UKC

I've just started getting into multipitch climbing and am thinking of buying a belay plate with guide mode functionality. In a video I saw recently a bloke was belaying in guide mode but standing well away from the belay (I'm talking 5m or so) just hefting armfuls of slack through while he looked down at his second and shouted help down.

Is this safe in practice? Can you stand a little way from the belay device just pulling slack through it? I can't see why not (it looked dead useful to me) but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way. Hopefully that makes sense, I can find the video anymore, I have searched!

Cheers for any help

In reply to jwhepper:

i dont see a problem. but im sure there are situations someone will think of when being far from your anchor might be bad

possibly cant monitor the gear in your belay/anchor -- ie carabiner gates being pushed open, rope running over webbing, gear slipping, etc.

In reply to jwhepper:

Definition of safe.....

What he is doing is not best practice and the normal method of extending yourself from the belay and belay normally would have been better. My guess is he is a little lazy. The benefits of a guide plate are very good but you must understand a few points before using one.

The belay must be bomb proof, you are risking a direct load to it, if you are a little slow in taking the rope in and the second falls it will create a fair amount of shock on the anchor.

Releasing a fixed load off a guide plate is not easy and can quickly turn into a disaster, therefore I only use my guide mode if I am certain my second will complete the pitch. I know how to lower someone off a guide plate, but it is not something I want to do regularly. The addition of the karabiner holes and advertisements of them being easy to release is not strictly true.

It is a great tool for bringing up two seconds allowing you to bring in the rope at two different speeds, this is when i mostly use it.

Have a bit of practice with it first then go from there.

Centurion05

In reply to jwhepper:
I love my Reverso 3 and use it in guide mode quite a lot. It is important, however, to remember that it also works as a normal device and, depending on the layout of your stance, it might be harder to use in guide mode. For instance, if there is a tonne of rope-drag, guide mode really sucks unless you actually want to exhaust your arms.

Personally, I would never use any belay device outside of arm's reach. I think it would have been wiser to extend the stance in a more normal way and to have the device close at hand. Even in guide mode, I try to make sure that I am also clipped into the focus of the stance - a bum on a ledge is a valuable addition to the protection in the rock.

Since a "guide-mode" device is not really heavier or more costly than a plane old tube, I really can't understand why anyone would not buy one. More capabilities for little cost.

In reply to jwhepper:

the major issue with being far away from the actual device is that you can't pay out in guide mode unless you can reach it as you have to physically manipulate the device to release the rope. If you anchors are 100% and your partner isn't going to get stuck and need lowering then, yes being a distance from the device isn't dangerous per se, just annoying if you need to give them slack for whatever reason.

In reply to jwhepper:

centurian makes some good points and as someone new to multi pitch I would suggest this device and style of belaying is not suited to you.

For me it would be better to build your stance where you can see your second easily, removing the need to stand a few metres away etc. If not possible due to large ledge etc. I would extend myself forwards to the edge and belay traditionally.

In reply to jwhepper:

I don't rerally see any advantages for guide mode when belaying as a pair on standard UK multipitch.

- You need bombproof anchors
- If you're leading through, the belayer will change from guide mode to normal mode so there's extra faff
- Lowering is a faff, if comunication is difficult then you can quickly end up in a stalemate.

As previous posters have said I'd use it when:

- Bringing up two seconds, climbing nat the same time.
- Belaying whilst doing something else (hauling, sorting)

neither of which I'd do regularly.

In the case mentioned in your OP, why didn't the belayer extend the belay to allow him to belay traditionally in view of the second?

In reply to jwhepper:

A link to the video may help...?

In reply to jwhepper:

I think if you are just getting into multipitch, its far safer to stick with what is essentially your single pitch belaying methods until you have a bit more experience of what problem you are actually trying to solve for real.

I have done a lot of multipitch, mainly in the UK and not always on the most trustworthy and/or convenient belay anchors and have never really felt the need to change my 'conventional' system. Others prefer to do so.

In reply to jwhepper:

I've done similar as you've described, I considered it safe. There's one climb in my area that it works quite well at.

Couple of comments:
- I kept a hold of the braking strand
- If I'd have had to lower I would have just walked back to the autoblock
- It was bomber anchors, but no more bomber than the average anchor I build. Direct belaying a second doesn't involve very high forces, especially if you're running the rope over a lip.


I'd suggest you buy an ATC style device with a guide mode, and become familiar with a variety of ways of bringing a second up. Then you have options. Options are good.


On the topic of autoblocks, was reading this recently, the comments were as interesting as the post.
http://kellycordes.com/2011/05/30/multi-pitch-efficiency-the-auto-blocking-...

In reply to jwhepper:

Interesting thread this-keep the responses coming please

Am currently in the market for new belay plate and trying to decide whether a guide plate should be on the list. Currently do lower grade trad with a bit of multi pitch starting to feature (and sport, but have a mammut smart for that).

Up to now I can't really see the need for a guide plate as I'm happy building and using 'traditional' belays. I appreciate options are always nice to have but I'm still not feeling the need for guide plate belaying personally..... Yet!

In reply to galpinos:



The extra faff comment isn't true in my opinion, if you have built the belay correctly and belayed correctly then you will have to change over the orientation of the belay plate anyway. Plus on most multi pitch routes, depending on the terrain, you usually fully tie in the second to the anchor to allow you to have hands off to sort out gear, drink, route read etc. If you use a guide plate then you can let go as soon as they get there, add a knot just behind the plate for extra security is good practice.

I use guide mode a lot, but taking into account of my other comments. I can sort the rope easier, keep it nice and tight on my second, take photos, sort out my shoes, eat, drink........

In reply to centurion05:

Hmm, have I missed a trick here?

Traditional set up - Second arrives, clips into belay (or just tie off belay plate?), faff with gear, unclip from belay and heads off as the leader of the next pitch.

Guide Mode - Second arrives, clips into belay, faff with gear, belayer has to move belay devive from power point of belay to harness so as to belay next pitch, second unclips from belay and heads off as leader of the next pitch.

The guide mode seems more faff to me? If you were leading in blocks, guide mode makes sense but less so if leading through. Am I missing something?

(Happy to be educated, I spend most of my time bouldering and cragging now so am a little rusty.....)

In reply to galpinos:

If you use a HMS for both the hangar and the ropes on the device, it's just a case of clipping the one holding the ropes back to you and unclipping it from the belay powerpoint - assuming you are already part of the belay that is and you've taken care to watch for tangles etc.

In reply to galpinos:



Not strictly necessary because the second is always "safe" while it's auto-blocked. I think the advantage is that you can free your hands while belaying to have a drink, take a photo, put a jacket on etc. I'm not too worried about an extra 5 seconds clipping the belay plate back to my harness from the power point.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Are they "safe" when you're moving the belay plate from belay powerpoint to harness though?

In reply to jwhepper:

This is common. It is always a good idea to be able to watch the second(s) climb, hence you might need to sit some distance from the anchors. With a guide plate you have 3 options.
1. place the plate near the anchors. This has the advantage that if the anchors, you and the second are not in a straight line then when the second falls the rope is better under control than with option 2.
2. keep the plate near you by extending the anchor point. This is better for lowering as you will be able to watch the second as you do it. However if the second falls traversing onto the stance the plate will fly away from you.
3. place the plate on the rope that ties you to the anchors. This gives you the ability to lower with the second in sight, put the ropes holding the plate can not fly out of reach.

(photos of these options are on multipitchclimbing.com in the belay section)

Others have questioned whether guide mode is useful, or suggested it might be slower. I believe it is faster and safer, and works well for multipitch in the UK. 1. it is autolocking so the second is safer and knows she is safer and hence climbs faster. 2. the leader can belay safely whilst reading the guidebook, going for a pee, eating lunch, reracking and putting a jacket on, taking shoes on/off. This saves time even in the UK. 3. If leading through, the second does not tie in when she reaches the anchor, but just hangs off the plate to rerack, grabs the leader's plate and heads up the hill (search from trading plates).

In reply to jwhepper:

Use mine mostly in winter or on long multipitch where it allows you to drink/eat while belaying. It's not a huge faff to change around at a stance, if you're slick then you're slick, moving a carabiner from a the power point to your harness (10 seconds) wont slow you down...that's not faff, faff is talking/eating sandwiches/looking at the view/having to sort your ropes because you turned around/stood in the wrong place/clipped over the ropes etc. If you're swapping a guide plate over then like everything, think ahead from the beginning, where will the second be stood? Where does the next pitch go? Where is the pile of rope? etc. etc.

A couple of points on what the others have said. Firstly I'm quite surprised at the "you need bombproof anchors to use a guide plate". I'd shorten that to "you need bombproof anchors". The forces exerted by the second are minimal, if your belay isn't up to that then your belay is shit and certainly on summer multi-pitch there's no excuse for that.

In your example, it may well have been the right call for the climbers involved on the day but the other alternative (apart from belaying traditionally) is to extend the belay back with a direct isolation loop (overhand on bite on the rope) in it for the guide plate, thereby belaying in guide mode, at the edge with the plate next to your hands. If we're talking seconds having difficulty then there are advantages to using a guide plate like that over a traditional belay. Andy Kirkpatrick discusses the various options really well in the book he has out on multipitch (which is worth a read).

Modern guide plates (compared to flat plates) are quite easy to lower from, either place a carabiner in or use a sling against an anchor. The DMM pivot looks like it will be the easiest to lower on. I've only used the reverso but they all work under the same principle. Time spent deciding where to stand and to place your plate can mean the difference between it being easy to release a second under load and it being hard.

If you're doing a lot of multipitch then get a guide plate, they work well as a normal belay plate and they have extra functions at little extra cost.

In reply to David Coley:

Hmmm, this bit has me confused?

In reply to jwhepper:

Putting this into pictures:

1. how to swap leader when direct belaying: http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm#swapb

2. how to park the second(s): http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm#parkingthesecond

3. how to extended the plate away from the anchors: http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm#powerpointsmadefromtherop...

4. the somewhat difficult to tie DIL belay: http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm#dil

In reply to David Coley:

Cheers David, I was thinking your "Swinging leads on a dirct belay" method, not the trading plates method (I wonder how many people actually do this?)

In reply to David Coley:

David,

How often in the UK have you found the anchors to be high enough to be able to rig a reverso directly off them (with some form of powerpoint setup and no other shenanigans) - I imagine if the anchors are around waist level, it's a bit low for a reverso because you'd have to essentially be on your knees to operate it?

In reply to galpinos:

You take their device and put them on belay, they remove the Reverso (/similar) and take that for the next belay. Voila - always safe, little faff, happy times.

Eliminating faff is all about having a system dialed in. The difference between using guide mode and belaying indirectly are negligible when you consider how slow a lot of people are at everything else you do at the belay.

In reply to galpinos:

My apologies, I replied before reading the entire of the thread. I see this has already been well covered!

In reply to climbwhenready:



Just spent Saturday and Stanage and used a direct belay much of the time as I knew my second was going to struggle on many routes.

I climb a lot at Swanage and direct belay of the now super solid stakes.

I find as long as you set it so there is no stress on your back the height of the anchors doesn't matter. However I often don't use a direct if I think an indirect better or more comfortable.

In reply to Sharp:

This. If you're using a dynamic belay in the hopes your second won't rip your anchor, then 1. You should be experienced enough to know the benefits of a guide plate and 2. You probably won't live long enough for it to matter anyway.

The amount of weight/cost difference of a guide plate is fairly minimal and you have the option to not use the feature, if you do multipitch then why wouldn't you get one?

In reply to galpinos:


Trading plates is very common in the USA. In the UK, very few, but I'm spreading the word.

In the USA part of the reason it is so common is that many belay directly with a grigri, or climb as a pair with one reverso and one grigri because they often climb on one rope and they like the idea of having an autolocking device at each end of the system.

In reply to climbwhenready:


I find it's rare that you're forced to belay off anchors at waist height and even then unless you're 100% confident the belay as a whole is bomber for an outwards pull then you may be better sitting down, searching for higher anchors or lowering yourself down so the anchors are above your waist.

In reply to galpinos:






The amount of time it takes to swap the position of the belay plate from guide position to lead belaying is minimal. There is always something for the leader to be doing at a stance. Take all the gear off your harness and clip it to your anchor so your second can take it straight away, then whilst they are sorting the rack you can move the plate. I predict it takes less than 15 seconds to move the plate.

Trading plates is very guide orientated also, in my opinion not something i would ever do, the likelyhood of forgetting to pick up a plate off your second is too high to outweigh the 'speed' of it.

It all comes down to you as a leader being very slick on multi pitch belays, i've climbed with some switched on guys as a three, swapping ropes at every belay and i wouldn't consider it a faff at all.

In reply to climbwhenready:



My own answer..

A million times, maybe not quite, but nearly.

In reply to jwhepper:

KISS

Keep It Simple Stupid

leave guide modes for when you have more experience, get the basics and build on that.

In reply to jwhepper:

Wow didn't realise this would get such a big response! Thanks for the advice, I think I'll get a DMM pivot as soon as they are available, it seems that guide mode is the way to go as long as you know how to use it. Might rig it up in the garden and jump out of a tree to test it....

In reply to David Coley:

Your point one seems the most important to me, I hate the faff of trying to find a way to belay in a comfortable position where you can also see your second. I've found numerous times that I could not belay without either having my body twisted or having the rope run over my leg (not great when the second takes a rest) and guide mode seems to be the obvious answer to this! I think I really need to play around with a 'mock' belay set up before using guide mode in anger

In reply to centurion05:


Just means you have to belay off an Italian hitch (and get mocked by your second, of course)...

In reply to jwhepper:

Just remember that the replies you get to a thread like this are self selecting - they will be from people who have an interest in guide plates. In reality I very, very rarely see anyone at the crag using a guide plate and in over 20 years of climbing I have never climbed with anyone who has ever used one.

I would concentrate on getting the basics of stance management right by practicing multipitch first - before learning new systems you don't already use for single pitch. After a while you will get to understand whether you, personally, would rather do things differently because you have gained experience to make that judgement.

In reply to jwhepper:

I'm interested in this because I've just bought a Reverso (partly because of Andy Kirkpatrick's enthusiasm for them). I've not yet used it in anger, but trying it out I was surprised how hard it is to pull the rope through. The videos I've seen appear to show the rope running through very easily, but I'm having to pull quite hard. The choice of karabiner appears to be crucial, the fatter the better. Any thoughts on what is the best krab for this purpose?

In reply to jwhepper:

... mumble ... mumble ... moving parts ... mumble mumble...

I really like the look of the DMM Pivot but it has a HINGE and, when you're belaying, your belay device is a single point-of-failure. If you use it in guide-mode, that hinge becomes critical. This is not like a Cam which, although mechanical, is usually not used as a single point - if a Cam were to fail, the next piece of gear would hopefully hold.

I'll buy a DMM Pivot, one day. I really love DMM kit and I like the concept but I will certainly wait until they've been around for a bit.

I wonder whether it can be used to ascend a rope, like a Reverso? I presume so, since the devices are the same, in principal, but I tried using a Reverso to ascend a rope in a rope-access training hall, once, and it didn't really work. Perhaps the Pivot will.

In reply to Howard J:

I use a Petzl William: http://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/Carabiners/WILLIAM

It was the biggest Karabiner I could find and it makes regular belaying really easy but it does not really do so well in guide-mode, despite its size.

I also find that guide-mode belaying is sometimes a real schlep - particularly if there is a lot of rope drag. (I have a Reverso 3 - I don't know how well the newer model works.)

Someone once told me that the ATC Guide was far superior to the Reverso for precisely this reason. That's unsubstantiated advice.

In reply to Xharlie:

I used with an ascender (I think I've used ropeman as I was on a 10.2mm rope, but prusik would have worked too) to build a 2:1 system to ascend the rope with a BD ATC Guide. Pivot's bigger hole is positioned differently, but that should make ascending only easier. I'll give it a go.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


Something which is not an option with two ropes at all! For that very reason I will never trade plates!

Guide plates work better with a d shape karabiner so the straight back bar is in contact with the rope as the locking biner. Obviously other krabs work also but a straight back bar is ideal.

I've not used the dmm pivot either, like the look of it but as someone said, you dont need moving parts to have a good guide plate. I use either a Reverso 1, a Reverso 3 or a ATC guide, whichever is on my harness. My preferred one is the trusty 10 year old Reverso 1. It's seen some action!

In reply to Xharlie:


Yeah a reverso 3 is ideal for long alpine multi pitch with twin ropes or half ropes, either way around 9mm and below works better, guiding on two full weight ropes around the 10mm mark is a tw*t. the ATC guide is better for that as it has a larger area to accept the rope. I've never really raved over the reverso 3 for that reason, the advantage of the hole to release a load is something that I have use twice! If I was asked to recommend a guide plate it would be an old version of the reverso or an ATC Guide.

In reply to centurion05:

There seems to be some confusion.

You can't forget to pick up the belay plate if trading plates. It would be almost impossible. this is part of the reason it is so useful.

1. leader brings up second in guide mode
2. second hangs on reverso and racks for leading next pitch
3. belayer puts new leader on belay. Being the new leader is hanging off one reverso, the belayer is forced to grab the other climber's. He has no other option.
4. new leader sets off. She won't be able to move unless she unclips the reverso from the powerpoint. She will then be holding the reverso, and takes it with her. I can't she her deciding to clip it to the belayer's harness rather than her own.

Does that make sense?

In reply to Howard J:

If you have thin ropes a reverso 3 is great.
If you use fatter ropes other makes are better.

For single ropes many use a grigir in guide mode because it is a lot smoother. However, you really have to know what you are doing and it is not covered in the Petzl instructions. If you don't rig it right you could drop the second if you ever lowered them. For this reason, many belay with a reverso with a redirect off the anchor. This forms the jesus piece on the next pitch. This means belaying trad with a grigri - which is the kind of thing that many in the UK find difficult to trust, but is common in the USA.

In reply to jwhepper:

I use a locker with an oval cross section in guide mode, rather than t-shaped.

In reply to David Coley:

OK, good to know. I have an ATC Guide but have never got round to using it in guide mode!

In reply to climbwhenready:


Hi, you aren't the only one. I'd say to everyone, use it in guide mode for say half the belays for a month. If you like it keep doing it, if not drop it. There is a reason that this is the norm in much of the world. Thinner ropes help.

In reply to David Coley:

I find the regional differences quite interesting (this thread has had three(ish) so far - guide mode, trad with Grigri's and swapping belay devices).

I hope in the future each part of the world becomes increasingly aware of what the rest of the world does, and at some point we come to a more homogeneous set of techniques distilled from the experience of the world rather than our small community within it.

Yourself and some others (rgold comes to mind, being US based iirc) provide an interesting change of perspective

In reply to needvert:




Why on earth wish for a homogeneous set of techniques?

There are many safe options and your preferred method may well be influenceded by the nature of the climbing in your area and the technique that it leads you to become most familiar with.

In reply to centurion05:



Yes it is.

In reply to Doghouse and centurion05:

Re Italians / mounters when you misplace the belay device.

Although a munter is a right pain on double ropes when belaying a leader, bring up a second or seconds using mounters on double ropes is easy - the key is to use a direct belay to bring them up. Using a munter on the harness with double ropes is very hard work. As I'm sure you know.

In reply to timjones:

That word 'more' that you dropped had meaning. Its perhaps a topic better suited for another thread, though.

In reply to David Coley:

Oh dear. Since I last checked this thread, it has degenerated into a debate about "mounters" (eww!) and includes an explicit instruction to drop your belay device if you don't like guide-mode. (Dropping one's device is never advisable.)

Is it Friday, yet?

In reply to Xharlie:

re mounters
my spelling is bag enough, once auto correct gets added in all is lost

In reply to needvert:


OK lets rephrase the question

Why on earth wish for a MORE homogeneous set of techniques?

In reply to Doghouse:


No it isn't. You can't use two ropes with two seconds on the same Italian hitch, you won't be able to take in the ropes individually. You can use two separate Italian hitches but then you will need to belay each second up one at a time as it takes two hands to belay.

Belaying with an Italian hitch, which I have hundreds of times, kinks the rope like mad, i have also belayed with an Italian hitch using double ropes and when you get to the end of the pitch it becomes almost unworkable. This doesn't include the extra tangles you will now have going through your belay plate whilst lead belaying for the next pitch.

In reply to centurion05:



OK, I bow to your superior experience and expertise.. . .. . .

In reply to centurion05:




To be fair this isn't really too much of an issue if it is because someone was without a belay device for one pitch. It is still reasonably common in parts of the Alps.

In reply to jwhepper:

I can't take full credit for this observation however, has anyone noticed that the guide devices dont have maximum load testing markings that a crab might have. When in guide mode the device is taking the full load of the climber. This is quite different than when using a normal plate as the crab is taking that load and the plate is just restricting the movement of the rope.

This especially applies to the pivot as the attachment point isnt integral to the device.

In reply to Leon James:

So does a Grigri, for instance.

In reply to Leon James:

If it´s marked EN15151 or UIAA 129 then it´s 7kN for a manual plate and 8kN for something like a GriGri (which in reality withstands considerably more than this).

In reply to jimtitt:

DMM rate the Pivot guide connection at 16kN incidentally.

In reply to jwhepper:

Well, I'm a US climber but I don't know what "all" US climbers do. I certainly see more and more guide-type devices being used, and we've had a few of the lowering accidents that are associated with that technology. I suspect that the guide plates are the wave of the future, especially as more multipitch climbs get bolted belay anchors which, in addition to being of almost unquestionable strength, will also be positioned at the appropriate height for guide-plate belaying.

In the Gunks it isn't infrequent to have low anchors, in which case a belay off the harness seems better. It is also easier on the arms in many cases, there being a fair amount of friction pulling ropes through guide plates (the round cross-section carabiner David mentioned is essential). Moreover, I at least can do a much better job with two climbers in situations in which one might be moving up and the other down, using a harness belay rather than a guide plate. Now that we have various "assisted braking" devices that sort of or actually do lock when the rope is loaded, one gets some of the advantages of the guide plate belay with the harness belay (but letting completely go of a brake strand, as is common with the guide plates, is still not an option).

(By the way, when I say "harness belay," I mean the device clipped to the rope loop (not the harness belay loop) and the tie-in tensioned so that the load is transmitted directly to the anchor. So this is really belaying off the anchor too, with the addition of the energy-absorbing connection of the belayer's tie-in.)

I've noticed what I think may be a psychological downside to the guide plates: belayers anxious to use them may build high anchors in spite of the fact that better (and sometimes much better) low anchors are available. This is not entirely hypothetical, I've seen a few examples.

No one has mentioned this, and maybe a generation is coming that won't even be aware of it, but I dislike the belay I get with most users of guide plates. The plates act and are treated as ratchets, so the rope is pulled up until it is tight and then, rather than being backed off as is usual with the harness belay, it is just left under tension. The follower continually has the sense of being pulled, which may be a good thing for guided clients, people trying to speed climb, and alpine ascents in general, but on ordinary crag climbing it just interferes with the experience of climbing the route. Moreover, if the rope runs diagonally or out over a roof, being pulled can become a serious pain in the butt and even in some cases a bit dangerous.

Another aspect, which is again psychological rather than intrinsic to any of the plates, is that their semiautomatic nature promotes what we would formerly have called "inattention" but now is celebrated as "multitasking." Whatever you want to call it, the downsides haven't changed.

And finally, there is the warning that the guides plates probably won't lock if the rope runs horizontally out from the belay anchor, i.e. if the pitch ends with a protected traverse to the belay.

For all these reasons, I'd hope that folks just learning the ins and outs of multipitch climbing will not give short shrift to harness belays, so that they'll be able and willing to use them effectively when they are appropriate. That said, on climbs with mostly or entirely bolted anchors, the plate-swapping techniques described by David are surely the fastest and most efficient method for swapping leads.

I've got a shiny new DMM pivot and am interested to see the extent to which it changes the picture I painted above. One question will be whether you can lower with it with less likelihood of a very sudden release. Another is whether it will be easier for a belayer who forgoes fashion and decides to be attentive to easily manage slack and so avoid or at least ameliorate the ratchet effect. And of course there is the question about how much the resistance to pulling ropes through the device will be reduced.

In reply to jwhepper:

Oh and I should have mentioned that the guide plates provide an especially simple and effective way to initiate an ascent of a rappel rope from mid-rappel. See for example http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2009/07/rappel-rope-climbing-trick.html .

In reply to jwhepper:

Oh and I should have mentioned that the guide plates provide an especially simple and effective way to initiate an ascent of a rappel rope from mid-rappel. See for example http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2009/07/rappel-rope-climbing-trick.html .

In reply to Sharp (and others)


But it seems to me that using a guide plate might restrict your choice of anchors and so you might not end up not using the best (or at least quickest/easiest to rig) anchors and you don't have the added protection of the incorporation of the belayer on a good stance, to help with direction and in case shit happens (and it can).

Apart from this, there is the extra faff of equalising the anchors to a central point (though admittedly a central point would allow escaping from the system more easily if things go wrong). My default method is to tie into the best two anchors (more if at all dodgy) directly with the two ropes using clove hitches which is very quick and very easily adjusted once the optimum stance for those anchors is taken up.

I may be an old fart stuck in my ways, but for multipitch climbing, usually leading through, I am not convinced that a direct belay with a guide plate is the way forward except in particular circumstances where there is an obviously bombproof and quick to rig, high belay, or, of course, on routes with double bolt belays (ie not in the UK).

In reply to Robert Durran:

I usually try and build from high anchors if I can as I just find that easy whichever way I belay; but if only climbing in a 2 I sometimes guide belay and I sometimes harness belay just depending on predicted awkwardness/faff (you aren't committed to one way or another).


If you have two solid anchor points in reach you can (moving outwards along the rope from your harness) just clove hitch yourself into one, put an alpine butterfly/fig 8 on the rope then clove hitch into the next part and hang the belay from the butterfly (OK so you are not totally equalised but the belay device is). Or clove hitch on rope onto one bit of gear then clove hitch each rope onto the crab you hang the belay device on (both you and belay device equalized). Or probably many other ways of doing it, some more useful and some less so.

I haven't actually tried these much though; probably depends (as with all belays) on personal preference and availability of gear...

PS I guess this isn't directly aimed at you as I suspect you are experienced enough to work this out!

In reply to Robert Durran:


What works well it that case is simply to grab the two tails coming from the clove hitches and tie them together using an overhand - which forms the loop for the guide plate. Job done.

Or if the pieces are further away, tie an overhand in the rope 2ft out from your harness for the guide plate and then clove hitch the ropes to the anchors as you describe above.

There are tons of photos of possibilities in the belay chapter at www.multipitchclimbing.com

In reply to David Coley:

I agree with David that there is no faff involved in creating a central point, or "power point" as it is called in the US. The long-established rigging method David calls DIL rigging makes this simple, fast, and possible with every imaginable combination of protection points and rope systems, although with a pair of half ropes each cloved to their own anchor the overhand in the ropes leaving the anchor works perfectly unless the anchor is a bit low.

It may also be of some interest to note that the plate-swapping method can be used with an ordinary belay plate and a gi-gi (NOT gri-gri) plate. The advantage of the gi-gi is less resistance to pulling the rope through the device. See for example http://www.highinfatuation.com/blog/kong-gigi/ for some more details and enthusiasm.