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I am thinking of producing a new series of guidebooks aimed specifically at the over 50's. I think this demographic of climbers have been neglected in recent years, forced into using modern guides which contain information completely at odds with their recollections of routes.
In fact these guides will only be available for purchase by people over 50, and age verification will be required in the form of either a bus pass, a copy of Pete Hatton's 'Three Cliffs' guidebook or a photo of you in a sleeping bag on either Windy Ledge or in Humphries Barn.
Haven't decided on the titles yet, but I'm thinking along the lines of 'A Guide full of Bollocks', 'A Few Bollocks More', and 'Crack, Slab & More Smoking Bollocks'. The front covers will feature black & white photos of 50+ 'old farts' gazing enigmatically into the distance wearing Norwegian wool sweaters, Helly Hansen Polar Pants or embarrassing Lycra , battered EB's, smoking 3 fags at the same time, and carrying one wire nut on a Whillans Harness.
It will also only contain routes climbed before 1979 - the halcyon days for the average 50+ year old climber. I will also be introducing a new grading system to correct many of the anomalies which have developed over the last 3 decades. No route will be graded above VS, apart from Swimmers Chimney at Froggatt, which gets E6 6b. These new grades will not be based around fact, sensibility, accuracy or consensus, but purely on hazy anecdotal evidence, and called the BITD (back in the day) system.
Routes which have been made less serious with the introduction of cams, will be automatically downgraded to V Diff, and 'highballs' on which a mat could be used, will receive a mandatory grade of either Hard Severe or Mild VS 4b depending on how many boulders are in the landing area.
Route descriptions will be very concise, due to the fact the rose tinted 'Historical' section will make up over 80% of the guide. In fact the only information they will provide is the grade, start and finishing points, and on routes of more than one pitch, whether there might, or might not be a belay ledge? Routes where the crux is protected by a MOAC Original, will automatically get 3 stars.
It will also feature a section on good/bad hitching spots, the best cafe's for stealing left over food, and how to get drunk in the Vaynol for less than a quid.
As these guides will be sumptuous hardbacks and probably around A3 size - perfect for reading and reminiscing while sitting in front of a roaring fire with a nice mug of Ovaltine.
I'm hoping the first of these guides will be available in all good charity shops by October.
In fact these guides will only be available for purchase by people over 50, and age verification will be required in the form of either a bus pass, a copy of Pete Hatton's 'Three Cliffs' guidebook or a photo of you in a sleeping bag on either Windy Ledge or in Humphries Barn.
Haven't decided on the titles yet, but I'm thinking along the lines of 'A Guide full of Bollocks', 'A Few Bollocks More', and 'Crack, Slab & More Smoking Bollocks'. The front covers will feature black & white photos of 50+ 'old farts' gazing enigmatically into the distance wearing Norwegian wool sweaters, Helly Hansen Polar Pants or embarrassing Lycra , battered EB's, smoking 3 fags at the same time, and carrying one wire nut on a Whillans Harness.
It will also only contain routes climbed before 1979 - the halcyon days for the average 50+ year old climber. I will also be introducing a new grading system to correct many of the anomalies which have developed over the last 3 decades. No route will be graded above VS, apart from Swimmers Chimney at Froggatt, which gets E6 6b. These new grades will not be based around fact, sensibility, accuracy or consensus, but purely on hazy anecdotal evidence, and called the BITD (back in the day) system.
Routes which have been made less serious with the introduction of cams, will be automatically downgraded to V Diff, and 'highballs' on which a mat could be used, will receive a mandatory grade of either Hard Severe or Mild VS 4b depending on how many boulders are in the landing area.
Route descriptions will be very concise, due to the fact the rose tinted 'Historical' section will make up over 80% of the guide. In fact the only information they will provide is the grade, start and finishing points, and on routes of more than one pitch, whether there might, or might not be a belay ledge? Routes where the crux is protected by a MOAC Original, will automatically get 3 stars.
It will also feature a section on good/bad hitching spots, the best cafe's for stealing left over food, and how to get drunk in the Vaynol for less than a quid.
As these guides will be sumptuous hardbacks and probably around A3 size - perfect for reading and reminiscing while sitting in front of a roaring fire with a nice mug of Ovaltine.
I'm hoping the first of these guides will be available in all good charity shops by October.
50
In reply to Goucho:
I'd also suggest that the guidebook have a large text box below each route description, in which the owner can describe how they did that route in the seventies using nothing but a pair of clogs and a hemp rope with a pocket of Revels for protection. Possibly each box could be phallic in design, facilitating the ease of willy-waving both in the pub and at home. The guidebook will not, of course, need any other tick box à la the Rockfax series, as the sort of people who buy this book won't actually be doing any climbing.
I'd also suggest that the guidebook have a large text box below each route description, in which the owner can describe how they did that route in the seventies using nothing but a pair of clogs and a hemp rope with a pocket of Revels for protection. Possibly each box could be phallic in design, facilitating the ease of willy-waving both in the pub and at home. The guidebook will not, of course, need any other tick box à la the Rockfax series, as the sort of people who buy this book won't actually be doing any climbing.
2
In reply to Goucho:
You can be as snide as you want about climbers of my generation and older.
What you can't do is take away or demean their memories.
So if one of my treasured ascents is of a route done in a certain style, with a particular set of equipment, and it offered me an immense degree of satisfaction to have done it that way, then that's my business and I can't see why it should evoke such a mean spirited post on your part.
Unless, of course, I have been forcing it down your throat that my ascent was superior in style to yours.
And unless you have a thing about older climbers in general.
You can be as snide as you want about climbers of my generation and older.
What you can't do is take away or demean their memories.
So if one of my treasured ascents is of a route done in a certain style, with a particular set of equipment, and it offered me an immense degree of satisfaction to have done it that way, then that's my business and I can't see why it should evoke such a mean spirited post on your part.
Unless, of course, I have been forcing it down your throat that my ascent was superior in style to yours.
And unless you have a thing about older climbers in general.
2
5
In reply to Tom Valentine:
I think you have completely missed the point by a country mile - I am an old 50 something fart myself - it's tongue in cheek self parody for gods sake.
I really do fucking despair at times!
I think you have completely missed the point by a country mile - I am an old 50 something fart myself - it's tongue in cheek self parody for gods sake.
I really do fucking despair at times!
Post edited at 18:49
30
In reply to Valkyrie1968:
You've nailed it, and your suggestions will be added straight away.
> I'd also suggest that the guidebook have a large text box below each route description, in which the owner can describe how they did that route in the seventies using nothing but a pair of clogs and a hemp rope with a pocket of Revels for protection. Possibly each box could be phallic in design, facilitating the ease of willy-waving both in the pub and at home. The guidebook will not, of course, need any other tick box à la the Rockfax series, as the sort of people who buy this book won't actually be doing any climbing.
You've nailed it, and your suggestions will be added straight away.
2
In reply to Goucho:
I'm well over 50 but fail on all of these would a photo from Snell's Field, or a set of 1970s SMC guidebooks be alternatives ? How about ownership of a Joe Brown helmet or rucksac (suitable battered of course)
And will the book be for the UK or also include selected Alpine routes ?
> In fact these guides will only be available for purchase by people over 50, and age verification will be required in the form of either a bus pass, a copy of Pete Hatton's 'Three Cliffs' guidebook or a photo of you in a sleeping bag on either Windy Ledge or in Humphries Barn.
I'm well over 50 but fail on all of these would a photo from Snell's Field, or a set of 1970s SMC guidebooks be alternatives ? How about ownership of a Joe Brown helmet or rucksac (suitable battered of course)
And will the book be for the UK or also include selected Alpine routes ?
2
In reply to Goucho:
So, what if a twenty year old had posted the same.
Would it have been read differently?
So, what if a twenty year old had posted the same.
Would it have been read differently?
2
In reply to Doug:
All of those are fine Doug. In fact if you can still produce the Joe Brown Rucksac (if you have the attachable side pockets even better) there's a place on the committee with your name on it
Possibly at a later date, depending on how many of the first lot we can get into the charity shops by Christmas.
> I'm well over 50 but fail on all of these would a photo from Snell's Field, or a set of 1970s SMC guidebooks be alternatives ? How about ownership of a Joe Brown helmet or rucksac (suitable battered of course)
All of those are fine Doug. In fact if you can still produce the Joe Brown Rucksac (if you have the attachable side pockets even better) there's a place on the committee with your name on it
> And will the book be for the UK or also include selected Alpine routes ?
Possibly at a later date, depending on how many of the first lot we can get into the charity shops by Christmas.
1
In reply to Tom Valentine:
It would probably have been even funnier.
Plainly not by you!
> So, what if a twenty year old had posted the same.
It would probably have been even funnier.
> Would it have been read differently?
Plainly not by you!
6
In reply to Goucho:
I'd like to order one, your cheque is in the Post.
Will the A3 size fit in my Whillans Alpinist sac?
I'd like to order one, your cheque is in the Post.
Will the A3 size fit in my Whillans Alpinist sac?
5
In reply to adam11:
Yes it will, and I'm thinking of making the cover in vinyl, just in case someone accidentally drops it from the coffee table into their sac?
> I'd like to order one, your cheque is in the Post.
> Will the A3 size fit in my Whillans Alpinist sac?
Yes it will, and I'm thinking of making the cover in vinyl, just in case someone accidentally drops it from the coffee table into their sac?
2
In reply to Goucho:
No way should you do that.
Cams and all other modern gear just make routes safer than they were years ago so all the climbs I did BITD would have been at least HVS and E’s and your book should mark them as such. What would happen if a whippersnapper read the book and thought we had it easy? The only reason the grades stopped at HVS was that E-grades had not been invented at the time.
Mats don’t count as they were only for sleeping on after a long and arduous walk-in to get to the crag.
Approach times will need revising too. Even when the crags had just been invented the times tested the fittest of the day. Weathering has brought them closer to the roadside making the walk a lot easier. Now the times should reflect maturity, poise and grace that older climbers have. Young-uns who just stomp their way up to a crag may be quick, but to approach with any finesse takes time so your book needs to explain that to young climbers. They may be quick but those twice their age need at least twice the time to walk in because we do it in style. We would have been even quicker BITD if it wasn’t for splitting hangovers from the night before when we were out pulling their soon-to-be mothers.
As far as ballsy routes, just remind the youf that anyone who spent long in a sit harness and still managed to have kids must have had a pair of nuts that they could only dream of racking up.
> Routes which have been made less serious with the introduction of cams, will be automatically downgraded to V Diff, and 'highballs' on which a mat could be used, will receive a mandatory grade of either Hard Severe or Mild VS 4b depending on how many boulders are in the landing area.
No way should you do that.
Cams and all other modern gear just make routes safer than they were years ago so all the climbs I did BITD would have been at least HVS and E’s and your book should mark them as such. What would happen if a whippersnapper read the book and thought we had it easy? The only reason the grades stopped at HVS was that E-grades had not been invented at the time.
Mats don’t count as they were only for sleeping on after a long and arduous walk-in to get to the crag.
Approach times will need revising too. Even when the crags had just been invented the times tested the fittest of the day. Weathering has brought them closer to the roadside making the walk a lot easier. Now the times should reflect maturity, poise and grace that older climbers have. Young-uns who just stomp their way up to a crag may be quick, but to approach with any finesse takes time so your book needs to explain that to young climbers. They may be quick but those twice their age need at least twice the time to walk in because we do it in style. We would have been even quicker BITD if it wasn’t for splitting hangovers from the night before when we were out pulling their soon-to-be mothers.
As far as ballsy routes, just remind the youf that anyone who spent long in a sit harness and still managed to have kids must have had a pair of nuts that they could only dream of racking up.
6
In reply to Goucho:
Jesus Goucho, it's not like you haven't put your age on your profile! But what I want to know is why there are no asterisks in your post...?
> I really do f*cking despair at times!
Jesus Goucho, it's not like you haven't put your age on your profile! But what I want to know is why there are no asterisks in your post...?
3
In reply to adam11:
How did people ever get enough stuff into the Whillans sack - it always looked tiny to me? I had a 90L karrimor jobby (still have, in fact) and that seemed just about spot on for bivvis in the Alps.
How did people ever get enough stuff into the Whillans sack - it always looked tiny to me? I had a 90L karrimor jobby (still have, in fact) and that seemed just about spot on for bivvis in the Alps.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
That's probably why the Joe Brown 'expandable' came out a couple of years later, think that expanded & with added pockets it was about 70 litres. (Groucho - still have mine but its in storage back in Scotland a would take some time to get back)
> How did people ever get enough stuff into the Whillans sack - it always looked tiny to me? I had a 90L karrimor jobby (still have, in fact) and that seemed just about spot on for bivvis in the Alps.
That's probably why the Joe Brown 'expandable' came out a couple of years later, think that expanded & with added pockets it was about 70 litres. (Groucho - still have mine but its in storage back in Scotland a would take some time to get back)
In reply to Billy the fish:
Never thought of that, very good point, and I shall make the changes straight away.
Do we want to own up to the fact we used mats for sleeping?
Possibly a section on hangovers and post coital exhaustion needs adding - no hangover or jelly legs, the route drops 2 grades.
I was contemplating putting something like that in the 'they'd fill a dump truck' section?
> No way should you do that.
> Cams and all other modern gear just make routes safer than they were years ago so all the climbs I did BITD would have been at least HVS and E’s and your book should mark them as such. What would happen if a whippersnapper read the book and thought we had it easy? The only reason the grades stopped at HVS was that E-grades had not been invented at the time.
Never thought of that, very good point, and I shall make the changes straight away.
> Mats don’t count as they were only for sleeping on after a long and arduous walk-in to get to the crag.
Do we want to own up to the fact we used mats for sleeping?
> Approach times will need revising too. Even when the crags had just been invented the times tested the fittest of the day. Weathering has brought them closer to the roadside making the walk a lot easier. Now the times should reflect maturity, poise and grace that older climbers have. Young-uns who just stomp their way up to a crag may be quick, but to approach with any finesse takes time so your book needs to explain that to young climbers. They may be quick but those twice their age need at least twice the time to walk in because we do it in style. We would have been even quicker BITD if it wasn’t for splitting hangovers from the night before when we were out pulling their soon-to-be mothers.
Possibly a section on hangovers and post coital exhaustion needs adding - no hangover or jelly legs, the route drops 2 grades.
> As far as ballsy routes, just remind the youf that anyone who spent long in a sit harness and still managed to have kids must have had a pair of nuts that they could only dream of racking up.
I was contemplating putting something like that in the 'they'd fill a dump truck' section?
In reply to adam11:
I'm with Adam on this but dont have one of these new fangled cheque book things and as you have'nt mentioned the price I'm assuming that £1.7/6d should be ample so I will send you a postal order as soon as your advert appears in Climber & Rambler magazine.
> I'd like to order one, your cheque is in the Post.
> Will the A3 size fit in my Whillans Alpinist sac?
I'm with Adam on this but dont have one of these new fangled cheque book things and as you have'nt mentioned the price I'm assuming that £1.7/6d should be ample so I will send you a postal order as soon as your advert appears in Climber & Rambler magazine.
8
In reply to Doug:
I will take you at your word Doug, providing you send me a photo of you sleeping in it (can be on a climb or in a shop doorway) within 3 months.
> That's probably why the Joe Brown 'expandable' came out a couple of years later, think that expanded & with added pockets it was about 70 litres. (Groucho - still have mine but its in storage back in Scotland a would take some time to get back)
I will take you at your word Doug, providing you send me a photo of you sleeping in it (can be on a climb or in a shop doorway) within 3 months.
1
In reply to jon:
Don't ask someone like me questions like that jon. I'm getting my own nurse next week.
> Jesus Goucho, it's not like you haven't put your age on your profile! But what I want to know is why there are no asterisks in your post...?
Don't ask someone like me questions like that jon. I'm getting my own nurse next week.
In reply to deepstar:
I'm going to be using a different kind of currency for its purchase.
In order to receive your copy, you have to start a thread on here which is obviously not to be taken seriously, and when someone fails to notice that (this is UKC, so it's not if, but when), and gets angry on their keyboard within the first 3 replies, you get your new guide.
> I'm with Adam on this but dont have one of these new fangled cheque book things and as you have'nt mentioned the price I'm assuming that £1.7/6d should be ample so I will send you a postal order as soon as your advert appears in Climber & Rambler magazine.
I'm going to be using a different kind of currency for its purchase.
In order to receive your copy, you have to start a thread on here which is obviously not to be taken seriously, and when someone fails to notice that (this is UKC, so it's not if, but when), and gets angry on their keyboard within the first 3 replies, you get your new guide.
Post edited at 19:52
8
In reply to Goucho:
I'm sorry, G.
I've noticed lots of things recently which weren't the case ten years ago: struggling to find keys, remember names, trying to remember why I've walked into a particular room, being unpleasantly curt when my wife asks me a simple question, wondering why a particular thing which annoys me passes for humour by someone else's standards. Probably all a bit Victor Meldrew-ish , I know.
Strangely enough, I'm still the most tolerant driver I have ever come across ( and yet, I've been told, the worst passenger. )
I'm sorry, G.
I've noticed lots of things recently which weren't the case ten years ago: struggling to find keys, remember names, trying to remember why I've walked into a particular room, being unpleasantly curt when my wife asks me a simple question, wondering why a particular thing which annoys me passes for humour by someone else's standards. Probably all a bit Victor Meldrew-ish , I know.
Strangely enough, I'm still the most tolerant driver I have ever come across ( and yet, I've been told, the worst passenger. )
4
3
In reply to Goucho:
Count me in for any copy's please
I can confirm I have photos of sleeping on the ledge and humphs barn (plus many another iffy places) But please only use black and white text as colour recognition is not great.
Thanks
I should point out that I have responded using my sons profile
Ops another mistake by an over fifty !
Count me in for any copy's please
I can confirm I have photos of sleeping on the ledge and humphs barn (plus many another iffy places) But please only use black and white text as colour recognition is not great.
Thanks
I should point out that I have responded using my sons profile
Ops another mistake by an over fifty !
Post edited at 20:55
In reply to Goucho:
What about this new fangled XS grade that's supposedly harder than VS? The only way I can see that being possible is if there is a mandatory whipper. In a Whillans Harness.
What about this new fangled XS grade that's supposedly harder than VS? The only way I can see that being possible is if there is a mandatory whipper. In a Whillans Harness.
In reply to Goucho:
Got a pair of unused Hawkins GTX in the garage if you really want to find that old thrill.....
Got a pair of unused Hawkins GTX in the garage if you really want to find that old thrill.....
In reply to rhyswatt:
The text will be in a 20pt bold typeface.
> Count me in for any copy's please
> I can confirm I have photos of sleeping on the ledge and humphs barn (plus many another iffy places) But please only use black and white text as colour recognition is not great.
The text will be in a 20pt bold typeface.
3
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
I'm not too sure about the voracity of this supposed new grade either. We need to be vigilant regarding this sort of thing.
> What about this new fangled XS grade that's supposedly harder than VS? The only way I can see that being possible is if there is a mandatory whipper. In a Whillans Harness.
I'm not too sure about the voracity of this supposed new grade either. We need to be vigilant regarding this sort of thing.
In reply to Tom Valentine:
You need to get them beaten up a bit, and make sure the soles are coming away at the front first.
> Got a pair of unused Hawkins GTX in the garage if you really want to find that old thrill.....
You need to get them beaten up a bit, and make sure the soles are coming away at the front first.
In reply to Goucho:
I trust those of us who started FBITD (further back in the day) by tying on to a hawser-laid rope with a bowline, wore two pairs of woolen socks (one red pair obl) and who learned to smear in bendy boots will qualify for a substantial discount?
>
> ... battered EB's, smoking 3 fags at the same time, and carrying one wire nut on a Whillans Harness.
> ... battered EB's, smoking 3 fags at the same time, and carrying one wire nut on a Whillans Harness.
I trust those of us who started FBITD (further back in the day) by tying on to a hawser-laid rope with a bowline, wore two pairs of woolen socks (one red pair obl) and who learned to smear in bendy boots will qualify for a substantial discount?
2
In reply to nwclimber:
Venerable people from this era, such as yourself, will receive a special 'Canvas Backed' edition, completely free of charge.
> I trust those of us who started FBITD (further back in the day) by tying on to a hawser-laid rope with a bowline, wore two pairs of woolen socks (one red pair obl) and who learned to smear in bendy boots will qualify for a substantial discount?
Venerable people from this era, such as yourself, will receive a special 'Canvas Backed' edition, completely free of charge.
Post edited at 22:33
3
In reply to Goucho:
Thank f*ck for that....will there be a Braille option too?
> The text will be in a 20pt bold typeface.
Thank f*ck for that....will there be a Braille option too?
In reply to Goucho:
I have a number of years to go before I reach 50 so I'd like to pre-order a copy for my 50th birthday. Will there be a supplement or revised edition for the MRBITD (more recently back in the day) crowd?
I have a number of years to go before I reach 50 so I'd like to pre-order a copy for my 50th birthday. Will there be a supplement or revised edition for the MRBITD (more recently back in the day) crowd?
In reply to Goucho:
I can supply a photo of me falling off Swimmers Chimney AND LANDING ON Windy Ledge, improbable though that sounds. Plus other unlikely photos, mostly of bivis. Can I get 50% off the guidebook price please?
Also please include as many cream tea café reviews and locations as possible [more important than the climbs, in fact]. And nothing above HVD. Good luck with the book!
I can supply a photo of me falling off Swimmers Chimney AND LANDING ON Windy Ledge, improbable though that sounds. Plus other unlikely photos, mostly of bivis. Can I get 50% off the guidebook price please?
Also please include as many cream tea café reviews and locations as possible [more important than the climbs, in fact]. And nothing above HVD. Good luck with the book!
3
In reply to Goucho:
You may need to have some non-pc ads in the guides to make then financially viable, like a bird in nothing but her knickers and Javelin Jacket, or nude wrapped in a black rope, or that old Clog buy me and stop one ad
You may need to have some non-pc ads in the guides to make then financially viable, like a bird in nothing but her knickers and Javelin Jacket, or nude wrapped in a black rope, or that old Clog buy me and stop one ad
3
9
1
In reply to Goucho:
Drop Geoff Birtles an email and see if he want to be exec editor for some proper '70s non PC production values
Drop Geoff Birtles an email and see if he want to be exec editor for some proper '70s non PC production values
In reply to Goucho:
I look forward to buying a copy of your upcoming guidebook, but can I suggest that you add an appendix to explain to the over 70's some of the terms you are using?
For a start, what is A3? How does that compare with Foolscap?
There is no need to introduce a new grading system. The exising system of Easy to VS is simple to understand, and the prefixes of "mild" and "hard" help to distinguish between walks in the park and trouser filling moves. I applaud your decision to stick with the highest grade remaining a VS. This is well known to be the highest grade, and from time to time it is accepted that a leader may have to drape a sling with a Stubai krab over the occasional spike or Holly Tree at intervals of 30ft to 40ft (if you can find one). Introducing higher grades is contrary to the ethos of our sport and it's a principle I would give my life for.
There are a few terms I should like you to explain:
Cam? What's that?
E6 6b? I can only imagine that that's something taken from the Enigma Code.
4b? Sounds like a school class.
Lycra I have heard of and is, I believe, becoming quite fashionable.
MOACs also I've heard of - do you think they will catch on?
Ah! The Vaynol on a Saturday night - that brings happy memories of nights we spent there before staggering back to sleep in the straw in a rat infested barn. Another happy memory is Greasy Lil's (sometimes called the Hollies) truck stop on the A5 the highlight of a journey with 10 of us dossed down on the floor in the back of a Commer Van on the long haul up from London. I believe this journey has improved since the M1 was extended from Rugby.
A mug of Ovaltine in front of a roaring fire is a bit tame when you have a stock of Single Malts given to you by your grandchildren.
I look forward to buying a copy of your upcoming guidebook, but can I suggest that you add an appendix to explain to the over 70's some of the terms you are using?
For a start, what is A3? How does that compare with Foolscap?
There is no need to introduce a new grading system. The exising system of Easy to VS is simple to understand, and the prefixes of "mild" and "hard" help to distinguish between walks in the park and trouser filling moves. I applaud your decision to stick with the highest grade remaining a VS. This is well known to be the highest grade, and from time to time it is accepted that a leader may have to drape a sling with a Stubai krab over the occasional spike or Holly Tree at intervals of 30ft to 40ft (if you can find one). Introducing higher grades is contrary to the ethos of our sport and it's a principle I would give my life for.
There are a few terms I should like you to explain:
Cam? What's that?
E6 6b? I can only imagine that that's something taken from the Enigma Code.
4b? Sounds like a school class.
Lycra I have heard of and is, I believe, becoming quite fashionable.
MOACs also I've heard of - do you think they will catch on?
Ah! The Vaynol on a Saturday night - that brings happy memories of nights we spent there before staggering back to sleep in the straw in a rat infested barn. Another happy memory is Greasy Lil's (sometimes called the Hollies) truck stop on the A5 the highlight of a journey with 10 of us dossed down on the floor in the back of a Commer Van on the long haul up from London. I believe this journey has improved since the M1 was extended from Rugby.
A mug of Ovaltine in front of a roaring fire is a bit tame when you have a stock of Single Malts given to you by your grandchildren.
2
In reply to Goucho:
We need more contributions like this, it reminds me of the good old days when UKC started.
Sadly I must point out your sentiments should really apply to the over 60s (or 55s) as a majority of the over 50s I know started climbing in the 1980s.
We need more contributions like this, it reminds me of the good old days when UKC started.
Sadly I must point out your sentiments should really apply to the over 60s (or 55s) as a majority of the over 50s I know started climbing in the 1980s.
In reply to Trangia:
A3 is a road in the sarf.
E6 6b is a European clothes size.
"Cam" is short for "camera". "Cams" often appear in the 'Lost / found' forum. But how people get cameras stuck in grit cracks is beyond me.
4b - a pop or wrap singer.
You've heard of Lycra? What is it?
Ah, a night in the Vaynol, happy days, 2 shillings for a wild night out.
> ....can I suggest that you add an appendix to explain to the over 70's some of the terms you are using?
A3 is a road in the sarf.
E6 6b is a European clothes size.
"Cam" is short for "camera". "Cams" often appear in the 'Lost / found' forum. But how people get cameras stuck in grit cracks is beyond me.
4b - a pop or wrap singer.
You've heard of Lycra? What is it?
Ah, a night in the Vaynol, happy days, 2 shillings for a wild night out.
2
In reply to Goucho:
Assuming these books will come in a 'large print' edition, please put me down for a pre-order of the full set.
> I'm hoping the first of these guides will be available in all good charity shops by October.
Assuming these books will come in a 'large print' edition, please put me down for a pre-order of the full set.
In reply to Goucho:
Presumably the Lakes section will be much smaller with all the crap routes in the new guides missed out, no annoying pictures from the "I love myself photographic committee...'
Presumably the Lakes section will be much smaller with all the crap routes in the new guides missed out, no annoying pictures from the "I love myself photographic committee...'
In reply to Goucho:
Looking forward to this, especially the how to get drunk in the Vaynol for under a quid.
Looking forward to this, especially the how to get drunk in the Vaynol for under a quid.
In reply to Goucho:
Ha,good post Goucho
I'll be wearing my Compton Mk2 helmet (with chin protector) to the book launch.......
Ha,good post Goucho
I'll be wearing my Compton Mk2 helmet (with chin protector) to the book launch.......
In reply to Misha:
Time travel - but be warned, at the same time, your salary will drop to 30 quid a week if you're lucky.
> Looking forward to this, especially the how to get drunk in the Vaynol for under a quid.
Time travel - but be warned, at the same time, your salary will drop to 30 quid a week if you're lucky.
1
In reply to Sherlock:
I was thinking tweed breeches with Norwegian sweater but not sure about footwear...
> Ha,good post Goucho
> I'll be wearing my Compton Mk2 helmet (with chin protector) to the book launch.......
I was thinking tweed breeches with Norwegian sweater but not sure about footwear...
In reply to Rob Parsons:
Presumably sponsored by poundland reader glasses collection. I can no longer read the guidebooks I helped on without them.
Presumably sponsored by poundland reader glasses collection. I can no longer read the guidebooks I helped on without them.
Post edited at 10:59
In reply to Removed Usercanadian tim:
Nothing post 79' I'm afraid.
> I have a number of years to go before I reach 50 so I'd like to pre-order a copy for my 50th birthday. Will there be a supplement or revised edition for the MRBITD (more recently back in the day) crowd?
Nothing post 79' I'm afraid.
In reply to abseil:
Only if you make a contribution to the Idwal Slabs Bolting Fund.
Taken on board. I was thinking of including a page on the Bradwell Dale pancake shop - if it's still there?
> I can supply a photo of me falling off Swimmers Chimney AND LANDING ON Windy Ledge, improbable though that sounds. Plus other unlikely photos, mostly of bivis. Can I get 50% off the guidebook price please?
Only if you make a contribution to the Idwal Slabs Bolting Fund.
> Also please include as many cream tea café reviews and locations as possible [more important than the climbs, in fact]. And nothing above HVD. Good luck with the book!
Taken on board. I was thinking of including a page on the Bradwell Dale pancake shop - if it's still there?
Post edited at 11:44
In reply to kevin stephens:
Of course, - I've already got the inside front cover ad booked by G-String Bouldering.com - but I don't want to feature any cartoons about Billy Whizz & The Hydraulic Man.
> You may need to have some non-pc ads in the guides to make then financially viable, like a bird in nothing but her knickers and Javelin Jacket, or nude wrapped in a black rope, or that old Clog buy me and stop one ad
Of course, - I've already got the inside front cover ad booked by G-String Bouldering.com - but I don't want to feature any cartoons about Billy Whizz & The Hydraulic Man.
Post edited at 12:00
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
I can't afford Birtles.
> Drop Geoff Birtles an email and see if he want to be exec editor for some proper '70s non PC production values
I can't afford Birtles.
In reply to Trangia:
It's about (this much) bigger.
Apparently it's some new fangled piece of gear invented by an American called Ray, who was also the stunt double for Michael Caines glasses in the Harry Palmer films?
I do hope so.
> I look forward to buying a copy of your upcoming guidebook, but can I suggest that you add an appendix to explain to the over 70's some of the terms you are using?
> For a start, what is A3? How does that compare with Foolscap?
It's about (this much) bigger.
> There is no need to introduce a new grading system. The exising system of Easy to VS is simple to understand, and the prefixes of "mild" and "hard" help to distinguish between walks in the park and trouser filling moves. I applaud your decision to stick with the highest grade remaining a VS. This is well known to be the highest grade, and from time to time it is accepted that a leader may have to drape a sling with a Stubai krab over the occasional spike or Holly Tree at intervals of 30ft to 40ft (if you can find one). Introducing higher grades is contrary to the ethos of our sport and it's a principle I would give my life for.
> There are a few terms I should like you to explain:
> Cam? What's that?
Apparently it's some new fangled piece of gear invented by an American called Ray, who was also the stunt double for Michael Caines glasses in the Harry Palmer films?
> E6 6b? I can only imagine that that's something taken from the Enigma Code.
> 4b? Sounds like a school class.
> Lycra I have heard of and is, I believe, becoming quite fashionable.
> MOACs also I've heard of - do you think they will catch on?
I do hope so.
> Ah! The Vaynol on a Saturday night - that brings happy memories of nights we spent there before staggering back to sleep in the straw in a rat infested barn. Another happy memory is Greasy Lil's (sometimes called the Hollies) truck stop on the A5 the highlight of a journey with 10 of us dossed down on the floor in the back of a Commer Van on the long haul up from London. I believe this journey has improved since the M1 was extended from Rugby.
> A mug of Ovaltine in front of a roaring fire is a bit tame when you have a stock of Single Malts given to you by your grandchildren.
In reply to Misha:
You can actually achieve this for free on a really busy Saturday night?
> Looking forward to this, especially the how to get drunk in the Vaynol for under a quid.
You can actually achieve this for free on a really busy Saturday night?
1
In reply to Sherlock:
My first helmet, a red one. I then moved onto I think it was an AGV? with a big rubber bumper on the front, before graduating to the mother of all helmets, the JB - I love the smell of fibreglass in the morning.
> Ha,good post Goucho
> I'll be wearing my Compton Mk2 helmet (with chin protector) to the book launch.......
My first helmet, a red one. I then moved onto I think it was an AGV? with a big rubber bumper on the front, before graduating to the mother of all helmets, the JB - I love the smell of fibreglass in the morning.
Post edited at 11:56
In reply to Offwidth:
Another good point.
> We need more contributions like this, it reminds me of the good old days when UKC started.
> Sadly I must point out your sentiments should really apply to the over 60s (or 55s) as a majority of the over 50s I know started climbing in the 1980s.
Another good point.
In reply to Offwidth:
I'm still looking at sponsorship deals. So far I have Werthers, Kendal Mint and Watneys Red Barrel.
> Presumably sponsored by poundland reader glasses collection. I can no longer read the guidebooks I helped on without them.
I'm still looking at sponsorship deals. So far I have Werthers, Kendal Mint and Watneys Red Barrel.
In reply to Goucho:
I joined CAMERA partly becuase of Watneys (and left a few years later when in Nottingham I discovered they supported nasty breweries who actively blocked guest beers in their pubs and produced average to poor beer).. what were beer drinkers of the time thinking? Its like beer heaven these days around where I live.
I joined CAMERA partly becuase of Watneys (and left a few years later when in Nottingham I discovered they supported nasty breweries who actively blocked guest beers in their pubs and produced average to poor beer).. what were beer drinkers of the time thinking? Its like beer heaven these days around where I live.
In reply to Goucho:
How many Green Shield Stamps will I need to get any free copies of these guide books?
How many Green Shield Stamps will I need to get any free copies of these guide books?
1
In reply to mikej:
138, or 79 Embassy Cigarette Coupons?
> How many Green Shield Stamps will I need to get any free copies of these guide books?
138, or 79 Embassy Cigarette Coupons?
In reply to Goucho:
That's why you should temper your irony because, with bald heads and stooped shoulders, much of it will pass them by in an inkling. : (
That's why you should temper your irony because, with bald heads and stooped shoulders, much of it will pass them by in an inkling. : (
Post edited at 18:49
In reply to Goucho:
Ah......Mr 10%
Once upon a time, he was my best man. I was concerned about how much he was going to charge for his time Paul Nunn gave away the bride....free.
> I can't afford Birtles.
Ah......Mr 10%
Once upon a time, he was my best man. I was concerned about how much he was going to charge for his time Paul Nunn gave away the bride....free.
In reply to Goucho:
My first helmet was a white AGV, I then had a bright red Joe Brown.
> My first helmet, a red one. I then moved onto I think it was an AGV? with a big rubber bumper on the front, before graduating to the mother of all helmets, the JB - I love the smell of fibreglass in the morning.
My first helmet was a white AGV, I then had a bright red Joe Brown.
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
My first XS lead was Desperation at Stanage. I got to the top and was very pleased with myself, and doubly so when my second couldn't follow. As I gazed out, basking in that lovely warm feeling you get at such times, a hand came over the top, followed by the big smiling face of Paul Nunn, who had just nonchalantly soloed it (probably for the umpteenth time, but to a very young spotty lad, very impressive). He carried on smiling, gave me a pat on the shoulder and went on his way. A lovely man.
> Ah......Mr 10%
> Once upon a time, he was my best man. I was concerned about how much he was going to charge for his time Paul Nunn gave away the bride....free.
My first XS lead was Desperation at Stanage. I got to the top and was very pleased with myself, and doubly so when my second couldn't follow. As I gazed out, basking in that lovely warm feeling you get at such times, a hand came over the top, followed by the big smiling face of Paul Nunn, who had just nonchalantly soloed it (probably for the umpteenth time, but to a very young spotty lad, very impressive). He carried on smiling, gave me a pat on the shoulder and went on his way. A lovely man.
In reply to Goucho:
>... and 'highballs' on which a mat could be used, will receive a mandatory grade of either Hard Severe or Mild VS 4b depending on how many boulders are in the landing area.
When you say mat, I take it you mean a John Smiths beer towel? You could take a 30ft fall onto one of those and miss all the boulders. It improved the accuracy of your landings, having to hit something that size or risk major injury. Though of course you had the southern 'show off' types, with their Bishops Finger and Abbot Ale towels. I bet they even politely asked the barman if they could have them, rather than waiting 'till his back was turned.
>... and 'highballs' on which a mat could be used, will receive a mandatory grade of either Hard Severe or Mild VS 4b depending on how many boulders are in the landing area.
When you say mat, I take it you mean a John Smiths beer towel? You could take a 30ft fall onto one of those and miss all the boulders. It improved the accuracy of your landings, having to hit something that size or risk major injury. Though of course you had the southern 'show off' types, with their Bishops Finger and Abbot Ale towels. I bet they even politely asked the barman if they could have them, rather than waiting 'till his back was turned.
2
In reply to Goucho:
Hi, Groucho
I hope you will be reintroducing the grade Very Severe (rubbers), although we assumed that it referred to using 'rubbers' for protection, so we always carried 'a packet of three' on routes. We managed to place a few over spikes but couldn't really see how they came in useful. When ribbed ones came out we bought a load and rushed over to Tryfan East Face, but again to no avail. Halcyon Days
Hi, Groucho
I hope you will be reintroducing the grade Very Severe (rubbers), although we assumed that it referred to using 'rubbers' for protection, so we always carried 'a packet of three' on routes. We managed to place a few over spikes but couldn't really see how they came in useful. When ribbed ones came out we bought a load and rushed over to Tryfan East Face, but again to no avail. Halcyon Days
5
In reply to Goucho:
This sounds like utter climbing bliss. I didn't know Paul Nunn (I was hopelessly shy, still am really) but he always seemed a very thoughtful, kind man.
Mick
> My first XS lead was Desperation at Stanage.
> As I gazed out, basking in that lovely warm feeling you get at such times...
> He carried on smiling, gave me a pat on the shoulder and went on his way. A lovely man.
This sounds like utter climbing bliss. I didn't know Paul Nunn (I was hopelessly shy, still am really) but he always seemed a very thoughtful, kind man.
Mick
In reply to Goucho:
If we're going to have Paul Nunn stories, they should have their own thread. Nevertheless I shall add my own small contribution.
I bought Paul Nunn's Cloggy guides recently when they came up for sale. They're religiously ticked, (and it's astonishing btw how many people he climbed with). In the first two, Great Wall is not ticked, but there is a mark next to it in the graded list, indicating I suppose an ambition. In the last one, it is ticked, and it is recorded that he climbed it on his last visit to the cliff, with Steve Bancroft, very shortly before his death.
I loved that. First, that he was climbing with SB on his last visit to a cliff which clearly meant a lot to him, and where he made his name with an ascent of Vember as a 16-year-old (incidentally in November not the October it says in Hard Rock, according to the guide). Paul N always had a reputation as someone who spanned the generations, and I like this demonstration of it. Plus it's nice that SB was climbing even during his busking years.
Second, of course, it's nice that he got it done in the end. How old was he then - 60? Not a bad effort to do the hardest route of his glory years in the sixties 25 years or so later, at that age. It must have been a very satisfying day.
jcm
If we're going to have Paul Nunn stories, they should have their own thread. Nevertheless I shall add my own small contribution.
I bought Paul Nunn's Cloggy guides recently when they came up for sale. They're religiously ticked, (and it's astonishing btw how many people he climbed with). In the first two, Great Wall is not ticked, but there is a mark next to it in the graded list, indicating I suppose an ambition. In the last one, it is ticked, and it is recorded that he climbed it on his last visit to the cliff, with Steve Bancroft, very shortly before his death.
I loved that. First, that he was climbing with SB on his last visit to a cliff which clearly meant a lot to him, and where he made his name with an ascent of Vember as a 16-year-old (incidentally in November not the October it says in Hard Rock, according to the guide). Paul N always had a reputation as someone who spanned the generations, and I like this demonstration of it. Plus it's nice that SB was climbing even during his busking years.
Second, of course, it's nice that he got it done in the end. How old was he then - 60? Not a bad effort to do the hardest route of his glory years in the sixties 25 years or so later, at that age. It must have been a very satisfying day.
jcm
In reply to dread-i:
I used to cheat by stacking beer towels.
Also, I hope the guide admits the new-fangled idea of technical grades into the lower traditional grades i.e 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b, 3c.
> When you say mat, I take it you mean a John Smiths beer towel? You could take a 30ft fall onto one of those and miss all the boulders. It improved the accuracy of your landings, having to hit something that size or risk major injury. Though of course you had the southern 'show off' types, with their Bishops Finger and Abbot Ale towels. I bet they even politely asked the barman if they could have them, rather than waiting 'till his back was turned.
I used to cheat by stacking beer towels.
Also, I hope the guide admits the new-fangled idea of technical grades into the lower traditional grades i.e 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b, 3c.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Bumped into him a few times over the years - always had a big smile on his face.
> This sounds like utter climbing bliss. I didn't know Paul Nunn (I was hopelessly shy, still am really) but he always seemed a very thoughtful, kind man.
> Mick
Bumped into him a few times over the years - always had a big smile on his face.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
What a lovely thing to own.
> If we're going to have Paul Nunn stories, they should have their own thread. Nevertheless I shall add my own small contribution.
> I bought Paul Nunn's Cloggy guides recently when they came up for sale.
What a lovely thing to own.
In reply to dread-i:
I want to know why 90% of climbing beer towels were always John Smiths?
Personally, I had a Wilsons Bitter one.
> >... and 'highballs' on which a mat could be used, will receive a mandatory grade of either Hard Severe or Mild VS 4b depending on how many boulders are in the landing area.
> When you say mat, I take it you mean a John Smiths beer towel? You could take a 30ft fall onto one of those and miss all the boulders. It improved the accuracy of your landings, having to hit something that size or risk major injury. Though of course you had the southern 'show off' types, with their Bishops Finger and Abbot Ale towels. I bet they even politely asked the barman if they could have them, rather than waiting 'till his back was turned.
I want to know why 90% of climbing beer towels were always John Smiths?
Personally, I had a Wilsons Bitter one.
In reply to Graham Hoey:
If you inflated them, they were the precursor to Friends.
> Hi, Groucho
> I hope you will be reintroducing the grade Very Severe (rubbers), although we assumed that it referred to using 'rubbers' for protection, so we always carried 'a packet of three' on routes. We managed to place a few over spikes but couldn't really see how they came in useful. When ribbed ones came out we bought a load and rushed over to Tryfan East Face, but again to no avail. Halcyon Days
If you inflated them, they were the precursor to Friends.
2
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Of course it must, for example see Paul Nunn's 1975 guide page 90 " Emma's Delusion (S 4a) 40ft VD 3a"
Come to think of it Groucho could save a lot of time by arranging a reprint of that guide.
> Also, I hope the guide admits the new-fangled idea of technical grades into the lower traditional grades i.e 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b, 3c.
Of course it must, for example see Paul Nunn's 1975 guide page 90 " Emma's Delusion (S 4a) 40ft VD 3a"
Come to think of it Groucho could save a lot of time by arranging a reprint of that guide.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Lovely - well apart from plenty of random grades and a lot of totally useless topos (some were fine but a lot were hopeless),
Chris
> Yes, it was a lovely guide. Very happy still to have mine.
Lovely - well apart from plenty of random grades and a lot of totally useless topos (some were fine but a lot were hopeless),
Chris
Post edited at 13:38
In reply to Goucho:
Bit of a problem here in that any photo I sent you from that period would show me with hair and without the age related adipose tissue collection I seem to have acquired. However HH pile top and Dachsteins will be in evidence.
Any questions as to age could be resolved by asking said climber if he remembers the Javelin advert. If eyebrows rise (lets face it, it wont be anything else at this age) then he will be worthy of a copy.
Look forward to reading it (or rather having my nurse read it out to me).
Bit of a problem here in that any photo I sent you from that period would show me with hair and without the age related adipose tissue collection I seem to have acquired. However HH pile top and Dachsteins will be in evidence.
Any questions as to age could be resolved by asking said climber if he remembers the Javelin advert. If eyebrows rise (lets face it, it wont be anything else at this age) then he will be worthy of a copy.
Look forward to reading it (or rather having my nurse read it out to me).
1
In reply to Chris Craggs:
They were very tough grades, but reasonably consistent. I was someone who always wrote in a guide if I disagreed with a grade, and my Paul Nunn one has surprisingly few annotations. Mostly up one technical grade. Eg. April Crack 4b, Black Slab 4c (from 4a), Agony Crack 5a, Nails 5b, Joint Effort 5b, The Brain 5a (from 4b!). My biggest disagreement appears to have been Sand Buttress at Black Rocks VS 4b/c, from "S 4a".
> Lovely - well apart from pleanty of random grades and a lot of totally useless topos (some were fine but a lot were hopeless),
> Chris
They were very tough grades, but reasonably consistent. I was someone who always wrote in a guide if I disagreed with a grade, and my Paul Nunn one has surprisingly few annotations. Mostly up one technical grade. Eg. April Crack 4b, Black Slab 4c (from 4a), Agony Crack 5a, Nails 5b, Joint Effort 5b, The Brain 5a (from 4b!). My biggest disagreement appears to have been Sand Buttress at Black Rocks VS 4b/c, from "S 4a".
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
What a lovely, lovely story. Thank you so much for sharing it with us.
Steve could be acerbic - and he could be disarmingly considerate and supportive. My guess is that he was the latter on this occasion. Even after he got out of climbing, he could still do the business sporadically for a long while. His mind's always been a climbing computer. I've got a last memory of him burning me off on a F7b slab. He killed it with technique.
I've got a vague memory (this may be bollox, my brain cells are getting increasingly muddled) of Birtles telling me that Brown had done Great Wall when he was 64, in 1994 (ish). If so, this would be rather neat - twice the age he was when it was first done.
It's not over till it's over.
Mick
< Apologies to Goucho for a digression... but these threads seem to wander here and there. >
> In the last one, it is ticked, and it is recorded that he climbed it on his last visit to the cliff, with Steve Bancroft, very shortly before his death.
> I loved that. First, that he was climbing with SB on his last visit to a cliff which clearly meant a lot to him, and where he made his name with an ascent of Vember as a 16-year-old (incidentally in November not the October it says in Hard Rock, according to the guide). Paul N always had a reputation as someone who spanned the generations, and I like this demonstration of it. Plus it's nice that SB was climbing even during his busking years.
> How old was he then - 60? Not a bad effort to do the hardest route of his glory years in the sixties 25 years or so later, at that age. It must have been a very satisfying day.
What a lovely, lovely story. Thank you so much for sharing it with us.
Steve could be acerbic - and he could be disarmingly considerate and supportive. My guess is that he was the latter on this occasion. Even after he got out of climbing, he could still do the business sporadically for a long while. His mind's always been a climbing computer. I've got a last memory of him burning me off on a F7b slab. He killed it with technique.
I've got a vague memory (this may be bollox, my brain cells are getting increasingly muddled) of Birtles telling me that Brown had done Great Wall when he was 64, in 1994 (ish). If so, this would be rather neat - twice the age he was when it was first done.
It's not over till it's over.
Mick
< Apologies to Goucho for a digression... but these threads seem to wander here and there. >
In reply to Mick Ward:
You must be one of a small select group who've experienced the latter two Mick
But my goodness, couldn't he climb.
> Steve could be acerbic - and he could be disarmingly considerate and supportive.
You must be one of a small select group who've experienced the latter two Mick
But my goodness, couldn't he climb.
In reply to Mick Ward:
>Brown had done Great Wall when he was 64, in 1994 (ish).
I thought that was Suicide Wall. And, of course, Cho Oyu, or whatever it's called. I'd prefer your version, though. Hope it's true.
Though he did put up some new E4 on Red Wall at an alarmingly advanced age, I know. Rapture of the Deep, maybe.
jcm
>Brown had done Great Wall when he was 64, in 1994 (ish).
I thought that was Suicide Wall. And, of course, Cho Oyu, or whatever it's called. I'd prefer your version, though. Hope it's true.
Though he did put up some new E4 on Red Wall at an alarmingly advanced age, I know. Rapture of the Deep, maybe.
jcm
In reply to Goucho:
Can any of your readers remember the time boots (boots) were so badly fitting that they could be worn on the wrong foot to eke out a bit more use when the wearer's socks began to show through?
Can any of your readers remember the time boots (boots) were so badly fitting that they could be worn on the wrong foot to eke out a bit more use when the wearer's socks began to show through?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Another random Paul Nunn post
Paul Nunn was an absolutely fantastic bloke & is sadly missed by all who knew him
Not long before he went away on his fatal trip we had a lovely day at the Cromlech. Resurrection, Left & Right wall and he climbed all of them without too much trouble.
Incidentally all the E grades in the later editions of his book were not graded by him.
Another random Paul Nunn post
Paul Nunn was an absolutely fantastic bloke & is sadly missed by all who knew him
Not long before he went away on his fatal trip we had a lovely day at the Cromlech. Resurrection, Left & Right wall and he climbed all of them without too much trouble.
Incidentally all the E grades in the later editions of his book were not graded by him.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Not really an issue and totally in line with Goucho's proposed titles viz 'A Guide full of Bollocks', 'A Few Bollocks More', and 'Crack, Slab & More Smoking Bollocks'
> Lovely - well apart from plenty of random grades and a lot of totally useless topos (some were fine but a lot were hopeless),
Not really an issue and totally in line with Goucho's proposed titles viz 'A Guide full of Bollocks', 'A Few Bollocks More', and 'Crack, Slab & More Smoking Bollocks'
In reply to Goucho:
I'm rather proud that my original CD guide to the United Arab Emirates became fondly known as 'The Book of Choss' - though not all routes were equally as loose - and some were even remarkably solid.
I'm rather proud that my original CD guide to the United Arab Emirates became fondly known as 'The Book of Choss' - though not all routes were equally as loose - and some were even remarkably solid.
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