UKC

I was in a shop the other day, buying some HMS carabiners. The reason I wanted them was for rigging anchors (was a bit thin on carabiners). The guy in the shop suggested I buy 'rigging carabiners', which he said are far smaller and ligher than HMS, and have an angled shape so as to ensure the rope/sling always is at the spine end (such as a DMM Phantom locker).
Couldn't find any info on this, so just wanted to gather some opinions on if having a supply of these smaller carabiners especially for rigging anchors is a good idea, or whether all carabiners should be HMS, or how many of each people have of each.

Thanks in advance

In reply to SenzuBean:
He probably meant offset D shape krabs. they have a straight spine so ropes etc align properly with the spine. They tend to be smaller than HMS krabs. HMS are better for when you want to use clove hitches or clip a collection of ropes together.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


This ^^

In reply to SenzuBean:

As said probably just D-shaped (normal?) lockers, but Phantoms are probably a bit small for this sort of thing (although awesome in every other way). DMM Zodiacs are specifically intended for rigging (extra strong) but honestly any 'normal' locking carabiner will be fine.

In reply to SenzuBean:

And they tend to be slightly cheaper too!

In reply to SenzuBean:

I would get a couple of different sizes/shapes to cover a variety of uses. They may be a bit more expensive initially, but then you won't need to buy any more any time soon.

Essentials on my harness:
1/2 x DMM Boa
2/3 x DMM Shadow Lockers
And if you fancy something shiny and awesome (and money isn't tight)
Bd Magnetron.

HMS really for belaying and tieing in two clove hitches or fig 8s. D shaped good if only tieing in to one rope or sling.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Thanks for the advice everyone - will have a think about some D shaped carabiners and if I need any.

In reply to SenzuBean:

I have a couple of boa's which are great for rigging - you can fit 3 or even 4 clove hitches onto one.

I have a bunch of d shaped ones which also get a lot of use when building anchors.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

"Essentials on my harness: 1/2 x DMM Boa 2/3 x DMM Shadow Lockers"

Really? For single pitch try leaving all your Shadows in your bag and using whatever's left on your harness for clipping in to your anchors. Even climbing with a light rack you'll invariably still have at least two or three snap/wire gates left when you get to the top.

For multi-pitch just take a few Phantoms or similar for clipping anchors, maybe taking one of your Shadows for multiple abseils with cow's tail, carrying trainers etc.

In reply to SenzuBean:

'Rigging' carabiners to me suggests big, burly heavy kit used by folk such as mountain rescue, rope access technicians and tree surgeons. For the average recreational climber this stuff's totally unnecessary; and even though modern lockers are lighter than they were there're still not as flexible or light as normal snap/wire gates.

Personally I'd only buy one or two 'rigging' or D shaped lockers. The ones I've got virtually never get used, even on trad and winter multi-pitch.

In reply to pacman:


I'm not in the habit of using snapgates for anchors. Obviously for short sport climbs at Swanage, or situations where you know exactly what you need, I'm not going to take swathes of screwgates. But when I'm climbing into the unknown I would rather have a small selection of fairly decent sized screwgates to cover all my bases. I prefer the Shadows to the Phantoms for most things as I find they are more usable for my general everyday climbing needs.

I more often than not find myself in the position of wishing I had another screwgate, rather than feeling weighed down by my rack. But that's just me.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

I've never fully understood the point/felt the need to stick screwgates on every single bit of the belay. I use a wiregate on each individual piece (unless there's a specific good reason not to), and usually use a Boa to clove hitch them all to. If the rope to the gear is taut and the gate is oriented away from things, the chances of it unclipping are incredibly remote (IMHO).

</tangent>

In reply to SenzuBean:

My usual set up is a small screwgate on each anchor (my favourite are WC Ions), all brought together at clove hitches on a big Boa.

In reply to SenzuBean:

For personal climbing..
Boa for clove hitching to
Sentinal for belay plate
Phantom for best bit of gear on belay
Sentinal spare, often for guide mode on the ATC.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

"I'm not in the habit of using snapgates for anchors."
Why not? Why wouldn't you (and many others) use non-locking biners, back-to-back if you're worried, for clipping anchors, especially if using something like phantom with high gate-open strength.

"I prefer the Shadows to the Phantoms for most things"
I probably agree with you where screw-gates are concerned, it was the wiregates I was talking about.

"But when I'm climbing into the unknown I would rather have a small selection of fairly decent sized screwgates to cover all my bases."
What sort of unknowns are you climbing into and what bases are you aiming to cover? I'll happily set off on multi-pitch sea-cliff trad or winter stuff with just two screwgates. I've had loads of people falling off (not factor two on me or the belay but with the belay plate slipping at 2.5 kN that's pretty much irrelevant anyway), have had seconds run into problems and arranged Z hoists, got rained off, just generally wimped out and abbed off, and at no time did I feel I was handicapped by the lack of a 3rd screwgate, never mind 4th, 5th, 6th.

"I more often than not find myself in the position of wishing I had another screwgate, rather than feeling weighed down by my rack. But that's just me."

Fair enough, if clipping anchors with strong wiregates genuinely bothers you then I'd agree you're better off sticking with your screwgates. I posted mainly for SenzuBean's benefit, he was asking for advice about rigging biners and nobody else had posted to say that he might not actually have much need for them. You and Jimbo C work one way, teh_mark and I work another, Senzubean's now heard some different viewpoints and he can make his own mind up what he's happy with.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:






I thought magnets wore out eventually?

Edit: I have emailed them to find out the lifespan of the Magnetron.

In reply to SenzuBean:


Might he not have been referring to Maillon Rapides, which are indeed a lot smaller than ordinary climbing krabs, and are specifically designed for single rope access techniques (and are more or less standard equipment for same - at least they were 20 years ago)? Not suitable for ordinary rock climbing.

http://www.peguet.fr

The triangular ones are the most commonly used. I always used them in lots of applications when taking climbing shots from a single static line. Also good for connecting chest ascendeur to waist harness, iirc.

In reply to SenzuBean:

PS. For further advice on this, go and see Shaun at Hitch n Hike.

In reply to SenzuBean:

The answer to what to buy depends on what sort of things you predominantly do. If its setting up top ropes, then I would suggest that HMS caribiners are far and away the most versatile to use as you are less limited on the number and size of ropes they will accommodate.

If your main interest is lead climbing and all you are doing is setting up belays then the bulk and weight of HMS will be a pain to carry.

Either will 'do a job' though. In rigging strength isn't really an issue (since anchors only take body weight or so provided loads aren't massively off axis or across the gate

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:


Why not?

In reply to Timmd:



Wear out? You mean de-magnetise? Can't see that happening within the life of the Krab.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

I see it more as, why use snapgates? Modern lockers are so light carrying a couple with me doesn't make a difference. I'm not Ueli Steck or anything.

When I bring my second up to the anchor these carabiners are the only thing between us and the deck. Why not maximise all your security points? They also can be used as spares if you need to leave one behind. It's not doctrine, if I don't see the point of it I may not, but in most cases I need all the mental reassurances possible, and weight vs risk usually has only one winner in my climbing.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

But following that theory you’d have screwgates on every runner as well then, when you’re leading?
I generally use snap gates from what gear is left over on my harness on single pitch but might take a couple of screwgates if doing multi-pitch as it’s just a pain if you’re a couple of quickdraws down because you’ve used the krabs for the belay. I usually have snapgates on my slings so just use them.
Taking five srewgates up a route just seems a lot.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

He was definitely talking about D-shaped carabiners (he was definitely knowledgeable, but I think was more hands on knowledgeable than knowing the exact right terms).

Good advice though - I'd always read about them but didn't know if they were worth having.

In reply to SenzuBean:

I carry 2 HMS krabs - DMM BelayMaster mk1 (without the plastic clip) for belaying and a DMM Boa locksafe for quick secure clipping and building a belay, as it takes a couple of clove hitches.

All my slings have a screwgate of varying sizes on them and a spare with my prussiks for abseil backup and if I run out of those, then there's always doubled snap gates - that's all fine for single pitch belays, I might carry (give to 2nd) a couple more slings and krabs on multi pitch.

If you're looking for rigging top rope/abseil anchors, then I find the Clog 3000kg screwgates I use with the Scouts to be indestructible.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Everyone has their own ideas about how many locking krabs and of which type is perfect, impossibly few or total overkill, in most cases the answer tends to be in the 2-4 range. I could tell you what I carry (and I will) but the best course of action is to think through why you might use a particular piece in a particular location then how safely might something else be substituted into its place. Given empirical data on climbing ropework accidents isn't readily accessible and everyone has different ideas about what constitutes acceptable risk this is a subjective assessment and one that you can refine with experience. It's worth weighing your thoughts against the practices of others more experienced as a reality check.

Personally for trad' I keep my belay plate on an HMS and there's usually another locking D knocking about somewhere on my harness. Generally I clip with snaplinks and I equalise with rope and knots. It's now habit as much as anything but it's quick, familiar and safe enough.

Better that you're able to improvise safely than that you have one 'perfect' set-up you're good at.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I have always wondered why anyone would carry a Boa when there are smaller HMS carabiners, but that has been answered by a few people. I'll probably get one to try out. I'll also possibly get a few smaller D-shapred carabiners for use with anchors.
One thing I have found is that it's easy to use the carabiners on a leftover QD, gates opposed - as part of anchor setup (the sling of the QD does nothing in this case). That lets the QD do double duty, which in my book is generally a good thing.
I also do like one or two of the Grivel twingate carabiners as my autolockers. They're almost certainly bombproof and the perfect karabiner to use for an Italian hitch (no need to worry about the gate unscrewing). Takes a bit of getting used to though.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

"I see it more as, why use snapgates?"
because they're lighter (noted this doesn't matter to you)
because they're more versatile
because they're less prone to problems with gates sticking and freezing
because when two are used back-to-back they're even stronger and more secure than screw-gates

"When I bring my second up to the anchor... Why not maximise all your security points?"
because it just isn't necessary, a belay of sound anchor(s) clipped with snap gates is easily secure enough

"They also can be used as spares if you need to leave one behind"
some would say you've got money than sense if you're choosing to leave behind screwgates rather than tat, maillons or snapgates

"It's not doctrine, if I don't see the point of it I may not, but in most cases I need all the mental reassurances possible, and weight vs risk usually has only one winner in my climbing. "
As I've said it's not just about the weight. The risk is considered and removed/reduced to an acceptable level by first choosing suitable anchors and then using them to construct a belay that's safe enough, which for me means one that is going to hold. It's perfectly possible to do that with single snapgates on each anchor but if you want to maximise security then you should be using two wiregates back-to-back rather than one screwgate (unless of course you want to use two screwgates back-to-back). Also, if safety plays on your mind so much then consider this; do you use screw-gates on both ends of all your runners when you're leading? If not why not? The krabs on your runners are far more likely than those on your belay anchors to move about and get loaded across the gate or gate open. Granted a runner could fail and another one hold you but at the grades you're climbing you'll probably have already hit a ledge or the ground before your next runner catches you. For you to worry so much about the belay for bringing your second up is like saying that it's okay for you to kill yourself by ballsing up your runners leading but it's not okay for you to kill yourself and your mate by ballsing up your belay.

In reply to SenzuBean:
Sorry for drifing slightly off topic.

To answer your original question about what other people use, here's what I normally carry

for single pitch...
1 x small light HMS for belay plate (https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=petzl+attache+3d)
1 x small light HMS for tying off belay anchors at the body (http://www.v12outdoor.com/product.php/6641/mammut-bionic-mytholito-sg-basal... easily takes two clove hitches, three at a push
0 x extras for clipping into anchors, I just use whatever's left on my harness

for multi-pitch where I'll be the setting up belays before the top...
same two HMS plus a few phantom wiregates
possibly one extra screwgate (D shape) for stuff like trainers/camera/waterbottle

For ease of use with gloves in winter, or at places which often need more anchors for the belays, I'll sometimes swap the small HMS for this bigger one (http://www.v12outdoor.com/product.php/2414/mammut-bionic-mythos-hms, basically the same as the Boa). Not a big deal though, sometimes I've meant to do this then forgotten about it and it wasn't ever a problem.

In reply to all:
I'm offshore and it's been a slow few days.

This has all got a bit off-topic but...

For me I use a screwgate only when it is a 'critical' piece of gear. Examples: belay carabiner, carabiner on the end of a cows tail, usually any carabiner in the master point of a belay (but not individual bits of gear). I carry both my long (240cm) slings on screwgates, because these get used more often as the only bit of gear in a (tree/boulder) belay so get a screwgate anyway. I tend to do a fair amount of doing-all-the-leading so may end up using both in belays (the one I just left and the one I am heading to). I do also have a 400cm sling on a screwgate but I admit that is usually overkill! (although useful when the 240cm slings are not enough for a big multi-point direct belay).

So I could easily use:
One screwgate on a sling on the last belay (with belayer attached to it).
One screwgate on a sling on the next belay (with guide plate attached to it).
One screwgate to connect myself to the belay.
One screwgate on guide plate.
(plus extra screwgate if I have a third climber as well...)

I don't carry isolated snapgates (although I do have lots); all my cams and torque nuts have individual snapgates. Slingdraws are often used as threads but I tend to just leave the spare snapgate on the sling (one is designated 'bolt end' so potentially not suitable for the rope but I have never actually taken them sport climbing). I could probably save some weight by working out how many snapgates I really need but everything is colour coded and it would get messy...

In reply to SenzuBean:

It's a pity folk like galpinos and jkarran didn't post earlier, this thread could have been a fair bit shorter.

"One thing I have found is that it's easy to use the carabiners on a leftover QD, gates opposed - as part of anchor setup (the sling of the QD does nothing in this case)."
If you're doing this be careful with your rope end biner when clipping anything with a sharp edge, e.g. the hangers on some bolts and ice screws, the eyes of some pegs

In reply to galpinos:


As already stated, it's a maximum not a prerequisite for all routes.

In reply to pacman:


I don't know if you're playing devils advocate here because you obviously don't think that climbing above snapgates is an issue, and obviously I don't either. That being said, I think someone will probably come up with a far superior and safer design one day that is still easy to clip yet can't be opened. Then this discussion will be moot. My point is that my runners are safe, and my belay is safer.

Let me give you an example - I was climbing in Llanwyrtd Wells where the sport climbing can be questionable (ie some old pegs, loose stakes etc). I got to the top of a 4 pitch climb and found no stake in place, and all the boulders were fairly small. No trad gear so I equalised two of the biggest boulders and brought up my fairly light second. If one boulder unclipped the belay would have become very questionable, so I used two screwgates equalised at my Boa. Yes I could have taken 4 snapgates instead, but they would take up more harness space, be heavier for the comparable safety and be more expensive if I had to ab off two. For the comparable safety of 3 screwgates in my belay I would have to take 6 snapgates - that seems excessive to me.

The level of weight/safety we are discussing here is marginal (a shadow screwgate is 51g). I have used two wiregates for critical points plenty of times before, and probably will in the future. I just prefer screwgates. I don't think it's a right or wrong issue?

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:


The key point is to use spare wiregates (from slingdraws, cams, hexes, whatever you've got) so you don't have to carry extra screwgates. Given your example that you had no trad gear to put in, you should have had at least few spare wiregates.

P.s. That's another reason to carry full strength racking biners instead of some plastic ones.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
Yes, partly I was playing devils advocate, but I was curious to understand the rationale behind your thinking and your answer makes things much clearer.

There are actually quite a few things which might make me have an issue with climbing above snapgates; being back-clipped, having gates facing the wrong way, having a krab against an edge, lack of high gate-open rating and/or hooded nose ,and poor krab designs that make hanging up on the nose more likely, especially with skinny slings. So just like you I'll welcome the day when someone comes along with something better.

In the example you gave I'd have been perfectly happy with two snapgates unless the boulders were miles away or out of sight, subject to first satisfying myself with regard to the issues I've just mentioned above.

Happy to agree to disagree on this. At least now I understand your reasoning a bit more and agree it's not a big deal either way. What I don't think's right is the seemingly ever increasing number of people who seem to believe that screwgates on anchors are an essential component of a safe belay.

Oddly enough though as this thread has got me thinking I've just been struck by one reason why I might use screwgates rather than snapgates on multi-pitch belay anchors. Some of my partners seem to find the idea of using single wiregates too confusing so they end up wasting quickdraws in the belay; maybe they'd stop doing this if I gave them screwgates instead and I'd get my quickdraws back ready to use on the next pitch.

Edit:
PS I've never climbed at Llanwyrtd Wells but from your description of the place it's slightly surprising you didn't have any trad gear with you. For a first visit to a place like that I'd be carrying at the very least a few wires and extra sling or two in addition to the usual sport gear. I might not bother once I'd done a few routes and sussed the place out a bit but to begin with I'd be erring on the side of caution.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Probably not, it depends how long the biner exists for and how much it's used I guess.

I don't suppose anything worse than it turning into a non locking 'biner would happen, but it could be something of more relevance to people who have a liking of retro gear some time in the future...

Once I start thinking about something like this it bugs me until I find either an answer or a solution.

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:


The ease of clipping is precisely what makes them 'unsafe' (they're not unsafe so long as you understand the limitations and act accordingly). Any krab that is easy to clip and doesn't subsequently lock is also very easy to unclip. Clip a krab as a running belay then simulate a fall moving slightly from gate side to spine side so the falling rope clips itself into the krab (great, it's easy to clip right). Are you still attached to your runner? This just doesn't happen with loaded ropes. Arguably we use locking krabs in the wrong places, they should be on critical runners where unclipping is a very real possibility, not in belays where it's almost inconceivable and frankly irrelevant given the redundancy we build in.

If you think I'm overstating this perhaps I am, perhaps I've just been unlucky (or lucky not to get badly hurt yet) but in the years I've been climbing I've had 3 krabs (that I'm aware of) unclip, 2 were runners that somehow unclipped as I climbed above them probably as twisted rope ran past. One of those was the only piece on an old school slate route which wasn't ideal. The other was part of a nut cluster that held a fall, some ripped, one piece unclipped, enough held.


The thing that worries me in this scenario is the small blocks, not the slings unclipping. Personally I'd likely throw the rope over the blocks or just clip slings with quickdraws, equalise with the rope. If the blocks really were poor I'd sling more, or better further back or simply set off walking away from the edge until the rope pulled tight or I'd found a hole to sit in.

Anyway, I shouldn't be browbeating you, do what you're comfortable with but bear in mind the krabs you're using are much less important than what they're attaching you to.

One screwgate I do carry regularly but I'd forgotten about is a locking revolver slingdraw for critical clips, this has its own drawbacks as it's super slick and I'm pretty tubby but at least it wont unclip

jk

In reply to Timmd:


The worst thing that could happen would be getting to the pub at the end of the day to find they'd f****d your credit card

jk

In reply to jkarran:
"The thing that worries me in this scenario is the small blocks, not the slings unclipping. Personally I'd likely throw the rope over the blocks or just clip slings with quickdraws, equalise with the rope. If the blocks really were poor I'd sling more, or better further back or simply set off walking away from the edge until the rope pulled tight or I'd found a hole to sit in."

glad you said this, I decided not to bother raising the point but it's exactly what my first thoughts were

"bear in the krabs you're using are much less important than what they're attaching you to."

the most useful thing said in this whole thread

In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

Sounds reasonable.

In reply to pacman:


The girl I was climbing with was 5ft and skinny. The pitch was maybe 12-15m slab and I had her on a super tight rope at all times to prevent any shock in the system. The blocks, when equalised, were more than enough, and with my bodyweight included I felt it met my safety requirements.


Agree about lots of what you've said, especially regarding the safety of runners. If the climbing requires a critical 'must not fail' point then a Revolver' is a good choice. If the last piece below you is what's keeping you off the deck or your belay options are limited then you have to do a risk assessment. Of course that's what climbing is all about. Whether that meets or exceeds your or my safety requirements is up to each one of us to decide, now and more importantly on the rock.

In reply to SenzuBean:
Personally I really like the WC Neon screw gates but I'm sure I'd equally like the Phantoms. They are so light that taking a snap gate instead is only going to save a very minimal amount of weight and a screw gate is more versatile. For a typical multipitch climb for two people I'd take 4-6 of these screwgates to be used on lead / for making belays mostly, depending on what other kit I'm taking and also the route and the preference of my climbing partner. I use a mini HMS for belaying from normally.

I also keep enough kit back for emergencies on multipitch climbs (2 short prussics, a double length sling as a foot loop, one light screw gate and an HMS sometimes with a spare belay plate on it depending how serious it would be to not have one - italian hitches have their downsides).

I keep most my slings with a spair snap gate on anyway as I find its far more relieable for getting them off cleanly and quickly without tangles when they are joined together around my shoulders using a biner.

I generally don't use clove hitches to tie the ropes back to me (I use figure of eights on a bight) so being able to fit lots of knots on one biner is not a consideration for me, although I could safely get 2 clove hitches on each Neon biner using an 8.5mm rope and at a stretch I could probably do the same with a modern single rope (or maybe 3 clove hitches using an ice line).

Cheers,
Steve