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Reinhold Messner: the man who made the first solo ascent of Mount Everest without supplemental oxygen and the first climber to ascend all fourteen "eight-thousanders." It's fair to say - without any over-exaggeration - that he is a bit of a "legend" in the mountaineering world. Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69614
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In reply to UKC News:
This is truly wonderful. One of the best summaries of what adventure is about that I've ever heard.
This is truly wonderful. One of the best summaries of what adventure is about that I've ever heard.
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1
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
No. It just makes me a little tearful for all those we've known who had a fantastic spirit of adventure, got everything else right but just didn't quite manage that last bit.
A wealth of experience and wisdom written in Messner's face... life goes on.
Mick
No. It just makes me a little tearful for all those we've known who had a fantastic spirit of adventure, got everything else right but just didn't quite manage that last bit.
A wealth of experience and wisdom written in Messner's face... life goes on.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
Exactly. Yes, I still feel tearful about some dear folks I knew who failed the last bit. The definition of a real adventure is that it's right on that knife-edge.
Exactly. Yes, I still feel tearful about some dear folks I knew who failed the last bit. The definition of a real adventure is that it's right on that knife-edge.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
mmm...I'm bit skeptical of any attempt to give an objective definition to adventure (or exposure for that matter). I doubt I will ever find myself on the north face of any of the 6000 m peaks that Messner talks about. And yet, I have had and hopefully will continue to have my own adventures.
Federico
P.s. An aside: Bonatti used the term 'adventure' also to describe intellectual endeavours. This makes a lot of sense to me.
mmm...I'm bit skeptical of any attempt to give an objective definition to adventure (or exposure for that matter). I doubt I will ever find myself on the north face of any of the 6000 m peaks that Messner talks about. And yet, I have had and hopefully will continue to have my own adventures.
Federico
P.s. An aside: Bonatti used the term 'adventure' also to describe intellectual endeavours. This makes a lot of sense to me.
In reply to fezzi:
Good point. What I do now is 'adventure intellectually', I think Why it's dangerous is that it puts one's way of living at risk: i.e. every book project you embark on is a huge risk, and involves (or has with me) running one's savings down to a very low level. One really can't afford to have two commercial failures in a row as a writer, but you have to take that risk. My latest book is dauntingly huge and will take at least another year to complete. And may be a complete flop.
Good point. What I do now is 'adventure intellectually', I think Why it's dangerous is that it puts one's way of living at risk: i.e. every book project you embark on is a huge risk, and involves (or has with me) running one's savings down to a very low level. One really can't afford to have two commercial failures in a row as a writer, but you have to take that risk. My latest book is dauntingly huge and will take at least another year to complete. And may be a complete flop.
1
In reply to fezzi:
BTW, I can afford to risk it now because I have a state pension and a v small private one I set up c. 40 years ago.
BTW, I can afford to risk it now because I have a state pension and a v small private one I set up c. 40 years ago.
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In reply to UKC News:
For me, the greatest of this era of mountaineering... the sky was the limit for this man. I'm fortunate enough to have met and chatted with him - a very polite and humble chap, despite how he is portrayed in literature and media... it was a real 'pinch me' moment for me... like meeting Hendrix, or Jesus haha
For me, the greatest of this era of mountaineering... the sky was the limit for this man. I'm fortunate enough to have met and chatted with him - a very polite and humble chap, despite how he is portrayed in literature and media... it was a real 'pinch me' moment for me... like meeting Hendrix, or Jesus haha
In reply to UKC News:
I met Messner once. Actually when I say I met him, I saw him sitting at a table outside the cafe at his Mountain Museum near Bolzano, and stopped dead.
"It's him," I said.
"Well go, and say hello," said my then girlfriend, (now wife).
"I'm too scared," I said.
At which point she told me to put my sunglasses on because I was being pathetic, and actually crying. So we went and sat down at the table next to him with a cold beer, and I tried not to stare.
Never been starstruck by anyone before, or since.
I met Messner once. Actually when I say I met him, I saw him sitting at a table outside the cafe at his Mountain Museum near Bolzano, and stopped dead.
"It's him," I said.
"Well go, and say hello," said my then girlfriend, (now wife).
"I'm too scared," I said.
At which point she told me to put my sunglasses on because I was being pathetic, and actually crying. So we went and sat down at the table next to him with a cold beer, and I tried not to stare.
Never been starstruck by anyone before, or since.
1
In reply to Dogbury:
In mountaineering terms, he is a true God. He once sat down at the same table as me in the Wadi Rum rest house. I was in awe. He came across as rather grumpy.
> I met Messner once. Actually when I say I met him, I saw him sitting at a table outside the cafe at his Mountain Museum near Bolzano, and stopped dead.
In mountaineering terms, he is a true God. He once sat down at the same table as me in the Wadi Rum rest house. I was in awe. He came across as rather grumpy.
1
In reply to UKC News:
Messner's are one of the few major mountaineers whose books I've never read. so - where should I start? recommendations please!
Messner's are one of the few major mountaineers whose books I've never read. so - where should I start? recommendations please!
In reply to d508934: ' Solo Nanga Parbat' and then dont bother with any of the others.
I found him to be a really nice guy Hard to believe hes now 70 though. I walked for a couple of days with him up towards the Nangpa La many many years ago. He was very competitive at frisby running round whilst others just tried to keep breathing
I found him to be a really nice guy Hard to believe hes now 70 though. I walked for a couple of days with him up towards the Nangpa La many many years ago. He was very competitive at frisby running round whilst others just tried to keep breathing
1
In reply to UKC News:
Super - "sport is not an adventure" Ha!
Quite a few thought provoking comments in that
Super - "sport is not an adventure" Ha!
Quite a few thought provoking comments in that
In reply to d508934:
Naked Mountain - found it hard to get into but persevered and quite liked it.
The Yeti book - a bit odd, not that memorable.
Naked Mountain - found it hard to get into but persevered and quite liked it.
The Yeti book - a bit odd, not that memorable.
Post edited at 16:35
In reply to pneame:
Absolutely. I've always felt that climbing is not a sport - although I do think of it as sport. Sports are defined by their rules; although we have consensual norms (e.g. no chipping), they just keep the game (not sport!) worth playing.
Generally I'd define adventure as (significant) uncertainty of outcome where outcome (significantly) matters. In climbing, it's most easily seen in Phil Davidson's great axiom, 'Adventure is when you can die!' which, I guess, might well apply to soloing Right Wall again for the photos and discovering en route that you're having an off-day...
Obviously Messner's talking about adventure vis a vis mountaineering - and who better to talk about it? But surely adventure can exist in many other realms ('There are other Annapurnas in the lives of men [and women].') I'd argue that adventure could, for instance, be purely intellectual. Andrew Wiles 'redpointing' Fermat's Last Theorem... Uncertainty of outcome? Massive! Did the outcome matter? Well it certainly did to him!
Sport climbing? For me, if I have to dig deep and give it my heart and soul, it's adventure - no physical penalty but potentially massive psychological penalty. (But then you could argue that, giving your heart and soul, you could find adventure in sport...)
Tricky stuff. May well have to invoke the Whitman defence. 'Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself...'
I've always felt that Messner had a very clear view of climbing as a game worth playing - and murdering the impossible ruined that game.
As the great climbing cartoonist Sheridan Anderson once wrote, 'Thou shalt not wreck the place!'
Mick
> Super - "sport is not an adventure" Ha!
> Quite a few thought provoking comments in that
Absolutely. I've always felt that climbing is not a sport - although I do think of it as sport. Sports are defined by their rules; although we have consensual norms (e.g. no chipping), they just keep the game (not sport!) worth playing.
Generally I'd define adventure as (significant) uncertainty of outcome where outcome (significantly) matters. In climbing, it's most easily seen in Phil Davidson's great axiom, 'Adventure is when you can die!' which, I guess, might well apply to soloing Right Wall again for the photos and discovering en route that you're having an off-day...
Obviously Messner's talking about adventure vis a vis mountaineering - and who better to talk about it? But surely adventure can exist in many other realms ('There are other Annapurnas in the lives of men [and women].') I'd argue that adventure could, for instance, be purely intellectual. Andrew Wiles 'redpointing' Fermat's Last Theorem... Uncertainty of outcome? Massive! Did the outcome matter? Well it certainly did to him!
Sport climbing? For me, if I have to dig deep and give it my heart and soul, it's adventure - no physical penalty but potentially massive psychological penalty. (But then you could argue that, giving your heart and soul, you could find adventure in sport...)
Tricky stuff. May well have to invoke the Whitman defence. 'Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself...'
I've always felt that Messner had a very clear view of climbing as a game worth playing - and murdering the impossible ruined that game.
As the great climbing cartoonist Sheridan Anderson once wrote, 'Thou shalt not wreck the place!'
Mick
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In reply to fezzi:
Isn't the definition of exposure "a big drop"? Or am I missing something?... honestly I'm not trying to be funny...
> mmm...I'm bit skeptical of any attempt to give an objective definition to adventure (or exposure for that matter....
Isn't the definition of exposure "a big drop"? Or am I missing something?... honestly I'm not trying to be funny...
In reply to abseil:
You might be. "expo" on euro-topos means bold or run-out rather than with a big drop.
> Isn't the definition of exposure "a big drop"? Or am I missing something?
You might be. "expo" on euro-topos means bold or run-out rather than with a big drop.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Certainly a huge intellectual adventure in the big blacked out house of his own analogy, but more of a tortuously dogged, yo-yoed or ground up ascent rather than a redpoint I think!
> I'd argue that adventure could, for instance, be purely intellectual. Andrew Wiles 'redpointing' Fermat's Last Theorem... Uncertainty of outcome? Massive!
Certainly a huge intellectual adventure in the big blacked out house of his own analogy, but more of a tortuously dogged, yo-yoed or ground up ascent rather than a redpoint I think!
Post edited at 14:43
In reply to Robert Durran:
OK, and thanks very much for that.
> You might be. "expo" on euro-topos means bold or run-out rather than with a big drop.
OK, and thanks very much for that.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Not a bad definition. Of course, as you say it brings into question what 'matters' and what doesn't.
As well as the uncertainty of outcome I'd add that there must be unknowns in what lies within whatever it is you're doing. There should also be a degree of risk involved. I think most would agree that onsight soloing (unless it's something quite easy for you) will almost always be adventurous. If you've covered the ground before then I'd argue there is too much knowledge for it to still be truly an adventure. That's not to say one can't have amazing experiences that aren't adventures.
So headpointing? Uncertainty of outcome, certainly. Risk? Undoubtedly. Satisfying? Often. But there are not enough unknowns in the route itself to fully tick the adventure box IMO.
The knowledge thing is really quite important I think, and should arguably be extended to include one's own experience and skill set. Someone who's never been on the hills before could have a greater adventure going up Ben Lui on their own in snowy weather and with poor equipment than a leading climber might have opening a big new grade VIII.
> Generally I'd define adventure as (significant) uncertainty of outcome where outcome (significantly) matters.
>
>
Not a bad definition. Of course, as you say it brings into question what 'matters' and what doesn't.
As well as the uncertainty of outcome I'd add that there must be unknowns in what lies within whatever it is you're doing. There should also be a degree of risk involved. I think most would agree that onsight soloing (unless it's something quite easy for you) will almost always be adventurous. If you've covered the ground before then I'd argue there is too much knowledge for it to still be truly an adventure. That's not to say one can't have amazing experiences that aren't adventures.
So headpointing? Uncertainty of outcome, certainly. Risk? Undoubtedly. Satisfying? Often. But there are not enough unknowns in the route itself to fully tick the adventure box IMO.
The knowledge thing is really quite important I think, and should arguably be extended to include one's own experience and skill set. Someone who's never been on the hills before could have a greater adventure going up Ben Lui on their own in snowy weather and with poor equipment than a leading climber might have opening a big new grade VIII.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Ah, Sheridan Anderson - a genius.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=553782&tn=40
I like the idea that adventure could involve psychological risk - and thus adventure could encapsulate more that the three great sports: mountain climbing, motor racing and bull fighting (I think I have that right...). This would therefore extend to starting a business, solving a particularly intractable mental problem and so on, as you say.
I think it is important that while the outcome has to be uncertain, it also should be something that you can control in some way. Either by stopping whatever you are doing or changing your approach - thus excluding gambling or investing (which some would consider gambling by another name). And, I think that ultimately you should come out of the other end changed in some way (hopefully not physically, although that isn't precluded) as a result of the commitment required - whether you complete the objective or bail.
So sport climbing, as we usually understand it, is largely, but not completely, excluded.
Ah, Sheridan Anderson - a genius.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=553782&tn=40
I like the idea that adventure could involve psychological risk - and thus adventure could encapsulate more that the three great sports: mountain climbing, motor racing and bull fighting (I think I have that right...). This would therefore extend to starting a business, solving a particularly intractable mental problem and so on, as you say.
I think it is important that while the outcome has to be uncertain, it also should be something that you can control in some way. Either by stopping whatever you are doing or changing your approach - thus excluding gambling or investing (which some would consider gambling by another name). And, I think that ultimately you should come out of the other end changed in some way (hopefully not physically, although that isn't precluded) as a result of the commitment required - whether you complete the objective or bail.
So sport climbing, as we usually understand it, is largely, but not completely, excluded.
In reply to pneame:
I agree entirely, though by way of counter-example I recently wrote a short article about an 'adventure sport' climb I bolted near our home in Ariège - soon to be published on here I understand. The past tense of Adventure is Memorable
> So sport climbing, as we usually understand it, is largely, but not completely, excluded.
I agree entirely, though by way of counter-example I recently wrote a short article about an 'adventure sport' climb I bolted near our home in Ariège - soon to be published on here I understand. The past tense of Adventure is Memorable
In reply to john arran:
Ain't it just! 'There's someone in my head and it's not me...'
Mick
> The past tense of Adventure is Memorable
Ain't it just! 'There's someone in my head and it's not me...'
Mick
In reply to pneame:
Do the Americans turn 'em out? Certainly seems so (see below).
Jeff Lowe. Metanoia. 'Now he's really climbing...'
Mick
> Ah, Sheridan Anderson - a genius.
Do the Americans turn 'em out? Certainly seems so (see below).
> And, I think that ultimately you should come out of the other end changed in some way (hopefully not physically, although that isn't precluded) as a result of the commitment required - whether you complete the objective or bail.
Jeff Lowe. Metanoia. 'Now he's really climbing...'
Mick
In reply to d508934:
Found this:
Reinhold Messner: My Life at the Limit, the newest book by the famed mountaineer, is a conversation between Messner and interviewer Thomas H etlin, an award-winning German journalist. It reveals a more thoughtful and conversational Messner than one finds in his previous books, with the "talk" between Messner and H etlin covering not only the highlights of Messner's climbing career, but also his treks across Tibet, the Gobi, and Antarctica; his five-year-stint as a member of the European Parliament; his encounter with and study of the yeti; his thoughts on traditional male/female roles; and much more. Readers learn about Messner's childhood, his thoughts about eating ice cream with girls (against), politics (mostly liberal), and his technique for killing chickens (sharp scissors).
Found this:
Reinhold Messner: My Life at the Limit, the newest book by the famed mountaineer, is a conversation between Messner and interviewer Thomas H etlin, an award-winning German journalist. It reveals a more thoughtful and conversational Messner than one finds in his previous books, with the "talk" between Messner and H etlin covering not only the highlights of Messner's climbing career, but also his treks across Tibet, the Gobi, and Antarctica; his five-year-stint as a member of the European Parliament; his encounter with and study of the yeti; his thoughts on traditional male/female roles; and much more. Readers learn about Messner's childhood, his thoughts about eating ice cream with girls (against), politics (mostly liberal), and his technique for killing chickens (sharp scissors).
In reply to Mick Ward and John Arran:
"memorable" - indeed!
As always, Mick, google to the rescue to compensate for my ignorance. A courageous story which I didn't know about - and, of course, an outstanding climber. Although the last part of his life I would not consider an adventure as there's only limited or no control of the outcome. I always think this use of "last adventure" is wholly misused. Last chapter in .... whatever is appropriate seems more accurate.
"memorable" - indeed!
As always, Mick, google to the rescue to compensate for my ignorance. A courageous story which I didn't know about - and, of course, an outstanding climber. Although the last part of his life I would not consider an adventure as there's only limited or no control of the outcome. I always think this use of "last adventure" is wholly misused. Last chapter in .... whatever is appropriate seems more accurate.
In reply to john arran:
So is "memorable" a necessary and sufficient or just necessary or just sufficient condition for "adventure"?
> The past tense of Adventure is Memorable
So is "memorable" a necessary and sufficient or just necessary or just sufficient condition for "adventure"?
In reply to Robert Durran:
Neither. If you do adventuring well it's an inevitable consequence.
> So is "memorable" a necessary and sufficient or just necessary or just sufficient condition for "adventure"?
Neither. If you do adventuring well it's an inevitable consequence.
In reply to pneame
Sadly (miracles aside) he's going to die. But he still has a choice. He could have got bitter; he's chosen not to. Instead he's pushing as hard as he can. What can he achieve? He doesn't know. But he's pushing as hard as he can.
Who can he inspire? (That's an interesting one!) He doesn't know. But he's pushing as hard as he can. And if, in years to come, someone out there that he's never met, fights harder on a route - or, in life, for what's right - then has he not made the best use of the end of his life?
Metanoia - it's there for all of us.
Mick
> Although the last part of his life I would not consider an adventure as there's only limited or no control of the outcome.
Sadly (miracles aside) he's going to die. But he still has a choice. He could have got bitter; he's chosen not to. Instead he's pushing as hard as he can. What can he achieve? He doesn't know. But he's pushing as hard as he can.
Who can he inspire? (That's an interesting one!) He doesn't know. But he's pushing as hard as he can. And if, in years to come, someone out there that he's never met, fights harder on a route - or, in life, for what's right - then has he not made the best use of the end of his life?
Metanoia - it's there for all of us.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
Well, we all do. And the important thing is to not have someone say afterwards "Nothing in his life became him like the leaving of it". Of course, what would one care....
Yes - he is inspiring even though, I would imagine, he is a bit scared. I'm trying to think of climbers who have got bitter at or near the end and I can only think of 1 or 2. Most carry on living life as fully as they can - perhaps going as far as raging against the dying of the light.
> Sadly (miracles aside) he's going to die. But he still has a choice.
Well, we all do. And the important thing is to not have someone say afterwards "Nothing in his life became him like the leaving of it". Of course, what would one care....
Yes - he is inspiring even though, I would imagine, he is a bit scared. I'm trying to think of climbers who have got bitter at or near the end and I can only think of 1 or 2. Most carry on living life as fully as they can - perhaps going as far as raging against the dying of the light.
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