UKC

Hi I've been climbing in the gym for around a year now and have been making good progress I recently toped my 1st route on the 45° boulder wall it was a V1/V2.

But whenever I climb out side I always feel I'm out of my grade on Thursday I went for a trip to Burbage south boulders and only toped 2climbs a V0 and a V1 the V0 been in my opinion substantially harder as to top out all I could find to grip was a crimp just big enouth for 2 fingers. Yet in the gym a V0 uses just jugs big enough to take a bath in

Am I alone in this?? Is it just me total blind in reading the route??

In reply to bobble off:
Indoor grades are notoriously unreliable and inflated at the lower levels. Outdoor (ie proper) V0 problems are sustained UK tech 5a or have single UK tech 5b moves across a much wider range of styles than you will find indoors (unless graded by Rockfax, who use a slightly softer system they made up for themselves where V0 is 4c) . By V3 (Font6A+) you should be climbing solid UK 6a tech which is rare on indoor problems of that grade. It is not uncommon for V3 indoor problems to be V0- (UK 4c) some are even VB (UK 4b) . I wish the walls would change but sadly ego inflated grades seem to be the norm.

In reply to bobble off:

No, you are not alone. Can't comment on bouldering, I don'take it serious enough to worry about grades, but I know several climbers who climb 7a indoors and are reduced to 6a outdoors or even lower, VS on trad. I've asked them about this, they say it's because they cannot "read" the routes. Most people I know who started outdoors, and I include myself, do not seem to experience the same difficulty but we tend to be crap indoors. My grades are roughly the same, currently 6b+ indoors and outdoors on sport E2 5c trad.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:
There is also an experience issue with indoor boulderers reading outdoor problems and routes. The outdoor problems have wider technical requirements that may well be a mystery to the inexperienced and no colour coded holds to guide the way. The crux on your E2 5c routes will likely only be V1 (Font 5+) but with the weight of a rack andathe risk of a fall in prospect if you mess up, its way more impressive than that lowly number would seem.

In reply to Offwidth:

Ta for that man. Well in hoping to climb 99% out doors now I've invested in a pad and hopefully get my grade up I really love climbing outside more then in the gym

In reply to bobble off:

I've never climbed indoors so can't comment first hand. I do get the impression though that indoor grades are a lot easier than crag grades. I have witnessed many instances of people who for example who can climb 6a or so indoors coming to a crag for the first time and failing on V Diff.

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:

I don't think that they are really easier as such. They are certainly far more physical but they don't really have a large psychological element associated with them which means people can push themselves to the limits. They are also more obvious apart from those on moulded/featured faces which do feel more like outdoors.

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:

Font 6a is Font 6a its an international norm. I'd put money that those you saw falling on a VDiff havent climbed anything near that grade although some Vdiffs have spat out genuine talented boulderers being a bit careless....like Swimmers Chimney at Froggatt. Bad grading exists outdoors as well (90+% of sub Font 6a problems at Font are sandbags due to polish and intransigence of the locals to change)

In reply to GridNorth:


Well, don't forget that indoor walls are usually graded on the French sport system while outdoor trad climbs are graded on the British technical scale so indoor 7a (French) would have moves at about outdoor 6b grade. Of course, to confuse things further sports climbs outdoor are also graded on the French scale.

And, for some reason, climbs in Portland are just assigned random numbers that have nothing to do with the climb difficulty at all.

In reply to BarrySW19:

I like that old saying that really there are only two grades, those you can get up and those you can't.

I only only use grades as a rough guide as to if I stand a chance of getting up something on-sight. I don't do redpointing.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

Think all you like but you are wrong. If you climb indoor problems in many walls and outdoor problems and routes a lot you can isolate technical difficulty from the risk factor. On indoor colour circuits starting at V3 the easiest problems commonly have UK 4c/5a crux moves. Very few walls are honest, NCC being one of the ones I use a lot that has been consistently so. Speaking to Flopiscle last night at the Nottm Depot comp (congrats for being top female vet btw) despite her inexperience she knew their easiest V3s (red problems start at V3) were usually only NCC UK tech 4c/5a.

In reply to bobble off:

Personally I think the whole 'indoor climbers can't climb hard outside' line has been thoroughly debunked by this stage. Many of the top climbers now started out indoors.

I climbed indoors for 12 years before starting climbing outside two years ago. I seem to have done alright out of it.

To the OP: Burbage is gritstone, and gritstone is very knacky to climb on. A bit more mileage will see you easily meet those indoor standards, it's merely (like most things) a matter of practice. Working with slabs and slopers indoors will result in a vast improvement the next time you get out.

In reply to GridNorth:

Blather blather. There are grades you can do easily, grades you can do, grades you can just do, grades you can work quickly and grades you can work over time and as you get better or more experinced (or worse) the border level shifts and blow me, you get a list of regularly gradated grades.

In reply to GridNorth:

I must agree don't own a guide book and only know the grades of routes I've seen on online topo guides. Most of the time when out I look for chalk on a rock as this tells me its a route and I give it a go not knowing the grade.

In reply to Offwidth:

Few people can isolate technical difficulty from risk. Doing a 5c move 5 metres away from a runner is a far different thing from doing it with a runner in front of your nose but if we are talking bouldering and to some extent indoor climbing I agree.

I think we would also agree that indoor grades are all over the place. Just last night I on sighted a 6c but failed on a 6b that I have attempted many times. It can also be move dependent which can become much more apparent indoors. The 6b involves getting your left foot up very high and in whilst pulling off a poor sloper. At 66 years old, 6 foot and 12 stone, I just cannot get my leg up onto the hold. Outdoors there would possibly be the tiniest wrinkle that would just be enough but this is on smooth hardboard.

In reply to MischaHY:

I agree grit just needs patience and practice... and thats also just what you need to get better indoors. That doesn't alter the fact that that the average V0 on grit is a lot harder than the average V0 indoors, even for experienced grit punters like me. This is due to widespread indoor overgrading at the lower grades.

In reply to GridNorth:

Nonsense. Lots of experienced boulderers can isolate difficulty from risk on boulder problems. The grades may be wrong but equally your 6b is most likely a style your old body doesnt like whereas the 6c is one you do.

In reply to Offwidth:

I tend not to worry about the grades too much indoors - unless its a comp route, in which case they should be as on the money as possible. Indoors is mostly training, and therefore for me it's more about focussing on the 'feel' of the route and session intensity, rather than trying to throw a specific grade at it.

In reply to Offwidth:

But there is very little risk to isolate when bouldering. I agree with your second statement but that was essentially what I was saying.

In reply to GridNorth:


What about the third grade. Those you can't climb YET.

In reply to GridNorth:

Biggest risk in bouldering is when someone has led a route, and just as you want to boulder the start, his second wants to get on the route. Happened to us yesterday. The guy was also spraying so much chalk all over the start of the route I had to clean my specs. He was also on the same problem when I was leading. If I had seen him I would have said something. My second was too polite.
In my experience most walls (but not all) make the easier grades very easy (to appeal to the new climbers ego) and gradually get them closer to outdoor grades as they get harder. Eg. At one wall everything up to 6a+ is very soft, and then there is a big gap up to 6b. The odd wall is consistently soft so at least you know where you stand, if you climb 6b there you can 5+/6a outside.
Maybe we should employ "grade police", or train up the "ethics police" to do this job?

In reply to johncook:

You would think that indoors there would be some degree of consistency. They are, after all, pretty efficient when it comes to rules and certificates etc.

In reply to Oceanrower:

Absolutely. I'm in a funny position because I took 25 years out of climbing. Still only understand English tech, despite all the conversion tables. But grades are like fingerposts in the sticks. They sometimes point the right way. Sometimes the locals have swivelled them round.

Two Burbage examples. The r arete on the brick sit start. 6a no way. One pull and you're in balance. Tiger at supposed 6b is sometimes easy and sometimes desperate.

Easy to over-analyse any of this stuff. Your body and mind know when you've done well, and that can vary day to day.

In reply to bobble off:

I started off indoors and have just started off outdoors. The difference is massive I went out yesterday in Loughborough and tried a v1 and couldn't top out whereas indoors at the depot notts I can do some v6's and the black and red problems at ncc consistently. There's a massive difference in your mind about your safety outside also the difference in the type of rock youre climbing on plays a massive factor

In reply to bobble off:

Comparing grades on plastic and rock is misleading, as they're practically different sports. It's like playing a lot of tennis then wondering why you're having a hard time with squash.

When I did a lot of indoor climbing, I'd send my first of any grade on plastic. Having been away from walls for two years, I'd probably struggle to climb three grades below what I'm currently doing outside.

In reply to David Alcock:

If you mean Alaska Low/ Slot Arete sit start on The Brick.... its just wrongly graded everywhere as we point out on the 'Offwidth' site (It's V1/ F5+ at most) but to be fair that face has suffered heavily from overuse erosion (the F4 wall just left ..Cicely.. has trashed pockets that used to be a good F6A on tricky shallow dishes). Tiger was an old Rockfax misgrade (B0 !) long outed ....being a pull and slap it is knacky.

In reply to Ciro:
Another myth. Its perfectly possible to use the same bouldering grades properly on any medium, including indoors. All these myths are just excuses for the bad grading which blights low grade bouldering. If you lack practice on a medium and your grade is lower why would you be surprised? A grade just measures the difficulty of the easiest sequence for the average climber with adequate experience/competance in the neccesary technique.

In reply to Offwidth:


Of course that's perfectly possible. It's just not possible to set natural rock routes using plastic and painted ply wood - if you practice one more than the other, you'll get better at it.

In reply to Ciro:
If you get better through practice, your grade level has improved. The problem grades remain the same: the climber who lacks skills in the unpracticed medium feels that correct grades are harder but thats due to them. The difference between grit problems and indoor problems with rough sloping bolt-on holds on a sanded paint surface is way less than the difference between grit and limestone.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yeah, that's the one. I still can't do the Sheep though. But I hear I'm in good company there!

In reply to David Alcock:

I can't touch the Sheep but I'm not good enough to be good company

In reply to Offwidth:


This^^
It doesn't just apply to bouldering, indoor sport routes in the 6s and low 7s are mostly ladders compared to the crag.
This is with the worthy exception of the Foundry and Works which are closer than most.

In reply to Offwidth:


Poppycock. Since when has ability been the measure of fun?

In reply to Kassius:

With respect, if you're failing to top out a V1, even outdoors, then those V6's you've been doing aren't actually V6. Anyone who has the skill/strength to boulder V6/F7A indoors would make very short work of an outdoor V1, regardless of rock type.

In reply to MischaHY:
Thats not necessarily true. Try a real V6 indoor steep problem boulderer who has never jammed on a V1 pure jamming crack, or similar on a V1 rounded hip-roll finish. It is true some Depot 'V6' problems are probably as easy as V2 (eg the yellow on the left by the door to the training room).

In reply to GridNorth:


This is my new grading system

In reply to Offwidth:

Obviously there's specific exceptions, but even so.

In reply to bobble off:
There are lots of things that combine to make outdoor and indoor grades feel very different, but the main one for someone starting outside is just lack of experience on rock. When that rock is holdless slabby grit, this accentuates the problem enormously - it's nothing like indoor climbing, you pretty much have to learn it from scratch.

Personally I find outdoor grades in the Peak generally easier than indoor grades at the Climbing Works. And it isn't lack of practice at either, over the winter I climb twice a week on both. The indoor problems are powerful, whereas the outdoor ones required more knack and maybe some commitment. But many grit problems are just physically way easier (you need much less strength) than what you get at the same grade at the Climbing Works. This is true around the V4-6 mark (although there are plenty of V4s and V6s in the Peak that feel about the same difficulty to me). At the lower grades the walls have adapted the system to make V0 and V1 suitable for novices which isn't the case in the proper grades.

The best bit is when you turn up at a crag with lots of problems grades V0, V1, etc only to discover that they're all 30ft high above death landings, and all green and shitty too...(this happens often in Yorkshire). Definitely not the same as your indoor grades then!

In reply to Ciro:



I concur, though perhaps wouldn't go as far as to say practically different sports. (Indoor and outdoor sport aren't all that different in my eyes).

Even if indoor was consistently and competently graded, I think we'd still find we were all climbing different grades inside and out. It's a different style of climbing. I recall myself and a friend feeling good about ourselves, we spent a lot of time climbing ~17-19 (ewbank) on sandstone. One day we embarked up a 13 granite crack. We made an absolute mess of it. We'd gotten relatively good at face climbing, but come a crack - we were useless.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Come on Jon there is more to difficulty than physicality so no need to deny your strengths to defend walls.

How does sticking a dishonest label on a beginners problem help them? I'd say it does the opposite as the transition to the outside is difficult enough as it is with the differences in style and risk.

Also The Works is one of the better examples on grade honesty on the easier circuits. I've even climbed the odd slight sandbag there..

In reply to needvert:

So are the differences between face climbs and cracks more than the differences between similar styled problems indoors and out. I think they clearly are and the difference moving outdoors on safe standard problems is way overstated. The real important difference between outdoors and in is in the area of risk: especially, as Jon said, height, dirty rock and bad landings sometimes combined with unfamiliar technical requirements. Highball Shipley Glen obscurities made me nervous onsight at Font 2+ despite all my experience.

In reply to bobble off:

Just be patient, get out on rock as much as possible and it'll come. The biggest thing to remember, and I mean no disrespect in saying this, is that indoors you can climb absolutely *horribly* and still get up a lot of problems. Outside and especially on grit you need to develop plenty of other skills rather than just pulling hard.

In my experience, one of the key differences between indoor and outdoor climbing is the top out, something you never do in a bouldering gym but that's often as important as the climb itself for the grading (at least here in Font). Mantling is freakin' hard and often awkward, and that's not something you can prepare for in a gym, so to me it is no surprise that one would struggle transitioning from indoor to outdoor climbing. That certainly was my experience when I moved to Font, I used to climb V6/6C in different gyms, then came here and had a hard time topping out 4s and 5s. It took me 4 months of intensive climbing to get back to 6C.

I would also add that friction and feet placement play a much greater role in outdoor climbing, you often have to smear against the rock, which you don't do that much indoors (at least not when you climb 5s and easy 6s). Gym climbing is more about power to me.

One last point I would emphasize is commitment and exposure. It's much easier to give all you have when the floor is padded with mats than when it's covered with rocks and roots (despite the crash pad, unless you have 5 or 6 of them).

In reply to Offwidth:


Well I don't know. I always thought that boulder grades were just meant to be a "pure" grade not influenced by the height of the crux, landing, etc. Grading for physicality only seems a consistent way to grade to me. In Font it often feels like the grade is for how much strength you need, presuming you're climbing with flawless technique, thus a tricky 4c feels just as hard as a straightforward 6c (although there is just the crap grading to contend with too). Whereas in the Peak it seems we grade for "trickiness" more.

And I'm never that certain of how grades for really technical problems are supposed to work. For example, there are two problems on the Egg at Cratcliff that are both super-technical (the brilliant arete and the wall far left) and I and many others find the left one a notch harder despite the grades. They're graded 5+ and 6a+ or something but a grade anywhere up to from 6a to 6c+ for either would satisfy me. They're not very strengthy, but you really have to get them just right. If difficulty for me is measured by the number of goes taken, then these could be really quite hard, given that there are 7as (ones I've done plenty) that will go first time.

There are many problems, hard slabs and aretes in the 7s, where people say "no strength needed, it's all technique". Yet only people who can climb steep 7s in the works seem to be able to climb them...I'm not sure all that strength is really so irrelevant.


I didn't imply that. I just said that the walls have adapted the V grades to start at 0 for novices, which isn't how they actually work, but is what the walls have done. I am absolutely ambivalent about this!


Bags of sand abound in the Works on every circuit!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Technique on such problems is partly the developed application of strength and power through careful positioning and movement but its not all physicality. Some of the most physically powerful men I know can't climb for toffee but they can move ridiculous weights compared to their own.

Those Egg problems use a lot of my strength, being a bit heavy. A weight belt soon sorts out how much strength is really required... its amazing how 'all technique' problems get, hard, when wearing one.

In reply to bobble off:

Part of the problem is that outdoor climbing isn't the same as coloured plastic - you don't know right away what is the best hold to use. Generally indoors they don't put lots of small holds that are useless to hide the one good one.

Secondly, it's also a lot more scary outdoors, lets face it you won't hurt yourself much (if at all) leading an indoor route but there is plenty to go wrong outdoors. If you scared then you are more likely to get pumped and make mistakes.

Finally, I think indoor places are graded more softly, because people complain about "hard routes" and like to feel as if they are better than they actually are. People don't like to pay money to climb in a gym where they feel like they can't climb at the same level as another gym. Where as outdoors all routes come from volenteers who aren't needing to please anyone but themselves.

In reply to bobble off:

Like the rockfax conversion tables, we should create an indoor to outdoor conversion table.

Anyone feeling bored today?

In reply to treforsouthwell:

People clearly do pay mojey to climb at harder graded walls or such places would be empty. Not every indoor climber has ego problems.

Part of the answer would just be to get rid of V grades! They just don't work at the easier end, best expressed by the ridiculous way Devon granite bouldering is graded... V0-, V0, V0+ but also using English tech grades (4a, 4c etc) below that despite English tech grades being equally useless below 4! Some of our novices would struggle to get up anything graded V-anything on the Moor...

Font grades all the way, with the realisation that the numbers 1 and 2 exist - why are indoor centres allergic to them? I have climbed very worthwhile problems at that grade, and had to give people beta on them (gently angled slabs with a sufficient but minimal number of holds).

Just makes me want to go back to Font again now where a problem doesn't have to be hard to be included...

PS almost by definition, Font should set what Font grades are (once you account for polish and grade inaccuracy which is still a problem). I believe _on average_ low graded stuff in Font makes sense - 1s are super easy, 2s are still easy, 3s require thought to do in best style, 4s a little more and 5s are quite tricky, with most new novices probably getting most of the 2/3s first go and having a good stab at most of the 4s.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

I normally work font 6a or more when trying hard in Font. At the same venue I've failed to climb many a font 3 and even the odd font 2. I also know quiet areas where the grades give an indication of what they once were. If we use font grades we need to use the YMC or VG anglisied version not the random nonsense you get in France.

V grades also have VB below V0-, The Climbing Station uses this honestly and successfully indoors so it can be done. The BMC also used UK tech alongside V0- to get over the low grade issue. People know what a UK 4a move is and when putting in their font 3 will normally be converting from UK trad (as per the YMC)

In reply to Offwidth:

I think the British trad grades give you the most information about a climb, severity, how hard work it's going to be and the technical grade. I don't see any reason why technical grades couldn't go below 4a and indeed you could grade a boulder problem with a trad grade too (based on having no gear).

In reply to treforsouthwell:

point 1: I agree but this thread has been mostly about bouldering (where this information is redundant/not needed). point 2: I also agree but they don't (find me a climb with an English tech grade lower than 3c)! Grades below 4 are not used enough for them have meaning for most people. What is an English 2c tech move?? Plus my understanding is that English tech grades are a bastardized version of Southern Sandstone grades, which are a bastardized version of... Font grades (correct me if this story is horrendously apocryphal).

In reply to Offwidth:

But it all adds to the fun :P Ok, yes there is plenty of scatter in Font but it's not _that_ bad - there were no font 3's (no font 4s I remember?) I couldn't get up last trip (I normally flash some/most 4s and work 5s albeit only done about 300 problems in three trips) apart from one traverse I didn't only gave 2/3 go's. I will grant you that the letter grade (a/b/c) is mostly imaginative and the +/- pure optimism

In reply to andrewmcleod:


It's what a UK tech 2c mode will be after Scotland gets Independence.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

You must be avoiding the slabs on the worst areas. I've climbed there for a few months in total now mostly doing blue, orange and yellow circuits and picking the odd harder line that looks good and have lost count of the problems I've done (many thousands).

In reply to andrewmcleod:


Canche aux Merciers?

In reply to Offwidth:


Far too many walls don't though, and I think that's the root of the problem. They want to use nice simple V grades because it's just V0, V1, V2 and so on with no need to worry about confusing pluses and letters. But they also want grades for "something a nervous first-timer can get up in trainers" and "something an average first timer can get up in trainers" and "something a good first timer can get up in trainers", so they use V0, V1 and V2 for those and adjust the rest appropriately.

At the end of the day you can adjust for this once you know it happens, but I feel a bit sorry for novices who take their first trip outside and get totally demotivated because they can't get up V0, let alone the V5 they're climbing at the wall. (And I sometimes wonder whether novice sport climbers ever come totally unstuck by planning their first trip abroad on the assumption that 6a's are warm-up routes...)

In reply to Ramblin dave:


Certainly happens when we take people to Portland for the first time, where the 2s and 3s are reasonable but those people doing 6a's can easily fail on the 4s and 5s...

I actually top-roped two allegedly 6a routes on my first ever day climbing at my local centre. Since then the grades have got a lot more reasonable with the end result being that as I got better the grades got stiffer and I just kept climbing the same grade!

In reply to bobble off:

Forget indoor grades they,re meaningless. I was with someone at the Works who has led F8B+ outdoors but failed on a yellow prob. 5+/6A
Get stronger indoors then apply it to real problems outdoors. Simples!
For really mean grades try Font. or Churnet

In reply to rocksol:


Font grades are mean ? they are the definitive for font grades !

In reply to GrahamD:

Definitive US V grades are just as mean. Its the brits who soften things.

In reply to GrahamD:
Someone once said to me that Font is graded retrospectively. That is to say - it ignores reading or how hard a route is to work out/start.

This makes a lot of sense to me to explain why lower graded routes, especially orange/blue/red/lower blacks at font seem notorious sandbags. A bleusard comes along and tells you that you start this one with a hop onto a hold you can't see around the back of the route - ignore those tiny holds you were desperately trying to pull on. Suddenly that 5a makes sense as 5a, not the eliminate you had decided you should climb.

I think that the overgrading of indoor routes is unhelpful, but an inevitable result of the fact that 99% of those who go indoors to climb casually or semi casually are weak and bad at climbing (Myself included). Therefore, instead of having most of the routes as VB-, VB, VB+, V0-, V0, V0+, V1-, V1, V1+ (which is probably an accurate description of most indoor boulder routes up to V7), they just keep counting higher. Only the competition problems (or the "super hard for hard climbing training" routes at most places come close to grades).

Interestingly, if you go to the indoor bouldering centre in Fontainebleau where they swear that their grading is bang on, you can see the "routefinding" difficulty in action. On my last trip I went from onsighting every blue, flashing most reds and getting some blacks indoors to onsighting oranges, flashing a few blues and getting one or two reds.

In reply to neuromancer:


Surely all boulder grades should be for the easiest beta (not the flash); similarly with sport grades? But yes, I agree with your hypothesis of Font 'sandbags' - when I watch much better climbers flash the 3s and 4s they don't usually do it in the 'best' way (because they really don't have to)...

In reply to andrewmcleod:

I disagree. Imagine a climb where half way up there was an actual invisible hold. By your argument that climb would be graded exactly the same as one where the hold is visible.

In reply to bobble off:

I had always thought that French Grades were for the "Redpoint" but I know that at Orpierre the local guide specifically states that they are graded for the on-sight. Go figure?

In reply to neuromancer:
That's bullshit pasting over laziness. The sandbags are just that and have occurred mainly because problems have got very polished over the years with no associated change of grade . Very quiet areas indicate what the grades once were like. Plenty of us are good enough to spot other possibilities and there are some problems like that but not many.

Amusingly there is a f4 crack at the back of Diplodocus that numerous euro punters struggle on but for VS grit jammers its a one handed approach shoe problem (or a UK standard f3 in sensible shoes ...f2 normal equivalent in local currency)