier's harness because it's buried farther down in one of the walls of the icy V.
So I've heard the rescuers now recommend that in addition to a harness you also attach a _lanyard_ or leash securely to the harness _and_ also (not necessarily so strongly) attach it to a point higher on your body, like say near the top of the shoulder strap of your sack. That way they can attach their powerful winch cable to the lanyard and use that to pull up and out on the wedged skier's harness.
Ken
Post edited at 19:57
In reply to kenr:
I did a crevasse rescue course in Cham last winder and this was indeed one of the instructor's recommendations.
I did a crevasse rescue course in Cham last winder and this was indeed one of the instructor's recommendations.
In reply to kenr:
Absolutely, otherwise your harness and all the jangles on it are just something to wear to Elevation for apres ski when you (hopefully) get down, so that everyone will know how 'core you are.
edit
I once saw a party of three still roped-up outside Elevation, it was probably just for the photos but they sure looked as though they knew what they were doing!
> For a party of two, the "knowledge of how" is highly non-trivial. Beyond "knowledge", both members having recent realistic _practice_ in specific techniques for two-person crevasse rescue . . . I'd guess that's a low percentage of the two-person skiing parties.
Absolutely, otherwise your harness and all the jangles on it are just something to wear to Elevation for apres ski when you (hopefully) get down, so that everyone will know how 'core you are.
edit
I once saw a party of three still roped-up outside Elevation, it was probably just for the photos but they sure looked as though they knew what they were doing!
Post edited at 10:47
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In reply to pec:
Might want to watch this if you are planning on skiing the Vallee Blanche youtube.com/watch?v=SrY1DAXAzT8& . Part 2 is worth watching to, although is pretty graphic. Enjoy your ski. I did it a few years ago on a board and was a great day out with skiable snow all the way back to Chamonix.
Might want to watch this if you are planning on skiing the Vallee Blanche youtube.com/watch?v=SrY1DAXAzT8& . Part 2 is worth watching to, although is pretty graphic. Enjoy your ski. I did it a few years ago on a board and was a great day out with skiable snow all the way back to Chamonix.
In reply to Nemo9 & the OP
I was going to link to that film, which definitely makes you think
I've done the VB + all variants several times in varying conditions
In excellent conditions, the normal VB is a long red piste - BUT how can you be sure it's in that condition? Talk to the OHM & people who've done it very recently
According to the OHM, current conditions are ok but variable ("quelques trous ne demandent qu’à s’ouvrir" - see the video where the guy disappears at a place I've skied over several times without thinking)
Remember it's a high glacier and you need the equipment & experience to use it efficiently if necessary
I was going to link to that film, which definitely makes you think
I've done the VB + all variants several times in varying conditions
In excellent conditions, the normal VB is a long red piste - BUT how can you be sure it's in that condition? Talk to the OHM & people who've done it very recently
According to the OHM, current conditions are ok but variable ("quelques trous ne demandent qu’à s’ouvrir" - see the video where the guy disappears at a place I've skied over several times without thinking)
Remember it's a high glacier and you need the equipment & experience to use it efficiently if necessary
In reply to pec:
I've skied it just yesterday. Good snow conditions, avalanche risk is fairly low on the classic run (but that might change with the next snowfall). Huge crevasses all over, however, I've never seen it that bad in my 30 or so descents. We stood on a snowbridge at some point below the Rognon and only noticed because a member of the group popped his pole straight through the snow. There are also some very nasty ones as you roll into the mogul field next to the Géant seracs, including a treacherous one hidden behind a roll of the terrain, right on the track. If coming over the roll with any speed, you'll need good control not to fall in...
Quite rocky at the bottom, a bit treacherous to reach the Mottets, if you're not solid skiers you'd do better to get the lift to the train. The bootpack is in great condition and so is the track to get down to Cham.
As for the ridge, it's equipped with the rope but there are big steps and a crevasse, much faster with crampons. The Z is not open yet.
I've skied it just yesterday. Good snow conditions, avalanche risk is fairly low on the classic run (but that might change with the next snowfall). Huge crevasses all over, however, I've never seen it that bad in my 30 or so descents. We stood on a snowbridge at some point below the Rognon and only noticed because a member of the group popped his pole straight through the snow. There are also some very nasty ones as you roll into the mogul field next to the Géant seracs, including a treacherous one hidden behind a roll of the terrain, right on the track. If coming over the roll with any speed, you'll need good control not to fall in...
Quite rocky at the bottom, a bit treacherous to reach the Mottets, if you're not solid skiers you'd do better to get the lift to the train. The bootpack is in great condition and so is the track to get down to Cham.
As for the ridge, it's equipped with the rope but there are big steps and a crevasse, much faster with crampons. The Z is not open yet.
Post edited at 08:18
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In reply to Alex Buisse:
Thanks for the update Alexandre, which confirms my assessment of the conditions. I'm just back from 2 weeks in Argentiere and didn't bother with the VB as local friends also thought the crevasse danger would be too high for much fun out of the run. Basically with thin snow cover then a dump then good sunny weather it's likely crevasses will not be safely bridged. Since there's been a crevasse rescue going on the last 3 times I've been down the VB in much better conditions it seemed like a good call not to bother in these.
Thanks for the update Alexandre, which confirms my assessment of the conditions. I'm just back from 2 weeks in Argentiere and didn't bother with the VB as local friends also thought the crevasse danger would be too high for much fun out of the run. Basically with thin snow cover then a dump then good sunny weather it's likely crevasses will not be safely bridged. Since there's been a crevasse rescue going on the last 3 times I've been down the VB in much better conditions it seemed like a good call not to bother in these.
In reply to pec:
Skied it once last week. The top section is ok, Salle a Manger had some very open crevasses. The run from here to the ice caves by the lift basically went down the left bank moraine as the central part of the glacier was mostly bare ice... We only did it the one time on the way down from a climb, I wouldn't have done it for fun, although it seemed some people were. The ridge was equipped from about last Monday.
Rope and harness each, with rescue kit and knowledge for each person too. The risk/fun factor isn't in your favour at the moment, in my opinion.
Skied it once last week. The top section is ok, Salle a Manger had some very open crevasses. The run from here to the ice caves by the lift basically went down the left bank moraine as the central part of the glacier was mostly bare ice... We only did it the one time on the way down from a climb, I wouldn't have done it for fun, although it seemed some people were. The ridge was equipped from about last Monday.
Rope and harness each, with rescue kit and knowledge for each person too. The risk/fun factor isn't in your favour at the moment, in my opinion.
In reply to NottsRich:
I guess it's only going to deteriorate now? Not a great year (again) for off piste
I guess it's only going to deteriorate now? Not a great year (again) for off piste
In reply to kevin stephens:
They were due some more snow sometime around now. Some forecasts were talking of 30cm, which can only help, but isn't all that much really. Personally it needs a significant amount of new snow before I'd ski it again this year.
They were due some more snow sometime around now. Some forecasts were talking of 30cm, which can only help, but isn't all that much really. Personally it needs a significant amount of new snow before I'd ski it again this year.
In reply to pec:
Well, I'm now a little more qualified to give an opinion on the conditions, I just got back from a trip down the Gros Rognon.
I am, to be perfectly honest, absolutely amazed by just how well filled-in everything is, considering what I had heard and what I was expecting. Yes, there are a lot of holes around, and yes, you've got to keep your eyes open, but as long as you are confident and capable on a few slightly icy bits to get through the Dining Room, there's not much wrong with it as a descent at the moment. It's certainly nothing like the epic mountaineering expeditions that were being reported back in December, there's no rappelling off of seracs or mandatory crevasse hucks or anything like that.
The arete has a rope, the Z has been built, and there are decent steps all the way down to where you put your skis on, but I'll still stick with my crampons and axe for now, thank you. For the time it takes to put them on and then be able to nip in front of guided groups and overtake people taking their time (whenever safe and appropriate), I still think it's worth it. But, again, maybe I'm just a big wimp.
It's a little bare getting back to the train (a few rocks and bits of blue ice poking through, but the actual motorway is fine), and I've heard bad things about carrying on down towards the bootpack for the James Bond trail, but other than that it's just like skiing it in any low-snow April. Except that it's February.
Well, I'm now a little more qualified to give an opinion on the conditions, I just got back from a trip down the Gros Rognon.
I am, to be perfectly honest, absolutely amazed by just how well filled-in everything is, considering what I had heard and what I was expecting. Yes, there are a lot of holes around, and yes, you've got to keep your eyes open, but as long as you are confident and capable on a few slightly icy bits to get through the Dining Room, there's not much wrong with it as a descent at the moment. It's certainly nothing like the epic mountaineering expeditions that were being reported back in December, there's no rappelling off of seracs or mandatory crevasse hucks or anything like that.
The arete has a rope, the Z has been built, and there are decent steps all the way down to where you put your skis on, but I'll still stick with my crampons and axe for now, thank you. For the time it takes to put them on and then be able to nip in front of guided groups and overtake people taking their time (whenever safe and appropriate), I still think it's worth it. But, again, maybe I'm just a big wimp.
It's a little bare getting back to the train (a few rocks and bits of blue ice poking through, but the actual motorway is fine), and I've heard bad things about carrying on down towards the bootpack for the James Bond trail, but other than that it's just like skiing it in any low-snow April. Except that it's February.
Post edited at 12:58
In reply to pec:
Thanks to all for the time and advice. In the end we didn't bother as there were only 2 of us with the relevant Alpine experience and based on the advice, 2 people and less than ideal snow conditions seemed like a bit of a gamble, discretion is the better part of valour as they say.
Since later in the season is a better bet I'll have to wait for a year when there's an early Easter as its only Feb half term or Easter I can get out there.
On the plus side we had wall to wall sunshine all week and good snow cover with only the runs down from Le Brevent and La Flegere closed.
Thanks to all for the time and advice. In the end we didn't bother as there were only 2 of us with the relevant Alpine experience and based on the advice, 2 people and less than ideal snow conditions seemed like a bit of a gamble, discretion is the better part of valour as they say.
Since later in the season is a better bet I'll have to wait for a year when there's an early Easter as its only Feb half term or Easter I can get out there.
On the plus side we had wall to wall sunshine all week and good snow cover with only the runs down from Le Brevent and La Flegere closed.
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In reply to blurty:
Skied the last part of Vallee Blanche (was coming from the Talefre glacier) last tuesday.
Conditions were alright.
You need to take of your ski’s sometimes when you’re going for the home run through the forest. Of course a lot of bumps there in the beginning after the hike.
Skied the last part of Vallee Blanche (was coming from the Talefre glacier) last tuesday.
Conditions were alright.
You need to take of your ski’s sometimes when you’re going for the home run through the forest. Of course a lot of bumps there in the beginning after the hike.
Post edited at 09:59
In reply to blurty:
I am no local expert, but conditions don't seem that great. Did a Petit/Grand Envers combo on Saturday. Conditions were thinnish but OK. My partners did it again Sunday and all the holes were much more open, including slots opening on the Mere de Glace. They are very experienced and better than me, & are unlikely to do again without more snow. Hope this helps.
I am no local expert, but conditions don't seem that great. Did a Petit/Grand Envers combo on Saturday. Conditions were thinnish but OK. My partners did it again Sunday and all the holes were much more open, including slots opening on the Mere de Glace. They are very experienced and better than me, & are unlikely to do again without more snow. Hope this helps.
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