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Took some snaps earlier of a climber on this route https://twitter.com/TobyinHelsinki/status/576885012324298752 , then realised I never looked in the book to see what they were on. I'm sure someone knows straight away!
In reply to Michael Hood:
The prize is warm glow of satisfaction for being so knowledgeable! Well done Michael.
And thanks - I figured it must have been around that area, but I haven't done CC myself so didn't recognise it.
The prize is warm glow of satisfaction for being so knowledgeable! Well done Michael.
And thanks - I figured it must have been around that area, but I haven't done CC myself so didn't recognise it.
In reply to TobyA:
A weird route. Only ever seconded. The rockfax book has a photo of some woman approaching the crux directly from below. I recall coming in from the left with what felt like a very dodgy traversey mantle.
A weird route. Only ever seconded. The rockfax book has a photo of some woman approaching the crux directly from below. I recall coming in from the left with what felt like a very dodgy traversey mantle.
Post edited at 00:09
In reply to TobyA:
That is the most classic route on the best buttress on Stanage Pop, Missippi Buttress - except maybe Tippler Buttress with its brutal extremes, but that's kind of an oddity for the popular end.
But, The Link (the direct) is actually far better, a jugfest with heel-hooks and everything that seems E1 until you've done it and realise it's easier than The Sloth and much easier than FBD. Still involves the crux mantel though. Check out the FA details for that one
That is the most classic route on the best buttress on Stanage Pop, Missippi Buttress - except maybe Tippler Buttress with its brutal extremes, but that's kind of an oddity for the popular end.
But, The Link (the direct) is actually far better, a jugfest with heel-hooks and everything that seems E1 until you've done it and realise it's easier than The Sloth and much easier than FBD. Still involves the crux mantel though. Check out the FA details for that one
2
In reply to Jon Stewart:
The mantel is about 4b... just feels a bit off-balance..... hardly the crux. Both ways to reach it are really good with The Link shading it.
The mantel is about 4b... just feels a bit off-balance..... hardly the crux. Both ways to reach it are really good with The Link shading it.
In reply to Offwidth:
I've had to 'pause' (i.e. got stuck) there on solo a couple of times now, which is why I think it's the crux - it might not be hard, it just feels a bit wrong sometimes. I don't think you're right about 4b...but there are a few "4b" things here and there where I'd prefer to be on a 5b, e.g. Mantelshelf Slab at the Roaches. I think it's some leg-length to height-of-centre-of-gravity ratio thing.
> The mantel is about 4b... just feels a bit off-balance
I've had to 'pause' (i.e. got stuck) there on solo a couple of times now, which is why I think it's the crux - it might not be hard, it just feels a bit wrong sometimes. I don't think you're right about 4b...but there are a few "4b" things here and there where I'd prefer to be on a 5b, e.g. Mantelshelf Slab at the Roaches. I think it's some leg-length to height-of-centre-of-gravity ratio thing.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I'm going with what I would roughly give it at just above ground level. There are numerous 3+ problems in the UK with harder top mantels let alone Mantelshelf Slab (which I did at least help get upgraded). People pause because there because they can and some struggle because they rarely mantel. I remember getting the ledge after a few falls from the crux of the Link, as the remaining finger strength I had left me, so I was also grateful for the pause at least once (climbing the top arête with cupped hands worked surprisingly well, much to my delight).
I'm going with what I would roughly give it at just above ground level. There are numerous 3+ problems in the UK with harder top mantels let alone Mantelshelf Slab (which I did at least help get upgraded). People pause because there because they can and some struggle because they rarely mantel. I remember getting the ledge after a few falls from the crux of the Link, as the remaining finger strength I had left me, so I was also grateful for the pause at least once (climbing the top arête with cupped hands worked surprisingly well, much to my delight).
In reply to Offwidth:
Also disagree, it's not 4b imo
Did this route this wkd and felt every move 5a/b. Its unbelievablely fun!!
I don't think it's fair to judge against boulder problems, for example the v1 5b dyno at burbage south is much harder than the top 'crux' on wings which is 6b in the BMC guide!
Also disagree, it's not 4b imo
Did this route this wkd and felt every move 5a/b. Its unbelievablely fun!!
I don't think it's fair to judge against boulder problems, for example the v1 5b dyno at burbage south is much harder than the top 'crux' on wings which is 6b in the BMC guide!
In reply to ashtond6:
Well you might not like it but in the UK system although grades are subjective a technical grade is supposed to be the same everywhere and doesn't vary with position. How would a serial low performer like me be doing 5a moves with absolutely no grip left except when cupping the edge of my hands?
What 'wings'? If you mean Wings of Unreason it says in the BMC its 6a for the technical crux start not the very reach dependant top.
Well you might not like it but in the UK system although grades are subjective a technical grade is supposed to be the same everywhere and doesn't vary with position. How would a serial low performer like me be doing 5a moves with absolutely no grip left except when cupping the edge of my hands?
What 'wings'? If you mean Wings of Unreason it says in the BMC its 6a for the technical crux start not the very reach dependant top.
In reply to Offwidth:
Not sure where I expressed a dislike?
I know they are supposed to not vary with height, but I was just giving an example of where they do
Same applied to Joe's Slab @ Froggatt, would this move be found at the top of an E2 and classed 5c? I personally don't think so
Or the same for Crescent Groovelet (f6A)
Or maybe its just me!
Yes Wings of Unreason & it is 6b in my guide
Not sure where I expressed a dislike?
I know they are supposed to not vary with height, but I was just giving an example of where they do
Same applied to Joe's Slab @ Froggatt, would this move be found at the top of an E2 and classed 5c? I personally don't think so
Or the same for Crescent Groovelet (f6A)
Or maybe its just me!
Yes Wings of Unreason & it is 6b in my guide
In reply to ashtond6:
in Yorkshire they definitely do. Start of the sole? And that hvs on dental slab. Not to mention how hard a shipley glen "5a" can be, or a slipstones start move (ripper, 7up, etc).
good example, would be 6a on a route for sure.
> I know they are supposed to not vary with height
in Yorkshire they definitely do. Start of the sole? And that hvs on dental slab. Not to mention how hard a shipley glen "5a" can be, or a slipstones start move (ripper, 7up, etc).
> Or the same for Crescent Groovelet (f6A)
good example, would be 6a on a route for sure.
> Or maybe its just me!
1
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Whats your point, as V2 6a is pretty common? The other examples given are just arguably grade limits for an area (eg Sole start which would be 5c in the Peak) or just bad grades, some from old guides. Wings was never given 6b for the top move was it?
Whats your point, as V2 6a is pretty common? The other examples given are just arguably grade limits for an area (eg Sole start which would be 5c in the Peak) or just bad grades, some from old guides. Wings was never given 6b for the top move was it?
Post edited at 18:42
1
In reply to Offwidth:
Just telling u what my guide says and that it's much easier than a v1 At burburbage. Simple
Just telling u what my guide says and that it's much easier than a v1 At burburbage. Simple
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Start of the Sole is bloody desperate! Also, (slight tangent) how come Wall of Horrors is tech 6a when just the boulder problem start is font 6b? Surely these don't match up? Blame Yorkshire!
Start of the Sole is bloody desperate! Also, (slight tangent) how come Wall of Horrors is tech 6a when just the boulder problem start is font 6b? Surely these don't match up? Blame Yorkshire!
In reply to Offwidth:
Yes, I just have that problem filed as UK 5c from whatever guidebooks I've owned.
The other examples are of grades where the start seems to have been completely ignored in the tech grade (or at Shipley, the grade has been adjusted down for the crag being small, or for whatever reason).
Dunno. Not done it, so can't comment anyway.
> Whats your point, as V2 6a is pretty common?
Yes, I just have that problem filed as UK 5c from whatever guidebooks I've owned.
> The other examples given are just arguably grade limits for an area (eg Sole start which would be 5c in the Peak) or just bad grades, some from old guides.
The other examples are of grades where the start seems to have been completely ignored in the tech grade (or at Shipley, the grade has been adjusted down for the crag being small, or for whatever reason).
> Wings was never given 6b for the top move was it?
Dunno. Not done it, so can't comment anyway.
In reply to spidermonkey09:
Exactly, the technical grade is blatantly 6b, but since that's at the start it doesn't count.
> Start of the Sole is bloody desperate! Also, (slight tangent) how come Wall of Horrors is tech 6a when just the boulder problem start is font 6b? Surely these don't match up? Blame Yorkshire!
Exactly, the technical grade is blatantly 6b, but since that's at the start it doesn't count.
2
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Felt E1 to me during and after! But then it is the Peak. Not sure about jug-fest - I mainly remember a lot of poor slopers. I shall have to do Sloth sometime and compare!
>
> But, The Link (the direct) is actually far better, a jugfest with heel-hooks and everything that seems E1 until you've done it and realise it's easier than The Sloth and much easier than FBD. Still involves the crux mantel though. Check out the FA details for that one
> But, The Link (the direct) is actually far better, a jugfest with heel-hooks and everything that seems E1 until you've done it and realise it's easier than The Sloth and much easier than FBD. Still involves the crux mantel though. Check out the FA details for that one
Felt E1 to me during and after! But then it is the Peak. Not sure about jug-fest - I mainly remember a lot of poor slopers. I shall have to do Sloth sometime and compare!
1
In reply to Michael Gordon:
If you want to know what kind of poor slopers you can encounter and it *STILL* gets bloody HVS, try this one (OK it's been upgraded to E1 in some places):
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=39940
(check the climber's face - he's a solid E5 climber...)
Similar stuff, but Sloth is miles better.
> I mainly remember a lot of poor slopers.
If you want to know what kind of poor slopers you can encounter and it *STILL* gets bloody HVS, try this one (OK it's been upgraded to E1 in some places):
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=39940
(check the climber's face - he's a solid E5 climber...)
> I shall have to do Sloth sometime and compare!
Similar stuff, but Sloth is miles better.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I thought those holds were a relief after the finger-locking 'joy' below. CG is V1 5c (and very hard at that) in BMC Stanage But ashtond6 above quoted V2, where its no longer a potential sandbag.
In reply to Micheal Gordon
How moves feel onsight can be very different to that if you isolate them. When I led Congo Corner the mantel onwards felt 5a as I was tiring (I messed around a bit on the start and missed the easy way). When I isolated the moves (ironically by trashing my finger strength, leading The Link with 3 falls from the crux, before eventually trying it with the sensible trick; then having to relax and recover a bit at that ledge), it was patently obvious they were not. I simply can't get close to climbing 5a moves with no finger strength left.
I thought those holds were a relief after the finger-locking 'joy' below. CG is V1 5c (and very hard at that) in BMC Stanage But ashtond6 above quoted V2, where its no longer a potential sandbag.
In reply to Micheal Gordon
How moves feel onsight can be very different to that if you isolate them. When I led Congo Corner the mantel onwards felt 5a as I was tiring (I messed around a bit on the start and missed the easy way). When I isolated the moves (ironically by trashing my finger strength, leading The Link with 3 falls from the crux, before eventually trying it with the sensible trick; then having to relax and recover a bit at that ledge), it was patently obvious they were not. I simply can't get close to climbing 5a moves with no finger strength left.
In reply to Offwidth:
Oh I know. You have to climb an E2 crack to get to the abysmal slopers (without footholds) in order to earn your HVS on that one.
> I thought those holds were a relief after the finger-locking 'joy' below.
Oh I know. You have to climb an E2 crack to get to the abysmal slopers (without footholds) in order to earn your HVS on that one.
In reply to Jon Stewart/Offwidth/everyone else:
So as this thread has developed into a good ole' grade bicker - puzzle me this (from Saturday afternoon): why is Agony Crack HVS 5a Agony Crack (HVS 5a) and Thrombosis VS 4c (here) Thrombosis (VS 5a)or VS 5a (the guide I had with me), when the latter is harder than the former?
Right I'm sure that's you all good for another 20 posts...
So as this thread has developed into a good ole' grade bicker - puzzle me this (from Saturday afternoon): why is Agony Crack HVS 5a Agony Crack (HVS 5a) and Thrombosis VS 4c (here) Thrombosis (VS 5a)or VS 5a (the guide I had with me), when the latter is harder than the former?
Right I'm sure that's you all good for another 20 posts...
In reply to TobyA:
Is it a harder route or a route with a harder move?
Chris
> So as this thread has developed into a good ole' grade bicker - puzzle me this (from Saturday afternoon): why is Agony Crack HVS 5a Agony Crack (HVS 5a) and Thrombosis VS 4c (here) Thrombosis (VS 5a)or VS 5a (the guide I had with me), when the latter is harder than the former?
Is it a harder route or a route with a harder move?
Chris
In reply to Offwidth:
Nope, it's the start that's the actually hard bit, the top is just intimidating. Having said that, it's not E4 either!
> Wings was never given 6b for the top move was it?
Nope, it's the start that's the actually hard bit, the top is just intimidating. Having said that, it's not E4 either!
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I climbed Nonsuch with Tim and remeber thinking it felt stiff, that the slopers were a disappointment but it's not THAT hard though.
I climbed Nonsuch with Tim and remeber thinking it felt stiff, that the slopers were a disappointment but it's not THAT hard though.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Well, most ascentionists leading around those grades if you forced them to climb one then the other would disagree and find Thrombosis as adjectivally hard to onsight if not the hardest (I know as I've done this many times to unsuspecting victims (at least half of whom were not told the grade before) to illustrate caution with grades.... in the old days I could guarantee a first VS success then a complete spanking on a Diff but grading has got much better in modern guides). So we seemed to have developed a tradition of having grade markers for the top of a grade and nice entry routes for the next and Thrombosis and Agony fit those respective bills perfectly. I can understand why you get confused though, when most UKC voters seemingly think Thrombosis is on average a full half grade easier (they are wrong because Agony gets a half grade boost through anchoring bias and many early HVS lead votes, in the same way all the classic Stanage easy VS climbs end up mid-grade; Thrombosis in contrast gets 'anchored' down). Adjectival grades are harder to get right than technical grades as you need to compare many factors for a nominal onsight leader. Good enough Toby?
Well, most ascentionists leading around those grades if you forced them to climb one then the other would disagree and find Thrombosis as adjectivally hard to onsight if not the hardest (I know as I've done this many times to unsuspecting victims (at least half of whom were not told the grade before) to illustrate caution with grades.... in the old days I could guarantee a first VS success then a complete spanking on a Diff but grading has got much better in modern guides). So we seemed to have developed a tradition of having grade markers for the top of a grade and nice entry routes for the next and Thrombosis and Agony fit those respective bills perfectly. I can understand why you get confused though, when most UKC voters seemingly think Thrombosis is on average a full half grade easier (they are wrong because Agony gets a half grade boost through anchoring bias and many early HVS lead votes, in the same way all the classic Stanage easy VS climbs end up mid-grade; Thrombosis in contrast gets 'anchored' down). Adjectival grades are harder to get right than technical grades as you need to compare many factors for a nominal onsight leader. Good enough Toby?
Post edited at 09:59
In reply to Jon Stewart:
FBD was weird in that Chris seemingly ignored the old low E1 average on the votes and stuck it in Rockfax as HVS. The current votes on UKC and Rockfax databases are an interesting contrast as well (my guess is the Rockfax votes are for the old HVS label and Chris has given in to E1 in the new as yet unpublished guide). The two routes are very different styles but I would say they are both easier E1 climbs with FBD harder as a genuine onsight; given Kirkus is effectively an honest enough solo, FBD is a lot easier with good beta (the way most people have probably climbed it). However I've seen too many good low extreme climbers fail a genuine onsight attempt on FBD (and the 'solid' cam spat out on a couple of occasions when they fell) so I'm not ever buying HVS.
FBD was weird in that Chris seemingly ignored the old low E1 average on the votes and stuck it in Rockfax as HVS. The current votes on UKC and Rockfax databases are an interesting contrast as well (my guess is the Rockfax votes are for the old HVS label and Chris has given in to E1 in the new as yet unpublished guide). The two routes are very different styles but I would say they are both easier E1 climbs with FBD harder as a genuine onsight; given Kirkus is effectively an honest enough solo, FBD is a lot easier with good beta (the way most people have probably climbed it). However I've seen too many good low extreme climbers fail a genuine onsight attempt on FBD (and the 'solid' cam spat out on a couple of occasions when they fell) so I'm not ever buying HVS.
Post edited at 10:01
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