UKC

It's a sorry day when you have to get lowered off a HVS cos your head goes. On second. Especially when I've previously led E6.

I'm sure there's no quick answer but I'm having a torrid time at the minute on trad stuff, just can't get my head around it and previously used to love it. Climbing volume isn't too bad - 2-3 times a week at the minute, mainly at the wall and not been outside much for the last few months, but 3 days out of the last 7 managed to get to the crag and seriously, seriously papping myself on anything and everything - lead, second, solo!

Guess I just need to get out more, but anyone been through similar dark spells and can offer any light at the end of the tunnel??

In reply to dashed:

Yeah I've got a mate who went through a patch like that after injury. He got through it by taking some falls on purpose, starting top roped then eventually trad increasing the height above gear. That got him back so it might be worth a shot.

In reply to dashed:

Horaah - join the club. I seconded an e5 the other day i had led only 2 years ago and felt gripped! I couldnt actually understand how i had ever managed to lead it. I then proceeded to wobble my way up a super safe E1 feeling like my head was to explode!

This is coming back from a large lay off through injury and lack of psyche due to being shit.

In reply to dashed:

Oh and my plan to sort it out is to...... Top rope! Top rope all the routes that I have already onsighted. Then maybe relead some of the harder ones to remind myself that I can still climb. And train harder. And lose some weight. And take some more falls. And climb a lot more. And then go to Pembroke and do loads of softies

In reply to dashed:

It's all about the practice falls on trad gear. And doing safe but hard routes so that you take some naturally induced whippers.

In reply to dashed:

Ditch the wall, they stuff your head up.

In reply to dashed:
You could try bouldering at 'ouch' height, start at easy to jump down from and progress to being higher, just to get used to it being down to what you do to keep you safe?

In reply to theomoore and dashed:


Can you really be arsed to do this though? When I go out climbing, I want to go out climbing, not falling. I know it'd be the way to really get to the next level with trad, but just to get comfortable it seems a bit drastic and takes away your climbing time.

I'd say get on some really enjoyable easier routes you've done before. Just getting back into being relaxed on trad is enough for me - I still totally shit myself when it's hard enough to actually be nearly-off territory, but that's all part of the fun. While it's rarely that dangerous, I find that falling off trad just is a completely terrifying experience and I'm pretty happy to leave it that way. I accept that that's not the path to climbing really hard, getting routes after a couple of goes if necessary - but it's been fine for me plodding up to E3/4, with those experiences at the top of my grade being really fulfilling because I'm nearly falling off and having to try really hard to hold it together. When I do fall off actually trying, above my gear, it can be a brilliant experience, not just a failure.

I'm all for being comfortable when the climbing's OK, and then completely terrified when I'm nearly off.

In reply to theomoore:


Really? That's a pretty shitty attitude. If we were all taking practice falls on to trad gear the rock would be absolutely bolloxed.

Bouldering at a spicy height helps me with my trad head, as well as just lots and lots of mileage.
I say this a lot, but instead of doing 2-3 routes at the limit of your grade, bang out 10-15 that are a little easier. Acclimatise yourself to being on rock, placing plenty of gear, cruising confidently.
It may not work for others but that's how I get through rough patches when I'm crapping myself.
Much more enjoyable and less frustrating too.

In reply to dashed: what are you doing - overholding and pumping out? Reducing to climb above gear? I would find a strategi where i could really relaxed climbing mid grade stuff and take it from there. Slabby 5b's

In reply to deacondeacon:


Yes it would.

In reply to dashed:

There is no logic to it, when your head goes. There may be a reason that is not obvious, slight ear infection making you feel unstable, bad news, other worries.
I have had days where in the morning I have led at my limit, and in the afternoon had a panic on a steep footpath, and vice versa. Worst case, had a full weight attack of the fears when three feet off the ground with the first bolt clipped on something I had led before. Day after led a grade harder than my best! With no shakes/fears/panics/pulling on gear.
Just keep climbing more and eventually your climbing head will come back. I am now back suddenly to pushing my limit again in a consistent way, and only occasionally throw a wobbly, usually on something easy where I am not focussed.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


It's certainly not the most fun you can have, but if you enjoy improving, or really want to improve, then it's worth it.

Re: damaging the rock. I have never seen any damage from falling on cam placements, and if I did I certainly wouldn't do it. I started doing it after being told some proffesional climbers recommend it, so I wouldn't think it's damaging if that's the case.

In reply to theomoore:

So which professional climbers were recommending this?
I find it pretty hard to believe that you've managed to climb up to E7 without ever seeing a damaged gear placement.

In reply to theomoore:


Many moons ago I took a serious fall that stopped me climbing (or doing much of anything physical) for several years. When I did improve enough to get back into it, I went on a 'refreshers' day just to get back into the swing of things - and to convince myself that climbing really isn't THAT dangerous. One if the things the instructor did was climb about 20 feet up a classic route (Black and Tan at Bowden Doors - northumberland) and stuck a cam behind a 'solid' flake. He then leant back on it to show how secure the placement was. The flake immediately gave way, resulting in major damage to him and to the route. This wasn't a fall, just body weight. I took up sport climbing shortly afterwards. Have had several seriously close calls since BTW. We like to convince ourselves...

In reply to dashed:
If you find your (cojones) then let me know how much you want for them

Mine aren't working very well at the moment.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Dave Macleod recommends it.

In reply to deacondeacon:


So few folk will actually do it though that I can't see it ever becoming an issue.

Personally I think it's a lot less scary to just get into a (safe) situation where you've got no choice but to fall off, than to do so deliberately. I mean doing a well protected route at your limit - if you can't do it then by default you fall off. The main challenge is not to ask for a tight rope when there's gear above you. Once you're above the gear coming off becomes less attractive.

In reply to dashed:

One thing I would say is that I find leading stuff onsight is more motivating and actually less gripping than seconding stuff which is at/beyond my limit or even repeating hard stuff I previously onsighted. My psyche is really only right for the onsight. Authentic desire and all that I suspect.

So try onsighting your way slowly up through the grades but starting easy...?

In reply to dashed:

Don't worry mate. Yesterday I ended up dogging a HS, that I'd easily led many years ago. Bad spells happen from time to time, just keep yourself in shape and I'm sure form and confidence will return.

In reply to dashed:

Thanks all - reassuring it's not just me! I've got a weekend of plodding up steady routes I know I've done and that have decent gear to hopefully find my mojo!

As for taking practice lobs onto good gear - apart from ethics of damaging the rock - it won't help me as you can manufacture a situation which is as safe as a bolted route but that doesn't replicate the situation when you're 8 feet above a dodgy wire that you don't have much faith in!

In reply to theomoore:

Look at the placement on Topsail, Birchens, Three Pebble Slab, Froggatt, to name two, where gear placements are wrecked. There are many many others around the Peak. No doubt someone can add to the list, eg The Arete, at Aldery etc. The list of damaged gear placements is massive, and this is a result of accidental falls, not deliberate falls of increasing distance to 'get your head round falling'. Want to practice falling, go indoors. Climb to your limit, and if you fall you get all the practice you need.

In reply to dashed:

It's hard to know whether it's changing perspective with the passing years or just a lack of familiarity but I'm suffering the same problem. I've not climbed much trad in the last few years and I was never bold but my head is a mess especially on easy stuff with lots to hit. I doubt there's an easy fix but to avoid easy ledgy stuff with lots to hit but that requires some fitness and the belief to get on it!

jk

In reply to johncook:

These are routes with specific placements where the gear has to go, there is no harm in taking practice falls if there is a big break that you can put gear anywhere in. Practice falls help, there is no doubt about it.

In reply to robertmctague:

Hitting gear hard damages the placement and the rock. There may be a placement next to the damaged spot but that is not the point. I know that by climbing we damage the rock, but most of us take as much care as we can, cleaning our shoes so we don't wear the footholds etc. Deliberately crashing onto gear placements, however numerous is deliberate damage and will eventually spoil the route.

In reply to johncook:


Anyone who uses the cam slot in Topsail is foolish because they will have blocked a perfect fist jam which makes the crux much easier.

In reply to Jimbo C:


What a strange way to climb this route, but each to their own.

In reply to dashed:


Manufacture a situation where you've got bomber backup below the dodgy wire, and you'll find out if the wire was deserving of some faith. The more you test your placements, the more you can rely on your judgement the next time.

In reply to Ciro:


The guy's climbed E6, I'm sure he knows what he's doing. Taking a fall onto a dodgy wire will tell you something about that particular placement but not a lot else. It will also wreck your wires and potentially the rock. The problem we're on about here is irrationally getting the fear, not being incompetent or inexperienced with gear.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


You may well be right, but I don't know him personally so I wouldn't make that assumption - some people climb quite hard grades without having taken many falls on gear at all.


Correct, however taking 20 falls onto dodgy placements will tell you a lot about what holds and what doesn't.


Wires are replaceable, and as you already pointed out, every time you climb you potentially wreck the rock.


My response was to his point about a rational fear (falling above a dodgy wire). But when it comes to irrational fear, it's even more important to do falling practice in the scenario where the fear presents itself. The subconscious isn't wired to easily accept a logical explanation that falling on a bolt in the gym and falling on a good wire are the same thing - it wants proof through repetitive experience.

In reply to Ciro:

That could mean they're good enough to climb at their grade without constantly falling off?


If you deliberately take 20 falls onto dodgy placements, I guarantee at least one of them will rip, and then what?


Bones unfortunately not as easy to replace.


Applying a sport mentality and approach to trad - irrespective of the grade - could result in getting on first name terms with the A&E department.

This whole 'practice falling' concept when applied to trad, is full of presumption - what do they say presumption is the mother of?

When you're suffering from a bit of a head meltdown on the trad, chucking yourself off routes for the sake of it, could quite possibly exasperate the problem, not cure it.

I'm with Goucho and Jon Stewart here I'm afraid! I've placed a lot of gear over the years and know what a decent placement looks and feels like, although admittedly I've not taken a huge number of falls onto trad gear. It's not whether gear is good that matters to my head, I can be a foot above a bomber size 9 nut and still get a good old wobble on. Plus no two placements are the same anyway, so I see little point in fabricating a scenario to demonstrate whether a specific placement will hold of not.

Just a case of volume I think, get back on the rock, lead some routes I've climbed before, build the confidence back up and stop trying to push too hard at the minute.

In reply to dashed:



There's no 'one size fits all' solution to the head f*ck we can all suffer from time to time.

The most important thing is to remove the mental pressure, not add to it.

Drop down a few grades, get back to enjoying the climbing and regain the feel for the rock and the movement. Take time, and don't force it. The head will eventually rewire itself given time.

In reply to Ciro:

>

I can't see the logic in this. If the placements really are 'dodgy' then maybe half of them will blow and the other half will hold. What will that tell you? Trust some and not others? If you know a placement is dodgy, best treat it as such. Back it up or make sure you don't fall off.

If on the other hand you don't know how good your placements are, there are much easier and safer ways of learning - like going on a course or asking someone more experienced.

In reply to dashed: perhaps just drop your grade, build the confidence back up. I don't think there's that many climbers who hit the crag after the winter nights, that are hammering out their pb's. Ive struggled to hit previous high grades after my children were born, injury, a new job, christ even after losing 10kg! Don't sweat it, give yourself a break, try to enjoy the easier climbs, of not having to push yourself. Keep smiling, and just enjoy being out there. You'll be back at it the sooner you relax.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


It would appear that if you're not falling off routes on a regular basis, your not deemed to be pushing yourself hard enough?

Funny, I always thought it was the other way round!

In reply to robertmctague:


Well if DM recommends it, then we should all follow the pied piper through the streets of Hamlyn

Although I have a sneaky suspicion, that DM may have been talking within a certain context, applied to certain types of routes and gear, and as part of an overall strategy for climbing very hard routes?

In reply to Goucho:


Or that "their grade" could be even higher if they were doing a bit of falling off?


Then you'll have a better idea which are the dodgy ones.


Indeed. Which is why I think it's worth doing falling practice in a controlled manner, to make sure you're as informed as possible about the gear underneath you when you're facing a more important decision.


Of course it could. So could driving to the crag, cycling to work, and going for a skiing holiday. Everyone has to make their own risk assessment, for some the performance benefits of falling practice will be worth it, for some they won't.


As i see it, not falling on your gear leaves you working on the presumption that your gear is good. Falling begins to lessen that presumption over time.


Quite possibly. Falling practice on gear is a terrifying ordeal to begin with.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


How do you know what really is dodgy without testing some out? When I started falling, I was pleasantly surprised to find that quite a large percentage of the things I suspected wouldn't hold me actually did.


If that works for you then great. Personally, no matter how experienced the person I'm learning from is, I won't truly believe it until I've seen it for myself.

In reply to dashed:

Assumedly there is a grade you do enjoy and isn't too scary still? I'd suggest just doing what you enjoy and if that is something else than climbing so be it, get back in to climbing hard when it feels right

In reply to Ciro:

With all due respect Ciro you're profile States that you redpoint 8a (a number that most of us can only dream of) and onsight E2.
I'd say that fall practice isn't particularly working for you.

In reply to deacondeacon:



There's a couple of reasons for that... I live in a van in Spain at the moment, and that solitary 8a was recent; most of my trad was done when I was hampered by injury and not all of it was logged. As somebody reminded me recently, my best onsight was probably the crux pitch of La Casa Degli Specchi (E5 6a) in Orco, when I was climbing nowhere near as hard as I am now.

I'm quite happy that the falling practice worked well for me

In reply to Ciro:


The Word According to Garp finally lands on UKC.


Yes, you can write a thesis on it from the spinal unit.


That comment smacks of lack of experience.


Straw man alert.


8a sport, E2 Trad? - this theory doesn't seem to working for you so far - you should be pushing out at least E7, whats wrong with you?

In reply to Ciro:

Well perhaps you're not in the best position to be giving advice on it.

I actually agree with you, practicing falls on bomber, backed up trad gear will benefit your head game. My issue with it is that it's bad for the rock and that if everyone were doing it the gear placements would get trashed rapidly.
So it's fairly irresponsible behaviour that'll leave many routes bolloxed.

In reply to deacondeacon:


You're right - I know nothing. Don't listen to me, read 9 out of 10 climbers instead.

In reply to Goucho:


But then how can you get the two to match up? I lead 6a/6b indoors. This time last year was breaking into HVS territory unitl I fell and busted my ankle. Now I get scared on a Severe! So by a direct 'translation' I should be leading trad E1-ish.

I want my mojo back

In reply to markh554:



There is nothing abnormal in being scared of falling, it's a perfectly rationale and sensible frame of mind.

I don't think you can translate indoor sport grades to trad. I've seen people crushing 7b on the wall, and wobbling like a jelly and failing on a HVS 5a with bomber gear?

In reply to Goucho:


I need to stop reminding myself of the inherent dangers involved in climbing!!

In reply to markh554:
You need to convince yourself it probably won't happen again. I'm often intrigued by how climbing can be an exercise in concious denial.

In reply to Ciro:


I've got 9 out of ten climbers and have read it cover to cover many times, but just because it's in a book doesn't mean we have to take it as gospel.
Yes falling practice will help, but at what cost.

So....Taking falls onto trad placements is against peoples ethics?

Hilarious.

(I didn't specify how many falls or intent, because one persons practice falling session is another persons trying to push their grades session. The rock doesn't know the difference.)

In reply to Timmd:


I need to grow a pair more like!

In reply to needvert:


There is a very fundamental ethical difference between taking a fall deliberately and taking a fall accidentally. After all, not falling when climbing is kind of the whole point!

In reply to needvert:



I don't think anyone said this. What was said was that it was unethical to promote a behaviour that accelerated and caused unnecessary damage to the rock.

In reply to dashed:
Found: two shrivelled nut like objects at Stanage.

In reply to robertmctague:


Doesn't he recommend it at the wall and on sport routes?

In reply to dashed:
Where do you live by the way?

For me, the best way to get into trad at the start of the season is to do some proper jugfests. They don't really exist on grit (local to me), there are very few on Peak lime (a couple of routes at Beeston and that's your lot) and North Wales and the Lakes don't really have them so I have to drive to Sharpnose or Pembroke. But it's worth it: chugging up steep rock on massive holds with the sea crashing underneath is such amazing fun that it instantly gets me right back in the mood. Those kinds of routes are always really softly graded for me (because I'm not a fat bastard, I suspect) which helps with the confidence too.

Sharpnose is a brilliant confidence-inspiring venue, especially as you get E3s and even E4s for free . If it wasn't a zillion hours drive away, I'd go to Sheigra for amazing jugfests, there's nothing quite like Second Geo for romping up overhanging ground without encountering any holds that are less than completely amazing (and it doesn't even matter if you get lost, the jugs are literally everywhere).

If, on the other hand I want to get kicked in the nuts, I go climbing in the Peak. On a hot day on the grit, I won't get up a route I've cruised in the past, or I'll just look at the deck-out potential and run away screaming. Or on the limestone the polish and choss will just make want to find a new hobby. Of course, I stay the f^ck away from Yorkshire and give the Lakes a swerve when my head's not quite in it.

In reply to Misha:

Yes but also on trad.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Where do YOU live?... Why go to the Peak? I'm more than happy to deliver a takeaway nut-kicking service to you. Just let me know the post code.

... I'll even throw in some hot towels for free. You'll need them.

In reply to Misha:

Page 107-108 has a section 'Practice on trad', that follows the indoor and sport practising falling sections. It's something I need to do myself, I get scared, even though I'm relatively safe.


Re: Robert Durran

While I agree the whole point is to not fall, to me its a bit more grey.

Sometimes one tries climbs that, barring some sort of miracle, you're not going to make it up. You're going to fall off, probably a whole lot of times, and possibly all onto the one placement. The goal of trying these harder than we're capable of climbs, is to become better climbers.

Likewise someone taking practice falls on trad, you're (by definition) going to fall off. The goal of this is to become a better climber, too.

So, we just have two possibilities that may make you a better climber. They both damage the rock to similar amounts. The difference to me is in the former you decide that you're probably going to take a fall when you're standing on the ground, you're just not sure where. With the latter, you'll decide where the fall happens.

I find it hard to have any ethical problems with either option, they amount to much the same to me.


Re: dashed

What was said was that it was unethical to promote a behaviour that accelerated and caused unnecessary damage to the rock.

That's the whole of climbing. I guess we all just draw the line at different places. Aside from practice falls on trad, I'm happy enough using clean aid to ascend free climbs, too.


As a side note, I agree with the above comment that not many people are going doing practice falls on trad. We're not going to have the masses taking big lobs onto marginal nut placements. The vast majority of people aren't going to want to go as far as taking deliberate falls on trad gear, and of those that do - the majority of them are going to pick bomber placements from which it follows that the rock is probably going to be just fine.

In reply to dashed:

I've got to say, I've never bought this "falling practice" tosh.

I mean, it may have it's place in developing some calmness in training, but in the context of having lost your head for trad leading, the problem is never that you're genuinely unsure what it feels like to drop and swing in your harness, or that you have no idea what kind if gear is likely to hold, -you've just got some fear.

Build up confidence with lots if easier climbing, where you'll never fall off; remind yourself how good you are. You'll get it back.

I've done falling practice stuff, encouraged by partners who are too into mcc loud, and it's great fun lobbing off once you've made sure of coming to no harm. Does nothing to help keep it together when actually trying to climb. Is that just me?

In reply to dashed:

Edit: mcc loud is spellcheck for McLeod, apparently. How cool is that?

In reply to needvert:




Err no, not everyone does that. I've never tried a climb where I new I would definitely fail, what's the point in that?
If I wanted to try moves that are too hard for me I'd go bouldering or possibly put a top rope up.

Firstly, years of trad teaches you what is a good placement and what is not without having lobbed off on them. That's the skill and wisdom of knowing of experience.

I just started my first trad since nearly a year ago since my son was born, tonight and have both lost my marbles and my ability to climb it seems.

Starting off on dusty polished severes were not much fun and next time I'm going to just get onto some really safe VSs where the climbing is a lot more positive.

In reply to dashed:

Still trying to get my head back in after breaking myself last year (not even climbing - knocked off the bike!)

Decided I was climbing fairly well indoors over the winter, so jumped on an E2 thinking I'd cruise up it. I was so wrong! Any move I wasn't 100% sure of made me gibber. Ended up the next week freaking out on a VS in the Lakes too.

Been soloing loads of stuff up to HS since, and I'm finally starting to get a little more Trad head. Going to go try some hard, laced stuff next time I'm out. probably going to gibber a bit more, but hopefully I'll get back to where I left off soon

In reply to Ed Navigante:

I think that's a good idea if the head hasn't totally gone (which it doesn't sound like it has). Getting used to making hard moves again on something well protected (onsight) should help the head for when you end up on something bolder / more serious.