UKC

I heard recently that climbing is classed by some as an inherently masochistic activity.

A couple of quotes by famous climbers made me think that perhaps that is true:

"If you can't keep your shit together when you're in pain you might as well go home." - US climber Mike Call talking about climbing on rock in the 90s Performance Rock Climbing video[1].

"If you do this brutal training regime its more about overcoming the pain of the second digit of your fingers. You have to be a kind of masochist and at a certain point I succeed in turning the pain into a joy." - Adam Ondra in a recent vid about campusing[2].

To what degree is masochism a part of climbing?


[1] youtube.com/watch?v=X-G2NBkpTbY&
[2] http://bit.ly/1Hf7uTJ (2m 05s)

In reply to stp:

There's probably a wider philosophical argument to be made here than simply picking out climbing and examining that. Masochism is a part of climbing as much as it is part of any activity that is based upon taking the human body to extremes of possibility (now that sounds like a cliche if I ever saw one) - the kind of graft your talking about is surely a prerequisite of any physical achievement.. I'd say there is joy to be gained from pain as long as you're taking it in a good direction.

In reply to kwoods:

It was a friend who got me thinking about this. She said that climbing (along with one other activity, can't remember what) were cited as examples of masochism.

I'm wondering if its true more in climbing than many other sports. Getting pumped, getting totally scared, and getting oneself into awkward contorted positions are prerequisites for climbing at any level. Maybe its these masochistic traits that make it a sport than most people outside of it can't understand.

In reply to stp:

It is if you're pushing your limits otherwise its just a safe activity and a nice way to get out for a few hours.
Unless you're bouldering.

In reply to stp:

Surely anyone who wants to excel at their chosen sport has to suffer for it? That's the definition of passion for something.

Personally I just want to relax in beautiful places with good company doing something exciting and occasionally a little bit scary. Nothing masochistic there!

In reply to stp:

I don't think it's masochism, because that would imply that the pain is the intended purpose - pain is just a side effect on the path to what climbing really brings you - be it excitement, fulfillment, whatever.

In reply to stp:


Not much for me. I put up with a bit of pain every now and then, like an awkward hand jam or a shitty hanging belay or getting absolutely pumped solid, but that's not what I go out looking for. I'm trying to achieve the best, most rewarding experience and that's usually in the sun, not quite falling off, and with enough water and flapjack to hand. Mainly pretty pleasant, but exciting and fulfilling if the routes are good and fairly close to my limit.

Different story I'm sure for people who train really hard, or like winter or alpine climbing, but just as an average trad plodder there's not much pain involved at all.

In reply to stp:

When I was about 13 years old, my swimming trainer (been training 5 days a week 3+ hours each and competed in national level) told me that if I want to achieve any better results, I should do training twice a day, once before school and one after, meaning I would spend like 30 hours in chlorine a week. I wasn't bothered to become a professional swimmer as it is quite terrible sport (well, 7 years of training makes everything terrible).

Yes, while you swim, your body is rather relaxed, you don't risk get injured or drowned (though while pushing my limit, things can go wrong). But that offer was as masochistic as it can get. Psychologically, but I'd rather get hurt than spend 30 hours a week in a 25m long lane swimming back and forth.

Since then, I enjoy all sports I do and I don't care if I don't push my limits. It's not worth the effort unless you want to become a professional. The same with climbing.

In reply to stp:

I used to think climbing was masochistic, but then I had a go at long distance triathlon and changed my mind.

In reply to Ciro:



Probably the best thing I've ever read on this forum!

In reply to stp:

Stay away from offwidths and hard jamming routes and it's probably not that masochistic! In the case of winter climbing the masochism comes more from getting battered by the weather.

In reply to stp:

Nope, it's a pleasurable and enjoyable activity, where you live in the moment, and enjoy some great scenery to boot.

In reply to stp:


To me, this sounds like lazy popular journalism and/or wanky pseudo-academic 'research'. The original meaning of masochism is sexual gratification through pain and/or humiliation. Obviously colloquially we refer to it as joy through pain (typically in overcoming pain), e.g. in getting pumped shitless, slogging through the rain with a heavy pack, etc. The first meaning is quite specific; the second rather less so. Which meaning was your friend using?



Obviously if you're going to get good at anything (swimming, marathon, etc), you're going to have to put serious effort into it. And it's going to hurt. So, to get good at practically anything, you're going to have to learn to deal with pain - physical and/or psychological (e.g. repeated redpoint failure). The best way of doing that is to do what Ondra does (no surprises here!) transmute the pain into the joy of overcoming pain as the way to get better.

I think you hit the 'arena of truth' in climbing faster than in most things. Being a novice is scary. Going to Cloggy for your first time is probably going to be scary. Leading your first E1 or E3 or E5 is probably going to be scary. Your first sea-cliff... your first time lost in a whiteout, the first time you think you're going to die.

Of course you get used to it. But it's always there, the knowledge that just one f*ckup is all it takes. And that makes it so special. You put a lot in. You get a lot out.

'To be on the wire is life... the rest is waiting.'

Mick

In reply to stp:
In Paul Dolan's book Happiness by Design he talks about happiness being a function of two inputs. Pleasure is the first. I feel this when I am climbing comfortably and not stretching myself. Or indoors when I'm pottering. The second is purpose. When I'm on fingerboard, or indoors pushing myself I think it generates happiness through the knowledge that it is moving me (hopefully) towards my climbing goals.

When I am on lead, at my limit (or close to it) - pleasure? In the moment, scanning rock, feeling competent, feeling alive... And don't forget the memories I'm making which will bring pleasure every time I think back to the day and the climb. Purpose - if I f**k up I'll really hurt myself. Nothing focuses the mind (I.e. Gives you purpose) than that I don't think!

If masochism is "seeking happiness" then yes, I totally agree - climbing is a masochistic activity.

In reply to stp:

We have taken most of the hardship out of life. We surround ourselves with gadgets and machines that make life easy.

We've forgotten what hard work is and feels like.

We don't even wash our clothes by hand.

When the going gets a bit tough we call it masochism?

I just call it being alive.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

That's probably why we are able to go climbing! In the past life was perhaps too hard for many to consider such 'leisure'.

In reply to stp:


0% for me.

In reply to stp:

aye, if i was in it for the suffering i'd be loving life right now, sitting on the sofa with a buggered ankle while i've time off and the sun is beaming outside. This sucks. I ain't loving it. I'm not sure there's really all that much hardship when you're climbing. Yes, i've slogged in the alpine, dragged my ass of a wet sleeping bag into the predawn for some winter climbing, i've shredded my fingers in cracks, i've thrutched up and an offwidth to the point i thought i might puke and i've been strung out and scared. And no, none of this is suffering. This is all leisure time, and it's not masochism that makes me think that. It's that i'm in it on my own terms, i've opted in.
now, i'm not saying climbing isn't hard (it'd be boring if it wasn't) but hard isn't suffering.
Of course it can involve suffering. The death of a friend. Your own accidents. But these things are never why we climb