UKC

Hi there

I'm doing the race to the stones this year (62.5 miles) and need a bit of advice on the long run regime and how to work out the pace for my weekly long run

I have done a fair bit of running over the years but i only really play at it most of the time

Quick background of my running , 42 min 10k , 1.37 half and 3.30 marathon are best times over the last 10 years

I have done the classic quarter (44 miles) about 5 years ago in 10 hrs 15 but didn't really do proper training for it so not much benefit from that other than knowing how to tough it out a bit

I've been doing abut 35 a week for the last two months just to get back into shape , mostly 6-10 milers between 8 and 9 min/mile pace

Now i want to add in one long run a week of 20 miles + with a view to training up to 36 miles before the race

I have just done 2 long runs so far of 20 and 21 miles at 10.15 (too slow) and 9.15 pace respectively which felt ok but i am unsure really of the pace i should be running as the distance gets longer

I plan to try and complete the race to the stones in 12 hours or below , if you allow 30 mins for water stops and walking all the hard bits (roughly 6 miles) at 15 min/mile that leaves me 10 hours to run 56.5 miles

That averages out at 10.40 min/mile

So should i be running faster than this pace on my long runs ?

I feel like i can run quite a bit faster than that without too much problem at the moment and i have 4 months of training till the race

Any advice would be welcome

Thanks nick

In reply to misterb:

I'd forget the numbers.
Just run and run and run.

If you do the most you can. Then either you will fly it or will sleep well knowing you did everything you could.

Tip of the day- if you're appethetic about having a drink of water, you're dehydrated.

In reply to misterb:
I assume you are doing a run/walk strategy. So you need to practice that.

Run/walk from the very start or after a set distance but with a set run/walk ratio that works best for you.

Have a search for the Spine thread a few weeks back or there is one on Runnersworld.co.uk forum that some of the competitors posted blogs to.

All good stuff, good luck.

In reply to misterb:
"I have just done 2 long runs so far of 20 and 21 miles at 10.15 (too slow) and 9.15 pace respectively which felt ok but i am unsure really of the pace i should be running as the distance gets longer "

I'm not sure what your '10.15' (too slow) comment means.

My advice is that you can't really go too slow on your long runs. Without really knowing how hard you're running your 6-10 milers, then 10.15 seems okayish for your hard run. By way of comparison, if 9.15 the right long run pace, then i'd say your 6-10 milers should be down about the high 7, low 8 pace.

The aim of the long training run is what it says on the tin- to go as long as possible. If you had a choice of using your available training capacity between 20 miles at 9.15, or going a bit slower and doing 25 at 10.15, then the 25 at 10.15 is the one to go for.

If you're 4 months out, then don't be thinking about pace yet-most coaches agree that pace is what you work on when you can do the distance.

BTW, Anton Krupicka says the one thing he wishes he'd known when he started out was that he could have done a lot more walking in his training... don't be afraid of it!

In reply to misterb:
You sound like me a few years ago. Not in a patronising way, in a pace and experience wat.

Pace doesn't matter on your long runs. In fact the slower the better as you spend more time on feet and lessen the risk of injury.

Just run, run and run some more.

Also, work on a hydration and nutrition strategy and practice it. The difference between success and failure on long runs is normally food. Eat early, eat often.

In reply to XXXX:

Spot on advice that.

In reply to misterb:

All the above advice, but I strongly believe you should also train on the walking aspect. If you are likely to walk sections of an ultra (probably all except the elite), train to walk fast, don't just amble along. This extra speed adds up over a long distance, also a good time to take on food and water etc.

In reply to zimpara:

I only have the time for a max of 50 miles a week so i am afraid i cant just run and run and run , i will have to make the most of my long run hence the questions

In reply to DancingOnRock:

I was going to use all the ups as my walking time although have read about specific run walk strategy and maybe walking for a minute every mile as well as all the ups is a distinct possibility

In reply to Ander:

i felt like doing 20 miles at 10.15 pace was too slow for me and actually made me ache a bit more than normal running pace.

The 21 mile run at 9.15 pace was better and i ached less although was more tired straight after the run

I am running 6 miles at 7.30 ish , 8 miles at 7.45 ish and 10 miles at 8 min/mile pace

I guess i just want to make the most of my one long run a week , if i am out for 5 hrs + i really want it to count

thanks for the advice

In reply to XXXX:

Do you really think pace doesn't matter even though on my longest runs i will barely be doing half the race distance.

it sort of flies against all the principles of training for every distance up to marathon

I guess i will just have to control my ego and try and keep it slow

hydration and eating is weighed off as i am the hungriest thirstiest person on earth

thanks for the advice

In reply to misterb:


Personally yes - your long runs will still be long, and the key thing is time on your feet.


Yes but chances are when you run a marathon you're aiming for a good time - for an ultra (certainly your first) you should just be aiming to avoid DNF. Too many people (a good 50% on a lot of ultras) bail out because they overcook it too early. A marathon is short enough that you can get away with running in deficit if you're quick enough - an ultra will always catch up with you if you don't manage staying out of the red (or anywhere near it).

I learned the hard way - my first ultra was 86km and 4000m +/- and I made it to 60km before just losing steam and then was unable to make the checkpoint before the cutoff - it felt easy so I pushed it and paid the price. I came back to it two years later, a lot wiser and managed to complete it in 15 hours, and actually felt quite good at the end of it. The race still had a 40% dropout rate so I was pleased.

Good luck with the race (and the training). I've got a mate doing it as he lives on the route. It looks like it could be a decent introduction to ultra distance.

In reply to misterb:

My girlfriend is the ultra runner in our house, I find a marathon a long way. She has a 100k in a couple of weeks. She has done 2/3 race distance on the course following 25/5 run/walk strategy. The running is 60-90 seconds a mile slower that her best marathon pace.

It is fairly flat, probably only 500m ascent over the 100km and her target is around 11 hours, she has done 7 hours plus in training.

In reply to yorkshireman:

I picked it because it looks flat so should be easier on the quads than the classic quarter which had loads of steep ups and downs which were really debilitating, hills are not my thing

hopefully with a load of good long runs it will go well and i can get the finish and the time i want, keeping up the training up will probably be harder than the race i reckon

cheers

In reply to The New NickB:

Christ , 7 hours is a long training run

Did a 23 miler tonight using the run walk strategy (10/2) at an average of 10.15 pace which is 2 mins a mile slower than my best marathon pace and it felt good so i'm going to build the miles on top of that pace and see how it goes

I wish her all the best , 11 hrs will be awesome if she does it

cheers

In reply to misterb:


"So should i be running faster than this pace on my long runs ? "

Yes.. your long runs in training, if on the road, would be much quicker, 3:30 marathon is 7:40 ish.. so I'd say 8:30 pace for long runs of 15-20 miles, throw in the odd longer run or shorter ultra in training.

The aim of training is to get the physiological gains to run the race, not specifically training to run that pace. Just get fitter first, then look at paces after you've had 2-3 months of training.

In reply to misterb:

"i felt like doing 20 miles at 10.15 pace was too slow for me and actually made me ache a bit more than normal running pace. "

yes and how you get injured.. running with an unnatural gait. That's how people often get IT band issues..

In reply to misterb:

I've just entered the Classic Quarter. I haven't done more than 32 miles before (the RAT) , so this (44 miles) will be quite a step up in distance. Most of my running comprises runs around the 10 miles mark, with a few recently up to 20 miles in preparation for the Grizzly which was last week. I think now I will try to do longish coast path saunters on Saturdays, just trying to spend several hours on the go at a time, while keeping up the pace, and find out what that pace turns out to be. then I'll try covering the ground at the pace I would need to achieve, and see if I can do that for 20 miles or more.

I'd like to do the CQ in 8 hours - which requires 10:55 ish pace. I did the RAT (the time I didn't DNF!) in 11:25, but have just done the 19 miles Grizzly in 9:43 pace and felt I had something to spare at the end.

In reply to mbh:

when i did the classic quarter i was a bit lazy with my training and only did about 200 miles total training over the 6 weeks before and had never run further than 20 miles in my life.

I didn't hurry at any water stops and had about a 15 min stop at penzance , walked all the ups and was on for 9.45 ish till i fell apart in the last 6 miles due to extreme dehydration and had to walk really slow just to finish in 10.15

8 hrs sounds possible although it is quite hard to get a rhythm going due to all the very steep ups and downs and the bloody steps which are really hard on your quads

good luck, its a great race so have fun

In reply to Roadrunner2:




Sounds like a good plan , i was going to work on my endurance at 8min/mile pace once a week , so push the distance further at that pace until i am back at the fitness to run 3.30 again

i can knock out 10 miles at 8min/mile so i will look to push up the distance over the following months

cheers

In reply to misterb:

Thanks. I will give it a go, even though it is alarming to think that I have to go more than twice as far as the point at which I gave up on the RAT last year.

I think Moley's advice to walk fast is good, and I would avoid any kind of faff or delay at the water/feed stations, It will add up over a long distance. Get the food and liquids and move on.

In reply to mbh:

When I did my first ldwa 100, I walked some behind Richard and Sandra Brown - they out for a gentle stroll - Richard has walked a 16hr 50m 100 miles (OK, on the track but that is nifty!), but using them as pacers we steamed through the field and it made me realise the importance of walking fast whilst eating, drinking and having a breather from running. Those speeds do take practice and concentration but its worth training at stretching out whilst walking.

In reply to Moley:

definitely on for the practice at walking fast , did quite a lot last night but i have never been a fast walker and was finding 15 min/mile pace hard although a lot of that was up hill

your totally right that it is great for eating a drinking which is going to be so important so i will keep the faith with the run walk strategy

In reply to misterb:

I think this is a mistake. You aren't training for a road marathon.

But training for ultras is very individual so ultimately do what works for you.

In reply to Moley:

I did an LDWA 18miler on Sunday. The thing that always amazes me is how long it takes to catch up and overtake some of those walkers. Even when you have them in your sights it can take miles. Then if you stop, even for a minute to get something out of your pack, they trundle round the corner and pass you again.

So another bit of advice is practice getting things out of your pack while moving at speed.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

That made me laugh, happened to me so many times over the years. Running in a nice rythm, stop to look at the map (before GPS thingies) or have a pee and the buggers are back on your shoulder! One wrong turn and the added embarrassment of passing them again, and again, and again.
Why I rate a good walking speed as an essential part of a runners armoury.

In reply to Moley:

As well as being able to map read to the level where you're reading far enough ahead while running that consequently you know where you're going to go before you get to a junction.

There were a pair of runners on Sunday who overtook us several times as they were much faster runners. However, they kept disappearing off in odd directions or stopping to check their map at practically every junction.