UKC

NEW REVIEW: The North Face Point Five NG Jacket and Pants

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 UKC Gear 25 Feb 2015
Gore-Tex Pro, helping me keep cool under fire, 3 kbDan Bailey takes the top spec shell kit from The North Face on a long-term test spanning two winter seasons.

He finds some good points but some quite bad ones too - and did the pants fit him? Not a chance... but TNF are going to make some changes...

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=6995

 Sharp 02 Mar 2015
In reply to UKC Gear:
> "good solid no frills shell for foul weather winter climbing and hillwalking"

Strange review and the conclusion is at total odds with the rest of the article. A hood that doesn't move with a helmet on, that folds down over your face in the wind, a bad cut resulting in it pulling out of your harness, single way zipper and toggles too small to operate with gloves on - there are way better jackets for £280 and less. £560 for the full shebang, no thanks.

Never been a fan of TNF, overpriced fashion wear (hence the concealed adjustment toggles to look good down the pub but not usable with gloves). Your experience of them taking UK feedback into consideration is at odds with my experience of the way their sales department deal with uk retailers and judging by the failings above I'm sceptical about how much input Glenmore Lodge had (or at least how much they were listened to). Certainly sounds good for the marketers though, "Point Five jacket designed for the worst of Scottish Winter in conjunction with Glenmore Lodge", TNF might not know much about making jackets but they're pretty hot with fashionable pub wear and marketing guff.
Post edited at 20:12
1
 Gus 03 Mar 2015
In reply to UKC Gear:

Hi Ben,
I work at The North Face and manage the link between us and Glenmore Lodge, and can assure you that the guides and staff there have tons of input into the Summit Series and On Mountain range of products, and their comments are listened to as much as possible. That's one of the reasons that they have chosen to work with The North Face instead of other brands.

There are even products in the range (for example the "DNP Hoody", and "DNP Jacket") that are based directly on product requests and briefs from the Glenmore Lodge guides, and products that get 10/10 in feedback sessions that we do with them regularly.

I'd be happy to answer any questions to address your rather skewed view on it, but not on here, so feel free to send me a PM if you like.

Best Regards
Gus
 BnB 03 Mar 2015
In reply to Gus:


> I'd be happy to answer any questions to address your rather skewed view on it, but not on here, so feel free to send me a PM if you like.

This isn't a good start. The customer is always right. And Dan Bailey a respected and experienced reviewer with an affiliation to a site which presumably carries your advertising (so the cynical might assume could be pre-disposed towards a gentle review) thinks your pants are, well..., pants and has valid criticisms to make of the jacket. Why not address those points publicly rather than come across so passive/aggressively to a potential customer.

 Gus 03 Mar 2015
In reply to BnB:

Think you've answered your own question there.

I have no clue what passive/aggressively means but it sounds bad, so apologies if that's the case!
 Sharp 03 Mar 2015
In reply to Gus:

Hi Gus, thanks for taking the time to respond. Of course my view on TNF is biased in that it's based on my experience dealing with the brand, not sure if that makes my view skewed or not but perhaps I should have just kept my comment focussed on the jacket. Most global outdoor companies understandably don't have time for small accounts and the days of companies offering independents good service (or dare I say reps visiting) are all but gone for a few stragling brands who put the effort in (ME, berghaus, bridgedale, Rab, Leki, Scarpa, Petzl...)

Back to the jacket, if you take a look at (for example) the ME Lhotse at £50 more than the point five the differences far outweigh the price and you can see the thought and detail that has gone into the jacket where it matters most - the fit, the hood and basic suitability for winter. ME morpheus £280, Rab Latok £250, Keela mountaineering jackets at half the price - all have good hoods, a total basic.

My skepticism comes from the fact that anyone who spends time in scottish winter knows they'll have gloves on a lot of the time, knows they'll want to turn their head with a helmet on and still see, knows that a peak that folds down in the wind is useless and knows that a jacket riding out of your harness when climbing is a pain in the arse - I imagine the staff at Glenmore Lodge would know all that, yet it hasn't made it into the jacket so either they didn't tell you about those useful features or the message got lost somewhere along the way - no doubt at about the point someone pointed out that 75% of the people buying it will be buying it for the pub so why not make it more suited for that? Which is fair enough from a business perspective but £280 is too steep in my opinion for a jacket that fails at a basic level when there are cheaper alternatives that perform better.
 TobyA 03 Mar 2015
In reply to Sharp:

Ben - have you actually tried that model of jacket? That's not an accusation, just wondering. I haven't, so I could be totally wrong on this but having done gear reviews for over 7 years now (I looked it up, and now feel terribly old as a result!) I've realised that some stuff fits ME well and other stuff doesn't. It sounds like these pants may well have had some real issues with the cut for a season but it's hard to know if with the jacket, it's the jacket's shape or (in the nicest possible sense) Dan's shape? I've found a number of Rab tops just don't fit me - too big in a large but medium too tight across the chest.

I still don't really get how companies go through the process of finalising designs, but I don't really think the people at TNF would have just said, "yeah, we know the hood is kind of crappy, but don't worry - lets just get the factory to make 5,000 of them - I'm sure no one will notice." I more suspect that someone thought it was quite a good hood, but was using it in a different way or different conditions to Dan. I know the climbing I do is likely to be quite similar to what Dan has been doing, so in that sense I'd follow his review I suspect if I was looking for a jacket, but maybe someone else might find the jacket great for their climbing...

I dunno, reviewing clothing is challenging because what works can be really personal - so you feel bad saying "this just doesn't fit well" because normally I guess the most you can really say is "this just doesn't fit ME well". There is also something of an understandable urge to criticize the big companies and laud the small ones as well...

Right, ramblings over now! Apologies for going on.
 gergosantha 04 Mar 2015
In reply to Gus:

Hi Gus,

I own a TNF Point Five jacket for 2 years, used it at least on 8 Scottish winter routes and I'm very unimpressed to say the least and I'm thinking of selling it. I understand that you don't want to see some deal-breaker details here so if you want I can send you my comments in a private message.
 BnB 04 Mar 2015
In reply to gergosantha:

I think a lot of forum members would like to see more criticism of gear, particularly from those who paid good money for the items, so why not post your thoughts on this thread. Isn't that what the forum is for, to share real world knowledge and thereby balance the marketing overload?
1
 Damo 05 Mar 2015
In reply to TobyA:

>
> I still don't really get how companies go through the process of finalising designs, but I don't really think the people at TNF would have just said, "yeah, we know the hood is kind of crappy, but don't worry - lets just get the factory to make 5,000 of them - I'm sure no one will notice."

Andy K wrote a piece on this years ago, after working with several UK gear companies, and it was a bit disheartening. Just too many compromises along the way made it a very imperfect process, almost guaranteed not to work *really* well for anybody. A few years ago Macpac made some really nice shell gear, but it fit almost nobody. I know the design/fit they were going for, and I know something of the input, but it just went awry. The result was racks of these otherwise well spec'd garments hanging on shelves and eventually sold off at clearance prices. Eventually.

> I dunno, reviewing clothing is challenging because what works can be really personal - so you feel bad saying "this just doesn't fit well" because normally I guess the most you can really say is "this just doesn't fit ME well".

Which means almost nothing unless you provide personal physical measurements and comparisons with other garments. Why don't more reviewers do this? Saying "the fit is spot on", as I often read, is meaningless without context. I know it's rather un-British to give such personal details, but it would help a lot. Ditto for saying "I normally take an L in Arcteryx but found I need an XL in this new Montane jacket" or whatever. There is a significant variety of fit across garments and for some of us, it renders some items completely unusable - baggy waist, short arms, tight hood. Fit is function, not just form.

>There is also something of an understandable urge to criticize the big companies and laud the small ones as well…

Small companies often get an easy ride, especially British companies here on UKC, which I understand given how we like to encourage new players and new things, but sometimes their stuff is just not up to it and they should be called on it. Some big companies got big because their stuff is mostly really good. Small companies often have owners who are vary passionate, dedicated and skilful but also very stubborn, idiosyncratic and have too much personal ego tied up in their product. Every criticism of product is a criticism of them.

 gergosantha 05 Mar 2015
In reply to BnB:
That's a valid point from you so I'm willing to get into details and try to get as unbiased as I can. I'm not British and since I can't be unbritish, here is my body frame: I'm 6'4'' tall, 187 lbs. I've got long arms. I'm considered a slim guy with no belly (no sixpacks either). Additionally, my apologies for my English.

Since in my country premium British outdoor gear is out of reach we are using Patagonia, TNF, Arcteryx, Mammut, Millet, Outdoor Research mostly. Arcteryx, Patagonia and Mammut is very expensive, Millet is quite rare, TNF and Outdoor Research are okay. Two years ago I was in the need of a good hard shell jacket and there was the TNF Point Five with an appealing price tag so bought one.

The first odd thing was the sizing: I'm usually wearing XL or XXL but here the large (L) was my size. It was important to me that the fabric must be of Gore-Tex because I heard mixed opinions about eVent. The fabric is actually excellent, still waterproof after 2 years. Breathability is not discussed here since I've never had the trust in that, I think all these materials are just a _bit_ more breathable than a plastic bag only in the first couple month of their lifecycle and after that is just plain bullsh*. Going uphill I'm usually sweating and I cant imagine any fabric which can let out that amount of steam. The fabric is also hard-wearing, it went through numerous chimney pitches in Europe and Scotland as well.

The jacket is quite light and simple, the armpit zips are nice and useful. The jacket has the same type of zip everywhere, all waterproof, however they are a real pain to handle. It is quite hard to start the main zip, it is a lot of fiddling, very frustrating with the price tag in your mind. The pockets are well placed and the right one has a wee pouch in it which is nice. The zips of the pockets are again horrible. When they are fully open (unzipped) the bottom end of the zip is too close to the pocket's bottom so there is a danger of loosing things unincidentally. It is almost impossible to unzip them by one hand and this is very annoying since you've got only one hand when you reach to your camera whilst belaying your buddy. It is primarily because of the 'bulgy' cut but more on this later. All zips have wee cords attached to them to ease handling however I found them rather small and since they are just only from cord they can easily slip out from your gloved hand.

The tightening cords are nice but won't let the jacket wandering out from your harness which is unpleasant which is related to the 'bulgyness' of the jacket. I don't want to be body frame fascist here but any alpinist I've seen in my life seriously committed, travelling under the 'Summit Series' flag had no bellies, they were mostly slim, tall, athletic. TNF Point Five fits you like you are 25 years older and sitting in your armchair asking for a wee dram. Often I'm not able to see my harness belay loop just after pressing down the 'bulge' with my hands. Maybe that's me with an odd body frame so it might fit others better, dunno.

Another annoyance are the wrist velcro tighteners. They are impossible to handle in wet gloves, they are covered with velcro all the way so there are times when you can't grab them anywhere because they are sticked to their counterparts all along. They are from slippery plastic so again, no chance to grab them. They have a good shape tho', small and well placed.

The hood is spacey enough, and well cut however I was not able to manage the front and rear tightening cords in gloves. It is hard to grab them (you can't see a thing) and by pulling them there is a significant delay when things start to tighten up and I usually have the feeling that I'm going to tear something off. The rear one is impossible to find in gloves wearing a helmet. Obviously it is rather hard to set up your hood right and I've usually get my hood blown off from my helmet by strong winds. Very frustrating.

Bottomline: good fabric, good production but bulgy fit, zips are hard to handle, hood is nice but the handling is not well-thought, wrist velcro is slippery and hard to handle. I recommend this jacket to skiers and would call it TNF Le Deux Alpes instead of TNF Point Five.
Post edited at 10:45
 TeeBee 06 Mar 2015
In reply to Damo:

> A few years ago Macpac made some really nice shell gear, but it fit almost nobody.

Funnily enough, I had a Macpac jacket that was probably the best fitting shell I've ever owned. What put me off was the way it actively wicked water down the back of the zip when it was raining, which was a bit disappointing for a high-spec waterproof.

It looked great in photos, however.

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