UKC

I found this quite interesting reading. On the face of it it makes a lot of sense.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jan/30/how-to-eradicate-grey-sq...

In reply to Timmd:
That strategy didn't work out for the little old lady that swallowed a fly.

In reply to Timmd:

Makes a lot of sense, and a fery pretty creature to have around

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Who can honestly say they wouldn't welcome the return of the cow-eating horse?

In reply to Timmd:

I read the article, a rather over simplistic view of the situation and possible solution, it is complex. Can't say I'm a fan of Monboit, he likes to use everything as a vehicle for his personal politics, be better if he left them out and put more in depth facts - but that's his journalistic style. At least the article has brought red squirrels to more peoples attention, which is good.
There certainly appears to be something in it, though a lot of anecdotal evidence rather than hard science, but hopefully it will become part of the solution to red squirrel survival here in mid Wales.

I won't go into it all now, I'm working with our red squirrel partnership and the grey trapping scheme. I'm on a stand in the co-op tomorrow and hope to be talking to our ecologist then, though pine marten re-introduction is possibly in the pipeline for the future.
http://www.wwbic.org.uk/mid-wales-red-squirrel-project/

In reply to Timmd:

Ironic that an article whose prime purpose appears to be rallying against human culling of Grey Squirrels has a photograph of a red squirrel in one of its last strongholds in England in Hexham, Northumberland.

Especially ironic as the Guardian themselves ran an article looking at why the reds are doing so well in Northumberland.. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/may/29/grey-squirrel-hunter-pie...

In reply to Timmd:

Pine Martins are fantastic little creatures. I wish they leave my sandwiches alone though. There is nothing they like better than a rodent blood bath. That self-satisfied look as they lick the blood off their paws is quite something.

In reply to Moley:
Can't say I'm a fan of Monboit, he likes to use everything as a vehicle for his personal politics, be better if he left them out and put more in depth facts -

That's my feeling too, that he mixes politics with ecology, where he perhaps shoudn't.


Thanks for the link.

In reply to Timmd:

If they are a native species I see no problem with reintroducing them. It's only a problem if they use alien species but if they existed happily before, seems like a no brainer?

In reply to Kemics:
Do pine martens predate mink too?

In reply to Philip:
Mink are also mustelids and are bigger than martens, so I'm afraid I think mink would kick martens are, like otters kick mink arse.

In reply to Timmd:


Thanks for the link.

But regarding it "making a lot of sense", I don't know either way. But I have a question, has the introduction or reintroduction of species by humanity gone well - or badly?

Anyway I want to reintroduce tyrannosaurus rex to a certain city in the North of England* - didn't they used to live there**?

*you work it out
**artistic/ scientific licence

Edit, spelling

In reply to abseil:



I read this week that in Australia 11% of their mammals have become extinct, mainly due to 2 invasive species. Fox and feral cats.
I think that answers your question.

In reply to Timmd:
Thanks for the link (s) . Having seen no greys in the lakes for years I ve seen a couple down the lorton valley in the last couple of months . Makes me wonder if they are moving them on from the North East over here. I m totally in favour of a cull and might just invite the "controllers" over here. About 10 years ago I came out my house in the middle of cockermouth very early in the morning to see a red squirrel playing in the leaves on the other side of the road. Proper made my day. We now live just out of town and I ve never seen one out here , we did put a feeder up athe bottom of the garden a few years ago but it went untouched. Sadly there used to be a small copse of trees just over the wall which would have made a great squirrel home, the new people (proper Ecco types I thought , silly hats , dogs on strings , rusty van etc) have just cut them all down. One of our neighbours , a very polite and unconfrontational woman , asked them why but they wouldn't say. Ho hum. I think I ll give them some of this left over botcho cream and relable it as vegan organic massage balm.

In reply to abseil:

I should qualify my last statement by saying not all invasive species are a disaster, some fit in quite well, others a disaster.
Perhaps island nations are most susceptible as they tend to develope unique eco systems which have been protected from invasion. Until we came along.

In reply to mike123:
http://northernredsquirrels.org.uk/members.htm

This shows some of the group areas up north.

Off to check my traps now and then onto the stand. My pet subject so I tend to prattle on forever!

In reply to Moley:



That's helpful, and thanks for both your replies. I think the one about Australia in your first reply is a good example, but I remember reading (sorry no links) about similar events in other places, e.g. America, and elsewhere. And your second post (here) adds to the story.

In reply to Moley:


It doesn't answer the bit about reintroduction. Plenty of successful reintroductions from butterflies to red kites.

In reply to abseil:






* Liverpool

In reply to Timmd:

I think you will find ecology and politics are very much intertwined...to the extent that their is a growing and fascinating area of academia dedicated to it...'political ecology.' If you scratch the surface of a lot of new ecological research, you will find politics driving or guiding it in some way.

I can understand why Monbiot rubs people up the wrong way, and i'm sure the evocative language he uses appeals to certain 'green' types and puts others off. But while we are inisisting that countries in the south should stop cutting down their trees, he rasies some vitally important questions on how we managed our own landscape and to what end or to whose end (as he often argues). For that I am thankful of.

In reply to Timmd:
I still see the odd pine Martin in my neck of the woods but there's still an abundance of greys and no reds,best thing to do is to get squirrel meat into people's diets and the problem will gradually disappear

In reply to Wsdconst:
Good idea. I've had grey squirrel a couple of times and enjoyed it so I imagine the red ones taste similar, though you'd need two or three on your plate .

In reply to herrettscott:



I'm glad he raises questions too, I just sometimes wonder if he turns some people away by being evocative in the way he can be.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

Well I was referring to greys as you well know but when you're hungry you're hungry don't know how well the wildlife conservation guys will agree though

In reply to abseil:


I gather that reintroductions are generally successful, and it's the introductions of non native species which can cause problems.

In reply to Timmd:


OK - thank you for that.

In reply to Timmd:


Capercaille, beaver (see how that goes in 50 years time), red kite, (though never technically extinct in UK), red squirrel was reintroduced in places, sure there's plenty more, any additions?

In reply to Timmd:


Come to think of it wasn't life introduced on earth by a comet arriving at a zillion miles an hour and splashing DNA or amino acids or something all over the place? I wish the damn thing had missed the Earth and hit Venus. I'd rather be over there. It's nice and warm. No ice and snow on the roads.

Edit, spelling

In reply to abseil:

I wish the damn thing had missed earth and hit Venus

Not sure about Venus, but certainly better than Uranus...

In reply to Moley:

Otters are a good example although technically not a full reintroduction.
Sea eagles on a limited basis.
Cranes and bustards still going on.
Wild boar have done a good job on their own.

for reintroduction of a predator the yellowstone wolves are a good example.

In reply to Timmd:

Slightly off subject, I was given an original Tufty Club badge by the project leader this afternoon - remember them?
On my shirt now and off to pub, had to be worn on the right side by kids. How cool is that!

In reply to Moley:

I'm 34 and don't remember them.

In reply to Moley:

Tufty was a tosser because he always made out that Willy the Weasel had no road sense.

In reply to dissonance:

I'm not sure aboutthe benefits of having wild boar roaming around in numbers.
I can't think of a natural predator in the UK to help keep their numbers in check so then there is/ will be talk of "culling", which is where this thread started.

In reply to Timmd:

Thanks for the link. I have heard stories of people seeing Pine Martens in the Lakes, but I have never seen one - sure would like to though!

In reply to Timmd:

Dont mention Pine Martens to my daughter (in Canada) -- one got in to her chicken enclosure whilst she was on holiday - and her partner's 80 year old parents who were house sitting had to deal with the resultant carnage ( bits of a dozen birds strewn all over the place).

In reply to ceri:

All the mink I've seen are smaller than pine martins.

In reply to Timmd:

I read the whole paper which Monbiot bases his premise re pine martins. I also own and read the Duchas (Irish Heritage Service) book on Irish mammals.

The Irish mammal book states that both grey and red have regular population and distribution range changes which cannot be linked to the pine martin as it does not have as wide a distribution as either the grey or red squirrel.

However, in Ireland the pine martin hunts mainly on the ground. Amongst the diet it states that the pine martin 'occasionally eats squirrels', although which of the two species isn't mentioned. Although it is widely believed that the pine martin find it easier to catch grey squirrels I've not found evidence based studies to back this up. The fact that they eat greys (16% of their diet in the USA) does not mean they eat the same percentage here or in Ireland.

The author of the quoted report seems to be basing their conclusions on what they've red elsewhere, and some of this goes back to the 1980s. There is little if any direct evidence that pine martins have any direct impact on grey squirrels. - not that I have any problems with the spreading of pine martins mind you!!

In reply to Dave Perry:
I stand corrected! Having looked it up I thought mink were bigger and pine martens smaller than they are

In reply to Dave Perry:

This is why here in Wales, although hopefully optimistic about the pine marten influence on grey squirrels, but it is not 100% proven yet and we can't take it as gospel. Not as simple a solution as Monboit suggests.

Grey squirrels spend 80% of their time on the ground and 20% arboreal; reds are the opposite, 80% arboreal which possibly accounts for the martens catching more greys.