UKC

AS it says really

never been but think I should.

Wil have wifey in tow a few questions

Is there much stuff up to HVS?
What's the logistics of getting and staying there?
Is there much stuff other than the big stuff (wifey friendly!) up to 10/15 pitches? easy up and down in a day??


Any other info at al appreciated!!

cheers

rob

In reply to bigrob:

I first went when I'd only done one VS, and there was plenty to try (although I didn't understand the grading, so probably got out of my depth a bit and got away with it).


Royal Arches is 15 pitches at 5.7 (maybe feels VS at worst) if you abseil off, 16 if you don't. Make sure you abseil off if you don't like long sketchy descents.

On a smaller scale, Nutcracker is great 5 pitch 5.8 (HVS), must do if you can get on it when it's not too busy. I really enjoyed Braille Book, it's a 6 pitch 5.8, but it's about a 2 hour walk in, and it is a pretty meaty 5.8, steep in places, with some awkward, wide pitches.

EDIT: As a general rule, think of valley 5.8 as HVS, but it does vary.

In reply to bigrob:

There's loads of stuff at those grades up at Tuolumne, but it might be getting a bit cold, and I'm not sure when the campsites and road close for the winter.

In reply to bigrob:

Tuolomne is a great shout, early September before it closes down. Look at stuff like cathedral peak, plus pinnacle behind it, the classic 5.9 on fairview dome is def not one to miss and has 1/2 pitches of 5.9 iirc.

Valley itself has a lot of stuff up to hvs, might be too hot early September though. Central pillar of frenzy, bishops terrace, make sure you do the classic easy scrambly routes like snake dyke and royal arches.

In reply to bigrob: not easy to get there ,mebbe hire a rv for few days that's wot we did anyway .book online as early as u can though.camp sites are cheap,basic and fill up very very very quick. .
awesome place ,if you don't do any climbing go there to see it anyway,a must do.

In reply to alooker:

Hello Adam, how's things? It's Mathew (Yosemite last October), if you don't know my username.


I did it last year and I'd say it's more like E1 (coming from an E1-ish climber), so I suppose it could be a massive sandbag HVS. I spoke to some others who thought HVS, but they were climbing a few grades harder, like yourself.

A word of advice if you do CPoF, it's a right facing corner, we started up the left facing corner next to it, which is about 5.11c. It becomes obvious very quickly (and was obvious from the ground to be honest!).


A great climb and good value at HVS. Also worth doing Church Bowl Lieback and Uncle Fanny, which are just around the corner.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I'd say valley 5.9 is pretty much HVS - the gear is pretty much bomber and anywhere you can place it (most centre around cracks) the climbing is pretty steady.

Best advice for the valley is start easy, like 5.6 easy, and move up a grade every few days until you find a sweet spot. If you jump on a 60m handcrack after only having climbed Bond Street before you're gonna get worked.

There's a great 5.6 called the grack (iirc!) which is a 5.6 finger crack. Good first route for people climbing under hvs

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
And yes hello mate, I'm back in the UK for a month in May, maybe see you then. Let me know where you're gonna be, and if you're ever in France

In reply to alooker:


Maybe you've climbed at Hen Cloud a lot.

How would you rate Nutcracker and Bishops Terrace. VS?


The Grack is a quality route (pitch 2 and 3 anyway), I did it twice a few years ago, so we could swap leads.

In reply to alooker:


I'll be climbing in the Peak (probably Stanage) on 9th/10th and 16th/17th of May with some American friends who are visiting, showing them the delights of the gritstone, camping at North Lees I think. Let me know if you're about.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I'd rate bishops terrace as a hard 5.8, never did nutcracker

Truth is, comparing Brit and yos decimal grades is never going to be perfect, and indeed now I tend to think of cracks in terms of the 5.10 grade...

Also remember that bishops terrace is graded for a two pitch ascent, whilst most people climb it in a single pitch I think - there's a big difference between two 30m VS pitches separately to a single 60-65m pretty sustained hand jam crack !

There's a great 5.9 to the left of serenity/sons of yesterday, do you remember the name Matt?

In reply to alooker:


Superslide? I didn't do it, went to check it out, looked really good from the ground.

In reply to alooker:


That's my experience too. I did a 5.7 the other weekend (not Yosemite but Tahquitz) which probably didn't have a move harder than 4c* but not many easier in the first three 60m pitches.

* And, come to think of it, had a couple of pretty sketchy harder moves on the less sustained pitches too.

In reply to alooker:
Valley 5.9 is more typically like E1 and some R rated slab stuff can be quite a bit harder. You need to be careful with your advice as most reading this site are punters. Also its worth saying Grack crux is a padding slab between the cracks. For Royal Arches the rap descent logistics will, be the crux for most (an 11 pitch rap is not place for rusty practice....some mates got rescued from this and another pair were lucky not to have been)... as a climb its a brilliant HS nearly all the way, from a single move 4c crux to 3b unprotected padding near the top.

Tuolumne camping will be closed in October and getting a space in Camp4 is a bit of a scrum then (all other camping in the valley is booked up well in advance so relies on cancellations).

The OP should do a serch of this site or better still go on Supertopo forums or Mountain Project.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Which one?

In reply to alooker:
I found Bishops Terrace had the odd 4b move up to a 5a jamming crux at the top cracks...ie pretty cruxy and not sustained at all. However doing those moves at the end of the rope needs E1 stamina. The fact lots of US climbers string these pitches with huge racks shows they push themselves less than your average VS leading Brit. My advice to a VS grithead would be to run the route out to a semi-hanging belay below the headwall or 3 pitch it, otherwise think HVS 5a.

In reply to Offwidth:


North East Buttress West. Something of an epic (stupid) ascent given the altitude and that I was expiring from a chest infection. I'm still not right now. The description was a bit vague and some of the stances weren't great (apparently the trick is to do a short first pitch then the 60m pitches get to better stances). Apart from the meat of the first three pitches up the corner, there's a thought-provoking little shiny blank groove on pitch 4, an interesting steep bit near the top and it goes the full height of the peak. Pretty full on for VS!

In reply to Offwidth:
Let's agree to disagree then, I maintain 5.9 feels pretty much like HVS to me - and punters who lead at HVS will have the skills to be safe. The OP is asking for things up to HVS.

if we're talking about the same bishops terrace, it is sustained, it's a big hand crack... There's a crux, but it's hardly out of place.

As for the crux on the grack, and whilst we're spraying beta (possibly unwanted) it's finding the right line. The padding is very straightforward and the '3m' run out is tamed easily with a small cam. No big deal.

(To the OP - don't worry about Brit grades, just go and start at the bottom and work your way up, you'll have more fun, won't be too limited by 'but it's HVS in real money' and you'll understand the system rather than trying to translate something that doesn't really translate) oh, and make sure you take a lot of cams....

There are ways to get around camping restrictions, I spent sept-nov there last year. Keep a low profile, avoid altercations with Pinky and you'll figure it out....

In reply to alooker:
What grade do you lead and where are these UK HVS climbs that are similar as there is no profile info for you. Im grading Yosemite 5.8 crack to average modern HVS crack climbs; not tough venues like Hen Cloud for instance (where HVS would equate to 5.9).

Sure BT is a hand crack below but its lower angle and with other holds available until it suddenly rears up and gets hard. I thought the route was solid Yorkshire grit VS jamming at the top and the Brits behind me disagreed at HVS until I explained that was a joke that meant the same thing.

As for The Grack this was bomber protected 4a slab angle crack climbing to few 4a padding moves with gear below. Certainly the crux for me. 'Easy' clmbing in the US is grade 4... those slab moves were 5.4/5 (Yosemite slab is a UK tech grade harder than crack around 5.8 in my experience).

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Superslide

Lovely route, probably about VS in UK terms. However, I'd suggest avoiding too much comparison with UK grades the climbing is so different that it's hard to match them up. Start easy and work up the grades, if the style suits you'll find yourself climbing harder than the grade comparision charts suggest

In reply to Offwidth:


Porcupine Flat was open until mid-October or so last year. You could just drive in and choose your pitch. Just bear in mind that it will be cold at night up there.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Not done that route but almost every long route I've done there seems to keep coming at you. The climbs are brilliant. There are issues with suspect rock at times but experience is much more impressive than the equivalent length polished Yosemite Valley stuff.

In reply to timjones:
Sure should have said Tuolumne campsite is closed. Ive been snowed out of the Sierra twice in late September and had to replan after forest fires a few times. It's best to keep flexible. Lovers Leap, Needles/Dome Rock, Tahquitz/ Suicide all have world class plan B climbing.

In reply to Offwidth:


Lovers Leap looks stunning but sadly I've only ever driven past it ;(

Last year we drove up the Eastside from LA, climbing in the Alabama Hills, Whitney Portal and Pine Creek before grabbing 3 days at Toulomne and then heading into the Valley. A great trip that I would recommend to anyone

In reply to timjones:
Lovers Leap is pretty unusual with the hard bands providing bizzarre hand rails and foot ledges allowing steep work. Love it and been back 3 times. There are lifetimes of climbing for an HVS leader in the SW US but on holidays I stick to the best bits unless I need a plan B or am on my winter biennial pilgrimage to Red Rocks and Josh (where I even enjoy climbing no star routes at times)

In reply to bigrob:

A write up of our trip to Tuolumne in mid-September a few years ago
http://yorkalpineclub.org.uk/blogs/?p=194

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
I'd missed that before. A good and really useful blog report for the first-time visiting VS leader.

Mt Connes is normal as a VD alpine day, raping the tricky descents. Also brings back my first memories of 5.7 yosemite slab .....can be bloody hard for the uniinitated... often with 5a crux moves. I'd agree with every grade comment (except we typically upgraded those Almscliff diff chimneys to VD).

In reply to bigrob:

The Valley is hard for the grad until you get used to the rock. You will have a far better time up in Toulumne. Supertopo do a fantastic guide. But its high. Camping at the meadow is great but you mat want to book www.reservation.nps.gov

I'd be worried about the temperature that late. the road closes at the first snow, usually early November.

I'd go for:

Statley Pleasure Dome, South Crack 5.8
Lembert Dome, North West Books 5.6
Cathedral Peak, Southeast Buttress (start early) 5.6
Eichorn's Pinnacle 5.9
Matthes Crest 5.7
Pywiack Dome, Dike Route 5.9
Teneya Peak, Northwest Buttress 5.5

In reply to ritchie:

South Crack has an E1 4c R/X slab pitch after a VS 4c crack romp... that slab terrified and compelled me.

In reply to Offwidth:


The 5.7R start to the final pitch is similarly spicy with the added bonus of an ankle breaking ledge if you get it wrong!

And don't ask how I know about the alternative thin 5.9 start

In reply to Offwidth:

I don't want to get into an argument on the Internet. I climb up to e4, I have lots of experience with HVS. I've spent a lot of time climbing all over Britain, Europe and the states. At the end of last year I spent a lot of time in Yosemite and Tuolomne, climbing many things from single pitch to big walls. I'm giving you my opinion.

Once more, you can't compare UK crack climbing with those in yosemite. We have nothing like it. Just start easy and go up. Maybe I find cracks easier to climb than you do, Offwidth, but I found 5.9 to be around HVS. A sustained, good value HVS but with gear anywhere.

In reply to timjones:

Thats the bit I meant! The 5.8 crack was some of the easiest climbing at the grade I've done. The 5.7R was like a honey trap.

In reply to alooker:

There are accessible easier 5.9 crack routes I think are HVS like Regular Route on Fairview or West Crack on Daff Dome. I guess I'm just urging caution on advice to first timers. Expecting Hen Cloud HVS for a mid grade 5.9 would be fine.

In reply to alooker:

I agree with this, and go further to say that valley 5.9 is no where near E1. Yosemite granite does take a bit of getting used to but when you do I found the standard rockfax grade conversion tables fairly accurate.

In reply to alex_arthur:


That does suggest you don't even think the CPoF, for example, isn't even a tough HVS.

Which is obviously your opinion, and fair play, but to compare to some UK routes, personally I think it was harder than any HVS multi-pitch I can remember doing (Pluto on Raven Crag, Climbers Club Direct at the Dewerstone, Spectre at Clogwyn y Grochan all spring to mind), and harder than Capella on Pavey, which gets E1 in the new guide. I would also say, 2 of the pitches I found as hard as Lucky Strike at Pembroke, which gets voted hard E1/easy E2 (and gets E2 in the definitive, but I can't see why it does).

Very subjective I know and I'd be interested to get an example of an HVS multi-pitch you think is harder.

PS: Should I even mention La Cosita Right (El Cap base), which is even harder then any pitch on CPoF!

In reply to Offwidth:


Regular Route on Fairview is an odd one. A great route but I'd say it only deserves HVS for the obscene polish on the first 2 pitches ;(

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

I didn't think cpof was hard HVS, first pitch had a balancy move but well protected and you can take your hands off anywhere!

In reply to alooker:


I thought you didn't want to argue.


My climbing partner was a better climber than me (she did the Staffs Nose in a day), and she found it pretty tough. If you found it so easy, that's impressive, but I think most HVS climbers would have a pretty torrid time. And that's only one pitch.

I was really thinking of examples though. What's a hard HVS multi-pitch in your opinion? I'd be interested to know if you've done any of the routes I mentioned, and what you think.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Yeah you're right, but I can't think of many routes in the UK that compare - it's a polished corner (the hard pitch), which has a balancy move back onto the arete, followed a succession of different cracks, mainly easy finger cracks iirc with a fun offwidth pitch. We don't have things like this in the UK. Maybe something on cloggy/great-bow combo? Soft HVS because there is one harder move on one pitch and the rest are much easier? I can't think of anything in the UK with pitch after pitch of splitter cracks to bolted belays and an ab descent.

The first pitch of Central pillar, if it was a walk off - long tall Sally is harder, inverted V easier.

OP - if you want to know how it is to struggle with every muscle in your body go and try generator crack, easy to top rope and impossible (for mortals !) to finish. My offwidth technique is awful, I didn't understand how to climb it at all...

In reply to alooker:
So these are the top 5.9 valley trad routes with no aid on votes on Mountain Project ... some have been discussed, how many others do you (or anyone else think are HVS?

CPoF
Quicksilver
Nutcracker variation start
Peter Pan
The Grack Marginal
Coonyard Pinnacle
Commitment
Entrance Exam
Higher Cathedral Regular

I'd also be interested in views on 5.9 padding stuff. Most to me feels about easy 5c and E1-E3 depending on gear.

In reply to Offwidth:




Is this the horribly polished finger crack?

If so I'd say at least HVS taking the polish into account, but no fun as the polish itself is the main challenge. I opted to clean some thin and dirty cracks to the right and rejoin the finger crack above the worst of the polish.

In reply to timjones:

Polish described as beautiful.

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/nutcracker-59-start-variation/105862632

The same has happened on Chequers Crack... ego bigger than style.

In reply to timjones:

Wasn't polished when I did it last year - maybe a different route?

In reply to alooker:

seems unfair to compare it with an easy VS and a 8m E1....
If you can climb cracks, its easy
If not its desperate, simple!

I'd say valley 5.9 is middle to top end HVS (Terazza, Suicide Wall, Great Western)

5.8 is easy HVS (Knights Move, Agony Crack, Merlin Direct)

Though some HVS would be 5.10!!! (Chequers Crack, Supra Direct, Nonsuch, Shaftbury Ave)

So basically, I agree with above... don't bother comparing!

In reply to edinburgh_man:


Are we talking about the same route?

The right hand start to Nutcracker, a rightwards rising diagonal finger crack?

It was slicker than snot in October last year

In reply to Offwidth:




I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

The thin cracks just to the right are stunning

I'm not sure how you define ego or style but surely enjoyment is the priority for a good day on the rock?

In reply to ashtond6:


I agree, and it's even worse comparing different US areas against UK grades. My impression is that generally US pitches are graded according the hardest move, with little allowance for how long or sustained the pitch is.

As a result, long sustained cracks and corners (Tahquitz) tend to feel undergraded at 5.7 or 5.8 and feel more like HVS or E1 (or harder if they are bold too - that's also not included in the numerical grade). On the other hand, short routes /boulder problems using the same system seem fairly reasonable or even soft. For example Gunsmoke, J Tree (11+) feels about V4; Hamburger Crack, Mt Woodson is a gift at 10B (V1, or gritstone VS!). I did a problem at Woodson at 11D that might be V3 in the Peak.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Seems to be a lot of agreement on this, by people who go on to start comparing.

I just think it's inevitable, and fun to discuss. I guess other people do too, or they wouldn't be on here.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

It's a fair cop! Perhaps it is easier to reconcile if you think of the US numerical grade as a strictly applied technical grade - but bear in mind the pitch might go on for ever and/or have no gear!

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Or so much protection possibilities that you cannot carry as much as you would like

Easier to think of US grades as a different sport.

Start low and get used to the style. Don't try to compare too accurately, the system was developed by the locals and works for them.

There is little discussion about the quality of the climbing, it is invariably all at least 3*.

In reply to Offwidth:

How is Snake Dike not in that list?

In reply to Toerag:

Maybe as its 5.7??? (VS 5a in UK terms with a delicate padding technical crux right next to a bolt and tons of super-bold VS/HS 4a/3c)

In reply to ashtond6:
So when we take (bad) UK over-grading and soft touches into account and (bad) over-grading and top end routes on HVS (which is arguably the widest Uk grade of all). Then we throw in some local US inconsitencies (especially on cruxy vs long sustained... like Dave Garnett said or safe vs PG or R) and then just look at the styles we choose that suit our argument, can't we just prove almost anything?

You still havent answered my question on your view of 5.9 padding routes. I agree the Yosemite hand cracks are the softest graded compared to those used to granite and grit crack grading in the UK and even broadly would support your alignment (except I think TKN is VS and not even approaching the hardest of that grade and nothing like any valley 5.8 I've done.... and most of those 5.10s would be E1 if looked at across UK averages).

What new visitors need to know are as follows: That US grades are like a boulder crux grades and do not take danger into account or sustained climbing (many sections of boulder problems following each other until your arms want to explode or unexpected risk that make your brain want to resemble jelly). That style alignments don't match UK views (slabs a good bit harder... 5.9 ~easy 5c in Yosemite; cracks usually slightly easier, except offwidths where 5.9 might be impossible). That grades differ even more than than the UK venue to venue (Joshua Tree 5.9 slabs are mental, some bolted volcanics 5.9 slab might be a path). That film ratings matter: 5.9 Yosemite crack means tough HVS/easy E1 to me but 5.9R slab means at least E2 5b/c. That topos matter ...South Crack has a 5.8 (tough VS) crack, but also a bold slab E1 crux on a 5.7 bit easily missed unless you know the rules..... lots of 5.9s next to the crack line on one pitch of the topo means its likley solid E1. That once you understand the grades the climbs are bloody amazing and almost always in good nick and in stunning surroundings.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Gotta be careful here again

Some climbs are graded hardest move, some are not

There is a corner crack at cookie that says 5.9 all the way up the top but is 10c due to sustained. But I've also done 10b that is v1 off the deck then a mod after

Sport routes above 10c seem to transfer directly to French

In reply to ashtond6:
The former if fully sustained counts as a long boulder problem. The US crux is supposed to be for a boulder problem sequence irrespective if that is a single move or 10m. Where this falls down is where you get multiple similar difficulty problems with half-rests in between, the route feels undergraded to those used to the UK system. Then like anywhere some FAs can't grade very well (US guidebooks get changed much less often and have been pretty resistant to removing known sandbags .... esp in JT) and in that some historic 5.9s were the equivalent of Scottish VS (another reason to be careful with comparisons for that grade). Then there is the area to area obvious grading differences. Sites like Mountain Project and Supertopo are helping but from the comments and votes a lot of better dlimbers climbing moderates still are missing obvious grade problems.

I actually prefer the theory of YDS to UK grade systems. Firstly the isolation of a single move grade to advertise a sustained sequence can tempt climbers into trouble. Secondly there are more gradations to noticable differences in YDS as climbing moves to the equivalent of the extreme grade region (UK tech above 6a is pretty much a waste of time). Also risk is explicit in YDS film ratings whereas in the UK we have to work it out... great for the experienced but the less experienced can get into trouble. In practice, YDS is less well graded than modern UK but things are changing with the internet input.

In reply to Offwidth:

I tend to think of it as follows:

5.7 = UK 4c max
5.8 = 5a max
5.9 = 5b max

i.e. focus on the tech grade, which is basically what YDS is.

That means that depending on the gear and intensity 5.8 might be VS-E1 just like 5a can be here at home; 5.9 might be HVS to E3 just like 5b can be here, this seems to cover just about all the places I've been.

In reply to David Coley:

It's a useful guide apart from slabs, especially JT slabs (and the old 5.9 sandbags anywhere), trouble is the slabs are the bits that can catch unsuspecting newby UK visitors out! Especially on routes like South Crack where the sting in the tail is high on the route.

In reply to Offwidth:

Run out bits of South Crack felt like E1 5a to me. So within my scheme (just) as mountain project gives the run out bits 5.7+, which one might round up to 5.8 it new to the area.

Or was I having a good day?

In reply to David Coley:
5.8 friction slab on the same crag is 5b, like The Boltway, with "5.8 slab climbing that is never too difficult".....it is at least safe.

In reply to Offwidth:

Not sure how you arrive at this as a list of "top" routes by votes: they range from extremely popular to rarely done. But, I'll bite:




Yes, HVS. Certainly no pitch is harder. Some might feel harder if you don't climb in the valley much.


No, not HVS. Technical difficulty is consistent with difficulty of moves on well protected HVS routes, but the R in the grade should be taken seriously. Something in the low E would seem appropriate. Middle cathedral face climbing is also a special thing, even for the valley.


Probably a bit of a sandbag at 5.9, but HVS wouldn't be too far out.


Sure, HVS: too hard to be anything else. If you're not used to wide climbing in the valley expect to find this hard. Lots of "valley" climbers would find this hard but grades shouldn't pander to the technically deficient.



These two fall in the same category as Quicksilver. There's an R in the rating which needs to be accounted for. Technical difficulties are consistent with what you might find on a well protected HVS.


Yep. HVS and a fairly straightforward one. One hard move with perfect protection. If you don't want to grade it HVS, then I can only suggest VS.


A traditional challenge for which the HVS grade was made. It's intimidating, but not actually that hard. You can even protect it pretty well with a few big cams.


I assume you mean Higher Cathedral Spire? Sure, I'd give it HVS.


Sure, 5b or 5c. The kind of difficulty you'd find on a lot of HVS routes with runouts that bump the grades into low E. You can also easily make these routes technically harder if you fail to find the path of least resistance.

So in general 5.9 equates to the same level of technical difficulty you'd find on HVS routes in the UK but it's wise to pay attention to the style and any kind of seriousness rating if you're converting to UK adjectival grade.

To the OP. If you climb HVS in the UK you'd find lots to do in Yosemite. As others have said, work your way through the grades and get comfortable with the style. It's generally easier and less scary to make your way to the top of cracks than runout slabs, unless you're unfamiliar with the operation of camming devices. It also helps to not get tired easily.

In reply to shh:

They are all the valley trad routes with more than 3 stars (out of 4) on Mountain Project. You can specify this sort of thing on a tool to select routes that suit you (put in 5.9 and at least 3 stars). Saying the technical difficulty of a 5.9 is usually the same as you would expect on an HVS (as you have) is fair, saying 5.9 is equivalent to HVS is not.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
1poundsocks is totally on the money with this, 5.8 in the valley is like HVS. And the Royal Arches may feel like the biggest VS you have ever climbed (in a good way). Nutcracker definitely similar to HVS UK (and great). Did Braille book too, good fun, a lot of wide cracks, felt like E2ish which I was climbing in the UK at the time - haha! Higher Cathedral Spire (5.9) is also a gem. THE easy route to do (must do) is snake dike/dyke 5.7 (can't remember spelling), which is an awesome long day of easy but at times exposed climbing (pitches are very run out but easy). Enjoy

In reply to Offwidth:

Got it. Of course, there is much less consensus on some of those routes than others, since they vary widely in the number of people that actually do them.