UKC

Cheddar Gorge North

So we were at cheddar yesyerday, which seems to be more and more like the local crag even being based in Reading!

I'm a huge advocate of the gorge, with all the sport routes there, ease of access etc However yet again yesterday on leaving insae a pair of climbers on a "winter only" crag! It was very much roadside and the pair were read climbing, on wanting the chap belying, about the restrictions he gave me a grunt and told me to do one. How much longer will this disregard go on for before the gorge is shit to everyone?!?! Martin Crocker is going above and beyond getting out every weekend to check people are BMC members, along with signage now up at most crags....

What more can be done to help educate people or beginners that are getting out onto rock?!?!

Regards

In reply to Danny_boulders:

Educate young climbers about what ?
Sticking it to the man ?¿

In reply to Danny_boulders:

I can't read that - sorry.

Boggy

In reply to Danny_boulders:

Situation vacant: proof reader.

In reply to Bogwalloper:



Yeah , second time round it still makes no sense ?¿

In reply to Colza:



Yeah, who needs to follow their fascist rules, right? I mean, who cares if thousands of climbers lose access to a decent crag as long as you're not letting the man tell you what to do!

In reply to Colza:

So do you climb around Cheddar? Do you understand the access issues or are you just being awkward for shits and giggles. Yeah the OP is not desperately readable, but the sentiment is fairly clear. If climbers act like chumps then we as a group will suffer. If I saw you doing the same, personally I would say something. And if you reacted the way they did, then I would carry on at you until you did something about it, mainly because you'd be being a fricking idiot. The rules are there because the land owner does not want climbers there during peak tourist times. Which if you've climbed there you'd understand as they usually stand right beneath you gawping up at you, waiting to collect rocks with their gobs. Seeing as they're going to carry on as they are, we need to be the ones to censor ourselves. It has nothing to do with "sticking it to the man."

In reply to Danny_boulders:

Those guys at the crag were absolute pillocks - stupid, selfish and short-sighted. They are completely unrepresentative of the vast majority of climbers on here.

What route were they on? Or sector?

In reply to Danny_boulders:


Very sorry to hear about that, and thanks for posting. You asked 2 good questions. The whole climbing community should support the efforts of Martin and others, to avoid losing access to the priceless climbing asset Cheddar.

It bears repeating that Cheddar Caves and Gorge staff quite rightly monitor these forums as part of their efforts to understand the attitudes and behaviour of the climbing community. It is important that we all show how seriously we all take these violations of the access agreement.

In reply to ericinbristol:

Fook me , just let them get on with there policing and go climb somewhere else people !
The land owners clearly own the hole feckin gorge by birth right or some other crap so you'll never win - best just give in now and let the current LANDOWNER get on with selling it to another un- named LANDOWNER , e,c,t off subject but did you know that after getting away with selling mountains in the lakes , they've
(the landowners) got there eye on Snowdon , clogwyn Du'r Arddu first , then who knows !?
Just make sure you keep in line when getting your tickets and no complaining please .

In reply to ericinbristol:


Thanks very much for the reminder, Eric, very useful.

In reply to Colza:

The North side of the Gorge is National Trust so if you or others would prefer to only climb there, please do so. For the sake of the rest of us who want to climb on the South side, please do not be abusive about the landowners on this forum. Furthermore, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread, the landowners have a completely legitimate concern about the safety of members of the public. There is plenty of loose rock around in Cheddar that climbers often knock down.

In reply to Colza:

This is nothing to do with some spurious class struggle. Its about peaceful coexistence between all users of the gorge, which rightfully includes protecting the right of sightseers not to have rocks dropped on them or their car by irresponsible f*ckwits.

In reply to Danny_boulders:

How about taking photos of them and posting on facebook/twitter until someone identifies them. Not so easy to shrug off an entire local climbing community giving you abuse.

In reply to cha1n:

And that won't lead to loads of false flag accusations and that at all will it?

As it sounds, this team the OP has encountered sound like arsey tw*ts, But I have to make the point that not everyone knows about the access agreements and if every crag had a 'buy a badge' system to climb there which everyone stuck too the amount of routes anywhere would be tiny!

Not condoning the team being tw*ts btw, just pointing out there are always a few that don't know the deal and also some selfish idiots too.

How are people meant to stop them though?

I guess it maybe the climbing walls role to educate their new climbers about access issues etc rather than fleecing them for 'coaching'?

In reply to Colza:

So you HAVEN'T climbed in Cheddar then. Hmm. OK. So why are you even commenting seeing as you literally have no fricking clue what you're talking about? Here's a run down.

The Gorge at the bottom is about 20m wide at the bottom at some points. In a couple of places its narrower.
The are 450feet high in places ie they are bigger than most other cliffs in England and a great many in Wales. Some of the cliffs overhang car parks. I.e. you can quite easily dislodge rocks into these car parks.
If you are climbing there, you've got a damn good chance of knocking a rock down into these at times jam packed car parks.

It's entirely reasonable to restrict climbing at certain times during the year. Seeing as the road at the bottom is publicly owned land anyone can go there. The South side of the gorge is owned by the Lord of Bath (just like Longleat). There has been no indication that he will ever sell the land. He is not an unnamed owner and there's not about to be an unnamed owner. If you did about 30 secoinds research you could find that out.

They have for many years permitted climbing on the cliffs with no issue and asked that climbers keep off during busy periods. It took BMC volunteers several years of negotiation to gain permission to extend that period and was granted on the basis that climbers adhered to some rules. Seeing as it's their land, and seeing as actually it has been done amicably and respectfully it really is a question of climbers doing their part. They are not being asked to sell their children into slavery, or to suck the devils toe, or to sleep with their mothers brother. They are being asked to respect some really simple rules put in place to make sure they don't KILL somebody by accident. I would say if you're OK with the idea of dropping rocks on somebodies head from 100m up a cliff because you're a selfish prick then crack on, but that would get the gorge shut down. Instead, as you say, go and climb somewhere else. It's a fantastic place to climb, really one of the best places in the country, so it would be a shame if knobheads who are the vast minority basically screwed the increased access we have.

In reply to Steve nevers:

I meant of the people who tell you to do one.

I've encountered people doing the same thing before and half the time they tell you to do one (they know full well they're breaking the rules) otherwise they just apologise and pack up. The former deserve some sort of come back, I'd be furious if Cheddar South got banned if I was still living in Bristol.

In reply to cha1n:
I agree its not on, people acting like bellends when it seems they know the restrctions, just think social media based naming-and-shaming is a system just waiting to be abused.

Also theres not much the average climber can do apart from have a word/confrontation.

But I think this has shares the same kind of thing as things like boulder venues getting trashed etc.
As theres more people pushing climbing as an 'industry' i'm starting to think that the climbing walls around the country need to step up on giving their punters a basic grasp of ethics and point them towards researching crags a little more. I'm aware I may be being a bit unfair to 'wall-bred' climbers as anyone has the potential to be an idiot, personally just think those making a profit from climbing have a duty to educate as well.

The op is unreadable. Please explain clearly what you saw? Specifically what routes?

Until the routes in question are named, I have as much reason to believe the op doesn't fully understand the access, as I do to believe climbers were breaking any rules.

I had a climber approach me once, accusing me of endangering access. At which point I produced my guidebook showing clearly I was not and they left feeling like a right nobber.

In reply to Steve nevers:


The only access issue relevant to climbing walls is making sure people pay to get in.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Yep. Which sucks big sweaty ones.

Infact, why aren't the BMC pushing for their member walls to include a 5 mins 'don't be a shit' speech in beginner classes and the like?
Would seem to be a very simple addition to their rules, and having thought about it may be more effective than overgrown signs at crags. Or are they to busy spending money on videos of people bouldering in Africa?

In reply to allarms:

Why would a guidebook be relevant? It could be out of date. The current Access position is on RAD (where the rules are very clear).

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/Search.aspx?s=38&t=&r=33

In reply to Steve nevers:

Err, because the BMC don't have any "member walls"?

In reply to Steve nevers:


Beginner classes at walls don't teach people to climb outdoors. It's the SPAs and MIAs teaching people to climb outdoors that need to talk about ethics and access - which they do.

This is an issue between a group of outdoor climbers that want to keep to access rules and one that doesn't. Nothing to do with newbies and climbing walls.

In reply to Oceanrower:


'affilated' walls then.

In reply to Steve nevers:

Nope. None of those either. In fact, the BMC have almost nothing to do with indoor walls. The ABC cover most of that.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:



No, they don't. But I've seen many people progress though climbing indoors and head outdoors, and often have been unprepared for the differences.

I'm just suggesting that if its something that's drummed in early it MIGHT help, that's all. Surely anything that helps people respect the outdoors and each other is worth the hassle?

Simply saying 'oh that's someone elses job' is bollocks basically. Most sport climbers that start indoors and then head out are very unlikely to encounter SPA and MIA instruction, so for a start theres a group that some other methods of awareness could reach.

Your talking about this specific case, I'm talking about widening awareness to avoid cases like these.

In reply to Oceanrower:


Fair enough then, the way BMC bang on about stuff has led me to believe that they had some sway, my mistake, happy to admit that.

But still doesn't discount the fact that people being made aware of issues like these is a good thing.

In reply to Steve nevers:



That we agree on.

In reply to Oceanrower:


Good to hear.

So if its not the BMCs fault who else can I shout at? :P

In reply to Steve nevers:

Maybe the climbers who are ignorant of access issues? What gives you the idea that it should be an instructors or climbing walls duty to inform every punter in the world of their duties? Just because they make a meagre buck out of it doesn't mean they owe the climbing community anything. It may come as a massive shock, but before there were climbing walls there were access issues too, and they were often written about in the guide books. All any climber has to do is look in their guidebook at the relevant crag access info and interpret it correctly. If they're not sure, there's usually a bunch of other people standing around tied into ropes, and chances are they might know something about it. If they genuinely don't then if someone approaches them to effectively help themselves, the least they can do is take a minute to listen to what they're saying. It's THEIR responsibility.

In reply to Colza:



Yes, because whether you like it or not there exist property laws in this country and someone owns this land and has the legal right to specify conditions of access if they wish to. And, further, they have the legal right to revoke climbing access if they wish to. The consequence of ignoring their conditions is simply that climbing access will be lost. So, you can act according to your view that the land should be free and we'll all lose access, or you can accept that the system is what it is and climb within the conditions of access. And, perhaps you should also try to understand why some of these conditions exist - you may find there are actually perfectly good reasons.

Of course, I'm sure you're standing in the upcoming general election on a manifesto to change the system, aren't you?

In reply to BarrySW19:

yes that's right , I'm counting in your vote

In reply to Colza:

It would seem that my post however badly mis-spelt has really opened up discussion to a fair few. I'm back down the gorge today and if any of you chaps happen to ever be climbing in the gorge please don't hesitate to come have a chat. I'm known quite well by Martin and the gorge staff to not to mention Costa!!!!

Normally climb in a bright yellow rope or can be found in a blue people carrier with roof bars.

Hope by creating this forum we can start putting these issues out there more to show our concern as a greater climbing community. I for one would be gutted if the gorge closed down due to the recklessness of a few.

Danny

In reply to ericinbristol:

They happened to be on jack HS 4b roadside on the right hand end of High Tock past shakin like a leaf 7a. Properly roadside, with tourists walking dead underneath them...

Hope this helps apologise for lack of response.

Danny

In reply to beardy mike:

You've just contradicted yourself, If this imaginary climber we are discussing are ignorant of access issues, its pretty unlikely they are going to open the guidebook they don't sodding have, them being ignorant of access issues after all.

Not everyone has a guide, and it may come as a massive shock to you, but before climbing walls there was people that simply didn't give a f*ck, and guess what, using the OPs example as exhibit A, there obviously still is.


So, as a knock on of that, seeing as climbing walls ARE getting some people into climbing, its simple common sodding sense to educate about ethics at a grassroot level. OR we could just not bother and just f*cking bolt everything, f*ck up all the rock going and then just bitch about it afterwards online instead of taking 5 mins to remind newbies not to be dicks.
Yeah ok, its not going to help twats stop being twats if they already have a shit attitude, but hey, it might help some others have some respect.

Amazes me that people seem so resistant to doing the simplest thing to promote good ethics in outdoor sports. Its not just climbing either, seems everyones happy to be seen as the vanguard of the countryside as long as they don't have to do any bloody thing.

In reply to Steve nevers:
Of course that presupposes that if you tell somebody not to be an idiot they're not going to be an idiot. You really think that you can cover british ethics in five minutes when there are hundreds of posts on it here and people still can't seem to decide? Its just not that simple. You're right, the walls could say "don't be a dick" but then people should also be taking responsibilities for their own actions and informing themselves of what they should do to continue to enjoy the privilege of climbing on someone else's land. The concept of trespass has been around for a bloody long time, and I'm pretty certain most people above the age of 12-13 at the very least know a little bit about it. And especially when they are approached by another climber asking them whether they know about access issues the right thing to do would be to listen.

You're right, not everybody has a guidebook. Probably only the majority. And if they don't, chances are they might talk to somebody who does. This is about people educating themselves and self policing, not passing the buck on to somebody else who actually has no requirement to prevent people from breaking rules put in place for their benefit. Besides, do you think a climbing wall in Southampton or London is going to stand there talking about access issues in Cheddar gorge? Maybe UCR or Redpoint, but people do visit from a long way away. And futhermore, do you honestly think that when a wall induction is usually no more than five minutes, either that or people are just signing a disclaimer that people are going to get involved in a detailed access talk? And then of course you get older, experienced climbers like Colza who seem to think the rules don't apply to them because they are from a more rebellious age or something. And I would contend that its actually this sort of climber who constitutes the biggest proportion of the problem. Its not all about newbies - its just daft to think otherwise - they are usually timid and looking for help, not balls to the wall bolshy. You can blame the climbing walls as much as you want, but its actually the individual climbers fault.

In reply to beardy mike:

Here Here!!!! Beardy mike, couldn't agree more!

Having worked and managed a climbing wall for now 4 years, educating people at the wall can be done (within reason) to a simple standard. Such as making them aware of the BMC ensuring that they are properly trained to venture outdoors or further afield, however once let loose human beings make there own choices.

Having been in Cheddar again today, fighting conditions i am pleased to say current signage is up at most of the access routes to the south side crags, with new bolts too. A welcome site from Martin and the gorge staff who maintain that side. So thanks be to them, Burmese wall was an amazing crag and highly recommend it to anyone viewing this article too!

Thanks again, o and one other thing any thoughts on the new guide shortly due out or on creating a forum for current conditions in the gorge?

Thanks again

Danny (Cheddar advocate)

In reply to Danny_boulders:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=86898


hmmm

In reply to Danny_boulders:

This is probably just a lot of mock outrage, plenty of the routes around that area have unrestricted access at the moment.
From the access calendar: "High Rock Lower left wing: Play the White Man to Sherryland (single-pitch routes only) Right wing: The Twilight of Imperialism to Dada (single-pitch routes only)" "are OPEN during: 7 April - 1 May".

The climbers involved probably rightly told you to do one.

In reply to beardy mike:

Wind ya neck in mike ! At no point did I suggest braking any rules , I suggested sticking your rules up your arse and go climb somewhere else ! ?
It's people like you though getting on your high horse make people want too for sure , Climbing is not about rules but the total opposite , p,s I'm off the dolomites this year , remind me not to stay at your place !

In reply to Dean177:



You tell um ! Bloody horse riders ! Bet you he had a chip on his shoulder or a tone to his voice !

In reply to Colza: sorry if I misunderstood your post. They do make you look like you're suggesting people being defiant to spite their own face at other peoples cost. I for one remember what access was like before the current access was fought for and won, and it's a huge improvement. Those saying it's an over reaction have either not experienced it or don't remember. That there are huge numbers of other routes to go at is because of the rules... Hence climbers on a route which is definitely out is just silly. Sorry colza, if you think I need to wind my neck in, so do you. What I'm saying is based on hard experience of the gorge...

In reply to Dean177:

But not that route. Whether there are routes somewhere nearby that might be open isn't really the point...

In reply to AJM:

My point was he probably had no idea which route they were on.

In reply to Dean177:

He's named the route they were on about ten posts back.

In reply to Dean177:

Dean,

Firstly I knew the route they were on secondly, in consulting friends I was with i deemed it my duty of care having seen they climbers on said route to inform them.

Make of that what you will...


Either way they were in the wrong