UKC

Tryfan

I climbed one of these yesterday, but still unsure which. According to CC guidebook Pinnacle Rib Route starts to the right (north) of the grassy bay and Overlapping Rib Route starts to the left (south). It also suggests (and this was confirmed to me by another party I met) that:

Pinnacle Rib Route is aka Second Pinnacle Rib

Overlapping Rib Route is aka First Pinnacle Rib

However, UKC has these the other way round, or at least it does according to the Rockfax text on the crag pages, the 'UKC logbook' text is less clear - if anything it seems to support the CC version. Also UKC calls the latter route 'ridge' not 'rib'. Any locals care to clarify this so we can request the mod to correct the crag page if needed?

In reply to Oujmik:
To add to the fun the FPR graffitti scratched on the rock is wrong. I think CC guide is correct in the text but wrong on the p.114 topo.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, they both have FPR scratched in. Good spot about the error in CC... no wonder I was confused. The schematic of the gullies and routes on page 92 and the text descriptions agree with my description above, but the topo on page 114 has them reversed! Blimey.

In reply to Oujmik:

Quite funny since they tried so hard to be clear. Topo errors are a bugger to spot, more so when the designation is confused on the crag to start with and with routes described as one approaches from the right.

In reply to Oujmik:

Sorry about the confusion here. As Offwidth says, the text description in the CC Ogwen guide has the two routes in the correct order: as you approach along Heather Terrace from the right, Pinnacle Rib Route comes first, starting from the right side of the heather bay, and Overlapping Rib Route second, starting from the left side of the bay. The error is in the topo on page 114. The lines of the routes are correctly shown but the names are transposed. Sadly, despite much checking and rechecking, this is the sort of error that sometimes gets through the net when putting a guidebook together. This one was particularly annoying and I still kick myself whenever I think about it.
New visitors to the east face often have difficulty finding where routes start and the little schematic sketch on page 92 was included to help with this. Thankfully these two routes were shown in the correct order on it. Also 'Rib' is correct in both route names, not 'Ridge'.

The confusion with these two routes has a long history, and reverting to the original names in the Ogwen guide was an attempt to sort it out. The story goes that the alternative names – First Pinnacle Rib for Overlapping Rib Route, and Second Pinnacle Rib for Pinnacle Rib Route, became common in the 1930s, although they may have originated earlier than this. One plausible explanation I've heard for this is that if you were approaching on foot from the Pen y Pass Hotel (now the youth hostel) or the Pen y Gwryd Hotel, where most climbers stayed in the early days, you'd be coming in from the left and 1PR would be the first of the two routes to the Pinnacle that you reached, and 2PR the second. However, in later years when approaching from the Ogwen valley i.e. from the right, became the norm, this would be reversed and confusion has reigned ever since. Is that any clearer?
Anyway, apart from all that I hope you enjoy using the guide!

In reply to mike bailey:

I must say that it took us quite a time to find the start of Munich climb in the past too.Perhaps we need to go back and paint MC where it begins...

In reply to mike bailey:

Thanks Mike, that's clear. So the crag pages on UKC seem to have the descriptions copied from Rockfax the wrong way round. And yes, the guide's great thanks - the guide to the gullies and buttresses of Tryfan was very handy as we walked up the Heather Terrace for the first time.

In reply to veteye:
Or you learn to read ... its hardly difficult to work out. Generations of climbers sussed it out before you and the modern guides are as user friendly as can be. This initialling of the start of climbs is a depressing trend, especially when the moron doing it for FPR gets it wrong.

In reply to Offwidth:

Err, a bit harsh there Offwidth? It was only meant as a wind-up. On a light-hearted note, maybe it's not a good idea. We've already had one Munich incident and if the graffiti police get onto it there could be another. But seriously, though finding your way round on the east face is not easy and it takes a few visits to become familiar with the place, graffiti is definitely to be discouraged - in any case it can be wrong as mentioned above!

In reply to Offwidth:

As said by MB it was a mild wind up,but the description was not brilliant in the new book.I have the old books,but I tend to just take one book along,so I could not say if the description has changed.It certainly wasted time and I suspect that it could be written to waste less.

In reply to veteye:
Sorry. You need to be bit more obvious with your wit or join the modern age and use a smiley.

The suggestion to mark routes (because finding them is very difficult) has been made perfectly seriously on UKC n the past. People get lost because they lack experience and/or are lazy. The former should probably be somewhere else (the east face is big and complex and with changable mountain conditions.... and with the slow traffic on classics its easy to get benighted or otherwise in touble... rescues abound) and the latter need to look at the gully systems from the approach and read and follow the excellent guides. The new CC plan view of the gullies is especially useful for the navigationally incompetant.

In reply to Offwidth:

Whilst I don't agree with putting graffiti on crags the FPR has been there since at least the early 1980's.

In reply to wilkesley:

Which one?

In reply to Offwidth:
From memory it's the one on the RHS of South Gulley, which I last climbed about 5 years ago and it still had FPR on it. However, looking at my old Ron James guidebook, the route is called "The Central Buttress by the Pinnacle Ribs". He says that the right hand version has the initials "1PR" scratched on it.

It' so long since I first climbed it in 1982ish, I can't remember if it originally had "1PR" or "FPR" then. When I first did Amphitheatre Buttress on Craig yr Ysfa that had "AB" scratched on the start. Not done it for some years, so don't know if that is still there.

In reply to wilkesley:


They're both on the RHS of South Gully!

In reply to Oujmik:

Sorry I meant to the right of the grassy bay. I don't have the latest Ogwen guide, so can't see exactly what it says. Anyway part of the charm of Tryfan is the fun of working out where you are on Heather Terrace.

My Ron James was published in 1975, so it's been there at least that long.

In reply to wilkesley:

I think maybe since the 1930s. In the CC Centenary anthology there is a hilarious article (I forget the original date but pre-war) about the confusion of routes from Heather Terrace and the incorrect initials are noted. Nothing new about confusion of routes here.

In reply to wilkesley:

No worries. I actually had no problem working out where I was, perhaps because I was armed with the CC guide with it's helpful gully diagram and because I know Tryfan fairly well from other angles. Anyway, we seem to have concensus here that the UK crag pages have the descriptions the wrong way round - unless the Rockfax guide disagrees?

In reply to Oujmik:

I contacted the mod, they said I could submit a revision via UKC but it turns out that the Rockfax description is a non-editable field. I checked the Rockfax database and they appear to have the routes the correct way around (albeit still with Ridge instead of Rib) so it looks like there has been a problem with the linking of the UKC and Rockfax databases. I'll get on to someone in the know.

In reply to Oujmik:

I don't have Rockfax with me but I think I noticed this once before - the Rockfax descriptions on UKC are not the same as the Rockfax paper publication.

In reply to climbwhenready:

Yes, that would stack up with my theory that the descriptions have been swapped upon importing to UKC. They should be correct in the Rockfax books (as they are on their website) but they've been misattributed on UKC. I've dropped Alan James a line as he's posted in another thread about similar issue.

In reply to Oujmik:

Yes, those were switched. Sorted now and adjusted to the Diff grade.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Thanks Alan, first two pitches felt more like VDiff to me in the cold and wind so I was hoping for an upgrade! At least I can now confidently say I've climbed PRR/SPR.