UKC

Having used leashless tools for two years and realising the advantages of not having the hassle of threading your hand through , hand change etc etc

One major disadvantage I find is not being able to as efficiently shaft plunge in soft snow, the finger support or offset handle preventing a clean push in.

This technique has got me out of a lot of troublesome spots in the past.

Just wondered what thoughts there are on this one.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Completely agree re plunging problems. I've seen several guides use 1 pole 1 axe. Seems to work well for stabilisation while retaining capability for axe arrest.

In reply to Rick Graham:
Most leashless tools have a spike on the bottom which is enough to provide a bit of support on gentle snow slopes. On steeper snow curved tools work well in dagger mode. I suppose if you're dealing with very deep snow it would still be a pain but it's not often that you have to plunge the whole shaft in if you're good on your feet, which I'm sure you are!

In reply to Rick Graham:

Depends on the route. If it's mostly Alpine style climbing with a small amount of technical climbing, such as Tower Ridge or the Aonach Eagach, I'll carry 1 technical axe and 1 mountaineering axe like a Cirque.

In reply to Rick Graham:
I've definitely found my own shaft plunging efficiency has deteriorated over recent times. Never used to have much bother in the old days. Mind you I definitely don't get as many opportunities - a good clean push in is the stuff of dreams these days. Is it an ingredient in wedding cake?

In reply to Misha:

Was really thinking about climbing steep soft snow and neve.

Typically in the UK this is on gully exits/cornices and awkward landings after steep bits.

In reply to BnB:


There, that's better.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Swings / Roundabouts

You want a technical tool that will get you up hard routes? Cool. You do have to be willing to trade that off against the simplicity of a basic mountaineering axe that will do a lot of things better in a 'mountain' context.

Its interesting seeing the number of folks bimbling about with quite top end hi-tec tools which simply won't perform as well in terms of shaft plunging into snow or self-arrest as a boring 'walking' axe might do; which is actually what they want in terms of the context they are operating in.

In reply to Wee Davie:

See what its like when you are in your 60's

In reply to andyathome:



Yes but on some routes, overhanging, I have needed to use shafts to get up.

In reply to Rick Graham:

... with a bent shaft.

In reply to Rick Graham:
Good point. Well, exits and cornices are always a battle anyway...

In reply to jon:

There is medication available I believe......

In reply to Rick Graham:


But in choosing dead technical tools we are sacrificing some of the basic advantages of basic tools.

I wish more people had worked that out. I'm still using some old HB Tornadoes as my 'go to' tools. Slight crank in the shaft, no triggers etc. They just do everything.

But are you suggesting that there is a design commission out there for a winter tool that 'does everything'?

In reply to Rick Graham:

Get 2 leash style axes and fit them with Grivel Easy Sliders.

Problem solved?

In reply to andyathome:


Beside being used leashless presumably?

I lent my friend my Vipers this past weekend - it was his first winter climb in about a decade, so his first ever time climbing leashless. His immediate comment was "it's a lot less hassle than the old days isn't it?" but he did wimper a bit on the steep ice that he wasn't strong enough to hold on for long. Something I'm sympathetic to being weak armed!

Anyway Vipers have a perfectly good spike to poke into snow. My DMM Switches don't. They have a round metal thingy for a 'spike' which is OK but not really the same, particularly on ice.

In reply to Rick Graham:

I had a good day out on Sunday with plenty of solid plunging in soft deep snow and was wondering a bit how others nearby were getting on with their fancy leashless tools. Surely someone must be able to come up with a design for a leashless technical tool that isn't so compromised for general stuff.

In reply to TobyA:

The obvious solution, which I don't think any manufacturer has adopted so far, is to make the bottom hand rest rotate on a pivot. This would fold in towards the shaft when plunging into the snow, reducing the resistance, but would fold out again when needed to provide support for the hand. Some design finesse would be needed to make such a thing both durable enough and have the right ease of movement to work when you want it to but otherwise to stay in place.

In reply to Rick Graham:
I was torn between a pair of Flys and a pair of Apex's for my first winter tools. I ended up getting a second-hand pair of Flys (with upper griprests) - I figured that the technicality of the tools was not going to be a limiting factor for me any time soon... On the few times I have used them (in admittedly very soft powdery snow) I haven't noticed the griprests being a problem for plunging.

In reply to danm:


I think Petzl are (or were) ahead of you here, with the SumTech or somesuch


I feel Petzl may gave discovered this too, since they seem to use slidey rests instead of the flippy one now:

http://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/Ice-axes/SUM-TEC-43?l=INT#.VNz88ku1zlI

In reply to Rick Graham:

What about the new Grivel light machine. Anyone bought and used one?

In reply to gethin_allen:


It's not like I've exhaustive experience of various snow conditions, or axes, but the only time I can think of where I found plungability a problem was when trying to make a stomper belay in fairly hard snow with Taakoons (they probably don't really count as fancy leashless tools these days, but the hand rest is quite broad) - couldn't come close to pushing the shaft down, so I just dug it in horizontally and stood on the handle and head.
Which surely is the lesson; if the snow's soft enough, you'll manage with plunging even with funky tools*, if not, you'll think of something else.

I've got Nomics now, and the thing I miss most is being able to reliably use one as a point of balance when wobbling around in rocks when traversing or descending, since they don't have a point at the end of the shaft (I've got the old ones). I just have to be a bit more careful, and accept that I'll be even slower through such terrain.


*Instead of holding the head and plunging the shaft for balance, the bend in the shaft of the Nomics etc is such that you can just keep holding the shaft and plunge the head when moving up snow slopes - Dave MacLeod demonstrates at one point in The Pinnacle, I think. Or it might have been Ueli Steck on the Eiger