UKC

When is a crampon not a crampon?

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 philhilo 12 Feb 2015
We were descending Easy Gully in Cwm Cneifon recently when we came across a guy at about the half way mark where it is steep but walk able without using an axe in 15 - 30cm of avg snow. He asked us to help him as his 'crampon' had broken. Crampon it was certainly not, a piece of orange plastic held some thin chains under the foot. He had a trekking pole and a small rucsac, an army style jumper and a woolly hat. We lent him some axes and he backed down the slope to the flatter ground. Total respect for having the nouse to ask for help - easy there, harder further up where the snow became neve, however my concern is that if you put 'crampon' into google you will end up with a thousand items for sale that are o.k for putting the bins out on a frosty morning but not for mountain routes! Is this an area for the BMC to talk to the government about some way of making sure only crampons are sold as crampons so that folk like this are not lulled into going into the mountains feeling suitably equipped (in part at least, yes needed axes, clothing, training etc)?
 Batcloud 12 Feb 2015
In reply to philhilo:

Interesting article about what some of these 'Traction Devices' are suitable for.

http://www.meetup.com/scottish-hillwalkers/pages/Traction_Devices/
abseil 12 Feb 2015
In reply to philhilo:

> ...Crampon it was certainly not...

I think the use of crampons has spiked now. What's the point? People need to get a grip.
 Gazlynn 12 Feb 2015
In reply to philhilo:

Sorry to hijack your post here but I was thinking of getting some of these Katoola type crampons that slip over your boots with chains and mini spikes purely to use on the paths in and out of winter climbs.

Walking out of The Cobbler and Beinn Udlaidh the other week was deadly and i know from previous visits that the walk down from SCNL is mental too.

Are these type of crampons any good for walking down frozen paths?

What do others do?


cheers

Gaz




In reply to abseil:

At least he knew when to bale!
 tony 12 Feb 2015
In reply to Gazlynn:

> Sorry to hijack your post here but I was thinking of getting some of these Katoola type crampons that slip over your boots with chains and mini spikes purely to use on the paths in and out of winter climbs.

> Walking out of The Cobbler and Beinn Udlaidh the other week was deadly and i know from previous visits that the walk down from SCNL is mental too.

> Are these type of crampons any good for walking down frozen paths?

Yes, I've used Kahtoola microspikes on frozen paths with great confidence. The main issue is with them slipping on the boot - it's not usually a problem, but becomes increasingly noticeable with steeper ground. I suspect it varies a bit according to the relative sizes of the spike rubber and your boots.

 DaveHK 12 Feb 2015
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:

> At least he knew when to bale!

I think he should have just strapped it on.
 Gazlynn 12 Feb 2015
In reply to tony:

Thanks for the reply.

cheers

Gaz
OP philhilo 12 Feb 2015
In reply to Batcloud:

Very good article. Possibly some more work on the signage at these winter venues where access is easy, tempting folk onto the hill - 'this is a crampon - this is not', 'this is an ice axe - this is not', with some suitable pictures would clarify what is suitable kit.
 The Bad Cough 12 Feb 2015
In reply to DaveHK:
Some good points raised.
 tony 12 Feb 2015
In reply to philhilo:

> Very good article.

I'm not so sure. I think it's overly cautious, and while I can understand the reasons for that, it's another thing which promotes the idea that winter walking is really gnarly and hardcore and you can't step out the door unless you're prepared for every possibility. Which is nonsense. It's perfectly possible to go winter walking without getting in a paddy about gear. I've been up snowy hills with microspikes, and will happily continue to do so in the right conditions.

More important, to my mind, is the idea that different conditions require different solutions - I would go up Ben Vorlich on a good day with microspikes, I wouldn't do the same on Buachaille Etive Mor with an iffy forecast. Simply saying 'no' to microspikes on the mountains is unnecessary and doesn't encourage people to take decisions for themselves.

 Scomuir 12 Feb 2015
In reply to philhilo:

I plodded up Mt Whitney in the states a couple of years ago, and by far the best thing for the job was microspikes. Very little snow, but very icy paths made crampons overkill, and potentially dangerous. In the right circumstances, they are excellent.
 Only a hill 12 Feb 2015
In reply to tony:

I agree. It's up to the user to interpret gear, based on its limitations and the user's own experience and abilities. The idea that microspikes are "useless" for winter mountaineering is quite frankly rubbish, and I've seen highly experienced mountaineers using them on very serious ground in perfect safety (for example, on an icy slope near the summit of a 4000m peak).

Obviously newcomers to the hills should be more conservative, and more education is needed ... but for any given terrain the necessary gear will depend entirely on the person using that gear.
 barbeg 12 Feb 2015
In reply to Only a hill:

Hi Only,

You make, in my opinion, a very important point. You can have all the fancy gear you want - it's only as good, or as useful, as the person using it.

An Agni's - All the Gear and No Idea

ANdy
OP philhilo 12 Feb 2015
In reply to tony:

It does say:

'It is far better for the less experienced to be over equipped as being inexperienced and under equipped is a dangerous combination.'

Plus it is aimed at hill walkers so from that standpoint you would anticipate those reading it to be more experienced walkers than winter mountaineers. So yes an experienced winter mountaineer happy to decide on what is appropriate, this group best to go with better safe than sorry, until they can make their own decisions. Alas the chap we helped had nothing as technical as Microspikes, these things would have been a fiver off E-bay.
 tony 12 Feb 2015
In reply to philhilo:

> It does say:

> 'It is far better for the less experienced to be over equipped as being inexperienced and under equipped is a dangerous combination.'

Being inexperienced and underequipped is probably not good, but I'm not sure that less experienced and overequipped is much better. The danger with that situation is that the less experienced is lulled into a false sense of security and thinks that their crampons will keep them safe whatever happens, which is clearly not the case.


In reply to Scomuir:

> I plodded up Mt Whitney in the states a couple of years ago, and by far the best thing for the job was microspikes. Very little snow, but very icy paths made crampons overkill, and potentially dangerous. In the right circumstances, they are excellent.

The problem comes from not being able to identify when they are appropriate.
 Scomuir 12 Feb 2015
In reply to higherclimbingwales:

> The problem comes from not being able to identify when they are appropriate.

Of course.
 Hay 12 Feb 2015
In reply to Gazlynn:
Microspikes are really quite good on icy paths ... way better than actual crampons and in many situations much safer than just boots. They are quite pish in snow and ball up ferociously.
If buying, go for the smallest size you can get on your boot ... stops them slipping about so much.
You'll knock time off walk in/outs too as less time spent on yer erse.
Bruce
 TobyA 12 Feb 2015
In reply to Hay:

> Microspikes are really quite good on icy paths ... way better than actual crampons and in many situations much safer than just boots. They are quite pish in snow and ball up ferociously.

Two Finnish climbers died in the Alps this summer approaching a rock route on the Blaitière via steep snow. The guy I knew, a really great guy and a very competent and experienced mountaineer, was if I understood the situation properly using micro-spikes and people think that might account for how he lost his footing and fell. Of course you can never says that was exactly what happened and it's rarely just one factor that explains such tragic accidents, but that's was the feeling of the people who were with them at the time of the accident.

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