UKC

I have just spent my first few weeks winter climbing in Scotland, and I have to say I am quite surprised at the amount of tat around. Tons of it, on nearly all the routes I have been on. I have lived in France for the last 15 years and am used to seeing tat over there on alpine climbs, but I didn't expect it over here, where there is such a strong anti bolting sentiment. These ab stations (I think that is what they are, certainly on Scabbard Chimney where the guide book asks you to leave the abseil tat, but also on the way off the Douglas Boulder, or down Vanishing Gully) would be far less unsightly if you just stuck a couple of nice bolts and a chain in there. And a lot safer.

I had a good look at the tat at the top of the first pitch on Vanishing Gully, and it was pretty unsafe. I should have taken a picture but didnt think about it till too late. There was a bit of newish looking tat on a really old peg that had corroded to a knife blade which was cutting through the tat, a rubbish bit of tat on a good peg, a peg with no tat on it, and a good peg with a good bit of tat on it, but that bit of tat was not linked into the two maillons in the system.

If you cant bring yourselves to accepting bolts over here, then perhaps some sort of colour coding, like they do in rigging. Get the AMI and BMG to set a new colour code every 6 months and any tat that is not that colour should be stripped off the crags. Then at least the tat will get replaced routinely and the anchors will possibly get inspected a bit. Surely all the professionals who are using this tat to whizz clients up and down these handy routes could take an active role in this clean up and replacement of tat.

Just a thought, totally expect to get ripped apart for my views, but hey ho.

In reply to Phil Ingle:

Totally agree, bolted anchors are inherently safer and much less unsightly than the various pegs, nuts & assorted slings & ropes left behind for abseil points. Last time I was up in Coire an Lochain, was appalled by the amount of detritus abandoned by winter ascents. Fall-Out Corner was almost a sport route, such was the amount of (easily removed) in situ gear. Think will take a bit more to convince the dinosaurs though, who balk at the mere mention of bolts, especially in the mountains.
We've had sport routes on a mountain cliff in Scotland for almost 30 years now (Creag a'Bhancair, in Glen Coe), so why not tidy up some of the mess and install some decent, safe, environmentally-friendly abseil anchors?

In reply to Phil Ingle:

It has been long discussed in various contexts but I don't think you'll see much change. Not abbing off routes seems the obvious alternative to either loads of bits of mucky tat or bolted anchors.

In reply to Phil Ingle:

What baffles me is this; why is there always so much more junk (in situ wires, hexes, stuck cams etc) left on winter routes than on summer ones?

In reply to Roberttaylor:


Sometimes frozen hands, wearing gloves, time pressure with sunset so early, must be other reasons too.

In reply to abseil:

I suspect arming nervous leaders with a hammer has a large part to play in stuck/fixed gear too.

Phil Ingle, I really do see where you are coming from, but... If a person doesn't like tat, they can chop it, clean/replace gear etc. We have a great ethic of self reliance and I don't think an imposed odour code would be a good idea. I'm not going to replace the tat in my rucksack every 6 months just because it's the wrong colour.

In reply to Roberttaylor:
Another reason is you tend to really hammer the gear in in winter.

In reply to Roberttaylor:


Is there? Perhaps there is more abandoned gear - on a 10 metre gritstone edge its normally much easier to arrange to ab back down to spend more time with two hands getting out a stuck cam (although I've seen a number lost in to various grit cracks innards and left for what by the look of it is years). But Phil's point seemed to be more about people making insitu abseil points - presumably to ab off after the hard climbing is done, and probably everyone will know of some abseil point where they climb (non-winter) which attracts tat in a similar way.

The central issue is that the traditional climbing ethic is clean - 'leave nothing behind' - but for sake of a convenient abseil we are willing to leave lots behind (see pics here http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2007/07/superior-ethics-or-litterin... for a non winter example).

In reply to Phil Ingle:

I'm totally against bolts in the mountains, as I think are the majority of climbers. I don't buy the unsightly tat argument (in comparison to bolts) either.

You make a fair point regarding the safety of some of the tat/pegs on Vanishing Gully etc but at the end of the day if you don't think it's safe you can either decide not to use it or if really worried then strip it. If the ice is good on Vanishing then folk could belay off screws, though then you're right in the line of fire. When I did it I used the tat but placed a screw also and got my partner to clip it as their first runner on the 2nd pitch.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Why not?

Bolts could be painted to blend in with the rock, which seems less unsightly than different lengths of fraying tat to me.

What would you have against a no bolts ethic for anywhere other than where people abseil off?

In reply to Michael Gordon:

http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.co.uk/2007/07/superior-ethics-or-litterin...

This is much more unsightly than...

http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/enviro_hanger.html

...this.

In reply to Timmd:



'Unsightly' is a matter of opinion. For example, many get all worked up about being able to see wind turbines from hills but it's not something I really mind too much about. I don't disagree that large amounts of rotting tat is unsightly, but a bolt anchor gives a greater affront to my eyes.



For one thing it erodes self reliance in the mountains. There's also the valid 'thin end of wedge' argument whereby if bolts are accepted at the top of routes (for abbing off), why not at belay stances? Establishing good belays is a big part of some snow/ice routes in Scotland. Why not on the plateau once you top out? Not much decent gear there after all.

In reply to Timmd:

As I say, the best solution if you don't like the look of some of the tat about, is to strip it. For really tat-heavy ab points, replacing with one decent bit of new tat is a massive improvement if we're talking purely about them being unsightly.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

It seems funny to me, how can a few cm square piece of metal painted to blend in can be more unsightly than old rope and slings which take up much more space, when they're both alien to the environment.


Are there places you have in mind in other countries where this has already happened, to do with a policy about bolts only being at abseil points changing over time?

In reply to Timmd:



Horses for courses?



Places with bolted belays on trad routes? The USA and much of Europe etc.

In reply to Timmd:

true
But if someone doesn't see that, then you'll end up with tat.
And tat breeds means more tat being added to iy

In reply to Michael Gordon:



Fair enough.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


A bit of a jump to cite majority of climbers. Perhaps the majority of climbers who express an opinion on here. The substitution of tatty pegs and knackered slings instead of bolts is just arcane nonsense. In 20 years we'll all be happily clipping bolts above 700m and abbing of nice stainless ab stations.

In reply to Hay:

Thankfully most realise it's partly the lack of bolts which makes British trad climbing unique and wonderful.

In reply to Hay:
I think the majority of climbers who are engaged in the bolt/no bolt debate are against it. The very fact that climbers are not bolting routes proves that.

In reply to Phil Ingle:

Hi Phil. Welcome back to the UK. The Scots do do some things a little differently to the French. Many continental climbers love coming to Scotland and embrace these cultural differences. I would give it more than one season before telling the locals how they ought to do things - I think with time you will grow to love it and feel a part of it.

Scottish climbs may not yet be as littered as many popular Alpine courses but we ought to aim for perfection. If more of us make the effort to remove any non-essential tat or litter we find, we can have all our climbs very close to their untouched condition, an experience that can be shared by all and not just those fortunate enough to claim the first ascents.

In reply to matthew:

So is the general consensus that we should remove old tat and dodgy pegs, and leave good tat and good pegs?

In reply to Phil Ingle:

Maybe it doesn't have to be a black and white issue ( I know UKC Forum discussions are typically uncomfortable with the concept of grey areas... )

Perhaps it's time to accept that it's no longer 1950, and with Winter Climbing more popular than ever before, that the idea of some fixed belay stations in the honeypots of Nevis and Sneachda might not be a bad thing.

Those of us who want the wilderness experience still have the North West with its 3 hour walk ins to deter the crowds.

In reply to NottsRich:

The importance of the piece is more significant than its condition. You would normally remove pieces that have obviously been abandoned. Leave any pegs that are mentioned in the guidebook or seem essential, unless really hopeless then you could report them missing on the forum. Although contrary to the general culture, some fixed anchors are accepted as useful in the popular areas. You will develop your own judgement.

In reply to Hay:


I wonder how long people have been saying that. At least 20 years is my guess.

It's a slippery slope. When does a abseil station also become a belay station? By making that abseil station safe then you've made the belay for that pitch effectively bomber and therefor removed a large part of what makes the route what it is. For example I've still never climbed point five and I look forward to when I do when my kids are a little older and I can get to climb more, but if that had 4 ab stations then the climb itself would be practically bolted and therefor reduced to my level.

In reply to matthew:

Hi Matthew

I didnt mean to tell the locals how they ought to do things, but re-reading my post I see it could come across like that. Sorry to anyone local who was offended.

But - when you say "cultural differences" and "not as littered as Alpine courses" - that was my point. The differences are not really there. A lot of the routes I have been on in Scotland have been as littered as the routes I climbed in the Chamonix area, and more littered than the routes I have been climbing in the Ecrins.

I was just quite surprised, given the stong ethics I thought persisted over here, and thought I would comment on it.

Cheers

Phil

In reply to Phil Ingle:

Old man of stoer has a scarf of tat round it(a good few years back) but must admit to adding to it. I agree that a more European solution of chain or bolt is a much more less unsightly solution.

In reply to NottsRich:


Depends. In the absence of bomber gear (particularly in belays) many would take the view that an old peg (hopefully backed up) is better there than not there.

In reply to Phil Ingle:

I personally don't think pegs are appropriate on popular winter routes with so many other means of protection available. Apart from damaging the rock they're also difficult to remove with more aggressive axes.

In reply to matthew:


So actually you accept permanent and at times messy climbers' equipment (litter?) left behind in the British mountains, despite your fine words above about "aiming for perfection".

You only need to go to the Canadian Rockies to see where a loose ethic will lead. Currently there's a spate of classic rock climbs being retro bolted and a lot of spurious talk about cleaning routes of dangerous pegs and tat and putting in a nice safe bolt. Belays are generally bolted as a matter of course. They do obviously have complete choss rock and this probably contributed to the acceptance of bolts but the current argument seem to be tat is unsafe and so are pegs so we're helping safety. There's also the argument that because so many new climbers aren't confident on trad, don't like being scarred bolts help them ... feel safe.. Who can argue with the good old safety straw man. It also appears to be led by guides/instructors who want to farm some routes for the clients.
Well obviously putting a bolt half way up a pitch effectively divides the pitch in two. It changes the mental aspect completely, can you argue with that?
Anyway if you want to put a bolt in a Scottish route and change it for everyone you'll have to come up with a better reason than safety as they've all been climbed thousands of times.
If tats unsightly, everyone do your bit and clean it.

In reply to ColdWill:

I can't see the need for bolts of any sort in Scotland when the rock is so easy to natually protect. Surely a better solution is just to remove old tat as previously mentioned.

Btw something not always fully appreciated is that some rock types outside the uk are at times too compact to naturally protect. Practically speaking it's bolts or nothing. Steep, compact granite for example. Not the case with the uk of course.

In reply to Phil Ingle:

Im fairly new to climbing and in particular winter routes. I hear some good points made and yes untidy messy and unsafe Ab points are not needed. I always take a piece of tat with me and I've used it on occasions. There's nothing more relieving to see a welcome piece of tat in situ when your in a situation and if that tat is poor then back it up and if you have the ability or time cut the shoddy bit off and take it off the mountain with you. Perhaps what might be good is for the SMC or likewise to arrange a clean up or removal of these stations as a service to the sport, just good mountain management.
I've even gone back to places where I've taken a fall and abbed down and spent 30 minutes wresting with a stuck fast hex so I didn't have to litter the place. If climbers value their ethics then you cant have ethics without the responsibilities of maintaining good standards. Just a thought.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


+1

In reply to Phil Ingle:

The answer seems pretty simple to me, carry a knife and remove old tat as you go. Doesn't take that long at all, if I have to abb off something I'll leave tat so when I come across old tat on the way up I'll remove it which even's it all out. If more people cut the tat away than moaned about it there wouldn't be an issue.

I think there are a lot of pointless pegs on Ben Nevis, not all of them but I never know how solid they are so usually back them up with a nut which begs the question what's the point in the rusted peg if there's natural gear placements about. Often there's more than one suitable gear placement and often if you took the peg out there'd be another.

In reply to Sharp:

You do know cracks can often be iced up hence the only pro available may be placing a peg? If you come along in less icy conditions then 'hey presto' good nut placements galore, or not, it being the Ben and all.

Or the climber who placed the peg before could have been a tw*t and not looked.

In reply to Phil Ingle:

Someone mentioned that 'we are not in the 1950s', while someone else mentioned the need for 'safety'.

Read about Robin Smith and Jim Marshall's week on the Ben, in February 1960, if inspiration is needed.

So, why not simply put bolts everywhere that anyone thinks they may be useful, thereby gradually progressing to the security of a climbing wall, while also disregarding the style and ethos of many previous generations of climbers.

Fortunately there is a large library of mountaineering literature from previous ages which young climbers in the future may discover. After reading some of those volumes, they might then head to the hills with bolt cutters.

In reply to Ann65:
argh. i can't be doin' with the whole historical/traditional reasons. 'cuz that's how Don Williams done it', is not, to me, any reason why things should be done in the same way. Oh that's how you did it 40 years ago? smashing, i'm well chuffed for you. However, i'm playing this game for my own reasons.
Please though, don't mistake me for being in the straight up pro-bolts camp. I think there are many good reasons why we should resist these things, it's just none of them are historical.
well, maybe one: while the standard and scale at which winter and alpine climbing has been done has sky rocketed, However, despite the relatively small scale and unreliable conditions, Scottish winter has stood the test of time as a unique and, quite frankly, sometimes brutal challenge. I think its likely if we'd bolted up the scottish mountains, then a lot of our quality routes would have ceased to be relevant in terms of 'hard climbing'.

In reply to Phil Ingle:
I find it fantastically sad that anyone on here is even entertaining for one second the idea that any bolts might be appropriate at all in Scottish winter climbing. I am also absolutely confident that any bolts placed would be immediately chopped. It won't happen.

And the argument that bolts are less unsightly than tat misses the main point by such a huge margin that I am left almost speechless.

As for this idea of permanently equipping abseil stations. What abseil stations? I can't think of any routes which don't end with an easy descent, so the idea is absurd.

In reply to stuartpicken:
smashing, i'm well chuffed for you. However, i'm playing this game for my own reasons.

And in this one sentence you sum up the selfish mentality that is, ironically, leading us rapidly off the edge of the cliff.
The principal of treating the wilderness as a guesthouse that should be left as it was found seems to have no place in the me me me society of today. Extrapolate your own thinking and realsise you're no better than the Chinese wanting rhino horn.

In reply to Mike Lates:


And leaving pegs and tat is acceptable? What's the difference to leaving bolts? I fully agree with your comment, but I don't think you can use it as an anti-bolting reason.

+1 for no bolts btw.

In reply to NottsRich:

Why do you want a bolt? If tat etc is a problem climb to the top of the route or take a knife, strip it & place your own. A real climbing skill that might come in useful some day. Another "dated" philosophy was that cragging on the wee climbs in the UK was practice for the greater ranges & some "real" climbing. Alps & far too many other areas are getting bolts but real adventurers will seek out & thrive the wild environment alone. Climb for excitement not just numbers & ticks.

In reply to Phil Ingle:

At the end of the day, some would say, there 's loads of rotten tat on certain routes that everyone uses and would be much better if replaced by something much safer and nicer to look at, I agree?
As to what to do about, it generally comes down to who shouts the loudest, their ego or their own selfish and commercial interests!
Most sensible folk I know would be delighted that some of this tat was removed and replaced with something safer.
I remember when the Cuillin Ridge had good cairns, more obvious paths, before these were removed and around the same time the In Pinn had the abseil cable installed, so please, no bullshit please...
Cheers Ron

In reply to Phil Ingle:

Totally agree. Guides and instructors should be given free kit to replace worn equipment on routes. I would also rig ropes to enable climbers to approach routes more safely minimizing the risk of avalanche, especially on slopes that are known to go. To me minimizing objective dangers before a climb is as important as placing pro when on the climb. Correct me if I am wrong, but roughly thirty climbers mountaineers have moved on this season due to avalanches, so lets get wise and protect the slopes leading up to popular climbs.

In reply to rlade:


Hopefully this post is as tongue buried in cheek as possible but the flaw in any plan to "tidy up" is responsibility and I don't want an implication that any anchor is safe here in the Cuillin. The geology & weathering makes any block of rock potentially loose no matter how solid looking. Half of the conventional abseil points on the Traverse are on blocks that move. I remove tat regularly but the sight of atrociously worn, weathered or rigged tat should awaken the sense of self-responsibility rather than be damned as an eyesore.
They have a bit of weather & loose rock on the Ben too & the same arguement applies.

In reply to Mike Lates:

At the end of the day, Mike, given your argument, the cable on the In Pinn should be removed, is this correct?
Cheers Ron

In reply to rlade:

Correct me if I am wrong.


You are very wrong, fixed ropes to approach routes in Scotland, ?

I assume you are taking the piss

Mr Tatlock

In reply to Ron Walker:

I'd be inf avour of removing the lot including the in pinn cable

In reply to Ron Walker:


My thoughts exactly. Presumably Mike is up there often enough to maintain neat and safe abseil tat. It's a particular shame that many novices encounter the unsatisfactory existence of the chain on one of their first abseils in the mountains.

Apart from that I agree entirely with Mike and am appalled by your inexcusable (as an instructor) attitude to fixed belays in the mountains.

In reply to NottsRich:


Pegs exploit a natural weakness in the rock. Bolts do not. It is a massive fundamental difference. I find it extraordinary that there are people around who need this pointed out to them.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Bolts exploit a natural weakness in the climber....

In reply to Phil Ingle:

Self-reliance is the key phrase here. There's a certain skill and craft in constructing a belay which is lost when all one has to do is clip a bolt. Mountain craft is a valuable thing to learn and for future generations to learn and should not be lost for the sake of convenience or tidiness.

And besides that, you won't be even able to find the bolts when everything is covered in snow and ice.

In reply to Ron Walker:
My arguement is against bolting rather than using natural anchors. If someone equips the TD Gap ab with bailing twine again I will remove it but I will replace and have to leave something so I'm not purist (puerile?) enough to suggest we all try to abseil from rocks smooth enough to retrieve the rope.
Gerry placed the hawsers for his own use; something he was happy to point out to anyone who accused him of hogging it! There are plenty of other possible anchors for anyone in a hurry & with the initiative, tat for rigging it etc.
I check the Pinn hawser frequently as I do with any abseil anchor and that is my message- we're all responsible for our own decisions on the hill. Any form of organised rigging of anchors implies approval and a shift of responsibility away from the climber to the well-meaning but misguided.

In reply to Phil Ingle: i think its pretty simple, cut the old tat, replace with new. If you can't place protection for abbing off, you shouldn't be on trad routes.
For the person who said history shouldn't count for the style in which climb today, it is fundamental to how we climb today, the term trad means traditional climbing. There will all ways be lessons to be learnt from the past, isn't a a well placed wire,swedge better than a dodgy peg?

If you want to bolt for safety/ ease of use then you're playing the wrong game. every skill i've learnt in the mountains has taught me valuable lessons for life away from them, please don't remove the sense of danger, and adventure from the hills. Let us all build our skills, and experience at our own speed, climb the easier routes, the lower hills, and then when you've the skill and judgment you can climb those classic routes with the knowledge to build a safe anchor in practically all situations.

Iv'e never climbed a route in the UK that i would want bolted.

In reply to Mike Lates:

Hi Mike, firstly I don't want bolts, hence my "+1 to no bolts" comment, but maybe I worded that badly.

Unless I misunderstood you, you were saying that you felt that more people now treat the 'wilderness' without the respect that they used to. (I feel the same.) You used this as a reason for not using bolts, presumably in order to help preserve the wilderness and sense of adventure and self reliance. (I fully agree with that too.) I thought it odd then that you seem happy with pegs/tat being left in a lot of places. Like I said I agree with your not wanting bolts, I'm just trying to understand your reasoning for it. Please don't presume that I climb for numbers and ticks, or have never had to build an abseil anchor or use any 'real climbing skill'.


Robert Durran, do not quote me out of context.

In reply to NottsRich:

I don't think I did. You seemed to be suggesting (correct me if I am wrong) that Mike should not make a distinction between pegs/tat and bolts by pointing out that there is really no difference in a "leave no trace" sense (and I would agree - there isn't). But I presume Mike was making a distinction (again he can correct me if I am wrong) on the much more fundamental (from a climbing point of view) difference which is in climbing ethics and self reliance; you seemed to have overlooked or been unaware of the distinction.

In reply to everyone:

There are many good arguments for replacing cord with bolts; tidiness, safety and convenience being the main ones.

And yes, we could focus on the most popular crags like the Northern Corries and maintain other areas as "wilderness". However...we've already had that conversation. Lowland crags and quarries could be bolted and all the mountains would be saved as "wilderness". All those people who were being mocked for 'thin end of the wedge' arguments are proved right every time this issue crops up on this site. If sport routes in Glen Coe are being used as a reason to bolt other mountain crags then maybe they shouldn't have gone in.

The real point is this -- it's not about tidiness, it's about self-reliance and adventure. If someone is not capable of climbing in the mountains without bringing a knife to tidy up and some cord to abseil off then the mountains are just too much effort for them. There are plenty of smaller, lower crags where they will have more fun.

To me, half the point of trad climbing is that I can climb on the limited amount of rock we have in this country and, despite many having gone before me, I can have an adventurous experience that, barring the guidebook, is as close as possible to the new route experience. When I've climbed on remote mountains abroad I don't think twice about bringing ab tat. Similarly I don't think twice about using it here in the UK. I am totally up to the challenge of spending £10 on some cord and spending 5 minutes rigging a safe descent. And yes, I have cleaned up ab stations in the past. I don't always do it, but I know I should.

Are the above statements elitist? Yes. Of course they are. That's the entire point of this sport. I can't climb most of the routes in this country because they're too hard for me, or too scary. I'm ok with that, but I'm proud of the ones which I've worked hard for and succeeded on.

I agree that cliffs can be very unsightly with rusting pegs and ab tat, but the answer isn't bolts. I often suspect that most of the people (certainly not all) who suggest using bolts for reason of environment are actually keen for reason of convenience. The lack of bolts is what makes climbing in this country exciting and special. The routes don't have to be dangerous (though they can if you want them to be) but they do have to have that sense of uncertainty that makes for an adventure. Not being entirely sure how you'll get down off a route is part of the adventure; putting in ab stations ruins that.

Bring a knife and your own cord. Stop expecting to rely on others and leave the route as you'd like to find it.

In reply to Phil Ingle:

All the belay point on Vanishing needs is for someone to spend a bit of time re-equalising the remaining good pegs. Take some good cord and do it on abseil. Way easier (and more palatable) than getting a Hilti up there!

In reply to NottsRich:

Morning Rich, yes apologies for seeming to ignore your no bolts comment and I should have been replying to the OP rather than you.

In reply to Phil Ingle:

Neither professional organisation would be remotely interested, I am fairly certain. Instructors and Guides don't really buy into any notion of "safety by numbers" and would prefer to use lengthy experience to make dynamic risk assessment as we go. Each anchor scenario will be different.

And yes, I always carry a knife and new tat.

In reply to Flashy:


That wasn't really the argument, at least not the one I was making. It's the volume of people that has fuelled the accumulation of tat - and hence the bolting discussion - on the more popular mountain crags, not the existence of bolts in Glencoe. It's a shame - but the battle to preserve any kind of 'wilderness experience' in the Northern Corries and perhaps to a lesser extent, Nevis, is already lost.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Pegs shouldn't get off lightly though. If pegs are in-situ, then the weakness in the rock has been exploited by someone else, and clipping them ever-after is no less of a compromise of self-sufficiency than clipping bolts (apart from varying degrees to which you may be able to assess their quality).

I accept that there are places that nothing but pegs will go in, and that there are certain routes that depend on pegs to remain climbable with a reasonable degree of safety - those are probably best debated on a case-by-case basis (if it means a longer runout and an extra grade I'd generally say let's have that...if the demise of the Eroica peg is accepted, why not hundreds of others...?) But I have climbed so many routes around the country that are splattered with totally redundant pegs.

I know in a lot of places the consensus is not to replace pegs, but equally I've clipped some pretty fresh ones lately, in some cases within a handspan of a good wire placement. I also realise that part of the reason pointless pegs stay there is that it's no one's special responsibility to go around hammering them out, but I feel like if one did, it might not be uncontroversial.

Although ethical 'purity' is a daft illusion and I'm not against plenty of existing compromises, or closed to prospective ones, I think we could do so much better. Tidying tat to a functional minimum for starters.

P.S. I'm not picking an argument with anything you said particularly Robert, just using your comment as a springboard for my own wee gripe of the week.

In reply to Andy Moles:


I agree, but there is still a big aesthetic difference in that pegs exploit a natural weakness in the rock (after all, climbing is all about getting up a mountain/cliff/boulder using what nature permits for holds and, except in the case of bolts, protection) even if there is still a drop in self sufficiency. I would argue that in situ pegs are much closer ethically to in situ jammed wires (and there are plenty of them) than to bolts; I despair when people suggest replacing a peg on a "like for like" basis with a bolt - they really have missed the point!

In reply to Robert Durran:
Sorry Robert, in your last example I disagree. I understand and appreciate your point, but I personally feel a load of tat dangling from a ruined peg scar stuffed full of rusting metal is unacceptable littering. The visual impact on the natural world to others who do not climb is often pretty selfish. A neat bolt in the same place has my favour typically.

I appreciate it changes the character of the route... a bomber bolt vs a nearly bomber peg (in most cases).

In reply to Robert Durran:

I don't really get this argument... yes the pegs exploit a natural weakness in the rock, but only the person that put them there did that! And why did they put them there? For everyone else to use them, to safely belay or retreat from the mountain without losing any gear. So they may as well be a bolt- you are clipping a convenient, immovable in situ "thing" anyway, so why not be a safer, lower maintenance and lower profile bolt? If you really have a problem with using in situ gear then by all means leave your own gear at the abseil- I'll pick it up for you

Your obsession with self sufficiency is a bit elitist. What exactly is your problem with making the mountains safer for others to enjoy? You accept that at some times there is a need for in-situ gear, so why faff about making people shit themselves abbing off rusty toothpick pegs? At the end of the day I climb for fun, and climbing is a lot more fun when you aren't dead- if a couple of little bolts at a belay facilitate that at the cost of winding up the elite minority, then I'm all for it.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


Setting aside the fact that the tat should be tidied up, do you know of any cases where a non climber has spotted pegs with a bunch of tat and been aesthetically offended by it?


I'm not sure what you are actually trying to say here!

In reply to mishabruml:


Yeah, Robert. You could always just not clip the bolts...

In reply to planetmarshall:


I never thought of that! Then everyone can be happy!

In reply to mishabruml:

No, a couple of bolts at the belay is f*cking bullshit, if you can't cope with Scottish winter climbing in its natural state then do something else. The mountains are elitist, that's how they are, lets take all the in situ gear out including pegs. Sport climbing has its place, but not in Scottish style winter climbing.

In reply to mishabruml:


And everybody who clips them.


No, not ususally.


Because bolts don't exploit a natural weakness in the rock...........


Because it undermines the spirit and traditions and joy of climbing in this country for the majority of climbers who can be bothered to learn how to look after themselves. If that is elitist (which is not a dirty word by the way) then so be it. Climbing is by its very nature elitist (not everyone is going to be capable of climbing every route).

In reply to Robert Durran:

It should be. I agree. Often it isn't unfortunately. With regard to your later question: I cannot say that I have. However that should not be an argument for littering being acceptable. It's not like chalk that washes away.


I was empathising with the only substantial argument against replacing pegs with bolts... that it changes the character of the route. But I was also saying that even this change is minimal given pegs tend to be pretty bomber (like bolts).

EDIT: Just to be clear. I personally would never replace a peg with a bolt on a route I did not first ascend.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Elitism is good. The mountains are elitist. The rocks are elitist. Shall I chip some E8 like End of the Affair as I can't do it at the moment?

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

So if non climbers don't notice pegs and tat, it should come down to whether climbers prefer the "litter" of pegs/tat or bolts (or neither).


Though I suspect that chalk is far more often noticed by non climbers than pegs and tat (whether they mind, I don't know).


Really? I'd always treat a peg with a suspicion which I wouldn't afford a bolt. Pegs can be rubbish! Anyway, even if a peg is bomber, replacing it with a bolt would change the character of the route - it's not to do with how secure they are, it's the aesthetic of the very nature of bolts.

In reply to Phil Ingle:

I was nearly won over until I remembered the feeling of total fear on my first hanging belay I would hate for people not to experience that

In reply to mishabruml:



climbing is elitist, only those with the technical and physical capabilities to climb something can climb it. the masses can stick to indoor walls and convenience sport, the mountains should be left to mountaineers.

I have no problem with in situ tat as it can (and should) be easily removed with no lasting damage.

In reply to mishabruml:


Looking at your profile and your picture of shiny gear it is easy to see you are fairly new to it. I suggest that you please read up on this history and motivations of British trad climbing before jumping in with your opinions.

In reply to planetmarshall:


That's true, but the need for self reliance in those places is not (lost).

In reply to mishabruml:

There are some well constructed points in this forum that could add to your climbing education and then maybe you might just "get it".

Adding a bolt and giving some impression of safety will lead to a greater number of inadequately prepared and overambitious people dying. For example, in an avalanche on the approach, navigating off without a map when the shiny bolts are buried & you have to climb out, I could go on but the message is that bolting gives a false impression o safety.

>if a couple of little bolts at a belay facilitate that at the cost of winding up the elite minority, then I'm all for it.
And these elitist know-it-alls will be the ones out picking up your body & consoling your relatives for their loss. They probably won't say be elitist enough to say "I told him so"

In reply to Mike Lates:

Without advocating bolting at all, I don't think your arguments about safety really stack up. There are many classic alpine routes, for example, that have been bolted without an increase in accidents.

In reply to Webster:

"I have no problem with in situ tat as it can (and should) be easily removed with no lasting damage."
Nail on the head there mate.

In reply to Mike Lates:


I think you are extrapolating a little, I mean bad things can happen to prepared and experienced people in the mountains too. I doubt that the addition of a couple of bolted abseils will mean that the flip-flop-wearing ill prepared masses will suddenly think they can pop up mountain routes. Besides, read MG's point below. Plenty of bolted multipitch all over the alps.



Oh come on now. Firstly, no need to be so personal. Secondly, if you are referring to MRTs I can think of a couple of places in the UK where bolts have been installed to facilitate rescue abs. Would you consider these bolts to give a false impression of safety too?

In reply to MG:


I agree. Bolting routes just makes them more popular (because they are safer)!

In reply to MG:

Climbers generally don't consider going out in shit weather in Alps so those 2 specific examples I gave wouldn't be factors. The arguement is that bolting abseil stations would give an impression that Scottish Winter (or Cuillin year-round) is cuddly & comfy like an indoor wall, friendly sesh at LPT or Chere Couloir in fine weather. 90% of my experiences this winter were anything but & I needed to use a lot to survive and a bolted anchor would have been an irrelevence.

In reply to mishabruml:


More like "all the gear & no idea brigade" but yes it will increase traffic not fit to be there.


And calling the majority of posters on this thread "an elite minority" isn't personal?

In reply to Mike Lates:


Fair point. I wasn't really referring specifically to winter, just mountain anchors in general. I'm all for trad, it's great, and wouldn't like to see bolted belays where a perfectly good other means of protection is available. I just think that defending in-situ pegs and tat over a bolt at places where a belay is a) compulsory and b) otherwise unprotectable is a bit contrived.

In reply to mishabruml:


What is a compulsory belay? When you screw up and run out of rope (in which case it depends on the length of your rope)? And how could a bolt possibly be described as less contrived than a peg (or nut) in a crack?

In reply to Robert Durran:


...though wires aren't usually placed with the intention of leaving them there.

With regard to in-situ abseil points, I would say that wires (if available) are preferable to pegs in that they're usually easier to remove and replace with the normal things you carry climbing (axe in winter, nutkey with auxiliary bashing-rock in summer, persistence). Pegs may exploit a weakness in the rock, but they also put an expiry date on that weakness if left to rot into a rusty wee stain inside it. Which is, unfortunately, default.

In reply to Andy Moles:


I agree. Wires are always preferable to pegs for all purposes (all other things being equal). All I am saying is that pegs are closer to wires than to pegs ethically and aesthetically and what I object to is people who argue that a peg can be replaced "like for like" with a bolt.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Sorry Robert, I said I said I'd never heard of any non climbers complain of tat littering, not that it hasn't happened. Likewise I've never heard non climbers complain of chalk vandalism though I'm sure some do.


Personally I treat both with pretty deep suspicion if it's a single piece (having had a bolt pull on me, and having bolted routes myself). But that aside: I don't understand your point regarding the "aesthetic of the very nature of bolts"? Surely they're just a natural progression from (pre placed) pegs? Much like the MP3 is a natural progression from the vinyl.

Obviously we can't generalise on every case however I have seen flakes and feature prized off and fissures opened through long term peg use. This is real damage to the rock. A bolt hole is in the grand scheme of things less destructive in my opinion.

But there we go. I don't think we'll agree, and I'm not about to start retro-bolting pegs! So I'll leave it there! Thanks for the discussion.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I'm not talking about how neat/messy they would look to a non climber. I'm talking about the more abstract climbing aesthetic of drilling a piece of rock with no natural features into usefulness rather than relying on what the rock naturally offers (ie the nub of the whole bolting argument wherever it occurs). If you are going to argue in favour of bolts, you have to believe that your case overrides this "murder of the impossible".


No, in the sense I'm talking about they are a quantum leap away from pegs - the leap which distinquishes bolts from all non drilled gear.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes, I realise your first sentence. The point I'm arguing is quite specific... I am talking of bolting particularly tatty abseils and pegs that have existed for some time and leave a mess on the rock. I am not arguing in favour of bolts generally, just in these specific cases. In such cases it's entirely 'possible' to use the pre-existing peg, but in my opinion removing it and replacing with a nearby bolt is kinder to both the rock and to the eyes of everyone who happens to look. It takes nothing away from the 'impossibility' of otherwise doing the line.

I personally would rather see a nice neat bolt than a scar with rust running down the rock, rusted remains of previous pegs and meters of tatty sling dangling in the wind. To repeat, I'm not talking about 'drilling a piece of rock with no natural features into usefulness', simply placing a bolt close to where the peg once was.


Whacking a peg in with a hammer and placing a bolt with a drill don't seem a million miles apart from my point of view. Both can be done on a lead, both require tools and both are infinitely less preferable to removable gear.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


That is a perfectly defensible point of view but one with which I (and others) happen to disagree because I feel that the general principle against bolts trumps it every time.


I agree. It is the principle of the aesthetic case against drilling gear which I am upholding.


But there is a difference and I would argue a much bigger one than between a peg and a nut (because I see the drilling of a hole rather than utilising an existing crack as the crucial watershed).

In reply to Robert Durran:


Totally see your point. But something does ultimately need to be done about tat on popular routes. This sort of thing drives me nuts: http://www.talisman-activities.co.uk/blog/uploaded_images/abseil_tat_010609... It's just horrible. I for one would rather see a bolt or two than all that crap.

On the other hand, a lack of bolts does keep the routes a little freer for those of us who are happy without them!

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I agree. It looks like it could be tidied up with a single length of tat. It just needs a small proportion of climbers (perhaps locals) to take responsibility for it. Awareness and education is the answer. Not bolts in my view. Do you know where it is? (Torridonian sandstone?)

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:



If it offends so much use equal passion to do something about it!

I gradually work my way around the worst cases on "my own patch" through the season and a similar level of dedication would easily solve it in more populated areas. Sadly adding more rather than replace fits the "climber in a hurry" mentality.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


yep, simply take a knife to the lot and remove/recycle the crabs/malion. the in situ nuts can be clipped just as easily by someone and equalized with their own kit.

I am more sympathetic to finding/using messes of tat in winter as once it becomes frozen in/partially burried it can be dificult to see what is what and what needs removing, plus suitable altenative runners may also be burrried. i dont see the need to build such tat piles on rock-only routes such as in the picture though?

In reply to the thread:

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting using bolts. I was saying that since you don't use bolts, but are seemingly happy to leave loads of tat behind then perhaps it would be an idea for any professionals regularly using the tat to tidy it up a bit.

I would have taken a knife to it, but its not my patch and one of the guide books I had specifically said not to remove the abseil slings.

In reply to Phil Ingle:


What's it got to do with being a "professional". Does that mean us mere "amateurs" shouldn't take some responsibility? We're all just climbers in it together.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Mainly that someone who is going to use the route numerous times over a single season, and lower their clients back down the 'ab stations' has a vested interest in making them good.

In reply to Phil Ingle:


Fair enough but with responsibilities (if that is what it is seen as) come privileges and I certainly don't want "professionals" feeling they have a privileged position in the mountains.

In reply to Phil Ingle:

I partly agree bolted anchors are less unsightly and safer. But you have then caused permanent damage. Tat in the form of slings or rope is unslightly and degrades making it potentially dangerous but can be removed without causing any damage. Fixed or abandonded gear I sometimes think thank god thats there, and leave it, other times I think thats totally unecessary and try to remove it if it comes out easily. Wires, I think they get left because they are cheap, only £6 each. Cams because they've been pushed into a crack thats too small and thats an expensive mistake. Pegs, I think they are slowly disappearing from peoples racks and you dont see quite so many left on routes as a consequence. I think there is an argument for limited use of bolts on busy classics where there is a lot of tat that appears in the same spot year after year. But its getting agreement as to where that should be thats the difficult bit. We had a huge debate on the marker posts for No. 4 Gully on Ben Nevis a few years ago so good luck to anyone who tries to settle this problem. One other point, if you allow the odd bolt you might also get the Cosmiques Arete problem raising its ugly head, with holes drilled on the 5m crux slab to create a toe hold for crampon points. Incidentally I noticed lower down on that route, after the second abseil there is a cul de sac, a small version of that one on SC Gully and now that has a couple of holes drilled as well. I don't really know what the answer is.

RN

In reply to Robert Durran:

Read a bit of this thread and was reminded of what happened about 6 weeks ago in the Norries. I was with a 17 year old who I was taking up the Runnell as his first winter climb. At the end of what was the second pitch I said to him 'That wire nut was in situ but I've managed to slacken it off, so when you follow me up try and remove it.' At the top I checked my gear and found I was a quickdraw short. 'Oh I couldnt get the wire out' he said. So he'd left the quickdraw as well???? A few days later I was at his house and he presented me with a brand new quick draw. 'There was no need' I said. To which his father said 'No, no that'll teach him, you go to the mountains and you should leave nothing but your footprints in the snow.' RN

In reply to rossn:

Retold this tale to my client today who promptly spent half an hour trying to get a no7 hex out. I assured him it was probably just a knack thing then spent half hour fighting with it inverted 8" inside the crack before admitting defeat myself; doh.

In reply to Mike Lates:

Ye stuff gets stuck sometimes no matter how careful you are. At the end of the day if you loose a chock or a wire or drop a carabiner occasionally its no big deal. I hate the thought of dropping an ice screw though.

RN