UKC

Rock UK Adventure Centres has a vacancy for a Multi-activity Instructor based at Summit Centre, Trelewis, South Wales
We are looking to appoint a full time Instructor at our centre in the beautiful Welsh Valleys.
The successful applicant should have the following minimum qualifications:
BCU UKCC Level 2 and
SPA or CWA

Salary is dependent on qualifications but starts at £12,800 per annum

There is an Occupational Requirement (OR) associated with this position that applicants must be practising Christians.

For a full job description and application form please contact Helen at Job.enquiry@rockuk.org or by calling 01933 654103

Closing date for applications is 27th April 2015.

In reply to Helen Tilney:

Hi.

If I was to apply for the position and have all the required skills, qualifications and be the most suitable candidate following the interview process but not be a Christian would I still get the job?

Thanks

Run_Ross_Run.

In reply to Helen Tilney:


Wouldn't want any instructors polluting young minds with conflicting ideologies or, heaven forbid [did you see what I did there?], independent thought, eh?

How such a stipulation can still be legally permitted in today's society beggars belief.

In reply to john arran:
I'm just interested to see how the 'employer' can legally get away with it.

Religious belief is protected under the equality act as far as I know so I'm not sure what protected characteristic the employer thinks they can exercise in this instance.

Unless the candidate is to be instructing exclusively Christians and not people with any other religious belief, and that those customers request just practising Christians to instruct them then it puzzles a bit.

I wonder if only practising Christians can climb/ use the centre facilities?

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:
If you were going to apply for a job (...any job...) wouldn't you research a little about the employer, and if you have strong opinions about the legislation which you imply is being breached (...make sure you understand the pertinent employment law, H&S, whatever...) before demonstrating your attitude and suitability for the post?
Of course (...and I may be wrong here) but in fact you might have no interest in the position ...which leaves your motives for commenting (along with your attitude) open to interpretation...

and nope...
I'm i'm not a 'practising Christian'...I do have Christian values along with values from the heart of just about every other humanistic faith.

Edit: Or of course it may be that as Summit Centre is your 'favourite wall' that there is a bit of history here?

In reply to simondgee:

Mavelous. Its great that you've taken the time to read my profile. Apologies if I can't be bothered to read yours.

It's an open forum and like you I am free to express my opinion on any post.

Its great that you have a better understanding of employment law than me. Are you available as a consultant?

Many thanks.

Darren.

In reply to Helen Tilney:

I've reported the advert to ukc, if nothing else it would be good to have clarification on what you can and can't advertise for regarding religious beliefs- i know theres a euro human rights act on it but would be good to know for sure.

In reply to john arran:

To be fair it's within the law, and since none of us know the reasons for this occupational requirement it seems a bit harsh to judge their reasons for it. It seems fair to me for a charity promoting Christian values to require that of their staff?

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/discrimination_at_work/what_do...

In reply to edordead:

On the basis of what's stated in the OP it would be depressing if it really is entirely within the law, since the job description makes no reference to anything resembling religious education or pastoral care. Just a straightforward activity instructor role.

Just googled some guidelines on http://www.religionlaw.co.uk/FWChristian.pdf , which contains the following pertinent comments:-

* Employers should not expect to apply a blanket occupational requirement to all its posts.

* Employers can reasonably expect their staff to keep to the organisational values and culture and should bear in mind that people may be able to maintain those values and culture without actually belonging to the particular religion or belief.

Of course their "full job description" may contain details of all sorts of client-indoctrination requirements for this particular role but the OP suggests otherwise.

In any case if they're paying peanuts they're hardly likely to get applications from intelligent, free-thinking individuals anyway.

Their website states:

"Our centres are great places for Christian youth groups to come and visit. Our foundation is as a Christian Outdoor Adventure Centre and this ethos and belief still rings true today, even though we also open our doors to those of other faiths or those who have secular beliefs."

In reply to john arran:


...plus or minus £1-£2/hour, seems you have just written off 80% of entry level instructors as being indoctrinated and thick...

In reply to simondgee:

of course theyre indoctrinated- its a religion!

In reply to simondgee:


Based on a 40 hour week they're paying minimum wage. Given that they're requiring multiple professional qualifications to be held already and not visibly willing to invest in any staff training, in my book that's simply not good enough. Entry level instructors should be paid to be put through the relevant qualifications if they're to be paid the lowest rate legally permitted.

In reply to tom84:

Bizarre...John suggests an organisation wont get applications from intelligent free thinking individuals on the basis of salary...at what income level does someone become intelligent and free thinking? (...£12K, £24K, £48K, ? ) ...There are plenty of people who work at minimum wage (and less) who are intellectually more articulate, and independent minded than most posters on UKC.
...I have no idea how (other than through a massive leap of biggoted intolerant arrogance) that one arrives at the conclusion that following a faith or religion excludes an individual from intelligent free thinking...'

In reply to simondgee:

I might have guessed the throwaway comment would be the one taken up while the main point is ignored, although to be fair it wasn't worded well so was easily misinterpreted from what I meant to convey.

A minimum wage salary provides only just enough to live on, so with few exceptions qualified professionals should expect and should be paid more if they are to be happy and committed in their work. Exceptions might include:
a. Those using the job short-term as a stepping stone to to something better paid
b. Those using the job simply as a means of putting food on the table while they pursue other interests
c. Those who are tied geographically, perhaps by dependants, and therefore do not have other choices in their field
d. Those for whom the job is genuinely vocational such that very low wages are seen as acceptable
e. Those who have not the wherewithal or the drive to gain higher paid work in the same field
There are probably more that don't come to mind right now.

Assuming the employer wants a committed long-term employee with a passion for the job then options a or b are unlikely to fit the bill.
Option c is an unfortunate consequence of market economies.
Option d is what I suspect the OP is after but is being coy about the religious requirement in the job description as quoted
Option e was what I was referring to in my earlier post that you picked up on.

So in reality by paying peanuts they will exclude a great many qualified professional candidates and the chances of those remaining being intelligent, free-thinking and committed to the job will be greatly reduced.

In reply to john arran:

>the throwaway comment would be the one taken up while the main point is ignored
Really? Are you only bothered about the salary?
I think your 'main point' was pretty clear

>... instructors polluting young minds with conflicting ideologies or, heaven forbid [did you see what I did there?], independent thought, eh?

>...of all sorts of client-indoctrination requirements for this particular role but the OP suggests otherwise.

>...hardly likely to get applications from intelligent, free-thinking individuals anyway.

I make that 3 out of 3.

In this well rounded outdoor industry led by well paid professionals (...you know the career ladder intelligent and free thinking ones ) who are 'committed to long-term employees' ...how many allow employees to practise their faith by attending a place of worship on a given day... anti-theism is alive, well and thriving and is as unacceptable as any other intolerance...
I somehow suspect that the choice of language and opinion would be less caustic if the centre was a Buddhist retreat? Reapply those thoughts with this ideology and see if the same words trot across the page.

In reply to simondgee:

Why would I possibly think there would be any difference for a Buddhist retreat? Since the OP this thread has been about legal or illegal discrimination on religious grounds and last time I looked Buddhism was a recognised world religion too. In that context virtually all posts have been helpful, including your own comments about possible discrimination due to wanting to attend religious service, although this is now taking the thread further on a tangent.

My point still stands - for the 4th time if you see it that way - that if an instructor job doesn't involve specifically religious education then it should not be legally permissible to restrict applicants to those of a certain religion. Just like you shouldn't/can't require applicants to be of any particular race or sex.

In reply to john arran:


I have never done any work at this centre, so I can't be sure, but at another Christian centre which I have done work at the permanent instructors are expected to be involved in Christian teaching too. Often there will be a 'God slot' at some point in the daily programme, and that will often be instructor lead. The Christian centre I have worked at does employ other staff who are not Christians (cleaners, cooks etc), and will use non-Christian freelance instructors, but would look for Christian faith in their permanent instructional staff.

I couldn't be sure that this is the same requirement with Rock UK, but it could be.

If you don't like the job spec, don't apply. Problem solved?

In reply to john arran:

I think I agree with you John on this one. What is apparent from this thread is that yet again religion is a hot potatoe as always. Maybe we could just do without it fullstop and the world might just get on better together. Now that should open up another can of worms!

In reply to Jamie B:


But what if you really need/want the job and meet all the criteria required but are not a practising Christian?


It's a shame the OP hasn't replied to clarify the posting. Surely if there was noting legally/morally wrong with it then a short explanation could be given?

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:
1 of the criteria is being a practising Christian...have emailed them? yes...no...?

of course the easiest thing is to talk to get the job description and talk to someone who might buy into you...>For a full job description and application form please contact Helen at Job.enquiry@rockuk.org or by calling 01933 654103

In reply to Jamie B:


It seems pretty clear that logic does not apply to Bakers and B&Bs. If they discriminate on the basis of religion they get prosecuted.

It does apply to jobs like Priests.

So the question is why should 'Outdoor Instructor' get treated legally like a Priest rather than a Baker.

When basically non-religious services like schools, hospitals or outdoor centres get run by religions if they are allowed to discriminate on religious grounds when hiring or when offering their service it is coercing people that work in those fields, or who wish to use the service to at least appear to be religious.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Yes but if you don't like that the Baker says he's only hiring white folk, don't apply. Problem solved?