UKC

I'm wondering about the length of sling to use for extending a belay device for abeiling kids and smaller people. What size sling do I use?

In reply to ElvisMax1:

you mean as a tandem abseil? I find a 120cm is fine though it doesn't matter too much if it's too long as you can shorten it with a simple knot.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I was thinking about just single abseiling and I was wondering if a 120cm sling was too long for kids. Is it reasonable just to use a shorter sling?

In reply to ElvisMax1:

Well, for big ol' me, I normally have a knot at about 30cm from the harness for attaching the belay device. After that the length of the sling doesn't matter?

In reply to ElvisMax1:

If you mean extending the belay device away from the abseiler and using a prussik attached to the belay loop to lock it off, then the sling simply has to be long enough to make sure the prussik cannot slide up against the device. How long that is depends on the length of your prussik loop and how much of it is taken up in the knot.

For kids and/or people with little or no abseil experience, this would not be my preferred way of rigging an abseil. Two other ways of backing up the abseil are to have a separate safety rope or to have someone standing at the bottom who can lock off the device by pulling on the end of the rope.

In reply to ElvisMax1:

Why do you want to extend it away from the harness? If it's to put the plate out of reach and clear of hair/clothing then just measure up against the kids in question, see which suits best. I'd have thought a 60 should do the trick unless they're teenagers in which case it might be a little on the short side.

jk

In reply to ElvisMax1:

is it going to be a releasable abseiling session? if so why bother extending the belay? they don't need a prussic if it is a releasable abseil as they should be on a safety line. If they are abseiling without a safety line you could have some one at the bottom (competent) to provide a firemans brake (hold the rope to pull it tight if they mess up). once again, this would negate the need for a prussic and extending the belay.

If however this is a natural progression on to personal abseiling techniques then the sling only needs to be long enough to prevent the prussic from being sucked into the belay device and that depends on the legnth of your prussic!

I say Keep it Simple if you can. this will avoid all sorts of issues that can arise while abseiling!

In reply to ElvisMax1:

I use an extender from a quickdraw set-up for this. So it's 1 SG onto harness - extender - SG with fig of 8. The extender is no more than 10cm. This has worked a treat for me for years. Helps keep fingers etc out of the ab device and makes it easier to hold / control the ab rope.

In reply to ElvisMax1:

Why would you need to extend the belay? If the prussic is long enough to reach the belay device when it's clipped to the harness either use a shorter one or just wrap it around the rope more times... no need to reinvent the wheel!? Don't think I have ever extended the belay device ever on an abseil

In reply to jsmcfarland:

It has a number of advantages in the right situation, but not always.

In reply to jezb1:

which are? :s

In reply to jsmcfarland:

where do you clip your prussik on your harness then?

In reply to simondgee:

legloop...

In reply to ElvisMax1:
I am guessing the original post is asking for this information so that he can stack abseils. So 2 or more people can all be on the rope with devices connected and when the first person goes, the remaining can just unclip and abseil down. This is far safer than letting inexperienced people set up an abseil unsupervised. You watch them set it up, you go, they unclip, they go.

I use this set up when abseiling off routes with relatively new people. or i use it when everyone in the party extends their devices anyway.

the other option is to just lower off the newer people i suppose

as for length, a 120 knotted roughly halfway works fine. halfway on the sling have the device, at the end have the carabiner they will have to unlock before abseiling off

In reply to simondgee:

belay loop

device on the sling goes through your tie in points

In reply to jsmcfarland:


this was considered less than ideal practice over a decade ago, it will work almost every time... but just once, that once in a million when you get hit by something from above etc. knocked out, then your leg will lift up and the device and prussic meet and down you go.

Yes, it's unlikely, but it's another risk or hazard you can limit from one of the most dangerous element of climbing. If you use a standard sling to extend the device with, you can put and knot in it 20-30cm along and that's what extends the device. The remainder can then be used to clip into the anchor for more precarious takes offs, or into the next ab point when you arrive on multi pitch descents.

In reply to valjean:


if you are stacking them, then you are the protection and the bottom holding the rope. They don't technically need extending, although it makes it slightly easier for them at the top though as they can move around a little whilst they each go down. Some folk find it easier to control to if it's a little higher up and they are inexperienced.

In reply to jsmcfarland:


and you still have your prussik below the belay device on the live line?

I've always found this too small an area to control smoothly, which is why I extend (sometimes) and with the prussik on the live rope the prussik never take the full load of the abseiler.

In reply to summo:

If you ask anyone who uses their leg loop why they do I bet some of them say it's because of what happened to Todd Skinner and all the rest will say its the way they were taught.

I like to point out to people I'm teaching to abseil which is the most likely scenario - a belay loop failure or you getting knocked out with one leg in the air and your prussic stuck in the device or worse?
At least if you have your prussic of your belay loop you won't end up in an awkward position or at the bottom of the crag in a heap.

In reply to krikoman:


Personally I'm with jsmcfarland on this, I don't extend my belay plate away and I have no trouble putting a Prussik on the dead rope and clipped to my leg loop. It may not be best practice but it works well enough and having tried it extended away there's something I really don't like about the belay plate by my face, Prussik clipped to the belay loop set-up, I'm not saying it's unsafe (it isn't) and it's probably just lack of familiarity but I think it's where it puts my hands on the dead rope, trapped against the sling and I don't like it. Each to their own.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

I think the main reasoning for extending the belay plate is that you can then tie a knot somewhere in the middle of the sling and once you reach the next anchor, clip that tail into anchor.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


I hope you didn't stake too much on bet because you've just lost

I use the legloop because it works and involves less links to get wrong when you're doing multiple abseil's at the end of a long tiring day. There is no way that I can contort myself into any position where the prussic loop van contact the belay device. Either some people are using prussic loops that are too long or I'm a really strange shape

In reply to PPP:


Fair enough but since I have no trouble coping as is...

The Prussik releasing on the plate if you invert is the most compelling argument against using the leg loop.

jk

In reply to PPP:

An independent sling does the job just as well and doesn't leave you fighting to undo tight knots with cold fingers later on.

In reply to timjones:

It's more likely to be an issue with modern buckles where it can in a certain position release the leg loop causing it to be able to run up to the belay device. If you use double-backs this can't happen, though the issue with inverting *may* remain.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Ha! Just scrolled to the end of the thread to make exactly your point! Since I started using ziplock leg loop buckles I've moved my prussic up to the belay loop and extend the belay device. Its a bit of a faff negates the worry about the crab on the leg loop releasing the ziplock accidentally.

In reply to Neil Williams:



Those modern quick lock buckles are the work of the devil

Horrible things designed for the bone idle IMO. Sadly it is getting harder to find a decent selection of harnesses without them

In reply to timjones:



If you extend the belay device long enough, yes that's true - it won't (shouldn't) come into contact with it but there's also the issue of some harnesses being zip lock styles which can cause issues - certainly more likely than a failed belay loop!

Also, what are you trying to achieve by using the leg loop? is it to add redundancy should your belay loop fail? is it more convenient/easier? is it comfier or is it something else?

The redundancy issue is not really a problem given the likelihood of belay loop failure being so small. I personally can't say it's easier or more convenient as I find I don't always use the same hand for holding the rope. I can't say it's comfier (though this is hardly a valid reason). I've run out of reasons to use the leg loop.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:




It works and it's simple to set up. What more do I need to achieve?

Personally I don't need to extend anything to avoid a prussic attached to my legloop contacting my plate.

My point was that your assertion that people only use of he legloop for one of the 2 reasons you mentioned was incorrect. People, harnesses, belay devices and prussic loops all come in different shapes and sizes. There is no definitive answer.

In reply to timjones:

it works and it's simple to set up not using the leg loop and there are fewer potential issues doing so.
Whether you do it or not I don't care, but my MAIN assertion was that people don't always think about WHY they are doing something nor of the potential consequences of doing it should it go wrong. I appreciate you have taken the time to think about all those things and you do what works for you which is fine. I don't teach people to use the leg loop anymore because there are more potential issues doing it that way than a novice would necessarily understand, know or care about.

You're not a novice being taught this now unlike the people the OP is teaching.

In reply to timjones:

Well, some harnesses actually feature a special loop on a leg loop so you can attach a carabiner. The only harness which comes to my mind which still has it is Black Diamond Focus: http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/shop/product_Black-Diamond-Focus-Climbing-... . However, it has fixed leg loops, so maybe BD was concerned about stitching? I don't know why is that, but this harness seems to be specialized anyway. Even Black Diamond Big Gun doesn't feature this thing, so I am a little bit confused right now.

P.s. I am pretty sure I have seen a harness with quick lock buckles and a carabiner loop on a leg loop, but can't find it!

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I don't think it's clear what the OP is trying to achieve yet.

Has he even mentioned prussic loops?

In reply to ElvisMax1:


One way of answering the question is the ask why one extends and uses a backup prusik in the first place. Common answers:
Extending:
1. when doing stacked abseils you almost have to otherwise the team gets pulled around by the rope.
2. if a 120cm sling is used you also get a tether to clip the next chain with, and the locker used for this can be clipped around the rope you need to pull so you can't forget which it is.

backup prusik:
3. in case you need to let go - to sort the ropes out (we have all done that)
4. provides a backup if you do something stupid, like forget to attach the plate or insert only one rope (I've done that)
5. in case you let go because you: panic, get hit by rock fall (I've done that) get knock out, get attacked by killer bees etc. (I've done that).
6. fail to keep control if there is a large jolt when part of the anchor fails.

I often don't extend. Given 5 this is possibly stupid, as my leg prusik might then be able to reach the plate. It is almost as if I'm stopping the thing from doing its job by setting it in this way. I must reform myself.

Given 4, I possibly should consider using the belay loop or tie in points for the prusik. Too long in the tooth to change?

To the OP. The answer seems to be long enough so even if the person in knocked out the leg prusik can't reach the plate but short enough so he/she can get his/her hand above the plate if needed for control, orientation or to get the plate over a lip.

In reply to David Coley:
And as it was pointed out to me on SPA training, when you are hanging semi-inverted you can get the prussik much higher up the rope than you think...

Personally although I certainly wouldn't advocate it to others I don't use a prussik at all but I use a Megajul and when abseiling the problem is more getting it to release the rope and lower... Works quite nicely for me - I don't trust it to go hands-free but I have no real doubt it would hold if I were knocked unconscious. Before I got it I found a prussik on the other hand could easily fail to grab if not set up perfectly...

In reply to andrewmcleod:


I see the solution being set it up correctly? Then you don't need to carry extra devices. Also if you are potentially going to take others out, shouldn't you practice what you will preach in the future. Not wanting to sound harsh, if setting up a French prussic is tricky, perhaps progressing down the qualifications route isn't the right choice?

In reply to all:

For multiple abseils, abseils with a heavy pack or abseils involving faffing around on the rope I extended the belay device as per the Petzl blurb, http://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/Rappelling?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climbing&... and I now do it every time I abseil. I find it leaves the belay plate (original ATC XP) in a nice place that’s easy to control and I can let the prussic bite if I need to remove gear, move the rope etc on the way down. The prussic also ends up easy to release when required.

Basically, I tried it and I liked it!

In reply to timjones:

That's a valid point but given the fact he wants to extend the device you can be forgiven for assuming this was the reason why. The only other reason would be to keep the device away from hair or fingers but again, if these people are novices, why isn't he doing a releasble setup?

In reply to PPP:



Black Diamond Renegade.

The harness I use has a triangular gap where the loop meets the material attaching to the tie in loops and this is where I clip my locking biner+prussic, it can't move around on the leg loop or shift around. I've never thought about getting inverted while doing an Ab but if your prussic is long enough to reach the device in the event then it's probably too long IMHO. I have my prussic with enough loops that I physically have to release it to get any rope through the device.

Classic case of people overcomplicating things thinking they are being safer, when in reality they are just adding more links in the chain that can go wrong. My 'favourite' example is the american climber who was solo-toproping with a mini-traxion connected to his belay loop and decided he needed to make another belay loop with a sling to make things 'safer' (which obviously got caught in the device and caused him to fall, breaking a leg or something).

Just my opinion of course

In reply to jsmcfarland:


Nope, it's quite simple and eliminates risk. Also it is pretty standard now amongst people who work professionally in the outdoors and if the leg loop failed any manufacturer will tell you that the leg loop isn't design to carry loads in that fashion.

The risk isn't of you inverting yourself, it's things hitting you and causing the inversion. In my life so far I've seen rocks, ice, sheep, sigg bottles, hexes, ropes, guidebook... come down the crag, all of which could have ruined my day had I been abseiling.

In reply to jsmcfarland:

I'm with you on this one. Anything that adds to the faff of abseiling adds to the danger IMO. Keep it Simple.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


I am now using a megajul too. I really like it (though it can be a bit sticky if you don't get the rope and krab size ideal). I am quite happy to let go of it which, as well as making it very safe and a prussik redundant, eliminated loads of faff if you are sorting out ropes or removing gear on the way down. It is also, of course, virtually idiotproof for belaying (as long as you have it the right way round). I'd like to think that non-assisted belay devices are going the same way as ancient sticht plates or even waist belays.

In reply to Robert Durran:

But Megajul is not as sexy as DMM Pivot...

In reply to Robert Durran:

both have their places, sticht plates are smooth, grab free and great for novices. Waist belays, perfect in winter, the alps, or easy / fast scrambling terrain. It's about having a lot of tools or skills for different situations, you'll never use a sprung sticht plate upside down, or with the wrong krab size.

EDIT - plus you can never forget to bring a waist / body belay, it's a skill for life!

In reply to summo:


Agreed, a waist belay can be very useful, but I doubt anyone is going to carry a sticht plate in addition to a modern device. I just think that standard ATC type devices for routine belaying have had their day (or soon will have).

In reply to PPP:


Just looked up the Pivot. Is it actually an assisted locking device in lead mode or just a sexy guide plate?

In reply to Robert Durran:

nope, never carry two devices that's a waste of weight and energy. There isn't anything that can't be solved by carrying a bug and 2 or 3 prussiks. I might carry a very simple guide plate as well, if I chose to direct belay one or two of novices up easy ground, but nothing even as fancy as a reverso.

The difference is with a bug, or any old school bit of gear, if you are out with novices etc. they forget their device or drop it, they can have mine/yours. No learning or training required. I can then improvise my own belaying of them.

Hassle free and zero additional money on belay devices in the past 15 years, only a bit of prussic cord, which tends to naturally replace itself when I sacrifice them on abs stances where the tat in place is looking very tired.

In reply to summo:


True, but with a Megajul or equivalent, you have everything a bug or guide plate will do in one light device and in some situations it does away with the need for a prussik. Not to mention the massively added security belaying.

In reply to Robert Durran:


but it can't be passed to a novice without training, you still need to carry prussiks, and if direct belaying on plate, it's useful to have a belay device in case everything does go wildly wrong, as Italian hitches etc. are more awkward to back up and kink the rope to hell, potentially making a situation where something has gone wrong, much worse.

Belaying security - you should be paying full attention anyway.

In reply to summo:


It takes about two minutes to show a partner how to use it.


Yes, but you can often avoid the faff of using them (such as abseiling when a back up is judged sensible)


I can't see why unless you are saying that you should always have a spare belay device anyway.


Of course, but shit happens and anyone can screw up (I've seen it happen several times). Leader pulls off hold and falls, hold knocks out belayer....... with a Megajul, the leader doesn't plummet the full length of the rope and quite possibly die.

In reply to Robert Durran:

And it looks rather a lot nicer and more intuitive to use than a Gri-gri, which while it does do the job I think is an utterly horrible device to use.

I'm really quite tempted to try one.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:
There's one here on ebay, if you want it.

But it's not cheap!

http://tinyurl.com/okao9o7

In reply to Robert Durran:
2 mins wasted, and money spent for the pleasure.

prussiks are basic, simple to use bit of the kit, that does several jobs, irreplaceable on a harness. IMHO.

I am taking about as instructor if you are bringing two relative novices up, you should be able to secure then instantly, but also have the means to get to them almost next to instantly, say 2-3mins.

Instant lock belay devices are not particular good for traditional anchors, fine for bolts etc. though. The BMC did studyies on this over a decade ago when gri gris first hit the market. I know this because I was involved in some of their testing. The instant lock/stop of the rope, often passed on the leader's fall impact to the second ie the belayer etc, as well as shock loading people anchor or runner that took the full load. Sometimes a more traditional belay devices that allows for little slippage as the belaying reacts on locks off has hidden benefits. This applies in summer and winter.

In reply to Neil Williams:


Neil, if you did a little more climbing in the real world you wouldn't have these frankly daft hang ups.

In reply to summo:

Or perhaps a revelation.


Obviously. What is your point? Assuming you are using a belay plate anyway, why not use one that does everything a basic one does and more?


I'm not.


I am at a loss to see how a Megajul would be a hindrance. If anything the opposite.


Swings and roundabouts.

Unless you think that possible shock loading is an overriding factor, I really cannot see what your objection is.

In reply to Neil Williams:


If you want an assisted locking device for sport climbing (single rope) without having to learn how to use an "unintuitive" gri-gri, look no further than the brilliant Click-Up. The only issue I have with mine is that I have such confidence in it that I am no longer happy being belayed with a standard plate and have to politely insist on lending it to partners if they are not a gri-gri user.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Before the proper ranting started at about 5 o’clock today I went online and ordered a Megajul on the basis of what Robert said. Less than £20 posted by the way.
The further discussion has reinforced my decision to buy.
I’ll let you know how I get on when it’s arrived. Mostly climbing indoors at the moment so it’ll be belayer and climber feedback!
Oh, and where the f*ck’s Rick when you want his opinion??

Steve

In reply to Steve Clegg:


I hope you get on with it. You may find it a bit sticky with a single rope; as I just said, I use a click-up with a single rope and a megajul with doubles.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Just sexy guide plate with lowering made easier. Still, sexy, you know?

In reply to Robert Durran:


so you have to own two different devices to do one job? I can see some natural redundancy if some company brought out a simple device like a bug,atc... which could work smoothly on 1 or 2 ropes, 8.something up to 11mm... ?

I think it's bit like the apple watch, there are perfectly able devices on the market, but a company brings out a new product and convinces the world they can't possible manage to belay safely without one, until they create another device in few years, then they'll tell you that this is best ever. Salesmen's dream.

My point is why buy one new device, or two in your case, when there are plenty of old more straightforward devices in existence that do the job equally well, or in the case of your grabby megajul, the old stuff is better.

In reply to summo:

Yes. In my view, if a device works well with a single rope then it is potentially unsafe with double ropes and certainly so with modern skinny ones, so you might as well have the ideal device for both.

Before I moved to assisted devices I was using three different traditional devices anyway (single ropes, double ropes, skinny double ropes in winter).


My point is that they definitely do not. The modern devices do all that the old devices do better and they do more.

In reply to jon:

Pray tell, precisely what frequency and types of climbing are required for it to be valid to hold a view in your obviously expert opinion?

I would only expect further use of a Grigri (I do own one, because as I do a bit of instructing I feel I should be familiar with them) to reinforce the point that they are cack-handed and awkward devices to use compared with pretty much every other brake assist device.

Yes, I can learn to use one - I do know how. But that's like[1] saying I should learn to drive a Series 1 Land Rover with a non-synchro gearbox rather than preferring a modern car.

[1] OK, the Landy is perhaps more like a waist belay, but you know what I mean

Neil

In reply to Robert Durran:

my bug and plate do everything that your devices do and are equally safely(with auto lock devices on trad gear, old school devices are arguably safer), mine are easier to use and I already have them, so additional cost is zero.

I will agree that some belay devices that can carry a worn out fluffy 11mm, will be quite scary if you abseil off on two 8 or 8.5's, but it's about finding a device that best covers all the rope options you are likely to carry. Even so there are simple ways of clipping a krap into a system when you ab to increase friction, that would also avoid the need to buy a special device for abbing on super skinning ropes.

In reply to summo:

No they do not; you cannot take your hands off after holding a fall or when abseiling. My Click-up, when threaded in reverse works just like a conventional device if I were worried about shock loading. I think the Megajul does too, but I would need to check. Fine, if you prefer conventional devices, use them, but please do not pretend they they are as versatile and capable as a modern assisted locking device, because they are not.


That will always involve a compromise in performance and safety. By having ideal single and double rope devices you can have the best of all worlds (you will never need to carry both). The only issue might be the extra cost, but in the larger scheme of climbing hardware, it's not much to pay for the advantages.

To be fair, you do need to get used to the action of the assisted devices (and, in the case case of the megajul, experiment a bit to get the ideal krab size) to avoid "stickiness" and even unwanted locking, but it doesn't take long to get the hang of it (most people get the hang of the click-up and are impressed converts after a couple of indoor routes). Of course there are other assisted locking devices on the market for both single and double ropes and, ideally, you should probably try a few out before buying - it probably just comes down to personal preference and belaying "style".

In reply to Robert Durran:

Okay, not to complicate matters, but now I'm wondering about belay devices: Is there any advantage of using a figure of eight over a belay device for abseiling? And, is there any need to extend figure of eight?

In reply to ElvisMax1:

The advantage is that on a long abseil they are better at shedding heat, being bigger.

Do you need to extend one? Well, could the prussik get stuck and release itself? The fig 8 has the rope further from your harness than a belay device, but whether that is the case depends on your harness.

Neil

In reply to ElvisMax1:

You've still not really explained exactly what you are trying to do other than run an abseil session - there are many ways of doing it, some are risky, some are safe. are you trying to teach personal abseil skills to a group or is it a fun session? all these will allow us to best direct our answers to one that isn't about whether a prussic on the leg loop is needed/safe/best practice or whatever.

thanks

In reply to Robert Durran:

Not sure you will want to not hold onto the live rope when belaying, that's your only job? If because of some eventuality it was needed for a little while, it takes about 5-10 secs to tie a conventional deice off. If relative hands free, or different speed multiple seconds, a plate works fine.

You have yet to tell anything that older devices can't already do.

In reply to summo:


Of course not. What is your point?


But is instant with assisted devices. It make a huge difference when faffing about sorting ropes on abseils. And is great for sport belaying (why do you think people have been using gri-gris for years?


The megajul can be used as a guide plate (its very versatile).


I have told you loads! You are just choosing to pretend otherwise for some reason.

In reply to Robert Durran:

But it still only does the same as exists elsewhere already. If anything the auto this and that is used as an excuse to not pay attention and belay attentively, because the device will lock anyway...

I'd rather have simple devices that do the job perfectly, used in simple systems etc. Rather than have one techno device whichis more jack of all trades but master of none.

I suspect we will agree to differ.

In reply to summo:

But it does it all in one simple device.


Obviously it should not be used like that. It is a very effective virtually fail safe backup in a fall and very convenient after a fall and any other situation where the locking facility can be used.


The megajul is virtually as simple to belay with and in fact simplifies your systems. It is you who is advocating owning just one belay device which is jack of all trades and master of none.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Nope, it was you that said yours was grabby on singles and you have another device. I've used my bug in all situations, all ropes, all seasons... for at lest 15years, before that a sticht plate. My bug has done its job perfectly, plus a hand full real life rescue events and countless training and assessment scenarios.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

The objectives are pretty simple: one, to instruct beginners on smaller, single-pitch crags; two, to abseil into difficult-to-reach areas such as sea cliffs--also single-pitch.

In reply to summo:


I have separate devices for single and double ropes. I never have to carry both.
I shall check to see whether my megajul can be threaded in reverse so that it acts as a conventional device (I think it does). if it does, then the only possible case you have for compromising with a single device jack of all trades is cost.


I got by fine with everything from a waist belay via a sticht sticht plate to an ATC and a buguette over thirty years as my default device/method. This does not mean that assisted devices are not a revelation and a significant inprovement in convenience and safety.

In reply to ElvisMax1:

Hopefully not with a group of a beginners for number 2?!

The length of the sling should be long enough for the prussic to not get sucked into the device. It's a simple as that. There's no set length as the length of the prussick, the size of the crabs and the position of the prussic will determine the length of the sling.

I have to ask out of curiosity - in what capacity will you be instructing these kids? I'm sure you know that abseiling is inherently risky and teaching it to others is quite risky too (for yourself). While there's no requirement to be qualified to teach climbing techniques etc in the UK, there's a very good reason people do pay for qualified instructors to teach them - Insurance and assurance they are competent to do so.

In reply to Robert Durran:

MegaJul works absolutely fine the other way round - I find it's sometimes easier to ab that way round if the rope thickness makes it too grabby in locking mode

In reply to Carless:


Good, so there are in fact no advantages at all of a conventional belay plate over a megajul (other than a few pounds cost). It can be an assisted locking device, a conventional device or a guide plate according to the situation.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Yep - I'm a big fan, and they're only a couple of quid more than other standard plates and a lot less than Gri-Gris, Click-Ups, Smarts, etc

Apparently the 1st batches had some problems with the wire breaking out, but this was quickly solved


and in reply to the thread
I've never felt the need to extend the ab device & have happily clipped a prussic to the leg loop for years
I'll have to try extending to see if there are any advantages but I can't yet imagine any

In reply to ElvisMax1:

Well this has gone wildly off topic. In answer to the op, you should extend it anywhere between nothing and 30cm - but by the time you're dangling novices off sea cliffs I'd have thought you'd have spent enough time abseiling yourself to figure out what system works for you. personally I use a 120 sling tired off at about 20-30 cm because I find icomforier, easy to control, it's a good length for tying into anchors at the next stance and once you're in the habit of clipping the pull rope it's a useful way to remember which to pull without any effort.

On the assisted braking one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that it can make you a lax belayer, when I started using an assisted braking device at work taking my hands off the rope felt all kinds of wrong, now although I still think of myself as a competent belayer using any or no device winter or summer I think I've lost that learned, hair on the back of your neck fear that taking my hands off the dead rope used to give me. I'll always use a standard device for trad for the Well documented and already mentioned reason that it's another thing reducing the forces on the gear which makes it a no brainer, assisted braking devices are great for sport or indoor.

In reply to summo:

You've gone and made that classic mistake I was talking about...."leg loop isn't designed to carry loads in that fashion".... are you serious? I'm almost tempted to go buy a piece of kit to measure the 'load' on my legloop next time I have a prussik on it. Honestly. Are you also one of the sorts that obsess over the difference between 1ft of sling and 1ft of dynamic rope?

In reply to Sharp:



I just don't buy this argument. I've seen too many people dropped when they wouldn't have been with an assisted device.


Can anyone provide some actual data on this? Or is it a myth that there is a significant reduction in forces? Anyway, the idea that significant slippage ( and the obvious risks involved) when holding a fall is inevitable and good if anything makes me even more in favour of assisted devices!
.

In reply to jsmcfarland:


1 foot of sling - if fallen on might snap
1 foot of rope - if fallen on wont snap

There are worse things to obsess about.

"leg loop isn't designed to carry loads in that fashion" isn't the same as saying it's not designed to withstand the force involved when used in that fashion, it's not about breaking strain it's about how close you can get to the belay device if you lift your leg up. This varies between harnesses, an extended sling doesn't.

Personally I don't have a problem with people using a prussik on a leg loop and I don't think it's wrong, I didn't die when I used to do it that way but I find it uncomfortable and cumbersome compared to extending it away. Quite why you have a problem with people using an extended sling I have no idea, it's a system that is technically safer, it's what you'll get taught to do if you do any outdoor qualification involving abbing, whenever I've seen videos of Andy Kirkpatrick abseiling (someone who probably knows more than most about going down) I notice he uses an extended sling....etc. etc. It's a legitimate way to abseil so stop pretending your way is better, your way is just different and if you're splitting hairs not quite as safe.

In reply to Sharp:


I think the soggy bag of guts doing the falling breaks before either !

In reply to summo:


All hail Summo's glorious words of wisdom. I will go away, abandon my SPA aspirations, and rethink my life in terms of the philosophy of the One True Belay device - the standard tube device.

or did I actually say:
a) I wouldn't advocate i.e. teach it, ignoring for a second that teaching abseils is outside of the SPA remit,
b) I didn't say setting up a French prusik was tricky, just that I have with my slightly-too-fat and still a bit shiny 6mm cord had it completely fail to bite whereas the Megajul is almost completely reliable in this case,
c) how am I carrying extra devices? You are carrying extra stuff i.e. the prussik (although I always carry two outside anyway)

Caveats: the Megajul may not bite while belaying if you are doing something fundamentally stupid with the rope i.e. waving it over your head or something - it is not a grigri, but for abseiling the way the rope hangs makes it very unlikely to fail.

In reply to jsmcfarland:


If you work in the outdoors, or in the position where you take any responsibility for other people safety, ie. group abseils, then you'll rapidly learn that it's in your best long term interests to use equipment as per manufacturers instructions, I dislike all the H&S hype as much as anyone in the outdoors, where risk is much more dynamic, but should something go wrong, even completely unrelated to the leg loop etc. in court the legal opposition would take great delight in highlighting how you are using equipment incorrectly yet, claiming to be a professional in outdoor work.

Yes, put a leg loop on the stress meter and haul away, probably 1-2000kg depending on the buckles and style of stitching. But, that doesn't mean the leg loops are made for it.

Many years ago, with BMC tech committee I've stress or load testing on abseils, but more in relation to anchors forces on different styles of abseiling, the smooth and continuous, versus those who think they are in the SAS about to swing through windows, it produce some interesting graphs. But, even the worst abseilers would never create dangerous loads on their harness.

Besides my argument for not using leg loops is about the prussic self minding on the device, the manufacturers instructions bit was a sideline that clearly woke you up.

Why would I obsess over a dynamic or static 1 ft length?

In reply to andrewmcleod:


I'd have thought that 6mm is a bit on the thick side for a prusik, especially for thinner rope diameters?

In reply to Steve Clegg:


The only thing worth practising is lowering - once you get the hang of it it is safe, easy and smooth, but until you get the hang of it it can be a bit jerky (I find a combination of sliding pressure on the rope with the brake hand and pushing on the wire loop is needed, rather than trying to control the descent with just one or the other).

In reply to andrewmcleod:

within the remit of SPA you still set up abseils and send them off down, folk start learning good habits or practices from their first introduction.


I would suggest thicker cord? 6mm is ok for a single or double 9s, bit thin for 9 upwards. Two thirds or 70% is rough guide for prussic to rope.


I have 3 prussiks, knife, plate all the same krab without fail. In the Alps or other places I'll add a ropeman too. A few bits of prussic should be standard not extra, the same with a knife.


My argument is that it's a more complex piece of kit that does things other simpler devices already do. But, it's actually worse at somethings as even the owners have said, it's grabby on single ropes and it's instant lock isn't suited to trad gear... can't think of a good reason to own one.

In reply to tehmarks:


Indeed, hence 'slightly-too-fat'? But equally 6mm isn't 'wrong' (e.g. Needlesports sells both with a comment about mountain guides recommending 6mm) and maybe more inspiring if you end up using it as abseil tat?

The point is simply that you can without being unreasonable end up with something not 99% reliable. The Megajul is probably >99% reliable for abseiling, you don't have to extend it or you don't have to work out exactly how far you can get a leg loop prussik up the rope when you leg is up by your head (surprisingly far)...

But I would still teach prussik usage first if I found myself in a situation where I was teaching people to abseil because it works with anything rather than a specific device.

In reply to Robert Durran:
:>"Can anyone provide some actual data on this? Or is it a myth that there is a significant reduction in forces? Anyway, the idea that significant slippage ( and the obvious risks involved) when holding a fall is inevitable and good if anything makes me even more in favour of assisted devices!"

BMC tech committee did this years ago using the wall at Plas y Brenin. As them for their data.

In reply to andrewmcleod: > The point is simply that you can without being unreasonable end up with something not 99% reliable. The Megajul is probably >99% reliable for abseiling, you don't have to extend it or you don't have to work out exactly how far you can get a leg loop prussik up the rope when you leg is up by your head (surprisingly far)...

but I bet if you rotated your hips through 90degrees, without lifting your leg at all it would meet the device. Besides the idea is to eliminate the risk, it's not a certainty, just chance it could happen.

In reply to summo:

Once again I will bow to your superior knowledge of the SPA syllabus. Or... you use prussiks for personal abseils but you are not qualified to teach abseiling. All non-personal SPA abseils are on releasable abseils with a safety rope; no need for knots in the rope or prussiks. Teaching abseiling would be within the remit of an MIA/MIC/BMG.

(obviously when not working as a professional anyone can teach anybody anything the hell they want)


Unconventional advice; if it works for you I guess that's fine?


Glad we are in agreement


Don't worry, I won't make you

You can carry on carrying a tube belay plate, a double-rope autolocking belay device, a guide plate and a mechanical descender to do all the things the MegaJul does. You are probably even right; each of those four devices probably does a better job at its specific purpose than the MegaJul. But you must remember to carry at least the tube, guide plate and descender when trad climbing; I will let you leave out the autolocker if that's your preference...

In reply to summo:


Are you talking about a prussik meeting the device, which could lead to catastrophic rapid descent? Or my leg meeting the MegaJul, which I can't really see doing anything when the device is locked up? (and a Mega-jul is basically some fraction of locked-up for the entirety of an abseil, you descend by going from 100% locked up to 90% locked up)

In reply to Neil Williams:






Thank you Neil, you've just confirmed what I suspected.

In reply to summo:


A quick google suggests that a grigri can in fact increase forces significantly over an ATC, so I concede you are right about that. Of course, the effect might be lessened with an assisted (rather than an auto-locking) device like a megajul, though I suspect it would still be significant. Of course, with a megajul, you can, as we have established, use it in non-assisted mode when this is a concern, so it is still the most versatile single device to carry - for normal climbing and abseiling it does everything a standard device, a guide plate, an assisted device and a prussik do; it's hard to see anything against it.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I'm guessing that my arthritic thumbs would object to having to keep the thing cocked all the time

In reply to Robert Durran:

It's not really an argument, just my experience. In the instances where you've seen so many people dropped I would imagine most of them were from belayer error rather than rock fall/unconsciousness. In those kinds of instances it's my opinion that the people were dropped because they weren't being belayed properly, not because they didn't have an assisted braking device. If there's an argument there it's for proper belaying not for a different device.

As a point of interest I've had an assisted braking device fail to engage twice (with an adults weight on the end of the rope and a sudden fall), an assisted braking device isn't an excuse for incorrect belaying as if you use one enough you'll find they DO fail to engage. The most important habit is keeping your hand on the dead rope* and I find that people regularly using assisted braking devices lose that logical connection between"hand off the rope = dead" and it's replaced with "hand of the rope= 99% of the time it'll be fine".

It's something that I think you need to consciously work on, i.e. try to forget you're using an assisted braking device whenever you're using it. When someone falls on an ATC you can feel their weight in your hand, feel it slipping as you try and hold them - that's what makes them a pain indoors or on sport but it's also their strength in that your brain is constantly reinforcing that it's your hands grip that's basically holding someone's life and while that's not really an argument for never using an assisted braking device I do think it's one of their weaknesses that hadn't been mentioned so far in this thread.


I'm not sure there's a need for data, the rope slips minimally through a standard ATC but that still means there is some extra time added in where the force is spread out reducing the peak forces. Like I said there are times when assisted braking devices are useful, indoors/sport. But if you're struggling above an RP or your 10 meters above a tied off ice screw then you'll be very glad you're belayer doesn't have a gri gri in their hands and not hugely concerned about falling an extra 10cm.

* that's not aimed at you by the way as I'm sure you and 95% of everyone posting on this thread know and do that.

In reply to jon:
Childish at best. Perhaps you would answer my question as to what level of climbing experience qualifies me to hold an opinion in your view?

"It's possible to learn to use a device safely" != "the device is optimally designed in terms of usability and safety compared with other options on the market".

Neil

In reply to Sharp:


What an extraordinarily daft viewpoint! Of course they were dropped because of belaying error. People make errors (as I have seen on several occasions). An assisted device would almost certainly* have prevented those errors resulting in accidents and injury.


Yes, but I don't think it is intuitively obvious that the effect is significant compared with that of the elastic rope. As I said earlier, it turns out that actual testing has shown that it is.

*As you say, assisted devices are not 100% foolproof, but they are a hell of a lot more forgiving of errors than standard devices.

In reply to Robert Durran:


You sound like a total nob.

The only thing that would stop me from holding a leader fall would be being knocked out, which is one of the arguments used in this thread for ABDs (hence me highlighting that in the cases you mentioned that argument probably didn't apply - not quite sure why that's extraordinarily daft). My point is if people are not holding the rope then the answer is to teach them how to belay, not give them a device that reduces the chance of their shit belaying killing someone. No if's, no but's, hold the dead rope - this is what prevents injury. I think you've proved my point that ABD's are becoming a solution to bad belaying and that is what I think is a bad idea because good belaying always works, ABD's usually work.

In reply to Sharp:

FFS.


And I expect some of the people I've seen drop people belaying would have said the same thing before their hubristic comeuppance.
Same principle in all driver error car crashes. And pilot error in plane crashes with highly trained pilots.
People make mistakes. Accidents happen. If a simple device can stop a mistake resulting in a serious accident, then it has to have a lot going for it.
Is the blindingly obvious really so hard to understand?

In reply to summo:



Or see www.multipitchclimbing.com

Not that I see anything wrong with using a grigri on trad. Many in the USA do it all the time.

In reply to David Coley:

Upside: You might manage to catch a Factor 2 without severe burns.

Downside: The gear holding you to the belay might fail.

Horses for courses

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Reforming their organs after a ff2 might be more of a concern.

In reply to Robert Durran:


UIAA/prEN has two categories of device, manual braking device and locking assisted braking device. the MegaJul is only certified as a manual braking device and fails the test to be an assisted device, as do all others using the same principle.
I own and have tested all the currently available psuedo-assisted devices along with a good number of conventional plates and the assisted devices (like the GriGri) both in the field and in the lab. My personal choice for smooth rope feed, versatility and outright braking performance is an ATC XP and a mk1 GriGri, the MegaJul would almost certainly be nearly my last choice as the rope handling is miserable and it´s ultimate braking force the lowest I have ever measured.
If you want a guide-plate function (I never belay this way) then the GriGri is the best performer with single ropes and the Smart(s) the best with two.

In reply to jimtitt:


Yet it clearly does assist braking (a lot!). I'm more interested in what it does than in a label.


As you say it is a personal choice. I like it as do others. I do think that people should aim to try out these devices before purchasing since opinions on the handling do vary. I know of people who hate the handling of the Click-Up but almost everyone I lend mine to think it's great.


What do you mean by "ultimate braking force" and, given that it's so much easier to hold a fall with a Megajul than with an ATC, is it relevant to actually holding a fall or to safety in general?

In reply to Neil Williams:


Why's that? It seemed a very straightforward reply to me.


You can hold any opinion you want but to be so dogmatic and damning about something such as refined and efficient, not to mention popular, as a Grigri - and just read Jim Titt's last post - one would expect, when clicking on your profile, slightly more than < Heavy and not overly good mainly-indoor climber. But it's fun! > I'm very glad that you enjoy your climbing.


Sorry Neil, that's your failing, not Petzl's.


I didn't understand the relevance of that sentence?

In reply to Robert Durran:



In other posts on belay device performance I recall that Jim is a big fan of the ATC-XP and mark 1 Gri Gri.

Because in his testing, in a really "big" fall these devices perform the best. Other devices , whilst holding smaller falls well do not extrapolate this holding power to the big harsh one.

I am sure Jim will be along soon if I have misunderstood him.

In reply to Rick Graham:


I hope so because I am puzzled: a conventional plate never exerts a force as much as bodyweight (if you let go of the rope, the climber wil be dropped), yet a megajul will lock long before maximum force and then remain locked, therefore exerting a lot more than bodyweight.

In reply to Robert Durran:

basically it's the amount of friction the device creates. low friction on impact will lead to more slippage through the device which has some dangerous implications. High friction while also suffering from higher impact forces on your top runner is more favourable than a device a belayer cannot hold!

In reply to andrewmcleod:


I carry a bug always, often a basic guide plate, that's it, no other belay devices. They do their respective jobs on all rope diameters, single/double perfectly, winter or summer. Simple, clean, efficient.

Prussics for me, 7mm standard, just long enough for a 4 wrap French prussic on single/double ropes, bites every time, no excess prussic to cause it to loosen and it doesn't reach very high up rope. But, it's also easily releasable.

For the prussic minding on the device I was referring to a standard device, not one that autolock/assisted locks any way. It's simply the what if factor though..

In reply to Robert Durran:

Robert,

Jim's talked about this before on UKC (and most people, including me, still find it confusing/counter intuitive). I think the punchline is that these devices don't fully lock on high FFs (*). When you measure the forces, you have to hold onto the rope harder than you would with an ATC - hard enough that you probably can't hold the fall. So they make it easier to catch gentle falls, and harder to hold big ones. (**)

(*) They swing into their "locked" position, but the rope slips through.
(**) "Big" is defined by high FF, not airtime - a "big" fall is probably relatively short because there's not much rope out.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Plates like the MegaJul "lock" but only to a certain extent, using my 7.8mmm twin ropes (for which it is rated) this force is only 36kg so using it to replace a Prusik loop is out.
Depending on the ropes they eventually slip as does the GriGri. Then the total braking effect is the sum of the locked force + the force generated by the plate working conventionally as a force mutiplier with the belayers hand grip. Leaving the locking part out of the equation the MegaJul and it´s relatives are poor conventional plates (you can try the Alpine Up in this mode since they have this function). Within the normal range of hand gripping ability the ATC XP will produce 4 times as much braking force as the MegaJul. Even the Metolius BRD is a better performer and it is not rated for this rope size. The Alpine Up and Smart Alpine are also adequate performers at high forces but the Smart Alpine fails to hold my body weight so still requires an abseil back-up if one is desired.
Tested up to 10mm rope the BRD and ATC XP always performed better than the MegaJul, if stopping a falling climber is the prime criteria (which it is for me) then they are superior. Rope handling there is no contest.
The versatility of conventional plates to be able to adjust the friction by adding karabiners is unfortunately denied to users of semi-automatic plates.

In reply to jon:

It seemed a personal dig along the lines of "I'm a more experienced climber than you, so my view counts and yours doesn't" - apologies if it wasn't and I took it wrongly. I discuss things on forums, not personal digs. Indeed, if a less experienced climber feels that a tube device is far easier to use safely and more intuitive than a Gri-gri, doesn't that say something? (A very experienced climber will eventually learn to use whatever - a waist belay, a Sticht plate etc) - and isn't this how the devices are going - designed to be used more like a tube device but with the brake assist feature?


We are just going to have to agree to disagree here - I don't think they are "refined" nor "efficient" compared with the other options on the market. They do work, and they do do the job, but I am unlikely ever to think highly of them.

As to popular, VHS was inferior to Betamax, and there are many other examples. Something isn't necessarily popular because it is the best available design. Sometimes it got there first, sometimes it's cheaper, there are many possible reasons.


I disagree again. They are one of the earlier brake assist devices. They do indeed work, but they only work safely because people spend the time to learn their foibles. A modern, more refined device removes some or all of those foibles.

Why should we not - in any area - seek to develop and improve and redesign?


I was making the point that a device can work but still be sub-optimal in design terms and have been improved upon substantially by others. A tube device is better than a Sticht plate. I'd probably take the line that a Click-up was better than a Gri-gri.

Neil

In reply to jimtitt:

Well, I'm just back from a weekend cragging using my Megajul and it didn't seem to have any deficiencies. I am very happy with it and shall continue to use it.

Using standard double ropes (not sure of exact diameter), it generated enough force to hold a heavy (probably 100kg) partner hanging on gear and resting when seconding without assistance from my hands. While abseiling to strip gear I could confidently hang hands free. I also held a dogging partner in non-assisted mode and this was certainly just as easy as with the narrow HB plate I have used for double ropes. Once used to the handling, I have no complaints (though I havn't used any other assisted double rope devices). I didn't have to hold any falls but would have had total confidence in it.

It is worth working out how to take in slack on one rope while the other rope is loaded (it does this very safely once you have the knack).

Obviously performance will depend on rope diameter and the Krab used (I in fact also own a Microjul which I bought earlier but found it unsatisfactory with anything other than very skinny ropes), but rope diameter effects the performance of any device, so this is not a fault of the device (in my opinion many people use a plate which generates nowhere near enough friction with skinnier ropes - if you have to cling on at all hard when abseiling, then they are clearly dangerous for belaying in my view).

In reply to Neil Williams:


I love my Click-Up but you are not really comparing like with like because a Click-Up will not usually engage if you let go of the rope (though it will with even a light grip with two fingers!)

In reply to summo:


Although I have not used a Bug, I have tried plenty of other tubular devices and I would not consider any of them safe and usable with all diameters of rope. No device I have used designed for use with a single rope would pass the abseiling test I mentioned in the post above with skinny doubles. In fact I think a good rule of thumb is that if it is possible to actually thread a typical single rope through it, then it is probably unwise to use it with typical double ropes.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well its your rule of thumb, I guess you can use it!

My bug, on any rope combination, with a 4 wrap French prussik holds everytime and releases smoothly. The same with my previous stitcht, I've never decked out, dropped a partner, had an abseling calamity etc.. in the best part of 30years.. so i won't be parting with my cash just yet.

In reply to summo:


Nor have I in more than thirty years using tubular devices, but I am prepared to embrace progress in enhanced security at a modest cost!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Interesting... is there any other device that does, or is the Gri-gri the only one?

(I've never let go of the dead rope on any device to find out! )

Neil