UKC

Hi everyone, this is my first post on the forum and so I do apologise if I have posted in the wrong section. I am really looking for some advice, I'm doing my DofE silver expedition in a few weeks time and I'm unsure how much I really need to pack. On my bronze I had my 70L rucksack totally filled and struggled to fit everything in and so I'm guessing I brought too much? I'm heading up to the southern highlands and so the weather shouldn't be too extreme, what's the essential kit I must take? I've bought a smaller camping mat which is only 1.5 L and so will save me some space and I'm currently looking for a reasonably priced sleeping bag that is compact if you guys have any suggestions? But I'm think less clothing is the way to make the most savings?
Cheers, Robbie

In reply to Robert777:

Hi Robbie
The moderators'll probably move this to the Hillwalking section, but no worries.

3 day expedition? I get all my stuff in a 40 litre pack, but it costs more to get kit that light and compact. I'd take 2 baselayer tops, one to wear on days 1 & 2, one to wear nights 1 & 2 and on day 3. I'd take some baselayer leggings for camp. I wouldn't bother with spare trousers, *but* I wear trousers that dry really quickly if they get wet, and will dry off under my waterproof trousers if necessary. I'd take a mid layer - a lightweight fleece or lightweight synthetic pullover - and a warm belay jacket. Spare undies and socks, and of course hat and gloves, and that'd be it for clothes.

Why on earth the DoE kit list has tea towels on it is beyond me. Forget 'em!

You may be able to borrow a sleeping bag. If you've really got the camping bug it might be worth investing in a down bag, but on DoE you might be safer with a synthetic. The Snugpak range is worth looking at. Store your sleeping bag in a drybag.

Enjoy your expedition

In reply to Robert777:

Don't know anything about you guys and your DofE stuff.

70 litres? That doesn't sound light. But if you're happy walking for however long you have to walk, with that load, that's fine.

Check out http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/sf/Gear/Gear%... for some inspiration on possible weight savings. Though don't neglect that they may have a large body of knowledge supporting their lighter choices.

For three day (2 nights?) I'd wear the same mostly synthetic clothes everyday, sleep in them to dry them out, and make a point to wear wool socks.

If I could advise myself long ago about what sleeping bag to buy for not-too-bad-a-weather, I'd say get a quilt (http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/ style). They might be difficult to find because its more of a US thing, but if you do happen to stumble across one - I'd not dismiss it off the bat.

In reply to Robert777:

My experience of DofE is that, as well as the clothes stuff already mentioned, many participants take too many toiletries (all you need is toothbrush and toothpaste, nothing else) and heavy food and stoves.
When buying food, try to get maximum calories for minimum weight (obviously the right calories, not just sugar!). I usually manage to carry less than a kg of food per person per day.
Trangias are really heavy. This stove is not too heavy and nice and stable. A small gas canister and basic pan combined with this still weighs less than a trangia and meths! http://www.simplyhike.co.uk/products/Vango/FoldingGasStove.aspx?gclid=CL-5i...

First off, thanks a lot for the fast replies! And yes you are all right that on bronze I took too much. For example, 3 fleeces and a large towel, in hindsight, probably weren't needed. I have a few more questions about the advice you've given me though, please excuse me lack of knowledge.
Is the belay jacket a warmer waterproof jacket? So I take this instead of my non insulated waterproof jacket?
What sort of trousers is it that you use that dry really fast?
Finally what food do you recommend? 1kg per day sounds fantastic!

Thanks robbie

This thread was started in the EXPEDITION & ALPINE forum and has now been moved.
Please could you try and post in the correct forum, it makes life easier for both users and moderators.

HILLTALK
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In reply to Robert777:
a belay jacket isnt waterproof.
synthetic nylon trousers dry fast something like this
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/classic-kiwi-trousers-reg-p149735
what time of year?
food wise. aim for a kilo per person per day.
pasta and pesto and chorizo sausage (decant pesto inot a plastic zip lock bag)
oatcakes with jam or cheese
dried fruit
cereal bars
chocolate bars of some sort
trail mix eg nuts, raisins, other dries fruit, mms in bag.
have fun

depending on route you may be able to pick up more food on route which can significantly reduce your weight carried

In reply to Robert777:

Pack your rucksack with what you think you'll need; tip it all out on the floor and take out everything you DON'T need.

In reply to mypyrex:


But by what process do you go from "think I need" to "do/don't need"?

Surely better to determine what you DO need in the first place (in fact what the OP appears to be doing!) to avoid all this tipping out and repacking business.

In reply to Robert777:


The trick with food is to pick stuff that has carbs, protein and fat but very little water, and that cooks quickly so you don't need loads of fuel. The best carbs I've found for that are Smash and cous cous. Good sources of fat and protein are chorizo, pine nuts, other nuts and seeds, and some cheeses. Dried packet soup is good for adding flavour. Squeezy chocolate and nut spread is fantastic - I've done a long walk with that spread on tortillas for lunch. If you're a total geek (like me) you can produce a spreadsheet with the protein, fat and carbohydrate values for all your foods on it and optimize everything to the nth degree. If not, just avoid stuff in heavy packaging, stuff in bigger packets than you need, stuff with a high water content, stuff in tins where you'll pour away the liquid anyway and so on.

Generally there are basically two things that you can do to make your pack lighter - don't take stuff at all if you don't strictly need it, and replace stuff you do need with lighter versions. The first is fairly easy to work out if you just think about things - like, do I actually need a clean fleece every day or can I just smell a bit, do I need a separate plate or can I just eat out of my cooking pot. The second is a bit harder, in that you need to know what lightweight stuff is out there and it's not always cheap even then.

I found a lot of useful stuff by Googling "lightweight backpacking" and looking at the stuff that came up, although you have to bear in mind that a lot the US people you find will have a kit list optimized for Yosemite in summer or somewhere else where it's reliably warm and dry...

In reply to Robert777:

Yep, a belay jacket is usually an insulated, non-waterproof jacket; they generally pack up much smaller than fleeces, are considerably lighter and generally offer a much better warmth to weight / bulk ratio. You'll need your non-insulated waterproof jacket of course - that and the waterproof trousers are non-negotiable.

In reply to Robert777:
As this is for a Silver DOfE expedition I have the following points:

1, do not spend too much. Most equipment can probably be borrowed and while not too light or compact will work and be suitable for you and your group. Sports clothes (non cotton track suits, football shirts etc use many of same fabrics as outdoor gear). Thin, light layers are good and don't underestimate weather - it may be roasting sun or heavy, cold rain or even more likely some of both during the 3 days.
2. Plan your menu in a group. This helps keep weight down and eases cooking as you don't then all cook individual meals ( extra fuel, time and packaging etc)
3. Use the guide given to you by group leaders. Agreed about tea towels etc being superfluous but it will specify minimum items e.g. Warm layer and spare set of clothes in evening, cold hat/ sun hat. Your goal is to pick items that meet this while also being small and light. Don't take extras and other goodies just in case.

In reply to Robert777:
This is really down to your supervisor to deal with, My experience is that candidates start to add things in that aren't required (or well meaning parents do).

You will need spare clothes but they can double as sleeping gear, fleece or fibre pile is great, multi-purpose and fast drying, very warm if worn under waterproofs.

Mountain house food is expensive but very light, choose meals that are high calorie, not all are, you can boost the calorie count by adding baby pasta it cooks in the same time as the meal just add a bit more water. Home made flapjack is a good filler, make a batch up and use good ingredients mine recipe includes.
Butter instead of marge
Honey 50/50 with syrup
Dried fruit.

a 75mmx75mm block is about 400 calories so a good boost when required, don't make it too dry.. Breakfast have instant porridge with dried fruit, if you can get full fat dried milk, (Lido) pre-mix it in so all you have to do is add hot water. A tin of Lido Full fat milk can be shared by the group available off Amazon if you can't find it locally, asian store sometimes have Full fat dried milk.

My Gold groups can get 4 days gear and food down to under 12kg

In reply to Robert777:

Morning Robert.
As to being unsure as to how much to pack, that's a feeling you share with most people, regardless of experience.

There's a lot of good advice upthread. Something that often goes unnoticed though, in the choice of what to take, is how that choice is actually arrived at. If you had the money, you could read all the reviews, and acquire all the latest expensive 'lightest in test' gear. But this doesn't necessarily result in an easier expedition - As an example, top spec lightweight 'waterproofs' sometimes don't work well with a heavy rucksack, and it's not easy to cook sausages in a Jetboil tower stove. Lightweight gear can give the opportunity to have a more enjoyable expedition, but the drive to go light can also mean you end up underequipped.

If you don't know what you need to take, then take time to think about it over the next few weeks. Think about it a lot. Watch out though for the tendency to think you need an upgrade on x,y, and z. Advertising and reviews seem all the more convincing if you haven't thought about it. Think about what you don't need- what will be the consequence if you don't take it (e.g. towel, toothpaste, shampoo, solar charger, massive swiss army knife etc), how could you use another bit of kit, e.g. a cheap 'Buff' copy instead of a towel. Is a squash bottle a lighter and more useable choice than a hydration bladder?

Do that, and it'll give you plenty of ideas how to make the next exped even more adventurous. Take advice, but weigh it against your own thoughts. After all, it's your expedition.

In reply to SteveD:

'Lido'? Do you mean Nido?

In reply to Robert777:

You can definitely cut a lot out. Even without spending extra on new gear, simply removing unnecessary items will save a huge amount of weight.

To give you an idea of what's possible, here's a link to my current Cape Wrath Trail gear list (a trip most walkers will take at least two weeks to complete). Note that this includes several luxury items; I continue to tweak this list and may well remove several items before kickoff. Base weight currently stands at 8.7kg which excludes food, water, and fuel.

For a three-day expedition I would expect to be carrying at least a kilo less than this (probably more). I would start by removing the repair kit, a great deal of the wash kit, and would probably carry a much lighter alcohol stove setup. I may also consider ditching the tent inner if good weather was forecast.

Here's the list:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yc7kbwqjdhghsh0/Gear%20list.xlsx?dl=0

In reply to Robert Durran:



My comment was more tongue in cheek than serious although it is a method I have used partially. I accumulate my gear on the floor and then look at what I've got and re-assess what I need on the basis of "do I REALLY need that?" An example might be if I am doing a hut to hut trek, do I really need to take footwear to use in the hut when huts supply hut shoes?

In reply to llechwedd:


Probably! Don't know where Lido came from!

In reply to Only a hill:






All valid points, unfortunately the DofE organisation is quite prescriptive about what gear is required, also if it is group kit it will not be the lightest on the market as it tends to get some hard use. We have 3 sets of gear for our groups, by the time they get to Gold it is reasonably good quality with Alloy rather than fibre poles etc, but still not ultra light.

Steve

In reply to Robert777:

You can carry high-energy food in a lightweight form if you look for the ingredient maltodextrin. This is the basic food starch, which is used in packet soups and energy drinks for runners and cyclists. You'll find it in Cup a Soup, which we found remarkably good for additional energy during the lunchtime break and special soups and drinks for convalescents such as Complan and Build Up, if these still exist in Boots. However living on this kind of stuff will leave you hungry in the long run. Fresh pasta in a plastic bag and a sachet or two of pesto is convenient and quick for the evening meal.

If you take the advice to let your clothes dry inside your sleeping bag, don't use a down bag as it will just turn into something resembling wet bog paper. Personally I would rather sleep dry and warm then put on the damp clothes just before resuming the walk.

Consider using a Thermarest rather than a foam mat; it weighs about double but takes up less than half the space and gives you a much warmer more comfortable sleep.

In reply to Robert777:

Things to think about :what could you borrow off other team members?

Limit toiletries, as said earlier, to toothbrush & paste (mini travel size available from Boots) (though, to be honest, I often go without those too, simply swooshing water around: its not like I'm drinking coke or spooning sugar into my mouth). Towels are totally unnecessary.

For eating I use a plastic spork. An odd time I might take along a plastic knife (like you might get free at M&S). Those cutlery sets that locketogether are overkill. If I need something to stir tea, I use a twig (not taken off a living tree)!

You will need some kind of midge protection: I'd recommend a head net (though personally I wear a lycra type lightweight balaclava with sunglasses! https://www.underarmour.com/en-us/all/accessories/headwear/hoods. Makes you look like a ninja too and also keeps you warm on cold days / nights)

In reply to Robert777:
Removing food weight is largely down to a) using high calorie things (health doesn't really matter over a 3 day trip) and b) removing water. Taking some olive oil to add to meals is good because it's the highest calorie:weight ratio food out there. Things like couscous, rice, pasta, dehydrated meals save a lot of weight. On the dehydrated front, mountain house meals are probably the nicest and most expensive! (NB: there are also some "heat in the bag" "D-of-E-certified" meals out there that are *not* dehydrated. A lot heavier than removing the water). Things like fruit are bad, unless you make a conscious decision to take them as a "luxury". Smash is good for potato, if you go down these "synthetic" type foods take some seasoning/herbs to liven them up (again, light).

Not taking loads of spare clothes is the other thing. Base layer, fleece, waterproof, insulated jacket with some minimal underwear changes and a spare base layer for night/emergencies will do.

If you can optimise your cooking to where you're only heating water and adding it to things, you hardly need to take any cooking materials. Big group trangies are a heavy way of doing it.

Your tent is probably the heaviest thing you're taking.

Be weary of internet "ultralight" kit lists. They are often a bit ridiculous and shed too much......

EDIT: also, on a practical note, know how much water you need per day. An extra litre is an extra kg...

Thank you very much everyone for your replies, I didn't expect to get even half this amount of help. I've read all your replies and I think clothing wise I've manage to make a list;
2x thermal tops
1xthermal bottoms
2xtshirts
3x socks
2x trousers
1xsoft shell
1xfleece
What do you guys think? Too much? Too little? The list includes the clothing I would be wearing (2x trousers so 1 pair in rucksack and wearing the other pair)

In reply to Robert777:

Looks a good list to me. I'd (just personally) go two pairs of socks - 1 on feet, the other pair airing on the back of the rucksack. And I'd think about 1 pair of trousers. For walking in summer I go for shorts, waterproof trousers, and thermal bottoms for nights.

In reply to Robert777:

I too would go down to two pairs of socks and 1 trousers (those you are wearing, make them quick drying. Even oif they get dirty, you're only out 3 days and it adds to the hardcore adventure look anyway). If it rains, put on your waterproofs. Or you could swop for a pair of shorts (use only in emergency).

I assume you will be camping out for two nights (as opposed to staying in a bothy): bring a warm hat (as well as a sun hat or buff). Sometimes I also carry gloves (a thin pair even in summer) . At night, the temp can really drop and if there's a strong wind, you will feel cold.

In reply to Robert777:

Within the group you will need someone to bring some DEET based insect repellent, and if my memories of the Southern Uplands are anything to go by, a midge hood may make life more bearable at the campsite!

There's a wealth of good (and some really bad!) points on this thread e.g. for god's sake don't take a tarp instead of a tent on a DofE trip. Personally for multiday trip clothing I take a 'walking' set (generally fast drying trekking type trousers and a merino shirt, long sleeve if insects about or cold, short otherwise) and a 'camp/sleep' set I can wear while the others are drying out overnight, if need be. The 'camp' clothes might be a pair of long johns and a merino long sleeve. Mid-layer is usually a powerstretch fleece and if forecast wet/cold a light synthetic insulated top (something like this http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/regatta-andreson-mens-insulated-jacket-p327002 would work well).

If I teleported back to my DofE days I would make sure I didn't wear cotton boxer shorts. Goodness me that was grim. I would also go for a pair of boots that fitted (without rubbing blisters in a ring around both ankles, with 5 matching ones on each toe of both feet) and a rucksack that didn't rub my back raw as I carried a Force 10 Mark IV in glorious, sodden orange canvas across the Brecon Beacons and Camarthen Fan

Good luck - it is great fun!

b

In reply to Robert777:

Gloves on this sort of trip I would say there is only one choice - some meraklon thin liner gloves for 5 quid. Keeps midges out, dry quickly when it rains, stay warm when wet, weigh a few grams, and take up negligible room in the lid of your rucksack. Every fellrunner I have ever met swears by them too.

Food, as mentioned above I'd echo the couscous idea. Ainsley Hariot and his sundried tomato and veg type for me, please; I take a small plastic bottle with a mix of oil/chilli/garlic/soy to lob on for extra taste and calories.

Rice usually takes too long to simmer or is already partially cooked and therefore too heavy. Pasta usually a bit too long as well.

Ramen style noodles are quick but not that nutritious, although you can lob them in to a slightly too diluted cup-a-soup to make a soupy, stewy noodly bowl of goodness.

A small foil packet of olives will last a couple of days and add many calories to lunch and dinner.

There are various makes of instant porridge with honey/fruit etc available that are light and just need hot water. Ditto some hot chocolate drinks for when you get in to camp.

Don't forget the paracetamol and ibuprofen for the back and/or blisters, makes life less sore!

cheers

b

In reply to Robert777:

forget my best breakfast tip. Chocolate ready brek! i make it myself with supermarket own brand instant oats, dired milk powder and hot chocolate (the real lstuff you make with milk). put in bag or box add boling water but not too much and you have a cheap warm gloop.

Alternatively you can get that squeezable condenced milk add to museli style cereal with hot water. Less like baby food but no chocolate.

In reply to Robert777:

Looks good, but as someone else said don't forget that you need to satisfy the D of E rules, so hat and gloves are a must and check as to what spare clothing is required.

I would say that if you were looking to save weight you could drop one of the thermal tops or one of the tshirts, as they both fulfill the "baselayer" role. For example I'd normally not be wearing both a t-shirt and a thermal top unless it was really cold.

In reply to kestrelspl:

I would. Depends on your metabolism. I get hot very quickly but also cool down fast. At night I can end up wearing all my clothes if sitting around.

In reply to Robert777:

For blisters some swear by Compeed but I always carry a roll of Micropore tape, which you need to apply before the blisters appear, i.e. as soon as you feel the hot spot. Don't be afraid to stop the group and apply tape, prevention really is better than cure.

Don't forget a tube of sunscreeen. In the Army, getting sunburned is a big no-no because it shows that you're not taking care of yourself or your companions and are not aware of the environment.

To Neurofen (Ibuprofen) and Paracetamol I always add some Rennies because there's nothing worse than being kept awake by indigestion. A set of foam earplugs might help if somebody is snoring!

I will take all of your advice into consideration, I did not think I would get any where near this amount of response and I can't thank you all enough

Robbie

In reply to Robert777:

Hi Robbie,

Lots of good advice above. Your supervisor should be able to answer your questions but it does depend on their depth of knowledge and experience too. Some extra thoughts:

1) Yes, ditch the T shirts and ideally use long sleeved wicking baselayers with a sternum zip and sleeves that you can roll up. Sweating is likely to be the issue , so it is the wicking and quick drying properties you are after rather than the insulation.
2) I strongly recommend one pair of socks per day. Clean, fresh, dry socks are a pleasure and keeping your feet dry is a major defence against possible blisters. A pair of flip flops for around the camp will help air your feet in the evening.
3) A major area to lose bulk / weight for D of E students is the sleeping bag. You mentioned this. A lightweight two season bag is all you need - for example Vango Ultralight 350. However, temperatures can drop more than expected at night so some extra tips. Use a silk (insect repelling ) liner. Tiny weight and bulk, much warmer and keeps sleeping bag clean. Use a metal water bottle; in the evening fill with warm / hottish water and use as a hot water bottle - perhaps wrapped in a spare top as you don't want to burn yourself. Once in the sleeping bag, if it is cold do some sit ups to warm up. Eat fatty foods, such as cold sausage, which will also get your body producing heat that your sleeping bag can trap.

Have fun

In reply to Robert777:
2x thermal tops
1xthermal bottoms
2xtshirts
3x socks
2x trousers
1xsoft shell
1xfleece

Too much clothing - assuming you will have decent (breathable) waterproofs. I'd take::-

Spare Thermal/top or a spare shirt. Not both.
Couple of spare pairs of socks.

But either pack or wear a fleece jacket.
I assume your going to set off in a pair of trousers. Wouldn't dream of taking a spare pair.

If you get chilly - say on an evening you can always put your spare thermal on, wear your waterproof top, or simply get in your sleeping bag.