UKC

So i have questions about how to balance running with big mountains days, so as to not run too much. Skipable back story between the asterisks.
*****
so running is a relatively new thing for me, and I've found - to my surprise - that I really enjoy it.
My primary interest is alpine and winter climbing: big mountain days. With that in mind I recently added running into my training. Previously i was doing very little specific aerobic training. perhaps a 5k row a week. However, on top of this i was getting at least two big climbing days.
I've found myself really enjoying running for its own sake, have dialled back the pace (only nose breathing) and have been getting after it, running somewhere in the region of 18 miles a week (about 3 hours including warm ups/downs etc). It doesn't sound much, but add in some core training, two short bouldering sessions and a couple of hills days and it's plenty...
The result? total anniliation of the body, and two weeks flat on my back ill. I was doing far, far too much.... or too hard, i'm not sure?
*******
The real trouble was failing to factor in the different size of mountain days into overall training volume. I was running a similar amount in the weeks following a weekend of hard - for me - winter climbing as i was a couple of short cragging days.
Do you guys have any rules of thumb for striking a balance? should i wear a heart rate monitor whilst in the mountains, and count up number of hours above 60% MHR? some other devious trick of self control? I know a balance can be found, because it really seems like there are people who manage it...
i know i'm training to balance some pretty complicated training but any advice would be super appreciated.

In reply to stuartpicken: First thing to do is write in calender form for a typical week
i.e, Monday / running 11am, climbing 2 hours 7pm

It might become obvious at that point.....

In reply to stuartpicken:

I struggle with similar.
I ride my bike to work, run, row, and lift weights...and I'm 44 with 4 kids and a full time job. I stopped running last year (I was crap anyway) and now I just lift 3 times a week, cycle to work 4 times and row 3 times. If I skip a meal I notice I'm knackered, I know i'm just burning out sometimes and to be honest I notice it more in the last 2/3 years. Realistically I notice big differences when I get good quality sleep, eat well, avoid too much booze. If I'm going to do a long walk I'll skip the gym/rowing. etc...
Not sure how old you are, but everyone needs to think about diet and rest...it's what makes us tick.
good luck mate

Jas

In reply to stuartpicken:

How quickly did you go from zero to 18 miles per week?

I run 25-30 miles per week, and climb at the wall twice (different to a mountain day, I know). The day after a hard climb i'll take a short recovery run at a slow pace. The day after that, I'm fine to run longer and harder.

Also - why are you only breathing through your nose?

In reply to stuartpicken:

thanks for the replies folks!
Nose breathing: as i'm trying to remain in a fairly low hearth rate ranges (thinking training for alpinism is more comparable to training for ultras than marathons etc) i generally use my breathing as a measure for intensity in lieu of having done a HRM test. good/bad idea?

the real trouble with listing an 'average' weeks training is that i can't! the variability of winter climbing means that i'm heading and doing very different things each week subject to weather, partners and psyche. I guess this clarifies my question though:
if you've got something of a training plan, for example increasing volume incrementally each week, how does one figure out how to factor in different types of climbing activities? for example, i've done a very different amount of aerobic training after a three hour winter approach followed by a multi-pitch than if i've had an afternoon bouldering.
anybody have rules of thumb for managing volume of aerobic training whilst doing a variety of mountain activities?

In reply to stuartpicken:

Sounds like you are running to be a better mountaineer / climber than to be a better runner.

I would split your climbing down to crag / wall sessions and mountain days and split your running down in to short fast runs and long slow hilly or at least off road runs.

If one week you have an evening at the wall and a day at a crag, you can probably easily manage 2 or 3 short runs and a long slow run. If another week you have two long mountain days, you might run want to do two short runs in the week.

How long are your long runs? It's all very well going ultra distance slow, but only if you are running ultra distances.

In reply to stuartpicken:

I had similar training aims, as my main ambitions were trips to the alps. I did too much (combination of climbing, running, wieghts, etc.) and became sick with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Slowly recovering now (3 years later), but would definately advise erring on the side of caution.

I got up to long runs of 15 miles, at a slow pace, but used a HR monitor rather than nose breathing to keep the pace down. I was doing the long distance running because it was difficult for me to get to the mountains as often as I would like. So it was an alternative rather than an addition to long mountain days.

I would suggest focusing on your 'key' training sessions, those that are most beneficial to your long term objectives. These would be your long mountain days, and the crag and indoor climbing sessions. If you are getting say two of each of those in each week, do you really need long runs as well? Your getting your aerobic training from your long mountain days.

Supplement these key sessions with weights, and running, but if you have had a hard mountain day, make the next day an easy short run. A recovery run.

So focus on the key sessions, but go by feel for the other days. If you are really tired or sore don't worry about missing a day while you recover. In the long run you will be better for it. As someone else has already said, rest and recovery is important too. We get fitter in the recovery periods between training sessions, not when we actually doing the training!

I suggest the key would be that old phrase of 'listen to your body' (says someone who failed spectacularly to do it himself in the past) rather than a mechnical, formulaic approach. Particularly if conditions, partners, etc. make it difficult to aim to follow a plan for each week.

Sorry if that is not what you wanted. I am very interested in what comes out on this thread.

Hope that helps

In reply to stuartpicken:

There's been some good advice already. I'd echo that it sounds like you've overdone it somewhere along the line. It sounds from the language like you've read Steve House & Scott Johnston's book 'Training for the New Alpinism'. If not, it might be worth looking at. I'm part way through it at the moment - there's a lot of focus on not doing too much during the early phases (Transition Phase is at least 8 weeks).

It sounds like you're doing quite a lot: 3 hours running, core training, bouldering x2 and hill days x2. There's not a lot of room for rest days in there. If your body can't recover before you hit it again, it won't cope with the additional stress - you'll go down (as it were).

I can't say I'm an expert: I used to lift a lot a few years ago but was never a big aerobic trainer, so this is new to me as well. Just saying what springs to mind from reading TftNA/Steve House's social media.

I'd say, given that you've been flat on your back, look at what you were doing before that and cut it down to, say 60-70% output? Maybe even lower and build it up. Don't rush it. If you're doing good (easy) hill days do you even need the running at the moment? Look at your diet as well. Planning meals in advance helps with that.

As for HRM on the hill, I really can't comment that either (not much help here, am I?) but I use Movescount's app on my iPhone for runs, walks and general outdoorness (I work outdoors so can end up walking/working 2-6 km easily, which counts in my book). I've not heard good reviews on HRMs speaking to someone I know. If you're on Android or Windows try MapMyHike or Strava. I have both and they're good for monitoring ascent/descent as well.

In reply to stuartpicken:

I'd agree with what others have said but it would be useful to know what level of activity you are used to. It's no use basing your training on what others are doing if they are used to a higher level of effort over a longer period of time. It's worth noting that many if not most people don't train hard enough on the hard days or rest well enough on the rest days. When I was in my twenties I could cope with a huge workload but I was used to hard work having grown up on a farm and working as a scaffolder, if I tried a single day at the same intensity now it would kill me! Whether it did me any good is another matter.

HRMs are only any use if you accurately know your individual zones, the various formulae for calculating your max HR can be well out (in my case the three most popular ones come up with a figure that's significantly wrong - the 220 - age gives a figure 10bpm below what I can maintain for a minute!), the only real way to find out is to do a ramp test and that hurts. Perhaps a better way to pace yourself would be to go by perceived exertion.

Don't go training because you think you have to but because you are ready for it. Training when tired or weary will lead to poorer performance and potential injury.

In reply to stuartpicken: Well if you can't produce a typical week then it's going to be hard to work out how much to do or not. Bob gives some excellent advice above - I would add that if you can't work out a typical week then get yourself a year planner and write on that what training you've done (if you can remember), and what you have coming up and build a plan round that. This does sound very organised, but if you're going to try to train a lot a bit of organisation makes a hell of a difference.

Start with hard day, easy day , or hard arms day , hard legs day, easy day, that sort of thing. But you likely just need to organise it a bit better as what you describe is a fair bit, but not excessive.

In reply to stuartpicken:

As an old man of 40! I would say rather than a strict program just train to how you feel. In my twenties I would dig underpins during the day and train for freestyle wrestling in the evening with regular trips to the mountains at weekends, nowdays that would be way beyond my capabilities. As someone who has always run for the benefit of other sports rather than running as a sport I took part in the mds in 2013. I tried a strict running program which was way to much for someone who works and has a family and ended up with various pains and completely knackered. I changed to a much more conservative way of running and found that the long distance training runs were much more fulfilling when I started out in good condition. It sounds like you are already pretty fit to fit in two mountain days a week plus the other training. Also the points the other guys have made about rest and diet are important. Not expert advice but I hope it may be of some help.
Good luck