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Sounds silly but bear with me. My theory is if you have a job you don't like that much for whatever reason, you will be super keen to get out climbing as much as possible to get away from it all. That way you will end up doing loads of climbing stuff you really want to do, getting better and so on. Of course there will be plenty of keen climbers who like their jobs but for those of us who don't, I think it's a major motivational factor. If the job is well paid so you can afford to actually get out climbing and go on trips, so much the better! What do people think?
4
In reply to Misha:
I think the biggest flaw with your theory is professional climbers. They climb the hardest routes in the world and they don't exactly seem sick of the sport?
I know what you're getting at, but I think if you like something, it doesn't matter what you're doing. If you aren't doing that thing you will wish you were. I love my job and still dream of perfect hand cracks all day.
I think the biggest flaw with your theory is professional climbers. They climb the hardest routes in the world and they don't exactly seem sick of the sport?
I know what you're getting at, but I think if you like something, it doesn't matter what you're doing. If you aren't doing that thing you will wish you were. I love my job and still dream of perfect hand cracks all day.
In reply to Misha:
I think you may be right; if you would rather spend your life climbing; any job will suffer by comparison. I guess there must be loads of people doing jobs they only do to pay the bills. I couldn't comment on well-paid jobs: )
I think you may be right; if you would rather spend your life climbing; any job will suffer by comparison. I guess there must be loads of people doing jobs they only do to pay the bills. I couldn't comment on well-paid jobs: )
1
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In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
But they are not actually paid to climb though are they? They are paid to go to trade fairs and flog videos with lots of logos etc. That's probably all pretty boring; I bet they would rather be climbing.
> I think the biggest flaw with your theory is professional climbers. They climb the hardest routes in the world and they don't exactly seem sick of the sport?
But they are not actually paid to climb though are they? They are paid to go to trade fairs and flog videos with lots of logos etc. That's probably all pretty boring; I bet they would rather be climbing.
5
In reply to Misha:
Very personality dependent.
A job that "pays my way, but corrodes my soul" will kill every aspect of my motivation. It's just a negative factor in life and will make me want drugs and alcohol, which are escapes that don't require any energy or motivation... On the other hand if I'm doing something I believe in and enjoy, then I'll have positivity and optimism than will flow into my climbing.
Very personality dependent.
A job that "pays my way, but corrodes my soul" will kill every aspect of my motivation. It's just a negative factor in life and will make me want drugs and alcohol, which are escapes that don't require any energy or motivation... On the other hand if I'm doing something I believe in and enjoy, then I'll have positivity and optimism than will flow into my climbing.
10
In reply to Misha:
Your way of thinking is desperately flawed, imho, and will very likely lead to an unhappy life (because you may not for ever think that climbing is the most important thing in your life, and you'll have a crap career). Just warning you.
Your way of thinking is desperately flawed, imho, and will very likely lead to an unhappy life (because you may not for ever think that climbing is the most important thing in your life, and you'll have a crap career). Just warning you.
3
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:
Fair enough, I wasn't thinking of pro climbers. They're a category apart really in that their jobs revolve around climbing. If you love your job, good on you!
Fair enough, I wasn't thinking of pro climbers. They're a category apart really in that their jobs revolve around climbing. If you love your job, good on you!
3
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Gordon,
do you have any slideshows coming up in Sheffield anytime soon, last saw you at The Lescar with GG, your pictures were sooooo good.
Sorry Misha!!!
Gordon,
do you have any slideshows coming up in Sheffield anytime soon, last saw you at The Lescar with GG, your pictures were sooooo good.
Sorry Misha!!!
In reply to Woodseats flapjack eater:
No, sorry, I always try to avoid publicity 'between books'. It's just so time-consuming. I'm really focused on my next book project at the moment.
No, sorry, I always try to avoid publicity 'between books'. It's just so time-consuming. I'm really focused on my next book project at the moment.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
That's a good way of thinking about it. Drugs and alcohol sound good though What I would say though is not liking a job doesn't mean the negativity necessarily overflows into wider life. But it depends on the person.
That's a good way of thinking about it. Drugs and alcohol sound good though What I would say though is not liking a job doesn't mean the negativity necessarily overflows into wider life. But it depends on the person.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
... But could easily destroy you, or reduce you to a seriously handicapped wally. Surely you're joking/not saying this seriously? Or, which planet have you been on?
> Very personality dependent.
> A job that "pays my way, but corrodes my soul" will kill every aspect of my motivation. It's just a negative factor in life and will make me want drugs and alcohol, which are escapes that don't require any energy or motivation...
... But could easily destroy you, or reduce you to a seriously handicapped wally. Surely you're joking/not saying this seriously? Or, which planet have you been on?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Agree re climbing not necessarily being the most important thing forever. As for career, it's perfectly possible to have a decent career (for those who care about such things) without actually particularly liking what you do. You've got to be able to put up with it, that's all. Also, I'm not saying that in order to do lots of climbing and/or to get good at it you need to dislike your job (for that you need to be a climbing bum without a job!).
Agree re climbing not necessarily being the most important thing forever. As for career, it's perfectly possible to have a decent career (for those who care about such things) without actually particularly liking what you do. You've got to be able to put up with it, that's all. Also, I'm not saying that in order to do lots of climbing and/or to get good at it you need to dislike your job (for that you need to be a climbing bum without a job!).
In reply to Misha:
The problem I can see with your theory is that you could end up spending most of your week doing something you don't actually like, and start to not want to get out of bed and up for work in the mornings.
Not being happy with work can spill over into other areas of life, and one risks ending up being genuinely pretty fed up.
Try and find a job you actually think 'cool' about, or 'That's not so bad' as a close second, since you'll probably spend most of your life time working.
There's a saying along the lines of 'If you can find a job you'll love, you'll never have to get up for work again.'
There might be some truth in a job not being the most important thing, if you're the kind who can put up with doing something average which gives you a decent lifestyle outside of work, but you've definitely nothing to lose in trying to figure out what you'd actually like to do, your life would be richer for it.
The problem I can see with your theory is that you could end up spending most of your week doing something you don't actually like, and start to not want to get out of bed and up for work in the mornings.
Not being happy with work can spill over into other areas of life, and one risks ending up being genuinely pretty fed up.
Try and find a job you actually think 'cool' about, or 'That's not so bad' as a close second, since you'll probably spend most of your life time working.
There's a saying along the lines of 'If you can find a job you'll love, you'll never have to get up for work again.'
There might be some truth in a job not being the most important thing, if you're the kind who can put up with doing something average which gives you a decent lifestyle outside of work, but you've definitely nothing to lose in trying to figure out what you'd actually like to do, your life would be richer for it.
Post edited at 00:14
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
He's on planet Valid Opinion.
He's not saying he would take them, only that he'd want to. I dare say many people drink more when they're not happy with something in their life.
> ... But could easily destroy you, or reduce you to a seriously handicapped wally. Surely you're joking/not saying this seriously? Or, which planet have you been on?
He's on planet Valid Opinion.
He's not saying he would take them, only that he'd want to. I dare say many people drink more when they're not happy with something in their life.
Post edited at 00:15
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In reply to Misha:
My fear is that your job could be very precarious if your heart's not in it. Also ... your overall premise seems very strange to me. Going through everyday life 'not particularly liking what you do.' That's hours of wasted life.
> Agree re climbing not necessarily being the most important thing forever. As for career, it's perfectly possible to have a decent career (for those who care about such things) without actually particularly liking what you do. You've got to be able to put up with it, that's all.
My fear is that your job could be very precarious if your heart's not in it. Also ... your overall premise seems very strange to me. Going through everyday life 'not particularly liking what you do.' That's hours of wasted life.
In reply to Timmd:
Sorry, but there's that horrible planet called Hard Reality, which could smash into it.
> He's on planet Valid Opinion.
Sorry, but there's that horrible planet called Hard Reality, which could smash into it.
In reply to Timmd:
I never want to get up for work in the morning. I suspect I'm not the only one! I suppose my job is ok in that it can be interesting at times, I just dislike many aspects of it as they're boring and/or stressful. But insofar as it motivates me to get out at weekends and provides the funds to do that, I might as well stick with it for the time being. I think the point about motivation is not to be underestimated. Although I can see Jon's perspective as well and that's a better place to be. Anyway, being a realist, I can't really think of any job I could do which I would actually enjoy.
I never want to get up for work in the morning. I suspect I'm not the only one! I suppose my job is ok in that it can be interesting at times, I just dislike many aspects of it as they're boring and/or stressful. But insofar as it motivates me to get out at weekends and provides the funds to do that, I might as well stick with it for the time being. I think the point about motivation is not to be underestimated. Although I can see Jon's perspective as well and that's a better place to be. Anyway, being a realist, I can't really think of any job I could do which I would actually enjoy.
1
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I'm not advocating drugs and alcohol as a better or more rational response to being in a job you hate than going out climbing. I'm saying that for many personality types similar to mine, a shit job could well be a path to depression, , drugs, drink, doom and death - as dramatically as it sounds or less so. So rather than think "oh it's great that I've got this shit job that I hate, it increases my motivation for what I love" I would encourage people in that situation to think "GET ME THE F^CK OUT OF THIS SHIT F^CKING JOB IT IS KILLING ME".
I think it's admirable that Misha can turn the negative into a positive, but I'm saying that's down to his personality rather than anything universal.
> ... But could easily destroy you, or reduce you to a seriously handicapped wally. Surely you're joking/not saying this seriously? Or, which planet have you been on?
I'm not advocating drugs and alcohol as a better or more rational response to being in a job you hate than going out climbing. I'm saying that for many personality types similar to mine, a shit job could well be a path to depression, , drugs, drink, doom and death - as dramatically as it sounds or less so. So rather than think "oh it's great that I've got this shit job that I hate, it increases my motivation for what I love" I would encourage people in that situation to think "GET ME THE F^CK OUT OF THIS SHIT F^CKING JOB IT IS KILLING ME".
I think it's admirable that Misha can turn the negative into a positive, but I'm saying that's down to his personality rather than anything universal.
7
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Well, I agree with all that, but I'm still a bit baffled why any intelligent person would get into a <not using your capitals> shit f*cking job</capitals> in the first place.
Well, I agree with all that, but I'm still a bit baffled why any intelligent person would get into a <not using your capitals> shit f*cking job</capitals> in the first place.
In reply to Misha:
Fair enough. I'm currently aiming at getting into the environmental sector, once I pass my driving test I'll be quite well set up with my ranger related skills, and I plan to get qualified in taking children to play in the woods essentially, in a learning through playing style of teaching guiding, and I do community-engagement style volunteering where I can find it too.
I've grown up liking being outside all the time, and through it I've developed a love of nature and wanting to look after it, so if I can get up each morning thinking I'm doing something to help pass on something similar, even if I feel grotty or haven't slept, I'll be motivated on a deeper lever than 'do I feel like it today', so I'm doing all I can to further finding that kind of job.
Everyone has to follow their own path or plan though, and that's just my one, there's perhaps a flipside to feeling strongly about doing certain things for a living, which could be it being trickier to be at peace when doing something else, if luck isn't on one's side...
Fair enough. I'm currently aiming at getting into the environmental sector, once I pass my driving test I'll be quite well set up with my ranger related skills, and I plan to get qualified in taking children to play in the woods essentially, in a learning through playing style of teaching guiding, and I do community-engagement style volunteering where I can find it too.
I've grown up liking being outside all the time, and through it I've developed a love of nature and wanting to look after it, so if I can get up each morning thinking I'm doing something to help pass on something similar, even if I feel grotty or haven't slept, I'll be motivated on a deeper lever than 'do I feel like it today', so I'm doing all I can to further finding that kind of job.
Everyone has to follow their own path or plan though, and that's just my one, there's perhaps a flipside to feeling strongly about doing certain things for a living, which could be it being trickier to be at peace when doing something else, if luck isn't on one's side...
Post edited at 00:45
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
You may need to appreciate when you're talking from a privileged perspective.
I used to do a job that I hated and which made me depressed. 'Staring into oblivion' depressed. I got the chance (literally chance, as in luck) to retrain to do something that I believe in more - something sensible and practical. I'm currently struggling through the very shittest bit of the transition between careers and it is not at all fun, and there are some pretty big things that I do not like at all about my new job, but it has many more advantages to the previous one, a lot more scope (e.g. for self-employment) and flexibility and control over my life.
I'm very lucky to be able to make that change. Not everyone has skills, money, good fortune, talent, whatever might be required to get oneself in a place getting paid for doing something they enjoy. Many people can do something tolerable for OK money. Some people do something they hate for shit money, but they don't have the skills, money, freedom, circumstances etc to change that. Some people have no interests, have lost their friends and find their home life oppressive; they look forward to getting drunk on their own. Not everyone is having a great time here on earth, or here in UK society, and in many ways it just depends what you get dealt out at the start.
> My fear is that your job could be very precarious if your heart's not in it. Also ... your overall premise seems very strange to me. Going through everyday life 'not particularly liking what you do.' That's hours of wasted life.
You may need to appreciate when you're talking from a privileged perspective.
I used to do a job that I hated and which made me depressed. 'Staring into oblivion' depressed. I got the chance (literally chance, as in luck) to retrain to do something that I believe in more - something sensible and practical. I'm currently struggling through the very shittest bit of the transition between careers and it is not at all fun, and there are some pretty big things that I do not like at all about my new job, but it has many more advantages to the previous one, a lot more scope (e.g. for self-employment) and flexibility and control over my life.
I'm very lucky to be able to make that change. Not everyone has skills, money, good fortune, talent, whatever might be required to get oneself in a place getting paid for doing something they enjoy. Many people can do something tolerable for OK money. Some people do something they hate for shit money, but they don't have the skills, money, freedom, circumstances etc to change that. Some people have no interests, have lost their friends and find their home life oppressive; they look forward to getting drunk on their own. Not everyone is having a great time here on earth, or here in UK society, and in many ways it just depends what you get dealt out at the start.
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In reply to Misha:
My friend who lives and works in London knows quite a lot of people who work the City who have become trapped in a job they don't like any more, through needing to pay the bills.
> I think it's fairly common in the financial world!
My friend who lives and works in London knows quite a lot of people who work the City who have become trapped in a job they don't like any more, through needing to pay the bills.
In reply to Timmd:
Quite easy to solve that one, sell your flat, keep on with the job whilst living in Hyde park or similar, erecting tent at last light and pull pole in morning, take the wage off the man until filthy Rich and retire a millionaire in less than 3 years.
Quite easy to solve that one, sell your flat, keep on with the job whilst living in Hyde park or similar, erecting tent at last light and pull pole in morning, take the wage off the man until filthy Rich and retire a millionaire in less than 3 years.
In reply to Misha:
What is your job Misha?
It's alls so subjective. One persons dream job can be someone else's idea of hell. What is well paid? I'd say £30'000pa is very well paid, where as I have friends that would expect £80'000pa. They'll have superiors that are expecting £200'000pa.
Im lucky in that I'm am eternal optimist. I can get up at 5am, smile all day in a mundane workshop environment, do a couple of hours overtime, then go climbing in the evening still smiling.
I'd much prefer to be a happy simpleton than a depressed genius.
What is your job Misha?
It's alls so subjective. One persons dream job can be someone else's idea of hell. What is well paid? I'd say £30'000pa is very well paid, where as I have friends that would expect £80'000pa. They'll have superiors that are expecting £200'000pa.
Im lucky in that I'm am eternal optimist. I can get up at 5am, smile all day in a mundane workshop environment, do a couple of hours overtime, then go climbing in the evening still smiling.
I'd much prefer to be a happy simpleton than a depressed genius.
1
In reply to Misha:
I can understand your theory, but it sound more like two associated facts
1 folk who hate their job
2 folk who use negativity as a motivating force
I can understand your theory, but it sound more like two associated facts
1 folk who hate their job
2 folk who use negativity as a motivating force
In reply to Misha:
Your initial post makes sense to me. The urge to escape the dark satanic mills and run to the hills has a lot of history. There are a lot of "why would you do a job you hate?" posts on here that seem to ignore the fact that many people don't have career options.
Your initial post makes sense to me. The urge to escape the dark satanic mills and run to the hills has a lot of history. There are a lot of "why would you do a job you hate?" posts on here that seem to ignore the fact that many people don't have career options.
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In reply to alan moore:
Come off it people do have career options, you can always leave and tough it out. My preset career following the family trade of mining engineering was cut short before it even started. Due to a lack of communication between the countries management and union bosses which caused the neglect of the countries resources and a very poor treatment of the workforce. So I've had to change jobs a lot of times.
> Your initial post makes sense to me. The urge to escape the dark satanic mills and run to the hills has a lot of history. There are a lot of "why would you do a job you hate?" posts on here that seem to ignore the fact that many people don't have career options.
Come off it people do have career options, you can always leave and tough it out. My preset career following the family trade of mining engineering was cut short before it even started. Due to a lack of communication between the countries management and union bosses which caused the neglect of the countries resources and a very poor treatment of the workforce. So I've had to change jobs a lot of times.
3
In reply to alan moore:
I never said is was simple, just possible.
> you can always leave and tough it out.
> Life is rarely that simple.
I never said is was simple, just possible.
In reply to Misha:
I think if you get stressed at work and come out feeling mentally shattered often because you don't like your job, then your weekday training will be poor. This will outweigh any benefit in my opinion. Get a job you like but keep the hours sensible.
I think if you get stressed at work and come out feeling mentally shattered often because you don't like your job, then your weekday training will be poor. This will outweigh any benefit in my opinion. Get a job you like but keep the hours sensible.
In reply to Misha:
I would say we all have an 'appetite' for adventure and if climbing is the chosen sport then thts how it's best satisfied. However, the appetite could be dulled by indulgence in other sports/activities or sharpened by boredom in other domains of our lives.
I would say we all have an 'appetite' for adventure and if climbing is the chosen sport then thts how it's best satisfied. However, the appetite could be dulled by indulgence in other sports/activities or sharpened by boredom in other domains of our lives.
1
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
There's a difference between a shit job or a job you hate and a job you simply don't like all that much. I agree that most people wouldn't put up with something they really hate. Whereas something you don't like all that much, something where you think 'I'd rather be outdoors', is I suspect fairly common.
There's a difference between a shit job or a job you hate and a job you simply don't like all that much. I agree that most people wouldn't put up with something they really hate. Whereas something you don't like all that much, something where you think 'I'd rather be outdoors', is I suspect fairly common.
In reply to Timmd:
That's exactly it. A lot of people also get trapped in getting used to running up large bills! Having children also tends to tie people down to a steady but perhaps boring job as you need to provide for the family.
> My friend who lives and works in London knows quite a lot of people who work the City who have become trapped in a job they don't like any more, through needing to pay the bills.
That's exactly it. A lot of people also get trapped in getting used to running up large bills! Having children also tends to tie people down to a steady but perhaps boring job as you need to provide for the family.
In reply to Si dH:
Good point on the hours. That's one reason I'm not sure I could do my job for another 10 years. At the moment at 34 I can still climb at a level I'm happy with without having to do loads of weekday training, but that won't last.
Good point on the hours. That's one reason I'm not sure I could do my job for another 10 years. At the moment at 34 I can still climb at a level I'm happy with without having to do loads of weekday training, but that won't last.
In reply to Misha:
Every single climbing school teacher I know:
1. Hates their job
2. Never stop moaning about life as a school teacher.
3. Stick with it because they can have 4 or 5 foreign climbing trips a year
4. Stick with it because they can retire at 55.
Boggy
Every single climbing school teacher I know:
1. Hates their job
2. Never stop moaning about life as a school teacher.
3. Stick with it because they can have 4 or 5 foreign climbing trips a year
4. Stick with it because they can retire at 55.
Boggy
2
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Well, I was certainly privileged with my education/ university etc, but the latter (philosophy) had virtually no relevance to my career.
I left film school with no money, and really did live off oranges and muesli for about 18 months! The problem was that getting into the film industry was then very difficult - partly because of the closed shop ACTT union. It took me 4 years to get my union ticket, and I did that by starting at the very bottom, as it were, doing odd jobs of just 2 or 3 days with freelance editors who desperately needed an assistant at very short notice e.g. within an hour or two! I then got a week's job with an Egyptian guy doing commercials for Egyptian television. He seemed to regard me as a genius Then, after a few more jobs, I suddenly got offered a full time assistant's job with a freelance editor cutting 'specials' for BBC Panorama. Then Thames Television with Jonathan Dimbleby. Then, suddenly, after 7 years, a phone call from 'Hawk Films' at Elstree Studios.
Five years later, at a moment of very few films being made in the UK (but it's a more complicated story than that) I was out of work again, and had to start a new career ... in industrial, portrait and wedding photography (that I mostly hated) Then I got a big break to do my first landscape photography book. After four of those, I was looking for a new career again ...
I can only describe it as a roller coaster with some wonderful moments and some major disappointments.
Climbing always had to be entirely secondary (well, third or fourth in priority)
> You may need to appreciate when you're talking from a privileged perspective.
Well, I was certainly privileged with my education/ university etc, but the latter (philosophy) had virtually no relevance to my career.
> I used to do a job that I hated and which made me depressed. 'Staring into oblivion' depressed. I got the chance (literally chance, as in luck) to retrain to do something that I believe in more - something sensible and practical. I'm currently struggling through the very shittest bit of the transition between careers and it is not at all fun, and there are some pretty big things that I do not like at all about my new job, but it has many more advantages to the previous one, a lot more scope (e.g. for self-employment) and flexibility and control over my life.
> I'm very lucky to be able to make that change. Not everyone has skills, money, good fortune, talent, whatever might be required to get oneself in a place getting paid for doing something they enjoy. Many people can do something tolerable for OK money. Some people do something they hate for shit money, but they don't have the skills, money, freedom, circumstances etc to change that. Some people have no interests, have lost their friends and find their home life oppressive; they look forward to getting drunk on their own. Not everyone is having a great time here on earth, or here in UK society, and in many ways it just depends what you get dealt out at the start.
I left film school with no money, and really did live off oranges and muesli for about 18 months! The problem was that getting into the film industry was then very difficult - partly because of the closed shop ACTT union. It took me 4 years to get my union ticket, and I did that by starting at the very bottom, as it were, doing odd jobs of just 2 or 3 days with freelance editors who desperately needed an assistant at very short notice e.g. within an hour or two! I then got a week's job with an Egyptian guy doing commercials for Egyptian television. He seemed to regard me as a genius Then, after a few more jobs, I suddenly got offered a full time assistant's job with a freelance editor cutting 'specials' for BBC Panorama. Then Thames Television with Jonathan Dimbleby. Then, suddenly, after 7 years, a phone call from 'Hawk Films' at Elstree Studios.
Five years later, at a moment of very few films being made in the UK (but it's a more complicated story than that) I was out of work again, and had to start a new career ... in industrial, portrait and wedding photography (that I mostly hated) Then I got a big break to do my first landscape photography book. After four of those, I was looking for a new career again ...
I can only describe it as a roller coaster with some wonderful moments and some major disappointments.
Climbing always had to be entirely secondary (well, third or fourth in priority)
In reply to Misha:
Misha
This is so sad. You spend Monday to Friday dreaming of climbing on Saturday or Sunday.
If you can't work out whats wrong with that then I'd suggest you find a job you can do that you enjoy doing. Or another hobby!
You are going to spend much of your life in regret. When you eventually get to my age, you'll look back, shake your head and wished you'd spent your life doing more things you enjoy.
Misha
This is so sad. You spend Monday to Friday dreaming of climbing on Saturday or Sunday.
If you can't work out whats wrong with that then I'd suggest you find a job you can do that you enjoy doing. Or another hobby!
You are going to spend much of your life in regret. When you eventually get to my age, you'll look back, shake your head and wished you'd spent your life doing more things you enjoy.
1
In reply to Dave Perry:
My old driving instructor only used to look forward to weekends and xmas/holidays. He wasn't so cheery deep down.
My old driving instructor only used to look forward to weekends and xmas/holidays. He wasn't so cheery deep down.
In reply to Misha:
Better to have a job you enjoy and each day when you get up look forward to the day ahead! If you are still motivated for climbing (and why wouldn't you be?) then do so at the weekends like everyone else, but at least if the weather's crap you don't get too bothered.
Better to have a job you enjoy and each day when you get up look forward to the day ahead! If you are still motivated for climbing (and why wouldn't you be?) then do so at the weekends like everyone else, but at least if the weather's crap you don't get too bothered.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I was quite ambiguous with what I meant by 'privileged' - I meant in spending a career largely pursuing a passion. Also having ownership of your work, rather than grinding away in a vast 'system' (be that public or private) which is how the vast majority of people spend their working lives.
Most people simply do not have a passion that they can get paid for. People successful in the arts and academia are in a very small minority. Attempting to get somewhere close to the balance in a job you believe in, that's enjoyable, that pays the bills, is I think really really hard. The jobs which have an ultimately satisfying purpose - education, medical, social etc - are in generally horrible stressful systems in which the authority with the funding is attempting to squeeze out every last drop of measurable result from every last employee. Not much different in large businesses accept that the social purpose is absent In general, satisfying oneself that the people we work with are OK, and that we're making some kind of useful contribution, and that we're rewarded appropriately is about as good as it gets.
Well as I'm saying, if your work isn't terribly rewarding, then if you're lucky climbing or an outside passion (sport, music, making your house really nice, or just holidays and leisure) often becomes a higher priority. If as things turn out you don't have that either, you're in trouble. Even more so if your relationships, social and family life have gone to shit as well!
> Well, I was certainly privileged with my education/ university etc, but the latter (philosophy) had virtually no relevance to my career.
> I left film school with no money, and really did live off oranges and muesli for about 18 months...
> I can only describe it as a roller coaster with some wonderful moments and some major disappointments.
I was quite ambiguous with what I meant by 'privileged' - I meant in spending a career largely pursuing a passion. Also having ownership of your work, rather than grinding away in a vast 'system' (be that public or private) which is how the vast majority of people spend their working lives.
Most people simply do not have a passion that they can get paid for. People successful in the arts and academia are in a very small minority. Attempting to get somewhere close to the balance in a job you believe in, that's enjoyable, that pays the bills, is I think really really hard. The jobs which have an ultimately satisfying purpose - education, medical, social etc - are in generally horrible stressful systems in which the authority with the funding is attempting to squeeze out every last drop of measurable result from every last employee. Not much different in large businesses accept that the social purpose is absent In general, satisfying oneself that the people we work with are OK, and that we're making some kind of useful contribution, and that we're rewarded appropriately is about as good as it gets.
> Climbing always had to be entirely secondary (well, third or fourth in priority)
Well as I'm saying, if your work isn't terribly rewarding, then if you're lucky climbing or an outside passion (sport, music, making your house really nice, or just holidays and leisure) often becomes a higher priority. If as things turn out you don't have that either, you're in trouble. Even more so if your relationships, social and family life have gone to shit as well!
1
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I know all about that planet, I'll probably be the Messenger of Doom when it comes to taking drugs for my nieces and nephew. My nephew's mum is possibly more chilled it seems. (:~))
> Sorry, but there's that horrible planet called Hard Reality, which could smash into it.
I know all about that planet, I'll probably be the Messenger of Doom when it comes to taking drugs for my nieces and nephew. My nephew's mum is possibly more chilled it seems. (:~))
3
In reply to Misha:
Climbing is escapist but if we can bring some of the joy we find in it back into the rest of our lives we might grow to be better people.
It can get boring, especially if you feel you have to do it.
The concept of Right Livelihood or earning a living in a way that supports our personal values is something that can help us make more sense of our crazy world.
We climb for ourselves - it feels nice to do well at it but nobody else really cares that much.
Climbing is escapist but if we can bring some of the joy we find in it back into the rest of our lives we might grow to be better people.
It can get boring, especially if you feel you have to do it.
The concept of Right Livelihood or earning a living in a way that supports our personal values is something that can help us make more sense of our crazy world.
We climb for ourselves - it feels nice to do well at it but nobody else really cares that much.
In reply to Dave Perry:
This is far too black and white. There are many essential activities in life which cannot give us what climbing does. Work is so called because it is *not* recreation, requiring a degree of application and effort often irksome. We will always have the need of escape from the things we *have* to do.
Whether you should stay in a job you don't like is another question all together ...
> Misha
> This is so sad. You spend Monday to Friday dreaming of climbing on Saturday or Sunday.
> If you can't work out whats wrong with that then I'd suggest you find a job you can do that you enjoy doing. Or another hobby!
> You are going to spend much of your life in regret. When you eventually get to my age, you'll look back, shake your head and wished you'd spent your life doing more things you enjoy.
This is far too black and white. There are many essential activities in life which cannot give us what climbing does. Work is so called because it is *not* recreation, requiring a degree of application and effort often irksome. We will always have the need of escape from the things we *have* to do.
Whether you should stay in a job you don't like is another question all together ...
2
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Most of what you say I agree with. Thanks for an interesting post. Just a few points:
Well, in that case, I really carved out my own privileges - but it did mean making a lot of sacrifices and putting myself into a life that offered very little security or certainty.
I have the old-fashioned idea, a rather deep unconscious belief, that one should be contributing something to society. Which is why I'm not at all interested in holidays and leisure, and even making my house really nice (but I like it very much: it's very cosy and practical). I think that climbing is something that enables one to learn more about oneself, and about self-reliance - apart from being superb physical exercise. Also it takes us near to boundaries of the possible, and puts us in very extreme situations. Part of living a full life, I think. I also believe in the 'seven ages of man', and that everyone, ideally, should at least go through some kind of personal physically and mentally testing experience/s at some stage in their life. I think it's very difficult for an 'artist' to say anything useful or interesting about life if he/she has not experienced such things.
Ramble over.
Most of what you say I agree with. Thanks for an interesting post. Just a few points:
> I was quite ambiguous with what I meant by 'privileged' - I meant in spending a career largely pursuing a passion. Also having ownership of your work, rather than grinding away in a vast 'system' (be that public or private) which is how the vast majority of people spend their working lives.
Well, in that case, I really carved out my own privileges - but it did mean making a lot of sacrifices and putting myself into a life that offered very little security or certainty.
> Well as I'm saying, if your work isn't terribly rewarding, then if you're lucky climbing or an outside passion (sport, music, making your house really nice, or just holidays and leisure) often becomes a higher priority. If as things turn out you don't have that either, you're in trouble. Even more so if your relationships, social and family life have gone to shit as well!
I have the old-fashioned idea, a rather deep unconscious belief, that one should be contributing something to society. Which is why I'm not at all interested in holidays and leisure, and even making my house really nice (but I like it very much: it's very cosy and practical). I think that climbing is something that enables one to learn more about oneself, and about self-reliance - apart from being superb physical exercise. Also it takes us near to boundaries of the possible, and puts us in very extreme situations. Part of living a full life, I think. I also believe in the 'seven ages of man', and that everyone, ideally, should at least go through some kind of personal physically and mentally testing experience/s at some stage in their life. I think it's very difficult for an 'artist' to say anything useful or interesting about life if he/she has not experienced such things.
Ramble over.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Though climbing perhaps isn't needed, to explore the 'boundaries of the self', as it were, to do with commitment or the will to survive.
Life challenges can also test one, in seeing how deep one has to dig to find what's needed to continue.
Though climbing perhaps isn't needed, to explore the 'boundaries of the self', as it were, to do with commitment or the will to survive.
Life challenges can also test one, in seeing how deep one has to dig to find what's needed to continue.
Post edited at 23:27
In reply to Timmd:
Yes, agreed. I think the whole of life should be about exploring the boundaries of oneself. Climbing only one way of doing that, and never more than a part of it anyway.
> Though climbing perhaps isn't needed, to explore the 'boundaries of the self', as it were, to do with commitment or the will to survive.
> Life challenges can also test one, in seeing how deep one has to dig to find what's needed to continue.
Yes, agreed. I think the whole of life should be about exploring the boundaries of oneself. Climbing only one way of doing that, and never more than a part of it anyway.
In reply to John Simpson:
The biography I'm writing at the moment is a darker version of the monomyth. Of someone who achieves 'the ultimate boon' but couldn't make a successful return journey.
The biography I'm writing at the moment is a darker version of the monomyth. Of someone who achieves 'the ultimate boon' but couldn't make a successful return journey.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I guess a similar story is told in the 6th film in the Star Wars franchise when Anakin turns to the darkside. I hope all goes as well as hoped for you with the biography.
I guess a similar story is told in the 6th film in the Star Wars franchise when Anakin turns to the darkside. I hope all goes as well as hoped for you with the biography.
Post edited at 23:48
In reply to LeeWood:
I'm not sure about that Lee.
The last time I had a job I didn't like was in the 1970's. I hated it so much I determined I'd never, ever do anything I didn't enjoy. Sure it takes effort to choose this path.
Work can, and is, enjoyable for many people. Every monday I look forward to work. Work is even more enjoyable now because for the last 17 years I've been self employed. I choose, when, where and how much work I do - I am in control of my life, not an employer.
What I mean is that climbing, mountaineering etc., should not have to be escapism from what is the majority of your life. If it is then thats sad.
I'm not sure about that Lee.
The last time I had a job I didn't like was in the 1970's. I hated it so much I determined I'd never, ever do anything I didn't enjoy. Sure it takes effort to choose this path.
Work can, and is, enjoyable for many people. Every monday I look forward to work. Work is even more enjoyable now because for the last 17 years I've been self employed. I choose, when, where and how much work I do - I am in control of my life, not an employer.
What I mean is that climbing, mountaineering etc., should not have to be escapism from what is the majority of your life. If it is then thats sad.
2
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
doesn't 'holidays' mean climbing trips and 'leisure' just means doing what you want?
> Which is why I'm not at all interested in holidays and leisure,
>
>
doesn't 'holidays' mean climbing trips and 'leisure' just means doing what you want?
In reply to Michael Gordon:
No, I meant taking time off from work, in whatever way (climbing is one). 'Leisure' surely implies not doing anything remotely taxing - it would be strange to describe climbing as leisure I think. By not being keen on holidays I meant that, particularly when I was in the film industry, I would never take time off - there were plenty of times between jobs when you'd go away for a few days, but never on a holiday as such. I was very lucky, I suppose, in that I had a job that was so exciting. Between the age of 22 and about 35 I had one short holiday in Greece.
> doesn't 'holidays' mean climbing trips and 'leisure' just means doing what you want?
No, I meant taking time off from work, in whatever way (climbing is one). 'Leisure' surely implies not doing anything remotely taxing - it would be strange to describe climbing as leisure I think. By not being keen on holidays I meant that, particularly when I was in the film industry, I would never take time off - there were plenty of times between jobs when you'd go away for a few days, but never on a holiday as such. I was very lucky, I suppose, in that I had a job that was so exciting. Between the age of 22 and about 35 I had one short holiday in Greece.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Maybe depends on the type of climbing? Something easy and enjoyable might be leisure, while I guess hard and scary might not.
> 'Leisure' surely implies not doing anything remotely taxing - it would be strange to describe climbing as leisure I think.
Maybe depends on the type of climbing? Something easy and enjoyable might be leisure, while I guess hard and scary might not.
In reply to Bogwalloper:
Spot on Sir!
I stuck 2 fingers up to Teaching at 56. Now I can spend all winter working for the Austrian Ski School, with with weekends off to either play in the Tyrol or fly home to visit my wife and dog, and spend all summer racing my motorbike and climbing near my home.
It's now a mystery how I ever had time to go to work and I now enjoy getting up in the mornings
Spot on Sir!
I stuck 2 fingers up to Teaching at 56. Now I can spend all winter working for the Austrian Ski School, with with weekends off to either play in the Tyrol or fly home to visit my wife and dog, and spend all summer racing my motorbike and climbing near my home.
It's now a mystery how I ever had time to go to work and I now enjoy getting up in the mornings
2
In reply to LakesWinter:
I think I agree - anything you want to do is leisure, anything you have to do isn't.
I think I agree - anything you want to do is leisure, anything you have to do isn't.
In reply to Dave Perry:
If I could think of something I could do that I would really enjoy, I'd consider doing it. But I can't (apart from BMG which is something I'm trying to work towards though I have no illusions about it). So might as well so what I do, which has its interesting bits but lots of dull stuff which is what I dislike about it, get paid well for it and be super keen to get out at weekends and on holidays (and be able to afford it) and perhaps take some time out now and then (eg having an extra month off unpaid this year). So it's not all bad!
If I could think of something I could do that I would really enjoy, I'd consider doing it. But I can't (apart from BMG which is something I'm trying to work towards though I have no illusions about it). So might as well so what I do, which has its interesting bits but lots of dull stuff which is what I dislike about it, get paid well for it and be super keen to get out at weekends and on holidays (and be able to afford it) and perhaps take some time out now and then (eg having an extra month off unpaid this year). So it's not all bad!
Post edited at 20:21
In reply to Misha:
Mick Fowler is probably an exemplar of someone who has channeled pent up climbing energies (or as he would characteristically describe it: "satisfying the urge") into bursts of exceptionally creative climbing in his spare time.
I don't know if Mick dislikes his job (you'd have to ask him - I suspect he actually enjoys it!); but the point is that he spent a year as a climbing bum in Sheffield in the mid-1970s and reckoned that he did less climbing than when he was in work, due to gradually declining motivation. In addition (this was the 70s of course, so possibly may not be true now) he found that people were less willing to travel to go climbing, preferring to work on local projects and he struggled to find sufficient folk to go to remoter places to do more exploratory adventurous climbing.
By contrast, when he moved back to work in London, he found that there was a always a large supply of desperate climbers itching to get away and do something at the weekend so there was never any problem finding a partner in crime for whatever bonkers weekend adventure you might have in mind in any part of the country (hence, for example, the origin of those famous long-distance NW Highland ice climbing raids of the North London Mountaineering Club in the 80s).
As he put it: "A healthy enthusiasm replaced an obsessive but increasingly ineffectual approach."
This led Mick to declare, with typically unconformity, that London was the best place in the UK to be a keen climber!
(So by extension, your theory might be extended from having a non-climbing job and also living in a place with little local climbing).
Not that Mick's uncharacteristic year as a full-time climber resulted in nothing worthwhile (he did the first recognised E6 in the Peak of course), but I suspect he would certainly support Misha's view that working full time in a non-climbing job - not necessarily one that you hate - may not be a bad thing.
Col
Mick Fowler is probably an exemplar of someone who has channeled pent up climbing energies (or as he would characteristically describe it: "satisfying the urge") into bursts of exceptionally creative climbing in his spare time.
I don't know if Mick dislikes his job (you'd have to ask him - I suspect he actually enjoys it!); but the point is that he spent a year as a climbing bum in Sheffield in the mid-1970s and reckoned that he did less climbing than when he was in work, due to gradually declining motivation. In addition (this was the 70s of course, so possibly may not be true now) he found that people were less willing to travel to go climbing, preferring to work on local projects and he struggled to find sufficient folk to go to remoter places to do more exploratory adventurous climbing.
By contrast, when he moved back to work in London, he found that there was a always a large supply of desperate climbers itching to get away and do something at the weekend so there was never any problem finding a partner in crime for whatever bonkers weekend adventure you might have in mind in any part of the country (hence, for example, the origin of those famous long-distance NW Highland ice climbing raids of the North London Mountaineering Club in the 80s).
As he put it: "A healthy enthusiasm replaced an obsessive but increasingly ineffectual approach."
This led Mick to declare, with typically unconformity, that London was the best place in the UK to be a keen climber!
(So by extension, your theory might be extended from having a non-climbing job and also living in a place with little local climbing).
Not that Mick's uncharacteristic year as a full-time climber resulted in nothing worthwhile (he did the first recognised E6 in the Peak of course), but I suspect he would certainly support Misha's view that working full time in a non-climbing job - not necessarily one that you hate - may not be a bad thing.
Col
1
In reply to Misha:
Or you can get a job you like that gives you loads of holidays and pays well. It is possible.
R
Or you can get a job you like that gives you loads of holidays and pays well. It is possible.
R
In reply to Colin Wells:
Yeah that's a great example. No idea if he likes what he does at work but he's been at it for ages, so like me he must at least put up with it. (He also works in tax but in a different area to me). Though I think Birmingham is the centre of the British climbing universe
Yeah that's a great example. No idea if he likes what he does at work but he's been at it for ages, so like me he must at least put up with it. (He also works in tax but in a different area to me). Though I think Birmingham is the centre of the British climbing universe
In reply to Roberttaylor:
I'd like to hear about it! Mine pays well and has average holidays, so 'cash rich, time poor'. Better than 'cash poor, time poor', which is where a lot of people are, so it's all relative...
I'd like to hear about it! Mine pays well and has average holidays, so 'cash rich, time poor'. Better than 'cash poor, time poor', which is where a lot of people are, so it's all relative...
In reply to Roberttaylor:
Do they exist?
> Or you can get a job you like that gives you loads of holidays and pays well.
>Do they exist?
In reply to Misha:
My advice for what it's worth. Always do the things you love, whether that be work or play and keep away from debt. Works very well for me.
My advice for what it's worth. Always do the things you love, whether that be work or play and keep away from debt. Works very well for me.
2
In reply to Misha:
Hi Misha,
the sound of this blokes voice may or may not annoy you, it does sound a bit hokey, but listen to it, it s only nine minutes or so youtube.com/watch?v=cRMogDrHnMQ& .
Your a really likeable person, with a good qualification which I guess with would transfer to many industrys and not many ties, if your stuck in a job you don`t like, there is not much hope for the rest, is there?
Hi Misha,
the sound of this blokes voice may or may not annoy you, it does sound a bit hokey, but listen to it, it s only nine minutes or so youtube.com/watch?v=cRMogDrHnMQ& .
Your a really likeable person, with a good qualification which I guess with would transfer to many industrys and not many ties, if your stuck in a job you don`t like, there is not much hope for the rest, is there?
1
Hi Misha
Your original question has been a bit lost in everyone having a bit of a go at you for sticking with a job that you seem not to like that much....
Anyway, I don't think Bill Peascod of Eagle Front fame (and many others), who emerged from the coal mines to explore the Lakeland Crags, would necessarily disagree with you. I would have thought the same could be said for many of the post war working class climbers in Britain, looking for something better in their time off by finding adventure in the crags and mountains.
All the same, it doesn't seem a good reason to stick with a job you don't particularly like. Maybe life might be better outside the Big 4 rat race?
Post edited at 10:50
1
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Obviously the answer will vary from person to person. For me the time on/off work pattern provided by working off shore is ideal and I know of other climbers who find the same but I realise that for many people (those with kids, need to be near parents etc.) this would be their idea of hell. Plus, due to the (perceived?) inconvenience/unsociable nature of the work pattern they pay is better than for an equivalent job done 9-5.
But if someone is young, single and willing to travel there is a decent living to be made on ships, oil rigs and in dusty, slightly dangerous parts of the world. Outside the traditional uni then 9-5 pattern.
The UK has a bit of a culture of not talking about salaries, work conditions etc. There is a good discussion of this phenomenon (albeit in America) in a book called 'Nickel and Dimed' about the working class in America. Basically the authors contention is that people are limited in their ability to better their working conditions and pay because they simply don't know how much other jobs pay/what the conditions are like there. It doesn't help when salaries are advertised as 'competitive'.
R
Obviously the answer will vary from person to person. For me the time on/off work pattern provided by working off shore is ideal and I know of other climbers who find the same but I realise that for many people (those with kids, need to be near parents etc.) this would be their idea of hell. Plus, due to the (perceived?) inconvenience/unsociable nature of the work pattern they pay is better than for an equivalent job done 9-5.
But if someone is young, single and willing to travel there is a decent living to be made on ships, oil rigs and in dusty, slightly dangerous parts of the world. Outside the traditional uni then 9-5 pattern.
The UK has a bit of a culture of not talking about salaries, work conditions etc. There is a good discussion of this phenomenon (albeit in America) in a book called 'Nickel and Dimed' about the working class in America. Basically the authors contention is that people are limited in their ability to better their working conditions and pay because they simply don't know how much other jobs pay/what the conditions are like there. It doesn't help when salaries are advertised as 'competitive'.
R
In reply to Roberttaylor:
...assuming of course you both enjoy the work and are able to find work (though I guess that goes for any type of employment)
> there is a decent living to be made on ships, oil rigs and in dusty, slightly dangerous parts of the world.
>...assuming of course you both enjoy the work and are able to find work (though I guess that goes for any type of employment)
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Yes. I'd hope there is some sort of equivalent for everyone though, bar the terminally workshy (who may need to investigate lottery tickets etc).
R
Yes. I'd hope there is some sort of equivalent for everyone though, bar the terminally workshy (who may need to investigate lottery tickets etc).
R
In reply to Misha:
Overall, forget climbing as a priority. You can always climb somewhere.
Much more important is a job you enjoy, an income that will buy you a house and a pension, and the means to support the inevitable responsibilities.
When these building blocks are in place you will enjoy your climbing better.
The worst option is to be a climbing bum, obsessively overdosing on climbing, too many end up aged 35-40 with a pregnant girlfriend, no house, no career, no good CV, so who cares if you can lead E5 - at that stage your life is a mess.
Better sort the job and CV first.
> If the job is well paid so you can afford to actually get out climbing and go on trips, so much the better! What do people think?
Overall, forget climbing as a priority. You can always climb somewhere.
Much more important is a job you enjoy, an income that will buy you a house and a pension, and the means to support the inevitable responsibilities.
When these building blocks are in place you will enjoy your climbing better.
The worst option is to be a climbing bum, obsessively overdosing on climbing, too many end up aged 35-40 with a pregnant girlfriend, no house, no career, no good CV, so who cares if you can lead E5 - at that stage your life is a mess.
Better sort the job and CV first.
1
In reply to Misha:
I think I'm in a similar situation to you Misha.
I have recently graduated from uni with a masters in philosophy. I really enjoyed my degrees and the subject, and would have loved to continue doing it. As you can guess, academic philosophy isn't much of a career route, and there aren't (m)any jobs that directly use philosophy in the way that I enjoy doing it.
I've started a 'graduate' job, 9-5, in an office. The job isn't the most interesting job in the world, but I like the people I work with, the relaxed atmosphere, and the work itself is fairly interesting.
Starting this job has also enabled me to move Sheffield, afford to buy and run a car, and pay for recent climbing trips. It enables me to do what I want to do, and I think that's a good thing.
Like you, I'd certainly rather be outside fondling rocks. I find that perhaps 60% of my time at work I just spend wasting time, not working (like right now, writing on UKC). This time could certainly be put to better use e.g crushing rocks. Certainly in this country, and perhaps in Western society, I think that there is 'a culture of work' - working is seen as a good thing, something that people should do (normative!), without concern for the particularities. Perhaps this has carried over from when people really needed to work, and there wasn't enough work going. Whatever the reason though, I think there is an expectation that people should spend the majority of their time working (which boils down to 9-5 in the UK).
I think that part of the issue is life choice. For me, personally, I would really like to do something to do with the environment, perhaps as part of an NGO. I am passionate about the way we relate to the environment and the issues involved, both from a philosophical and personal perspective. However, it seemed to me that there is a choice to be made here (perhaps this is a false dichotomy!): either take an OK job and live somewhere you can climb a good amount (the option I am currently taking) OR move to London/another country where the interesting environment-related jobs are and work a lot but perhaps live miles from any climbing!
One thing that strikes me about your, and my dilemma is summed up in the phrase 'first world problems'; we are complaining about working 9-5 and spending the rest of our time doing what we want whereas the majority of people work a lot harder for a lot longer in crap conditions for the whole of their lives! However, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to improve our own situations.
The points in this post are rather muddled, rather like my current thinking about my current situation. It seems to be going well for me with my current option, though, and now that it's lighter in the evenings I can get out for some climbing after work!!
I think I'm in a similar situation to you Misha.
I have recently graduated from uni with a masters in philosophy. I really enjoyed my degrees and the subject, and would have loved to continue doing it. As you can guess, academic philosophy isn't much of a career route, and there aren't (m)any jobs that directly use philosophy in the way that I enjoy doing it.
I've started a 'graduate' job, 9-5, in an office. The job isn't the most interesting job in the world, but I like the people I work with, the relaxed atmosphere, and the work itself is fairly interesting.
Starting this job has also enabled me to move Sheffield, afford to buy and run a car, and pay for recent climbing trips. It enables me to do what I want to do, and I think that's a good thing.
Like you, I'd certainly rather be outside fondling rocks. I find that perhaps 60% of my time at work I just spend wasting time, not working (like right now, writing on UKC). This time could certainly be put to better use e.g crushing rocks. Certainly in this country, and perhaps in Western society, I think that there is 'a culture of work' - working is seen as a good thing, something that people should do (normative!), without concern for the particularities. Perhaps this has carried over from when people really needed to work, and there wasn't enough work going. Whatever the reason though, I think there is an expectation that people should spend the majority of their time working (which boils down to 9-5 in the UK).
I think that part of the issue is life choice. For me, personally, I would really like to do something to do with the environment, perhaps as part of an NGO. I am passionate about the way we relate to the environment and the issues involved, both from a philosophical and personal perspective. However, it seemed to me that there is a choice to be made here (perhaps this is a false dichotomy!): either take an OK job and live somewhere you can climb a good amount (the option I am currently taking) OR move to London/another country where the interesting environment-related jobs are and work a lot but perhaps live miles from any climbing!
One thing that strikes me about your, and my dilemma is summed up in the phrase 'first world problems'; we are complaining about working 9-5 and spending the rest of our time doing what we want whereas the majority of people work a lot harder for a lot longer in crap conditions for the whole of their lives! However, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to improve our own situations.
The points in this post are rather muddled, rather like my current thinking about my current situation. It seems to be going well for me with my current option, though, and now that it's lighter in the evenings I can get out for some climbing after work!!
Post edited at 10:51
3
In reply to theomoore:
As a philosopher, do you believe work is part of the human condition?
Also, by working, do we enjoy our time off better?
Just a thought.
As a philosopher, do you believe work is part of the human condition?
Also, by working, do we enjoy our time off better?
Just a thought.
In reply to Removed User:
I thought we must have met for a second but I can't really lead E5.
> The worst option is to be a climbing bum, obsessively overdosing on climbing, too many end up aged 35-40 with a pregnant girlfriend, no house, no career, no good CV, so who cares if you can lead E5 - at that stage your life is a mess.
I thought we must have met for a second but I can't really lead E5.
3
In reply to Removed User:
I think that it's a necessity that we work in some form - we have needs we must fulfill, and interests we want to fulfill - at the most basic level work can be going out gathering/hunting to feed ourselves.
The current situation of 9-5 can be seen as an extrapolation of this - we work for money so that we can spend it at the supermarket to fulfill our needs and interests.
However, the current (and historic) political/economic situation is such that the benefit of a lot of our work is received by those in situations of power who do not do/contribute to the work themselves!
I think that it's a necessity that we work in some form - we have needs we must fulfill, and interests we want to fulfill - at the most basic level work can be going out gathering/hunting to feed ourselves.
The current situation of 9-5 can be seen as an extrapolation of this - we work for money so that we can spend it at the supermarket to fulfill our needs and interests.
However, the current (and historic) political/economic situation is such that the benefit of a lot of our work is received by those in situations of power who do not do/contribute to the work themselves!
In reply to Misha:
Therw are plenty of jobs in the outdoor industry (climbing wall builders, BMC, outdoor education etc) that could give you drive and motivation to get up every day with the added bonus of working with like-minded people. You'd never be short of climbing partners and psyche!
OK. The money will never be brilliant for such jobs, but it will be enough to buy a house and raise a family.
I didn't take such an option and occasionally have regrets, but am ultimately happy with the direction I took. I just wish I had more truly free time now...
> Anyway, being a realist, I can't really think of any job I could do which I would actually enjoy.
Therw are plenty of jobs in the outdoor industry (climbing wall builders, BMC, outdoor education etc) that could give you drive and motivation to get up every day with the added bonus of working with like-minded people. You'd never be short of climbing partners and psyche!
OK. The money will never be brilliant for such jobs, but it will be enough to buy a house and raise a family.
I didn't take such an option and occasionally have regrets, but am ultimately happy with the direction I took. I just wish I had more truly free time now...
In reply to Misha:
I would suggest that rather than your work controlling you, you try and make sure you are in control of your work - it will always be more motivating. Either by;
a) Enjoying your work
or
b) Maximize earnings so you can save loads and leave as soon as possible (and do something more enjoyable, but less pay dependent)
Or even better a) + b).
The alternative is to drift along and find that 10-20 years later you are in the same position but with more commitments and less energy to do the things you enjoy in life.
I would suggest that rather than your work controlling you, you try and make sure you are in control of your work - it will always be more motivating. Either by;
a) Enjoying your work
or
b) Maximize earnings so you can save loads and leave as soon as possible (and do something more enjoyable, but less pay dependent)
Or even better a) + b).
The alternative is to drift along and find that 10-20 years later you are in the same position but with more commitments and less energy to do the things you enjoy in life.
1
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