UKC

Has anyone else read the Ben Heason article in Rock and Ice?

Just to say I thought it was interesting, informative, colourful and a good read - all the things that, according to a lot of people on here, OTE and Climber are not.

Then I noticed it was written by someone from OTE (the editor I think!?). Surely if he can write articles such as that for Rock and Ice they can be written/published in OTE?

(not to slag off OTE or Climber, I think they v. good but could perhaps do with a few more colourful, people interest stories.....)

In reply to Ned:

I remeber picking up a copy of R & I because the cover picture was stunning and thinking why can't British mags be like that only to find the picture was of Pembroke and the photographer was, I think, Chris Craggs. The American mags are better at giving photos and articles "the treatment" whereas other mags seem a bit more amatureishly put together. It looked a great article but I wish writers would not keep translating grit E7s as 5.13X, it gives totally the wrong impression.

In reply to Tyler:


How so, out of genuine interest??

In reply to Fiend:

5.13 refers to difficulty of a route for which a french grade equivalent would be 7c+ upwards. Most grit E7s are not french 7c+ upwards.

In reply to Tyler:

So it should be 5.12X?? Or is there any aspect of the 5.blah grade which covers factors other than overall physical difficulty??

In reply to Tyler:

I think if you check which routes that this has been referred to, they are in fact correct. Many grit E7s are not, BUT the ones Ben has been best known for are!!!

Examples include...Toy Boy E7 7a, At least 5.13 X considering the crux is Bloc 7c+ and therefore at least 13b.

Neon dust E6 7a, Again at least bloc 7c and therefore at least 5.13 X

These are just a few.

In reply to si m:

Yeah, noticed those but I think Obsession Fatale and Paralogism were down as 5.13 (could be wrong about that though). Not getting at Ben or the writers just a general point about the reporting of UK routes in American mags.

In reply to Tyler:

Are they being overrated then?

In reply to Fiend:

They're not being over rated in that the routes are proper hard, but the impression can be a bit misleading. Just an example of how the UK grading system works well for UK routes but prehaps doesn't travel well. Like I said it was more a general point than a slight on this particular article.

In reply to Tyler:

Okay, so you mean the routes are hard in terms of technicality and tenuousness rather than balls-out physicality, and the latter is more easily capture in 5.blah than the former??

BTW, I'm not trying to cause trouble here (well, I hardly ever am but that's a different issue), I'm just interested.

In reply to Tyler:

Answer is probably down to the fact the US mags pay more, and have a lot more employees....

In reply to Ned:


Get your pen out then Ned.

Apart from commisions, mags can only print the articles they are sent after all. As there are only so many writers out there, they are always on the look out for interesting areas/stories from climbers.

Have a go, U never know

Si

In reply to alex:

They are also have "editors" who help the writer.

Just read the Heason thing by Mellor...excellent stuff.

Mick

In reply to alex:

And better design?
Nick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA: I from time to time buy the US mags and tend to think that actually the quality of the writing isn't that great at all. The articles are often quite formulaic and there is nothing challenging or quirky about them at all.

Design might be better, the gear reviews better than Climber and OTE (but not Kirkpatrick in High), but really overall I think that Climber is a better magazine than Climbing or R&I.

In reply to Ned:

I was at Uni with Ben and the housemates mentioned in the article. It was their enthusiasm and encouragement that got me into climbing in the first place. I was there when Ben did Obsession Fatale, and can categorically state that the account is misleading and inaccurate. By no means was Ben a 5.10 (5a - 5c) climber at the time, and to the best of my recollection, had certainly led harder than 5.11a.

To say that he amazed everyone by dropping his harness and soloing it is a little misleading, because OF is a solo. The article makes it sound as if he went one step further than leading it and 'stepped outside of reality', blah blah.

The article also fails to mention that a lesser climber than Ben (Chris, whose surname escapes me now) also soloed the route that day. The consensus seemed to be that it was no way E8. My group of mates were all getting worried that things were getting out of hand, and that someone was going to get hurt. There was a feeling of intense competitiveness in the air, and rationality seemed at risk. This culmintaed with Ben breaking both ankles off of Narcissus, confined to hobbling around campus on cruthces.

Needless to say, Ben has become one of the greatest grit climbers ever, and his accomplishments are astounding. He seemed pretty astounding to me, back at Uni. It goes to show what an immense investment of time, effort and soul are required to make it big.

Congratulations to Ben.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

>Ben has become one of the greatest grit climbers ever, and his accomplishments are astounding. He seemed pretty astounding to me, back at Uni. It goes to show what an immense investment of time, effort and soul are required to make it big.

On the face of it, your third sentence sounds like a non-sequitur (albeit a true one, if you know what I mean). The inference I would have drawn from your first two sentences is that a considerable amount of talent is the main thing required.

I must say I do wonder whether 5.13X gives the wrong impression, although without knowing that much about the US scene I could be wrong. It's not the 5.13 but the X: I get the impression that X would imply a good deal more danger than is present on the cruxes of Neon Dust or Toy Boy, which are scary enough, but in a possibly ankle-breaking way, rather than a possible-death kind of way. Are there any US routes which are graded 5.13X? If not, then we must be doing something wrong in the translation. If so, I'd be interested to know how they compare - I wouldn't have expected them to be the hyper-extended-boulder-problems type. Anyone know?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

That sums it up - you can't think of any. I can only think of Stage Fright at Cathedral Ledge which is 5.12X. Most granite hard trad is a crack or it's bolted. I'm sure there are bold routes, but I bet they were done before sport climbing and bouldering came along. Some of the highballs at Bishop are grit length and they get an X and would be E8 or E9 if they were on Moorside Rocks

Personally, I think the 'X' thing is classic American over-hyping. The guidebook definition is something like "probable death for both members of the party" (or maybe that's A5??)

My experience on 5.11Rs and Xs is that if it's a bit run out it gets an R and if it's very run out or you need to place loads of RPs it gets an X.

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

Try some of Matt Samet's stuff In Eldo........Black Canyon...maybe?

Yes some in New England....at Cathedral Ledge (harder than Herr's Stage Fright) and some in Western Mass....Crow Hill....climbed by Tim Kemple.

Evilition and Rasta Man Variations at the Peabodies

Maybe some of Bachar's old stuff in Tuolumne.../Yosemite...

Dom....where are you when a trainspotter is needed?

M

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Haven't seen the R&I article, but translating grit grades into US grades is just as impossible as translating them into french grades. To quote Mr 'Baron of Boldness' Heason "Most routes of grit E7 and above are incorrectly graded"...or something like that...allegedly. In other words, we don't even get it right with our own system.

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

It's esoterica in the US. You live there and you can only name the ones on Grandpa Peabody off the top of your head!

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

Bamboozdled (or something) at Cathedral is a 5.12d/13a with sections of 5.11x...can't remember the ones at Crow Wood....or Samet's Eldo routes...

sorry Tom...I've let you down.

Mick

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I don't follow how my third sentence ("I was there when Ben did Obsession Fatale, and can categorically state that the account is misleading and inaccurate") can be a non-sequitur.

If you mean my third paragraph, could you expand on this?

In reply to Dom Orsler:

don't be so freakin anal Dom....you turning in to a yank?

M

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

Here we go again, Mick. Every conversation with you quickly results in you mentioning male nether regions.

You need to speak to someone about that, mate!

In reply to Simon:

Might well do that.... a satirical article on the rocktalk community coming right up...??

In reply to Dom Orsler:

I meant the third sentence of the paragraph I quoted. I wasn’t really disagreeing with you that a great deal of expense of spirit is required to be a top gritstone climber, but what I meant is this: if you know someone when they’re young and they stand out as someone who is going to be really good, and then they do indeed become really good, what seems to me to follow from that is that you need real talent to become really good, rather than (or as well as) time and dedication (which presumably you haven’t yet had the time to put in by the time you’re a student).

In reply to Tom B: It wouldn’t be that surprising if most grit routes of E7 and above are wrongly graded, given that their authors have produced them by a good deal of rehearsal and are trying to guess how hard they’d be in very different circumstances. From my distant viewpoint I’d agree with Ben H; it seems to me that the difference between on-sighting say Long John’s Slab and say Narcissus, while considerable, is not the same by a very long chalk indeed as the difference between onsighting say Jasmine or Monopoly and on-sighting Equilibrium or Dr Doolittle (and yes I do know that JA suggested that might be H11), and yet the difference is the same three grades.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I see your point. I was probably being a bit lazy with my use of language. I suppose the main reason Ben seemed astounding to me back at Uni was because I was new to climbing and he'd already been doing it a long time. I don't think Ben is exceptionally naturally talented, like, say, Chris Sharma (e.g. his playful ascent of Just Do It when he was, what, 17, full of glaring technique mistakes, when most of the world's best sport climbers with decades of training couldn't Do It, even with honed, perfect technique). Ben has worked VERY hard and for a long time. I think he might be 30 now, and has only just really made a big name for himself.

In sport, you get your Chris Sharmas and Leo Holdings, who just seem mysteriously able to do stuff other people need years of training to do, then you get your Kevin Keagans, and Ben Heasons who often end up achieving more than the former group, through iron will and dedication, practicing long after everyone has gone home, etc, driven by some strange urge which in itself is just as much a gift as raw ability. When you get the two combined, you have Pele.

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Nice analogy Dom.

Mick

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

As I live and breath, Mick gave Dom a compliment. I'm marking this day on my calendar!

In reply to Kurt the Canadian:

I've given him loads. He's such a sensitive and artistic ego he just doesn't realise it. You know what he's like Kurt, you being intimate with him and all.

M

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

There you go, Kurt! At last, somebody that truly understands me as the bleeding hearted and sensitive artist that I truly am. And apparently we're intimate, too. I can't believe we've spent all this time together and you don't see my sensitive, artistic side.

This world was never meant for one as beautiful as me!

Starry, starry night
Paint your palette blue and grey
Look out on a summer's day
With eyes that know the darkness in my soul
Shadows on the hills
Sketch the trees and daffodils
Catch the breeze and the winter chills
In colours on the snowy linen land

Now I understand
What you tried to say to me
And how you suffered for your sanity
And how you tried to set them free
They would not listen
They did not know how
Perhaps they'll listen now

Starry, starry night
Flaming flowers that brightly blaze
Swirling clouds and violet haze
Reflect in Vincent's eyes of china blue
Colours changing hue
Morning fields of amber grain
Weathered faces lined in pain
Are soothed beneath the artists' loving hand

Now I understand
What you tried to say to me
And how you suffered for your sanity
And how you tried to set them free
They would not listen
They did not know how
Perhaps they'll listen now

For they could not love you
But still your love was true
And when no hope was left inside
On that starry, starry night
You took your life as lovers often do
But I could have told you Vincent
This world was never meant for one as beautiful as you

Like the strangers that you've met
The ragged men in ragged clothes
The silver thorn of bloody rose
Lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow

Now I think I know
What you tried to say to me
And how you suffered for your sanity
And how you tried to set them free
They would not listen
They're not listening still
Perhaps they never will...

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Ur a poet Dom and Kurt didnae noet.

Perhaps Kurt should spend more time exploring the hidden and closeted side of your personality.

M

In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:

It might be quicker if he asked you; you clearly know all about it.

Sweety.