UKC

Where I climb most often has a reputation for harsh grades and last night for the 3rd time this week the topic came up. It being chewed over that often isn't unusual, what was unusual for me was that one of the conversations had been elsewhere from a climber who had stopped going because it's hard.

I'm flippin' awful on rock so I feel as though the harsh grades are right, that it's everywhere else needing to toughen it up, but I also accept there may be a place for accepting how it leaves people feeling and that it's meant to be fun.

Last night an F6c had all those I saw try it flummoxed, including some fellas that climb bloody hard - it caused comment in regard to grading, but also a crowd, laughter, teamwork, fun.

I try to imagine what it would be like if my wall changed (yep, I've adopted it, it is my wall, honest!), conversations on here might make more sense, like when I see people talking about starters knocking out '6bs'. I should really want it to change but selfishly I don't. I love that travelling a mile or two I can get an ego boost, then go back where no-one's going to boost any egos. I like it the way it is but on the other hand I can see that for some people it's upsetting and off putting.

So can indoor grades be too harsh? Should they try to conform with outside or with other indoor venues? Maybe they should just have a unique indoor grade system?

In reply to flopsicle:

Like you, I like indoor grades to feel 'hard' for any particular grade. The main reason is the transition from indoor to outdoor then feels less harsh (say after a winter at the wall), and I think it's helpful if grades either try to emulate outdoor grades or feel slightly harder (this is probably helpful to beginners as well, as it reduces the shock when you first climb outside, which requires far more subtle technique).

The two walls I climb at feel slightly different, one being somewhat harder grading, but I think that is as much down to the different wall geometry as much as setting of the problems.

I'd say the 'quality' of the setting is far more important than how hard or soft the grading feels (i.e. interesting problems that get me thinking more and coming back to try them, rather than ladder like problems on ever smaller holds).

At the end of the day its only a bunch of numbers to give an idea of how hard something might be, there are so many subjective elements to grading, it's not worth worrying about to much.

In reply to flopsicle:

Depends what "too harsh" means. Big Rock these days are at the harder end of things, but equally their level of difficulty feels not too far from actual sport climbing (where you of course haven't got an obvious bit of coloured resin to reach for next).

Neil

In reply to flopsicle:

It would certainly be nice if there was a bit more consistency in grading, if only to reduce the number of wasted walk-ins to climbs which are clearly way too hard. Personally, I've onsighted 6b+ at a number of indoor walls, but failed to get up a few outdoor 3+ routes in Portland. Clearly the grading is horribly inconsistent.

I suppose after a few trips you learn what to expect and learn what the grades actually mean in different areas, but yes, it would certainly make trip planning a lot easier if the grades meant the same thing everywhere.

In reply to flopsicle:

There are a few walls that grade very harshly in my view and I agree it isn't that helpful. The one local to me which does this is Redpoint in Birmingham. I know that many people love the wall and I do find the route setting interesting so I am not criticising it in any way other than for my perception of the grading there. However, in my view, they do grade in an alternate universe! I can onsight consistently up to about 6b outside on sports routes and my operating grade is 6a/6a+. That is both in the UK and abroad in a wide range of venues. However, I am unable to lead the vast majority of routes at that grade at Redpoint, yet they will tell you they grade for the real world. I can understand not wanting to undergrade wildly, so that novices in particular don't get a false impression about what they may be able to climb outside. However, I also don't see it as particulalry helpful to go wildly in the other direction either.

I do think indoor climbing, whilst very useful as training, is very different. The route reading skills, type of holds and general environment make it a hugely different experience. Therefore, maybe indoor grades can't really equate to outdoors in a meaningful way. However, I know that I can replicate my indoors grades from my normal wall in an outdoors environment.

I also think that, when people say certain walls grade very softly, there may be two factors at play. First off they may be soft compared to some other walls. However, they may also feel soft once you've got used to the style of the routes and the type of panels/features etc. Like an outdoors crag even... So, maybe, if you do climb at a wall a lot, it *should* feel a little softer than other walls.

On the one hand, whilst there is clearly something in the old adage of there are only two grades of routes - those you can climb and those you can't - and grades are only a guide anyway, it's a bit dispiriting if you can't get close to your normal outdoors grades when you climb inside!. More importantly, in trying to up the ante and meet the challenge, it's quite easy to induce injuries (which I know from personal experience). So I'm personally not a big fan of walls with consistently undergrade, but that's just me.

In reply to flopsicle:

As long as the grading is consistent across all lines at the wall and, if possible across re-sets, then that's fine by me.

Indoors for me is only training so all I need is to get the intensity right. Once you get a feel for the wall, you know what grade relates to what intensity.

If I only climbed indoors, I guess I would be more bothered. (I generally climb harder outdoors as it's often a lot less physical).

In reply to BarrySW19:

Which 3+ route did you try on Portland? If you're onsighting 6b+ indoors 3+ should almost be so easy you'd be comfortable soloing it! Easier grades on Portland can be slabby, and slabs do require better footwork than indoor walls prepare you for.

If your attempted routes were at the Cuttings everything is polished to hell and terrible that I suggest you go try Fallen Slab Arete at Blacknor.

In reply to flopsicle: That sounds like something is really going wrong. I'd agree that some walls are graded hard and some are easy but they should in some way compare to what you climb outside. That's the very basic.

It's also important to distinguish between walls that are 'hard' and those that are badly set. I would reckon to climb most any 6 outdoors but I have a couple on a local wall I simply can't touch as I can't reach the holds. Generally tho' there routes are interesting, require some reading and thought but definitely not a soft touch. Perhaps because nothing is very long there they need to pack a punch
Another local wall is much high , and generally much steeper. As a result the routes are juggy haul fests and I think a lot of people struggle to take their grade outdoors

In reply to flopsicle:

Try climbing Awesome walls at Stockport, most routes are over-graded!

In reply to flopsicle:
Detach the ego.

Edit: I meant people in general should, not specifically you.

All the replies are a reminder of the breadth of issues involved, from injury risks to wasted walk-ins. All valid points and TBF more important than just how much fun something is.

I think I've always felt a bit loathed to just blame setters when I can't get my backside up a route - joking about blaming setters is fair play, obviously. I thin setting is a thankless task and in between joking that the setter forgot to put the holds on I do try to be just as vocal when their handy work has just provided a shed-load of fun. I think that I started where grades are hard has also effected how I feel about it, I'd have been gutted if everything I thought I'd got wasn't but it's quite nice to have the opposite.

I think setters should have a coin box with their name on for tips!

In reply to Fraser:

Phew!! My paranoia thanks you for the edit..

In reply to Skyfall:


I get the feeling that this effect is also behind a lot of moaning about "uninspiring" route-setting. There are some walls that are genuinely poor, but even at ones that are fairly decent it's easy to find someone who went once, climbed badly because the routes didn't play to their strengths, and went off and made huffy noises about how the route-setting was massively substandard in some way that they can't really define.

In reply to flopsicle:

I don't agree that a centre should aspire to 'stern' grading. Basically, indoor grading should ideally be proposed by the route setter then tested by a couple of experienced climbers and agreed. A route setter might be so strong that they can't tell the difference between 6a and 6c. A couple of people testing should sort this out. The route setter of course has to set their ego aside somewhat - but the good ones do that, and are experienced enough to get the grade roughly 'right'.

Different styles will feel different to different people - but a steep 6c should be pretty juggy and feel more or less like a 6c in France or Spain or any other similar style route at a different wall. A vertical or slabby 6c should feel roughly like a 6c at Horseshoe or Chee Dale or Portland or any other wall. Clearly there are variations in regions and in individual routes, but if people can agree that a route feels 6cish in all different places on different rock types, route setters who are experienced climbers should be able to get it approximately right.

Personally I think all indoor routes should be graded for the ideal sequence - this then will correspond with outdoor climbing better as outdoors climbs are harder to read (the right holds generally not being colour coded).

The best centres have a variety of route setters who also try each other's routes, so there will be a variety of styles as well as a rough consensus on grade - which will stop 'stern' grading. Stern grading helps no-one - specifically, sandbagging routes in the low 6s hurts climbers looking to warm up safely on easier routes.

In reply to flopsicle:

I like the way it is done in Alien Rock in Edinburgh. The setter suggests a grade, then the first 10 to complete and write up a suggested grade and it is then averaged out.

In reply to flopsicle:

So long as they're reasonably internally consistent and stable over time I don't really care. They're just numbers to let you pick your challenge, if your usual grade seems a bit soft or stern then move up or down a notch or maybe redpoint. It's not like we go to the wall to do just one route. The idea of stopping using to a particular wall because the grades are systematically off (as opposed to there being few/no routes one can do) is risible.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

TBF - the climber I spoke to that had stopped going did say it was because there weren't any he could do. I think the people that have been negative about it have had their reasons which is why I've felt a bit mean hoping it doesn't change. I suspect those who duck out purely because they don't like grunting and kicking on a F6a are less vocal with their reasoning.

In reply to RockSteady:

A juggy 6c? You mean juggy but with overhanging dynos? Minimalist jugs?

I'm trying to imagine....

In reply to Mr Trebus:


I always found AR to be quite consistently harsh. It seems likely that their grading method will only reinforce that. Of course as others have said, so long as it's internally consistent I don't see that it really matters.

In reply to flopsicle:

Just struck on one of the difficulties of grading - depends on your definition of a jug!

Reminds me of this classic:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4568

In reply to Christheclimber:


I couldn't disagree more! Of the current set the pink 7b, white 7a+ and lime 7a on the concave wall are all nails. On the convex wall the white 7am is hard, no one I know has been able to do the move on the red 7b (that includes an 8c climber and and 2 who have climbed 8b+). The pink 7b+ and the Orange 6c+ are both soft the remaining two 7as are about right but at lower end of range.

The Mammut wall has just been reset, I'm told but of the former set the pink 7a was nails, as was the lime 7a (for me as it is powerful but only one hard move, in fairness) and the lilac 7b+ nails (I'm told)

If I owned a wall I wouldn't even bother with grades. In a way, that's how I think of the works in Sheffield. I just look at the size of the holds on the problem and it's fairly obvious if it's going to be hard or not. Harder to do if you're talking routes, a rough indication of grade is useful in that situation.

I must have climbed well over 50 sessions in the works since I moved to Sheffield and I still have no idea what colour circuits are what grade. All that matters is that you're climbing at the intensity you want to at the time.

In reply to Christheclimber:


Stockport gets a bad rep because the 5-6b routes tend to be jug ladders. The harder routes, on the other hand, have been decent in the last few months. Certainly hard enough that 8c climbers have been spat of 7c multiple times.

OP: IMO indoor grades are remarkably accurate considering how rapidly a judgement is made on them - look how long grades take to settle on routes/problems outdoors. Grades are an indication of what the route will probably feel like, not a dead set standard that has to be precisely adhered too. Personally I find consistency to be much more important - knowing the basic level of intensity means I can easily structure my session based on the feel, rather than grade. Soft one week and harsh the next is confusing, but still easily manageable.

Climbing is about climbing, not counting grades. If you want numbers then go play Sudoko.

In reply to MischaHY:

I think about grades as a way to sense progression, not the only way, but one of the few that's outside myself. As the grading where I climb us going from UK tech to French it's made grades even more noticeable. I now need a French target!

Either way, on the roped routes talk about grades is considerable so at some level they have to matter to lots of people.

In reply to MischaHY:

It was just a comment that has been said by many and true in my grade range. I'm certainly not counting numbers and enjoy the climbing wall for what it is.

In reply to Tyler:

You certainly climb much harder than I do. In my grade range the routes have been consistently over graded though recent grading has become more accurate and well set on the vertical walls.

In reply to MischaHY:

I have to agree with Christheclimber I climb at Stockport and find many routes over graded though I sometimes find Killer sudoku pro difficult.

In reply to flopsicle:



There's one up the comp wall at Ratho on big orange jugs. Imagine 20m of overhanging climbing followed by 5m horizontally across a roof.

In reply to flopsicle:

Grading will always be subjective. I tend to just accept this and carry on with my day

Being slightly less blunt, I like the way that the Works grades stuff. It leaves me caring less about the grade and just getting on stuff and trying it anyway. At any given wall there are plenty of 6b routes that I can figure out, and another load of 6a routes that spit me off straight away. That's just the way it goes.

It's much like that outside too. I'm fairly happy on VS/HVS at Stanage, but at the roaches... Well, at the roaches I'll go bouldering, but if I do try anything above a VDiff I get spat straight off again!

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

When I imagined it my arms hurt and I imagined a visit from the flapper fairy.... But that's a whole other story.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Yeah, it was one of the Cuttings routes - I think those things need either re-grading or chipping

In reply to flopsicle:

I've climbed at NCC for years (no point disguising the location). I've always supported their approach as the grades were usually reasonably consistent and about the same tech wise as crux moves on grit or local limestone routes and they set some great problems. The only reason for walking away is ego. So what if you are forced to climb F5 (UK 5b) when normally you are crushing overgraded V4 indoors.

In reply to Offwidth:

I wasn't trying to hide it, just its a different tone to talk about an issue rather than places or people.

I think its been really interesting to hear the variety of views. I like things the way they are too but there's no ducking it being chewed over and over and over in real life.

I don't think there's ever been a circuit reset without me ending up doing something I'd never even thought of before. I think that's good fun and it works for me.

In reply to flopsicle:
Isn't the nature of bouldering to face a challenge? To get chewed over at first but to eventually solve the physical puzzle seems to me almost the ideal problem and good grades help us find that sweet spot (bouldering grades do not measure flashability they measure the diffculty of the easiest sequence). NCC is doing its job properly in these key respects... the grades are about right and the challenges are well set. Loughborough last night was the same as was the Climbing Unit in Derby and we already mentioned The Works. Its the soft grading walls that are letting their inexperienced customers down.

In reply to flopsicle:

I know people who don't go to certain crags because the grades are hard. Even though they agree that the climbing is brilliant. Pathetic really.

Boggy

In reply to BarrySW19:


Hi Barry,

In which case I suggest the next time you're at the wall really working on precise footwork and then heading over to blacknor and fallen slab on Portland. You won't regret it, but you will still find it tricky given the holds are nothing like what you'd find indoors.

Ignore the cuttings until you can comfortably climb 7a+, below this grade there really isn't much worth doing.

In reply to Offwidth:


I'm not sure how, but I seem to have given the impression I want softer grades? I started at NCC and given my ever increasing enthusiasm/time climbing I can take it for granted that it's obvious I enjoy it.

I can't claim any extensive or broad ranging experience of grade comparison, in fact, almost none first hand! If I had a day of it to get to Derby or Sheffield and a partner I'd be hampering for outdoors not a wall. I pay mthly and, as I find more variety than I can climb before it's reset, there's little incentive to travel to a different wall. The Depot is equally fun but no ropes and no auto belay mean it's a no brainer if I have to choose just one, although I'm loving large the luxury of two ATM!!. At the Depot I get a few reds (when they're up!!), which after carefully unpicking a V grade range to the UK tech used at notts, was better in grade than I've ever managed at notts.

Given I'm not widely travelled and still very much a newb, people tell me about other places. On Monday grade chat was rife, none of it started by me, although maybe instigated in asking advice how to start a F6c. When I first said on here my 2015 goal was a roped 6a (UK tech) at notts the responses gave a very clear impression the grading was somewhat singular - either that or even for a middle aged, inexperienced mare I was pants! I'm not even a teeny bit amazing, less than 3 yrs in though, I'm not pants.

All I'm saying is that there's an issue people talk about, especially in real life and regardless of how much I might like a tougher grading venue it's a business and ultimately they'll have to do as most people want. As much as anything I wish there were more ways to thank route setters, especially for specific routes. There's a route I think was up almost 2 yrs ago 'Cowpats in the corner', a white bouldering route - long gone but it taught me so much, made me new friends I still think of it often.

I don't think it's true that grades don't matter, they're not the point, but that doesn't equal not mattering. It's human nature to classify and group, a bouldering comp with no set order rapidly gets ordered by the entrants and unless the climbs were done with earphones in, it's nigh on impossible to be left simply judging by appearance and the climb itself.

In reply to Bogwalloper:

That sounds epically sad, for them especially.

In reply to flopsicle:

None of my comments related to you other than you said you know people who left NCC for what I would regard as ego led reasons. You seem a delightfully enthusiastic indoor boulderer in real life.

NCC have been run for a long time now and their stiff-but-fair grading doesn't seem to have especially dented their commercial edge.

The easier reds at the depot are often not in the advertised grade range for that circuit colour. Ask the staff, they will admit this. The easy solution is to admit that some reds are sometimes only F5/V0 5a.

Climbers debating grades is a real shocker to me (just joking... its a bit like brits talking about the weather.... but in that, people telling you it is sunny when in fact there is fog outside should not be trusted).

I didnt say I think grades don't matter, even if I do think too many obsess about them inappropriately: I actually think if you are going to have grades they should be as correct as you can make them but bouldering is about exploration much more than the number on the label.

In reply to Offwidth:

No worries, it's the way the replies come out headed. I forget it's the machine doing it not the person.

I hope that notts doesn't suffer for tight grades because I like it the way it is. I like that the setters are such a mixed bunch. I guess if they ever had to choose between how they grade and business I'd rather them just change numbers than lose out. I think the move to French grades will be a good thing and more representative of the consistence of move difficulty within roped routes. I just hope it isn't reflective of feeling financial pressure to conform.

In reply to flopsicle:

Indoor grading could just be bad as well as harsh.

It seems it is easier to be worse on problems than routes, especially if the grades represent a range. Interesting what offwidth says about the reds and the depot, the opposite of the reputation of the reds at NCC.

Were you there for the Jam controversy? A good example of people thinking that if grades get harder as they go up, if someone can't do a climb it's because the grade is wrong. In fact if it's sequence thing, people who finally get the sequence rarely suggest a harder grade.

The Jams caused a lot of grief, pain and tears and because people couldn't do it they thought it was misgraded, but if that were the case all climbs with jams would be higher grades. They're not because it is just a different skill people have to learn. If you don't have that technique in your repertoire it doesn't make the grade higher.

English tech grades tend to focus the mind on moves and technique which the french tend not to.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


I've done the routes on Fallen Slab - they are indeed lovely, I'll probably repeat them this year. Again, nothing like a grade 3 indoors though - an indoor 3 is virtually a ladder, those climbs would probably be at least 5s at most of the indoor walls I've been to.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

That's rubbish, there is loads of good routes at the cuttings below 7a+

In reply to BarrySW19:

I think that's all to do with the holds you're used to. Fallen Slab arete is a long way from grade 5, however I can completely see how you'd struggle (indeed a few of my friends have struggled when i've introduced them to outdoor climbing there). The holds are often (bomber but hidden) left hand sidepulls that let you walk your feet up with the right hand on smaller holds. It's not a hold type that you ever see indoors.

Stick with it, the transition from indoor to outdoor can take a while. But it's very worth it. If you're climbing 6b+ indoors there isn't any reason why you cant climb 6a outdoors. In fact, a vertical 6a might even be easier for you to see how to climb than something like fallen slab.

Good luck

In reply to Graham Booth:
I'm afraid I don't agree Graham. I can think of:
- Flowers on the Razor Wire
- Cat Killer
- Cutting Edge (amazing admittedly)
- Amen Corner

... they pretty much all the decent routes that I can think of sub 7a.

Whereas post 7a there is so much awesome stuff:
- Hall of Mirrors
- Mind Terrorist
- Breathing Method
- Sign of the Vulcan
- Infernal Din
- Hurricane on a Millpond
- Want Out
- Cavity Search
- Fighting Torque

Just to name the (in my opinion) three star routes that come quickly to mind...

There are areas with much better lower grade routes than the Cuttings. Really.

In reply to MischaHY:


TK commented to me that the pink 7c+ was considerably harder than Predator...

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

What about:

Consomme
Another Notch in the Gun
New Saladin
European Flavor
Brief Encounter

Takes list of good climbs sub 7a to 9 same as > 7a!

In reply to RFWilkie:

Guys, the point I was making was that there are better places for easier routes if you're making your first few trips to Portland.

The lower grade stuff is pretty darn polished and gets very busy on a nice weekend. It's not reflective of the quality Portland has to offer. The higher grade stuff on the other hand (with the exception of Hall of Mirrors) isn't that polished and doesn't clog so easily. Personally for a grade 4/5/6 day I'd be elsewhere.

In reply to winhill:

If you mean the jam on the overhang side last year - yep, I remember it, wasn't it graded 5a or b? Overhangs being a weakness and knowing nowt re crack climbing it just left me in hysterics trying to get my saggy backside up! I don't remember the split being quite so clear between them that did it and them that didn't, agreeing or knocking the grade though. In a way I'm always a bit of a spectator with it because if 3 people debate grades you can bet I've climbed for less time and in less places than any of them. What's very clear though is the number attached to 'best climbed' 'most climbed' etc depends which way I point the car more than any other factor.

At thread start I seemed to have spent a bunch of days spectator to what I thought were some valid points, people feeling there's nothing they can climb, starters being put off and it needing to be fun because most of us aren't dreaming of sponsorship. I felt sheepish about just liking it because it's makes me laugh and feel more incentive to just flippin' climb - not such generous reasoning. It has been really interesting to hear what people think, even more interesting (to me) that it's leaked into outdoor too.

My reality is that it's a 1000 times more pleasant to travel and have my grades go up than be left wondering if even the meagre gains at home are remotely valid. I would not like it the other way round, for all the same reasons I don't like to sneak an arête in via the back door punch the air and then hear the arête's not in!

In reply to Ally Smith:

That 7c+ was awesome. Came so bloody close to doing it as well, before I popped my A2 and it got reset. Maybe I should go get on Predator...