UKC

Hi,

Some advice needed if possible.

I do post on these forums as a long time user. However, I have created a new user specifically for this question so not to embarrass anyone.

My son has been climbing for about 4 years and is making, as far as I am concerned, really good progress. He has onsighted up to 7a+ and redpointed 7c outside. I am fighting the ageing process to just stay at that level. He will only get better, if he wants to and wants to continue training and pushing himself. It's not coming from me. I actually gave up for various reasons for a few years until he nagged me into starting again to take him climbing.

However, he struggles when climbing inside and finds he cannot perform the same inside as he does outside. He finds this frustrating, especially when he sees youngsters about the same age getting very strong and very good inside very quickly. Even though those youngsters may not have climbed outside.

Of course I have tried to explain that we are all different, develop at different rates and some climbers do get strong very quickly etc. etc.

But, perhaps because it is coming from his dad (what the f*** does he know stupid old git) he doesn't seem to take it on-board.

I just want him to have fun, regardless of grades etc.

Any other parents been in a similar situation?

Thanks for any advice from anyone - parent or not.

Cheers.

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:

No experience being a parent, but maybe you can say something like "being good at climbing outside is a bit like being really good at chess - it doesn't automatically make you good at playing hungry hungry hippos".

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:

Or, "indoor climbing isn't proper climbing, it is just training for outdoors, like going to the gym."

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:
I can make some comments, but I don't have a definite answer you. First of all, just forget trying to defuse the situation by telling him climbing outdoors is superior- that isn't going to work at all. You might believe that, he most probably doesn't, and even if he does the fact that he's bothered renders it irrelevant.

Some more detail - how old is he - mid, late teens? The age , state of development matters? Is he powerful? The routes he's climbed outside - is he good at steep routes, powerful routes, or more technical routes.

I really wonder if the most useful thing you could do is book him a session or several with a good , respected climbing coach (Neil Gresham, Dave McC ) who we will respect. He will get some useful tips to develop his climbing, and hopefully a perspective on where he stands

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:

I 100% agree that getting him some coaching is a great way forward. Oh, and those kids that climb harder than him? See if you can get him to train with them. No better motivation than envy in my experience. Climbing with people that climb harder than me always seems key when trying to progress to the next level.

In reply to SenzuBean:

I like that, very funny and quite true.

In reply to wbo:

Yes, I have tried telling him outside is superior and you are right it doesn't necessary work. Living close to loads of crags we have always climbed outside a lot more than inside, even in the winter.

He is in mid teens and has very good endurance and stamina, but is also quite good on steeper routes where technique, heel hooking etc., plays an important role. Lots of steep bouldering has helped there.

Coaching is probably a very good idea.

Thanks.

In reply to MischaHY:

The problem I have found is a lot of the other teenagers are in climbing squads, which is not really his cup of tea. We also don't really just go to one climbing wall, but will go to different walls for each indoor session during the week. That's something that I could change to help him.

However, I do agree with you that he should start to climb with kids his own age.

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:


If he is not into the competitive side He could still benefit from the coaching and social side. My daughter who is a lot younger (7) has just completed Nicas level 1 (be patient with me!) She could have done it 18 months ago and the sessions she climbs nowhere near her ability in endurance but the social and getting a certificate are important to her.

I think you need to identify what he wants to get out of his climbing. If he is not into the competitive side He could still benefit from the coaching and social side of being in a squad.If he wants to be as good as the other lads (who you might suddenly find are a year older!) independant coaching maybe the answer but then this would need to be regular to stop slipping back into bad habits. It will be very hard for you to do this as he will be used to venting his frustrations at you (my daughter shouts at me from the wall in a way she doesn't to others) otherwise this might help.. http://betamonkeys.co.uk/confidence/

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:


Well there you are, that's why he is relatively better outside than inside. The indoor kids he's comparing to will have had the opposite ratio. If he climbs a lot inside he'll soon catch up.

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary: I can't offer advice from a parenting perspective but I can say I've been through exactly what he has! I was climbing at a fairly similar level at his age, and climbing outside a lot more than my peers because I had climbing parents and they did not. What made it even more frustrating was that I was getting involved in competitions and getting totally beaten by people I knew I'd burn off on real rock.

A few things that helped me, or I wish I'd done -

I was similar to what your son sounds like - I could hold on for ever and I was good technically. Unfortunately indoor walls don't provide as many opportunities to use technique to trick through cruxes, so I'm afraid the only way forward is to get strong. Get him bouldering more! I used to think I was fairly strong for the grade I climbed because I could boulder well but I was bouldering well due to technique, so some real strength will see some quick easy gains.

I was also really in good at recovering at rests. Routes outside tend to have natural weaknesses which provide good rests but indoor routes are usually set to be unusually sustained. A way to work around this is to do mini shakes (a quick flick of the wrist between moves) and to climb faster. It took me a long time to realise what an amazing effect doubling your pace can have, but it's hard to learn so maybe lapping routes below his limit focussing on moving as quickly and efficiently as possible. Again this style doesn't really suit outdoor climbing, where you normally need more time to think through less obvious moves than on brightly coloured blobs.

Think of every wall session as training, and think of outdoor climbing as performing. This can be hard when you know peers are watching though as it can feel like a performance which is being judged.

I know you say 'squads' aren't his cup of tea, but for me joining the local wall team was the biggest factor. I went from 6b to 7b in a few months (and from climbing higher grades outside to climbing harder inside) just through the motivation and competition. I didn't really want to join for a long time as I found the idea quite intimidating as the rest of the team had been climbing together for ages, but once my dad had encouraged me to go to a few sessions I started to really enjoy it. So I think that's the most important one.

After a few years of climbing with the team I went from coming almost bottom to coming second in one of the BMC national competitions.

Now I'm older I do find it funny that it bothered me, as I'm sure a lot of readers will do too, and I think of it as a fun way to train for real rock. I think indoor climbing is just something that appeals more at that age, and I'm sure he'll grow out of it and find it odd too.

In the meanwhile I hope he keeps crushing on rock as it sounds like he's got a lot of potential.

Oh and one last thing! Its much easier for a weak, but technically excellent climber to improve by getting stronger, than it is for a strong climber to get better by improving technique - technique is the hardest thing to improve so your son is at a natural advantage.

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:

I don't think there is an easy answer to this, partly because it's not clear where he's at, at the moment but also because kids are very different as individuals.

I've see competition kids peak/ burnout by age 10/11, despite the full on coaching and team effort from the parent. Kids have a mojo too.

Growing kids have a whole mix of stuff going on that can affect their mojo, growth without building muscle, weight gain, psychological stuff as well, so I think you'd need to know what was going on fairly explicitly to find the problem.

Your kid seems to be operating at a high level already, so it doesn't seem too much of a concern. If he doesn't like getting burnt off indoors then maybe don't go indoors so much, vary the routine to do training rather than pushing stuff etc.

Coaching and teamwork may work in some or even most cases but I've seen it exacerbate the problem too, it piles the pressure on. I often think that going back to training basics is a good solution, but again kids often see through it, so it works best if it's done as a continuous process, not a remedial solution.

There's a guy called Dr Martin Toms who tweets a lot about youth sport (he's at Loughborough Uni, it's his thing) he recently tweeted:

"Success in youth sport is about how much the kids enjoy it, not how many you win by.
It's about the child not the sport or the coach."

So performance based measures can just be wrong the approach sometimes.

When I'm outdoors with my kids I often let them solo easy stuff, because they love doing it and leave the hard stuff for another day.

In reply to Howardw1968:

Thanks, that's really helpful. He did the Nicas level 1 and quite enjoyed it. Climbing outside has, I suppose, got in the way of thinking any more about taking that further such as going onto level 2. That may get him more interested in joining in with a squad.

In reply to Joughton:

That is exactly what he is going through, especially regarding the endurance and technical aspect, but lacking in that specific indoor strength and power. You've hit the nail on the head.

It's easy for me to try and brush it aside and tell him that inside doesn't matter, that he's very good outside, but it doesn't cut the mustard with him. As you say, he may see it differently when he's a bit older, but he's unhappy about it now and that's what matters.

Thanks for the detailed response, it is really helpful and I am going to try what you have suggested. It is also encouraging to hear that you have been through similar and come out the other side still keen and motivated.

Cheers.

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:

0 - 7c in 4 years is pretty damn good IMO. In fact I'd say you've done your bit, given him 1/2 of his genes and helped him make the most of them. What he needs now is to find someone of his own age and ability to climb with, indoors or out. That way he gets the full impact of climbing - 2 peers sharing adventures together.

Unfortunately you'll be the bus driver until one or other passes their driving test.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Yes, I am sure you are right. He needs to be climbing with his peers at least when he is climbing inside. Hopefully, with the better weather, some of them will start to be keen on climbing outside as well.

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:

Yeah, interesting question and some great responses so far.

If you do something a lot you get better at it. I know outside I can outclimb some of my friends who outclimb me at the wall. (They live near wall and train indoors 4-5x a week: I live miles from the wall so might climb indoors once a week but usually get out on rock at least once every week)

The only way to get good at indoor stuff is to train indoors.

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary

some really good relevant stuff here you could show him Joughton response (or maybe all of em)
so its not 'coming from you' as it were.

In reply to All:

Thanks for all the replies to this, much appreciated. I have used and followed quite a bit of the advice given above and we are making headway. Also arranged for a coaching session with a professional coach. At the wall where we met, I just let them get on with it for the 2 hour session and didn't interfere. The coach analysed his climbing and devised a really relevant longish term climbing / training plan to improve the areas that need some work on them, but still allows for his outside climbing. Will be a lot better than my not so relevant or helpful "just pull harder" or "what did you fall off for?" methodology!

Cheers,

IP.

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:

I've got roughly the same grade profile but never managed more than 7aish indoors.....never really bothered me because I have never seen indoor climbing as an end in itself. With campussing, systems board work and laps on easy stuff you can climb at the highest levels and not bother at all about "ticking" particular indoor grades.

In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:

http://onemovetoomany.com/

Buy him this book about climbing injuries for £30.

I was an enthusiastic teenager keen to improve, and I climbed more than was good for me and bugg*red my elbows.

It probably changed the course of my life, so buy him the book and explain that people can progress at different rates and in different areas at different times, and how probably the most important thing is to stay injury free, or he can't improve.

It'd hard not to be impatient when you're a teen and competitive, but I'd do as much as I can to make him aware that his body is still developing, and that it's a marathon and a not a sprint. Or a route and not a boulder problem.