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De-cluttering the rucsac...help

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Once upon a time my excursions into the hills were lightweight enjoyable affairs and became even lighter when I got into mountain marathons, but then it all went wrong!

I became a member of an MRT, also did my ML and the weight of my rucsac soared. All that extra kit because you’re “responsible”, the “one in charge”.

Try as I might to pare it all down my daysac still weighs more than my mountain marathon sack used to!....everything in it seems quite justifiable!

Anyone else faced a similar weight issue? What of the “just in case” items have you been able to get rid of?
 JayPee630 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

I always have in mine:

Black Diamond Storm headtorch
Terra Nova 2 person ultralight bothy bag (with 2 energy gels, 2 handwarmers, and a SOL bivvy bag all stuffed in with it)
Mini first aid kit (includes a spare compass and Petzl e-lite)
Light spare warm layer in stuff sac
Hat and gloves in stuff sac
Phone, keys, money/card in Aloksak

Probably only weigh 1-2kg.
 mp3ferret 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

You just need to accept that, rather than you're carrying too much - everyone else is carrying too little.

Its only when something goes really wrong that all that extra kit comes in handy.

Marc
 Welsh Kate 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

I too joined MR and did my ML, but when I'm walking just for me, I use a different rucksack that means I have to keep things as small and light as I did before the M*s. I don't regard myself as 'the responsible one' if I'm out walking with friends, but most of them are MR or ML or very experienced walkers themselves anyway; we tend to share the bulkier emergency kit (bothy bag, medium sized FAK, blizzard bag in winter etc.) between us. If I'm just walking by myself I'll have a tiny wee survival bag or a TN ultralight 2 man bothy and a minimalistic FAK.
 planetmarshall 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

Well of course it's justifiable - it's pretty easy to justify things to yourself that you're unlikely to need. Does everything you carry fall into the "If I don't have this I could die" category (like a headtorch) or is it more "If I don't have this I might be a bit miserable but I'll probably survive" (bothy shelter, extra layers).

In reply to planetmarshall:

My kit list is very similar to JayPee630's but haven't quite got it to under 2kg. I think it's possibly the KISU and first aid kit that bulks mine out, although my first aid kit is only about 600g and can deal with some pretty "big sick" stuff.

I'm not sure if a KISU or bothy shelter (whatever you want to call it) comes into the "If I don't have this I might be a bit miserable but I'll probably survive" category.

Maybe as we get older or become involved in the M*s our perception of risk changes. Sometimes I shudder with the thought of "there but for the grace of god go I" when I think of some of the stuff I got away with, especially fell running when you're carrying jacks**t and relying on keeping moving to keep warm
 planetmarshall 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

> ...although my first aid kit is only about 600g...

"only" !!
In reply to exiled_northerner: You just need to be very clear whether you are 'working' or 'playing'. If the former then you just need to accept the extra weight of the kit that allows you to lead, supervise and assist others. If the later, you need to accept that you are 'off duty' and remember that people have no right to be rescued or helped.
The later is admittedly something it is hard (impossible?) to do when you are out in your local area but you need to do what you feel happiest doing. Most MR or First Responders I know tend to feel much happier carrying significant first aid and emergency equipment.
I, on the other hand have a very strong belief about the issue of self reliance in the mountains and am very happy with the potential consequences of going light and fast (e.g. my concession to emergeny equipment on NE Buttress on Tuesday was limited to a back-up mobile phone and 10cm traumafix bandage).
Basically, you just need to decide on what your personal relationship is with mountaineering and other mountaineers.
In reply to planetmarshall:

LOL ... told you it did "big sick" stuff. I reckon I've done quite well considering what I've got in it compared to something like the Lifesystems Mountain Leader kit at 900 odd grams ... not that I'm ever an advocate of off the shelf kits.

A smaller, more compact personal FAK looks like the way forward for me. I can pretty much improvise most things like slings and bandages etc but just got out the habit when I got bawled out of an assessment because my then FAK was little more than a roll of zinc oxide tape and a sanitary towel!!
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

nicely put ... it's getting that balance right for oneself. Will be putting a small minimalist FAK together tonight
m0unt41n 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

Exactly the same situation, although did ML before MR.
Since I also lead groups then my normal rucksack is similar to my MR one except normal one has big shelter but no helmet.

Feel the same, if something happened with group or came across an incident then I would not want to be in a position where I did not have stuff I would reasonably be expected to have given training. But if by myself then blizzard bag not blanket, 2 person shelter, not 8-10, etc.

Also the fact that I am use to carrying big loads over big distances so daft as it sounds it makes it easier to continue like this.
 SenzuBean 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

I've heard many people say "the only thing more emergency gear guarantees is that you're going to have to use it". I think that there's definitely a balance between too little, and too much. Some things I found are:

- Pare down the first aid kit. Slings and triangle bandages are almost certainly able to be improvised with spare clothing. You don't need to carry spares with you (e.g. spare examination gloves, spare bandages) - carry one and make sure you replace it (so be extremely good at stock-keeping). You don't need truckloads of pills - normally a couple are sufficient (cut blister pack to size and repack). Some people carry a "spares/repair" kit and have duct tape in there (if so you can reduce the number of bandages you carry in the first aid kit).

- Systematically replace gear with lighter weight versions. e.g. the TN ultralight 2 person bothy instead of the version with the window. My attitude is "20% saved on every item is 20% saved overall" (but tempered by starting from the heaviest items first).

- I've only lead a group a handful of times, and in future I'd be inclined to enforce people bringing their own safety gear (depending on the level of risk of the activity). No safety gear, not going with me. You could always have some spare gear in your car to give it out at the car park if they failed to bring it and you don't want to bring the harsh line down.

m0unt41n 12 Mar 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

> - I've only lead a group a handful of times, and in future I'd be inclined to enforce people bringing their own safety gear (depending on the level of risk of the activity). No safety gear, not going with me. You could always have some spare gear in your car to give it out at the car park if they failed to bring it and you don't want to bring the harsh line down.
__________________________

Problem you will find with leading groups is despite making sure everyone has minimum stuff before leaving, despite being categorically told they have ...., you often find they don't and that's basics like water, waterproofs, gloves.
So the chances of them really having emergency stuff .......

I also think there is a difference between walking with friends and leading a group you don't know. They will expect you to be the expert and you cannot expect them to know anything.

Also there is a difference in expectation between someone who is a trained MR member, particularly if CasCare, and a weekend walker in terms of what you carry.



 SenzuBean 12 Mar 2015
In reply to m0unt41n:

> __________________________

> Problem you will find with leading groups is despite making sure everyone has minimum stuff before leaving, despite being categorically told they have ...., you often find they don't and that's basics like water, waterproofs, gloves.

Is it really making sure if you are just taking their word for it? Is it out of line to ask to see their kit (especially if you're taking people onto something dangerous)? I think that even when leading a group, it's still a "team" - and having a strong team is everyone's responsibility.

> So the chances of them really having emergency stuff .......

> I also think there is a difference between walking with friends and leading a group you don't know. They will expect you to be the expert and you cannot expect them to know anything.

> Also there is a difference in expectation between someone who is a trained MR member, particularly if CasCare, and a weekend walker in terms of what you carry.

Fair points
In reply to exiled_northerner:

I'm not "fast and light", more a beast of burden. Just a personal choice. I carry loads of stuff which isn't regularly necessary. Here are some things which I carry which might fit that category and which you might want to get rid of:

spare socks (one pair for party of two, also serve as spare gloves)
spare hat
cable ties, multitool, duct tape
gps
spare batteries for headtorch / gps
sun cream and midge repellent in the summer
extra food, "just in case"
if I'm cycling and walking in summer I'll carry a midge net because I don't want to be eaten whilst fixing a puncture
a first aid kit which caters for comfort as well as emergency
ski goggles in winter
car keys, wallet, phone in a dry bag
camera
mini tripod for camera
shades in summer
waterproof trousers
spare laces
two man bothy bag
lots of water

As far as crampons and axe go, I use "if in doubt, take them just in case".

All of this is in an indestructible Macpac bag which will outlive me but probably weighs more than some people's entire kit.

My walking partner (Mrs Turdus) carries a steel flask in winter with some soup or stew, in addition to butties. All very civilised and unnecessary.
m0unt41n 12 Mar 2015
In reply to SenzuBean:

The only time I have seen this is when doing Challenge Events and you have to pull out everything on their list to prove you are carrying it.

Otherwise for group walks you would need to have issued an essential kit list weeks beforehand with clear instructions that you have to have everything or not going.

Leading groups as a minimum over and above what you would normally take:
Blizzard Blanket
Group Shelter 8 person ie enough for Casualty laid down, Carer, and relative or 3rd person.
Spare Waterproof jacket - I don't mind if their legs get wet and cold.

First Aid Kit is not going to be that big or heavy

Plastic clear clip lock food box is good for First Aid kit - you can see whats in it, they are really waterproof and you can sit on it / rucksack without damaging it and cheap. Also put a contents list in upside down first so you can turn the box over and see whats in it.


 planetmarshall 12 Mar 2015
In reply to Turdus torquatus:

Yeah... pretty much none of that . As for water, I drink about 1L before I leave the house and carry a small Platypus that I can fill as and when it's required.
 JayPee630 12 Mar 2015
In reply to Turdus torquatus:

OMFG that's a lot! Your knees and hips might not thank you in the long run. Someone I know in their 50s is now having all 4 replaced this year due to wear and tear from years carrying a heavy bag.
 girlymonkey 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

I found the weight of my pack went up when I lost weight from my body - as I was longer as capable of keeping warm as I used to be!!
However, if not leading a group, then a tiny group shelter and minimal first aid kit cover the 'responsible' category, and then I find it's a case of being realistic about what spare clothing you really need. I rarely carry a full bottle of water, most areas I go to have plenty (I live in Scotland!!), so I just start out with a small amount and refill as necessary so almost a kg saved there.
 OwenM 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

OMG do you lot carry some stuff. I walk alone 90% of the time - it cuts down on mutinies. I carry a set of waterproofs, a warm top, hat & gloves, map & compass, orange survival bag (never actually used one) a tiny first aid kit weighs 200g (it's for me not you so get your own), and a head torch. Along with food and water what more do you want?

In winter I'll take a warmer hat and top, and maybe some mittens. Ice axe and crampons if needed but then I'd sooner be on skis - do tend to take a ton of ironmungery when ski touring.
In reply to OwenM:
>"orange survival bag (never actually used one)"

....really hope you never have to!!

Your kit list sounds just like mine, bar the FAK, but then it's all the ancillary stuff that gets added in .... is that multi tool really necessary?, the spare batteries, the second map, spare compass, a spare e-light, the notebook and pen (albeit about 3 pages of A6 paper), the cable ties, gaffa tape (again albeit just a metre wrapped around an old credit card), the spare hat and gloves .... and so the list goes on!....

Big issue for me is to be able to switch to just look after me (like I used to) rather than feel responsible for other's well less prepared.

Oh yeah...I am an MREW CasCarer so I think that makes me place some expectation on myself
 Glyno 12 Mar 2015
In reply to girlymonkey:

> I found the weight of my pack went up when I lost weight from my body - as I was longer as capable of keeping warm as I used to be!!

>

Interesting. I've lost about a stone in weight over the last year and this winter seem to really feel the cold more.
Not just out in the hills , but at work, even in bed at night sometimes!
Sorry to hijack... carry on

In reply to Glyno:

Not at all a hijack ....the issue of keeping warm is very important. As I said, I used to be one of those who relied on moving fast to keep warm, but then became involved in MR.

For those who think they have enough kit to keep warm try this simple test: after being out for a few hours working hard, stop; put all your clothes on and sit still for an hour or maybe two. Still feeling warm? Maybe you've got lucky with the weather, but that's what's it going to feel like if you become immobilised or one of your party does. It's unlikely that you're gonna die from a broken ankle, but hypothermia kills

.....that orange plastic survival bag thing might help, but only to a limited extent
 John Kelly 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

short trip
leave the rucksack at home, stick your camera map and compass in the pocket of lightweight waterproof (if weather is inclement) and walk/scramble/climb until you feel uncomfortable then go home

long trip
soreen in pocket

winter
might need to consider rucksack (300g) for axes and crampons

dry spell
might need water bottle

if you can't bear to ditch the dead weight use science to help
after your walk, empty rucksack on floor, make two piles
'stuff you used' vs 'stuff you didn't'
if it regularly end up in 'stuff you didn't use' its no help to you, ditch it



 girlymonkey 12 Mar 2015
In reply to Glyno:

I lost 5 stone! It's a huge difference to warmth. I walk uphill in more layers than my husband wears for lunch stops in winter! Interestingly, in bed is the one time I am warm enough. I've never worked out how this happens, but I use the same warmth of sleeping bag as my husband, and a lightweight duvet at home year round, and I'm fine. But as soon as I get up in the morning, I'm freezing again! Aren't bodies odd?!
In reply to John Kelly:
>"if you can't bear to ditch the dead weight use science to help
after your walk, empty rucksack on floor, make two piles
'stuff you used' vs 'stuff you didn't'
if it regularly end up in 'stuff you didn't use' its no help to you, ditch it"

Like it.... but I was brought up with having the third pile --- "stuff I didn't use, but might have had to (eg FAK, headtorch)" .... maybe that's were it's gone wrong for me!! .....just abandon all that and hope that some nice chap like me leaves his warm bed when the ***t hits the fan
 John Kelly 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:
go on i'll give you head torch but only if you wear it like a buff

whats a FAK
Post edited at 21:13
 OwenM 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:


> .....that orange plastic survival bag thing might help, but only to a limited extent

But that's all it needs to do. If I'm going out with the intension of staying out I'd carry something else, bivi bag, mat etc. The orange bag is only for the unexpected, last time that happened to me was 1976. Why carry a heavy sack for something that happens that infrequent? Don't forget being totally knackered also contributes to hypothermia, how much further could you have gone on if you hadn't been carrying two of everything "just in case"?
 girlymonkey 12 Mar 2015
In reply to John Kelly:

> whats a FAK

First aid kit
 Bob 12 Mar 2015
In reply to John Kelly:

> go on i'll give you head torch but only if you wear it like a buff

> whats a FAK

First Aid Kit
 John Kelly 12 Mar 2015
In reply to girlymonkey:

i'd just got there, I initially thought it must be rude, thanks
weight loss, I concur, make a massive difference to your heat budget
 John Kelly 12 Mar 2015
In reply to Bob:
thanks Bob

are you a FAKer or not?
Post edited at 21:44
Removed User 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

> Like it.... but I was brought up with having the third pile --- "stuff I didn't use, but might have had to (eg FAK, headtorch)" .... maybe that's were it's gone wrong for me!! .....just abandon all that and hope that some nice chap like me leaves his warm bed when the ***t hits the fan

but you still have to rationalise some of the extra 'might have to pile': a TN bothy bag (i tend to go for a 4person one as it's still warm for 1/2 but roomy enough for a cas & a carer) isn't either bulky or heavy; a spare eLite (other small emergency torches are undoubtedly available) is the same.
What are you carrying in your FAK that can cope with 'big sick' stuff that you can realistically deal with as a single cas carer on the hill as apposed to managing until the remainder of the team/big yellow/red taxi arrives? A defib? couple of units of plasma? does 'make them comfortable, insulate them, stop them getting colder if self-rescue isn't an option' sound outrageous?
And in answer to Senzu, no, there is nothing wrong with (as a leader) asking to see clients' essential kit: someone's suggestion that you carry a spare waterproof is ridiculous - what about spare boots in case they haven't proofed theirs very well? Arrange a meet somewhere with a car park & by all means have spares available but don't take them out on the hill!
And there is also nothing wrong with sharing out the 'group kit' between members of the group...or when you're climbing do you carry 4 ropes & 2 racks?

i guess reducing sh*t by avoiding duplication is the key - does your mid-layer have a hood? you don't need a hat as well then...but i'm going winter climbing you say - so take a balaclava...are you walking somewhere without any little blue lines on the map & is it August? in which case take plenty of water, otherwise you are probably going to be able to find some!
 planetmarshall 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

> For those who think they have enough kit to keep warm try this simple test: after being out for a few hours working hard, stop; put all your clothes on and sit still for an hour or maybe two. Still feeling warm? Maybe you've got lucky with the weather, but that's what's it going to feel like if you become immobilised or one of your party does. It's unlikely that you're gonna die from a broken ankle, but hypothermia kills

Like everything else the risk of this happening has to be weighed up with the cost of carrying equipment to prevent or treat it. Then you decide what level of risk you're willing to accept.

I don't carry an orange survival bag, or bothy bag, under normal circumstances because I think the likelihood of me needing them are so remote that in an emergency my rucksack and existing clothing will suffice until help arrives. That's the level of risk that I'm accepting, and I'm comfortable with it.
 Bob 12 Mar 2015
In reply to John Kelly:

> thanks Bob

> are you a FAKer or not?

People have been known to call me that

Back on topic ...

The answer as what to take in a rucksack is, as ever, it depends. Summer? Winter? Alone? In a group? In charge of a group? But a little common sense and less "I'll take this, 'just in case'" should see you right. Often what sounds a lot of kit turns out to be quite compact but you shouldn't use that as an excuse to put more kit in your rucksack, because there's space.
Removed User 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

> For those who think they have enough kit to keep warm try this simple test: after being out for a few hours working hard, stop; put all your clothes on and sit still for an hour or maybe two. Still feeling warm? Maybe you've got lucky with the weather, but that's what's it going to feel like if you become immobilised or one of your party does. It's unlikely that you're gonna die from a broken ankle, but hypothermia kills

but you've got a bothy bag for people to hide in out of the wind & rain - as you know that will probably prevent hypothermia 99% of the time once you stop moving...being still (or even doing a little bit of gentle moving around (trying not to make it sound rude, although that would keep people warm & boost morale )) in a bothy bag with 1+ others is not the same as lying in a ditch as a SARDA body or even doing 'official team milling around' at the end of a shout

 Leearma 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

In response to the OP...

If you take all that you have and divide it into three sets: Personal, group, and emergency

Personal = your stuff

Group = is to protect the group, spare mitts, batteries for torch, food etc.

Emergency = Hill rope, KISU (a proper one that you can get the group in, not 2 person shopping bag), flask and other emergency kit.

Personal kit goes in you sack. Now doesn't that feel light.

Group and emergency kit goes in the members of the group sacks. Mark those sacks with emergency kit with coloured tape tied in a specific place.

Explain the risks whilst out and about the additional kit carried and when the weather is rubbish get in the KISU.

Based on 25+ years of going on the hills with groups. Maybe even extend the risk by letting them navigate...radical!

If you are leading a group regardless of age....try and let them experience as much as possible even the errors whilst you manage the risk before it gets too great...getting lost or wet always brings out the best in hill groups and delivers lasting memories...The best stories and most vivid memories are generally related to when we felt it was slipping away...
 John Kelly 12 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

there appear to be two contrasting approaches here

mountain viewed as a dangerous and threatening place that not only requires specialist equipment to traverse but are so intrinsically dangerous that special equipment needs to be carried for emergencies to members of your party and others
now this may be true on some occasion, recent Eiger thread showed how gnarly it can get
but in general mountains are uplifting, reassuring companions where serious accidents are thankfully fairly rare
 andrewmc 13 Mar 2015
In reply to Removed User:

The heat output difference between not doing anything (because you have a broken leg/chest injury/are unconcious) and walking around is enormous (I think I read somewhere between at rest and highly active can be a difference in heat flux of 7 times?). I would not like to have to lie down on snow in my normal walking clothing for more than 20 minutes; I have an emergency bivi pad in the back of my rucksack which I hope would help but its still very easy to imagine a casualty getting hypothermia in the hour or two it can take before you get winched up into the big yellow taxi (even assuming the weather is good enough for the sky taxi)...
Removed User 13 Mar 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

Oh, agreed, but (and not wishing to hijack the thread too much and with the proviso that someone like Dr.S is more of an expert in this than i) given that people manage to maintain their core body temperature without activity fairly well in the right environment (watching TV, etc), that heat generation when you're walking around is in excess of what you usually need (that's why you sweat when you exercise)...it therefore stands to reason that the crucial factor in this situation is probably the heat loss... conductive heat loss (lying on snow naked) is certainly not inconsequential but is only around 10% of the total: much more significant is radiative heat loss (ball park 50%) and convective (about 30%).
What i am suggesting (& i believe this is borne out by accident data) is that a bothy bag (ie a big binbag as someone suggested before) will therefore be much more valuable in slowing the onset of hypothermia - being out of the wind & rain will greatly reduce convective loss and once the internal environment of the bothy bag has warmed up (light a fire, put other people in there, get jiggy, etc, etc) then that should reduce radiative loss as well (so long as you don't keep opening the bothy bag to look for the big yellow taxi - so the ones with windows i guess might be more useful).
Obviously putting someone in a sleeping bag, then a bivvy bag, then a bothy bag will prevent hypothermia more effectively, but the point of the thread was to reduce what people are taking out because as someone very succinctly pointed out, the more you carry, the slower you are; the slower you are, the higher the likelihood that something will go wrong/you'll be worse off when it does!
 Ramblin dave 13 Mar 2015
In reply to exiled_northerner:

"Among other immigrants were the "Be Prepared" types, not all of them Scoutmasters. I once accompanied such a man. After relieving him of his pack for a short distance I was curious to discover its contents. The following items came to light - one hemp rope (for use in mist), guide book, maps, compass, protractor, torch and spare batteries, one Do-it-Yourself first aid kit, one sleeping bag (against possible benightment), forty eight hours' rations (against further benightment), and a small tent (for indefinite benightment). He told me that the Cairngorms were dangerous mountains, and that it was unwise to take liberties with the elements. "
-- Tom Patey (who else?)
 Bob 14 Mar 2015
In reply to Removed User:

I was out in the Dales today (mountain biking). There was a pretty keen North-Easterly wind on the tops, sufficiently chilling that you didn't really warm up even on the climbs. Stopping for just a moment or two to go through a gate and you started to noticeably cool. I stopped at a ruin http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/156647 to have something to eat and just getting behind the old gable wall and out of the wind meant that I was comfortable for the ten minutes or so I was there without having to put any extra layers on.

However it was cold enough today (about 2.5C at Ribblehead when I set off) that I didn't sweat too much so my thermal layer was still dry(ish). Rule #1 in cold weather is don't sweat! Having a fresh, dry set thermal layer can also help a casualty if they can change, i.e don't have a broken arm or similar.
 John Kelly 14 Mar 2015
In reply to Bob:

agreed, felt cold today, cold on bike, only warmed up half way up Blea Tarn bank
even scrambling felt chilly
a big like for your sensible use of topography to stay comfortable -craggy recess for butties or any stop make a huge difference
 Timmd 14 Mar 2015
In reply to JayPee630:
> OMFG that's a lot! Your knees and hips might not thank you in the long run. Someone I know in their 50s is now having all 4 replaced this year due to wear and tear from years carrying a heavy bag.

I agree, it could be partly psychological, but the time I've spent carting a heavy 'sack around and also carrying materials doing conservation work seems to have made my knees a little bit creakier or loose feeling.

Over time I think extra weight can mount up, the repeated carrying of heavy stuff.
Post edited at 20:11
 Timmd 14 Mar 2015
In reply to JayPee630:

> OMFG that's a lot! Your knees and hips might not thank you in the long run. Someone I know in their 50s is now having all 4 replaced this year due to wear and tear from years carrying a heavy bag.

In saying I agree, I mean about weight taking it's toll eventually, probably the lots of water would be the heaviest in his rucksack.

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