UKC

There seems to be a few people giving advice on technical subjects lately who appear to be pretty inexperienced.

Watching YouTube vids and reading a few AK articles in my opinion doesn't put you in a position to be dishing out technical advise.

There's some super experienced people on here with a wealth of knowledge, it would be a shame to have all the great advice lost in a sea of pish.

In reply to jezb1:




That's the internet for you innit!

Chris

In reply to jezb1:

Maybe we should introduce litigation for bad advice.....

In reality, I wonder how we stand in giving out advice? Say somone died as a result of following crap advice given here? Obviously UKIP can't be blamed, they are merely a vehicle on which others ask and receive advice, but what about the posters themselves? If they pupport to be "expert" in a subject and someone relies on their "expertise" is there a legal issue there?

In reply to Trangia:

Tell me you meant UKC and not UKIP...!

In reply to jezb1:

Good point, and a general problem with seeking advice about anything anywhere on the internet, but what would you suggest we do about it?

I usually check the profiles of people saying things i find interesting / controversial, but hwo that useful that is depends on whether people keep their profiles up to date and more or less truthful. (In my case, generally truthful but I don't bother to update very often)

Also, lots of people with many years of experience learned enough basics to get by but no more than that. Not having died in twenty years of climbing might say something but not necessarily as much as you might think. I climbed quite a bit in the 80s and 90s, then started again a few years ago after a long break. BITD I was the typical UK traddie, rarely fell or held falls, didn't need to know much about efficient multipitch ropework or self-rescue etc.

Now I mostly do sport in the spring & autumn and alpine rock routes in the summer, and have basically had to re-learn everything from scratch. Proper sport belaying with soft catches etc. Efficient multipitch ropework for long routes, basic self rescue. I would say I've learned more in the last five years that I had in fifteen years previously.

I do pick up quite a bit of useful stuff on the internet from the likes of Andy K, David Coley & rgold. But I have enough background experience to be able to assess pros, cons, differences between what people are saying and what I already know/do.

In reply to jon:


I cant wait to hear Nigel Farage's beta on "The Indian Face".

In reply to AlanLittle:

Well for goodness sake don't take advice from strangers on the internets. Watch Bear Grylls on the telly instead - that's on the telly so it must be good. And he's the chief scout, so it's not as if he'd be lying about anything is it.

In reply to jezb1:

Well, yes, but so what? Do you think the moderators should delete bad advice? If you want good advice, go to a professional. If you ask for advice in an internet form, you get what you're given.

Besides, experience could just mean they haven't been killed yet.

In reply to Trangia:


If I have to wait in a queue for a 3* classic behind Johnny Foreigner....grrr..

In reply to jezb1:

Almost inevitable, really. All you can do is rely on people reading profiles and past posting history - and, more importantly, thinking a bit for themselves.

In reply to jezb1:
If only every post asking for advice we could just put links to our websites. Don't think that would go down well though!

In reply to jezb1:

Oh the desperate desire to help and show off what little they think they know.

It can get worse... I've known a few keen newish climbers who put their bad and mad ideas into practice with the even less experienced. The most dangerous of these, after being banned from dealing with club beginners took some out independently and nearly killed one of them (physically wrecked for life, after multiple complex hip fractures... first ever abseil off the tip of a prow with no back up) and came close to killing partners on a few other occasions as well.

Alan is right as well... plenty of old experienced climbers still demonstrate bad practice (and the people mentioned who are very much worth listening to).

Like Graham says you can tell a lot from the profile. If they don't have a profile and you don't know for sure they know what they are talking about just ignore them. Maybe UKC could add a comment to the forum guidelines .... please don't give technical advice unless you are sure you are qualifed to do so (but still beware.... my mad bad examples knew they knew )

In reply to Offwidth:


There fixed that for you.

In reply to deepstar:


He used to post on here as DJ Viper.

In reply to jon:


I did, but come to think of it.........

In reply to GridNorth:

You could be right:

"I would rather give up climbing then spend a day on a single pitch working the moves".....sounds to me like Ashdown hat territory

In reply to Offwidth:


Excellent succinct description of how university mountaineering clubs (used to?) work

In reply to jezb1:

There are the profiles and now the like/dislike buttons so any thread attracting more than a handful of responses should end up with the better advice floating to the top and the downright dangerous flagged as such.

jk

In reply to jezb1:

I was initially torn as to whether being a newbie I should ever reply to anything. Instead I opted to fill in my profile. I don't really want anyone to ever take what I have to say as truth, I certainly take absolutely nothing said by anyone on this site as necessarily true.

The way I see it, each and every person who can reason for themselves, should filter through everyone's ideas and thoughts and come to their own mind through reasoned discourse. Yes you might be reading a few more lines, but it's not that hard. And I think it really is the best way, for a couple of reasons:

- Experience doesn't mean much, it doesn't even mean the person is safe, as one can just be lucky for a long time

- Ability to climb hard doesn't mean much, either, other than that you're good at getting up things most people can't

- (Climbing) qualifications don't mean much. I've found little difference between the IFMGAs I've hired, and those who had unmentioned qualifications

- The majority opinion, is just that, an opinion that maybe completely wrong. Of a thread of 100 posts, it may well be the guy who has never left the gym who provides the best advice



That is a tough problem. A lot of our technical subjects that come up I see as actually engineering questions. But, these are commonly answered by...Climbers. People who typically have a (relatively) poor understanding of the systems they use.

I'm not saying climbers are idiots, the systems are genuinely very difficult to get a grip on what actually happens in various scenarios in the real world. It really is a difficult problem to answer questions like 'does having a revolver biner on the top piece reduce the load?' or 'which belay device would probably be the safest for weak gripped friend to use?' without quite involved experiments.

Probably a good example of a whole lot of good climbers giving bad advice was the whole if you drop a carabiner you should bin it because of microfractures in Aluminium. Sounds reasonable right? Plenty of people believed it. Turned out to be...Well mostly just a huge scare perpetuated by people with a lack of evidence or experience as anything more than a casual user of Aluminium.


What if you'd read a lot of AK's articles? What if you'd read every edition of ANAM? What if you'd followed CMac's excellent how-to-aid videos and read his advice and book?

Now suppose what if you didn't read publications and had just spent that time climbing instead. Whose opinion is more valuable?


This is a good topic for a thread, I don't know what the best answer is. I'd like to think everyone would learn and absorb and filter on their own, but lots of people aren't like that. Some people just want a single answer that they can run with. Picking that single answer from the sea of pish may well be beyond their capability or motivation.

In reply to jezb1:

I'm not sure I see the problem. The clue is in the name : 'forum' - i.e., it's little different than a chat in a pub. How would you treat advice from a stranger in a pub? Why would you treat advice on a forum any differently? The main difference being that on UKC it's much easier to get some background on the advisor and hence filter out the good from the bad. If UKC was being put forward as an accredited education resource, that would be different, but it's not. It's just a forum.

Rather than going down the path of trying to impose some rules (formal or informal) you'd be better of just helping people in how to use this valuable resource intelligently. A comment which probably applies to much of the internet (and the real world) in general.

In reply to needvert:
I simply dont believe the average IFMGA guide you have hired is matched by your 'average joe' unqualified experienced climber (an unqualified person who has great expertise in climbing systems maybe). The engineering issue you raise is mostly nonsense as the national and international bodies that assess kit safety deal with this and promote best practice that is trained in the qualifications and should be reasonably understandable to all (or do we all now need to be multi-specialist engineers before we climb? ). Read all you like but without practical use of the skills you read about I would never trust you... the worst of my mad and bad examples had read loads. Experience and some reasonably hard climbs (guide standard levels) are not sufficient but they are neccesary to be taken seriously when instructing at the top levels.

In reply to jezb1:

The (dangerously) underqualified advisors are everywhere, not just on here. I have been told that I was belaying dangerously, that I should be sitting down! Quite difficult, even if the route is a diff on Idwal slabs. He assured me he knew all about it as he had an SPA! It kept me amused to watch his poor second with loads of slack rope hanging down while this 'guy' spent most of his time trying to stay on the sloping stuff he was trying to belay from, as my second had the stance. We soon left them behind so the problem did not occur again.
I have had similar 'help and advice' on Peak crags. (You shouldn't be on that route without cams. A route I first lead in 1967, and on which I like to lead with exactly the same gear! I have had an SPA try to persuade my belayer to change technique whilst I was actually climbing! ("Can you hold it there for a minute". The belay was solid, the belayer experienced and my reply unprintable!) and many other examples.) If I see someone at risk of killing or seriously injuring someone I may speak up, but I do try to avoid interfering.
Many of these 'helpers/advisors' are newly 'qualified' people who have got a piece of paper from someone who is in it for the money. I am finding it quite depressing to see the level of ability and knowledge of these so called qualified people.
Rant over!

In reply to jezb1:

I'm a punter and alway will be. I've always had a bit of a think before offering any technical advice on here and have only done it on a handfull of times on subjects that I've had experiences with be it good or bad and I always state in the post that I'm not the greatest of climbers and to take the advice with a pinch of salt because of my lack of actual hard climbing.
For example I had a near obsession in getting my crampons to fit my boots. I bought a pair of crampons from virtually every crampon making company and fudged about getting different toe bails and mixing and matching for a while until in my opinion I got the best fit for these boots.
I suppose the crux of this is am I experienced enough to offer advice on fitting a crampon onto a boot?My profile is accurate but I'll never climb above grade V, I've not climbed anything hard in the Alps, plus I'm unfit and overweight.

It's up to the reader to decide whether I'm talking pish or not and UKC being UKC they'll normally tell you
and I'm pretty sure the readers can separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

cheers

Gaz

In reply to jezb1:

There are loads of instructional videos on the UKC and BMC websites, as well as some great instructional books out there.
You do get some dodgy posts giving advice. There is also some excellent info on conditions etc on here though. Its just common sense really.

In reply to needvert:


You have to be joking. Unless of course the advice is about gym climbing.

In reply to jon:


There really isn't much that can be said about wall bar technique anyway.

In reply to Offwidth:


I worded that sentence a bit poorly re the IFMGA, both groups I had paid for their time in similar roles.



Sure. National and international bodies are a great source of information. But, they are not the end all be all - they're just a group of people after all (one that typically doesn't have a huge R&D budget), and they don't opening publish formal opinions on all practices (that's obviously unpractical as they have finite resources). The assessing kit is an interesting thing, I have various bits of gear that AFAICT don't fit under any standard, yet I still consider them fine bits of climbing kit - myself and the companies making them have both make our own judgement on the said pieces.


Let me spin that around, and give you my opinion:

Climb all you like but without being able to critical think about the skills you use I would never trust you... the worst of my mad and bad climbing partners had climbed lots.


Really depends what you're instructing. If it's how to do reasonably hard climbs, then that makes a lot of sense. If it's answering a question on how to setup a solo TR, or belay a second off two bolts - who cares how long or hard they've climb? I certainly don't.


This is always at the forefront of my mind in conversations like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

In reply to jon:

Not at all. That guy may be a skilled rope access technician, a very talented physiotherapist, or he might have just finished their doctorate on novel ways to mitigate corrosion in coastal structures.

I can think of a few UKC questions where they might be able to provide very wise advice.

In reply to needvert:

Oh look we can have a lovely game of wiki tennis:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories

Like John Cook I despair at times on the the advice doled out by SPA qualified folk on the crags but the authorities in climbing safety take their roles very seriously. Most ofthe posters I find helpful are known climbers or give good profile details. You on the other hand mix generally good advice on kit with occassional real odd stuff; all from a profile with no real detail and saying "I have no notable ascents, experience or qualifications... you probably shouldn't listen to anything I say".... rather than this daft 'chip on the shoulder' web profile why not come clean?

In reply to Offwidth:

By far the most interesting and useful advice on here has nothing to do with climbing!

In reply to AlanLittle:
Indeed, indeed! New second years rich with a year's experience and necky new third years showing beginners how to do it. Fortunately, the Good Lord looked after his own at my own dear alma mater.

In reply to jcw:

Or indeed, cannon fodder.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Indeed, but thats not the theme of this thread.

In reply to cmgcmg:

Although I symaphise with that it does depend on the belay and the policeman. I have intervened at times when the indications were that the climbers were clueless and at great risk (and I have suffered like you at times....not using locking crabs on a belay, only one belay piece, only 2!! Etc)

In reply to Offwidth:

Hah, curious assessment of me I'm curious as to what the real odd stuff is. There's not much detail to give, that profile about sums me up. I'm see myself as a beginner, aspiring to suck less at this climbing thing, there's really not much to say about a lack of accomplishment.

I don't think the conspiracy theories page is anywhere near as relevant to this thread as the argument from authority page, but, that's up to the reader to decide!

In reply to Offwidth:



I have no idea what that means but judging by your previous exchanges with me I assume it's a put down?

In reply to deepstar:


"I shouted at it until it went back home to India."

In reply to jezb1:
The slightly terrifying thing is that (due to the inevitably rapid turnover of University clubs) I will be one of the more 'experienced' members of my club next year (would not normally refer to myself as experienced!).

I would also add that there is nothing wrong with the SPA qualification. There may indeed be something wrong with some SPA holders (I have also heard a few terrifying stories), but don't judge the qualification by those who choose to take it! Plenty of terrible drivers still out there for instance despite the UK driving test being fairly robust...
There is probably also a selection effect in that those seeking the SPA may not be avid climbers themselves (at least not trad climbers) but just gain the qualification to add another 'skill' to their toolbox of professional outdoor things.

That said I really need to get around to doing the SPA assessment at some point (albeit only for my own amusement)...

PS the reading of all of the collected works of AK should be mandatory for all new climbers (message brought to you by the Church of AK)

In reply to jezb1:

I'm a climbing punter, and a largely lapsed climbing punter at that. But I have a reasonable grasp of the mechanics of protection, having an engineering bent. So, on the rare occasion that I offer advice, I always try to back it up with my rationale, rather than just saying 'do this'. Then, at least, people can analyse my argument for sanity.

On a couple of occasions, I've questioned some advice; not because I thought I had the right answer, but because the advice given seemed questionable. Again, I gave my reasoning.

I've seen people here, who have years of experience, make comments that immediately make me realise they simply don't understand how climbing protection systems work.

In reply to jezb1:
I have learnt quite few interesting things off the internet. I learnt how to rope solo lead without the Silent Partner without any books or instructors, because no one should tell you how to (I think Andy/Dave mentioned something in the Advanced Multi-pitch Climbing). It took me two hours to climb 7 metres climb (setting up a back up top rope, building an anchor at the bottom, leading and placing gear with a top rope backup, abseiling down and cleaning the bottom anchor and lead protection, climbing back up the rope). That's the time without rigging the whole system at home, making sure that it works and holds before even trying to lift my ass off the chair.

The way I imagine the Internet... It is a place where everyone shouts, but very few listen and think. I do not blindly trust some stranger on the internet as I know that I might be wrong while giving an advice to somebody else (and I am happy to be told that I am wrong). I am a punter, I do mistakes, but I learn from them and move on.

In reply to PPP:


Sounds like a day well spent

In reply to jezb1:


Have to admit I tend not to. By the time I've seen a technical query there are normally about 40 replies already so I'm not really going to add anything to the mayhem.

The real difficulty is for the poor enquirer who has to wade through a variety of conflicting responses.

In reply to needvert:


Ah, silly me, and there I was thinking you were talking about climbing issues. Especially as you'd just said:


Now I can't really comment on that little pearl of wisdom as I've never hired a guide. So what sort of things had you in mind?

In reply to PPP:

Trying to get my head round that one. What did you use instead of a silent partner? And how did you stay protected from the top rope back-up?

In reply to jon:

but I suspect you've climbed with a few ...

In reply to Michael Gordon:
Grigri 2 with clove hitches (usually 2-3) as back ups. Quite fiddly and not so fun for free climbing (compared to aid climbing), but having a suitable rope made it quite a nice experience in the end of the day.

My first solo lead was backed up with a Petzl Shunt (again, someone will tell "yer gonna die"). So I was leading with one rope, but backed up myself by another rope. Makes it painful to deal with, but better than just leading straight up! A second lead was without a back up and it was so much more fun.

EDIT: I should have added, a Grigri was slightly modified to keep it upright.

In reply to Andy Say:

Aye. I call that day as one of the days where I learnt the most about climbing. Basically a lot of rope work and little climbing, but after that, you know everything you need about anchors and upward forces!

In reply to jon:



I want to know what 'unmentioned qualifications' are?

I've got a CSE in woodwork, does that count?

In reply to jezb1:




2 golden rules to remember regarding advice -

1) Only take advice on a route from someone who's done it.

2) Experience is measured in feet not years

In reply to PPP:

Did you test the (lead) system, i.e. drop off? I imagine getting just the right (small) amount of slack in both ropes could be difficult.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I did slump on gear, but had no large falls. I guess if I was on a good ledge, I could tie any knot below the Shunt, then disconnect the Shunt and fall on the lead rope. If lead system failed, top rope back up with lots of slack would (eventually) hold. Something to try next time maybe, but I have been lucky enough to have someone to climb with. The biggest concern is usually the ground anchor, but there are some workarounds. I can't remember I tried any of them, but I wouldn't mind using any of them.

As Grigri can be attached only with one carabiner, it is not good idea to trust it blindly. That's where good old clove hitches come back to play, just tie them on the dead end of the rope so if Grigri fails (and it looks like they do...), clove hitch will stop. The reason I tie more than one clove hitch to different carabiners is that I can unclip one clove hitch and I would still have (two) more. Once another rest is found, tie another 3 clove hitches or so. DMM Boa seemed to be the nicest to deal with one hand and I also have a colour pack of them - easy to distinguish if you have some system.

There's a good reason why there's not so much information about rope solo leading. I don't want to check what I've read as I might just delete everything - I would call it cheating to find all the necessary information in one place. It is not that difficult once you know how, but there's just too many things that can go wrong.

In reply to PPP:

Agreed. Little value is placed on something you get for free.

In reply to Goucho:


I dunno, what grade did you get? C or above and you're good.

In reply to jezb1:

Agreed. .I've been climbing for years but still don't give advice on things where I know others
on here know more. Even on my favourite crags etc there are plenty of real experts before I pipe up. You see it all the time where someone clearly doesn't know what they're on about. However if you want to know anything about painting and decorating.....I'm your man

In reply to GridNorth:
Its a joke and a play on your comment as indicated by the return smiley (as in the unlikely chance the worked climb event happened you would probably change your mind and not give up climbing). I don't remember any particluarly serious past issues I've had with you and see you as one of the most useful posters on the site with your wealth of experience. I don't always agree with you, but so what.

In reply to needvert

The profile detail should relate to your background, to explain your interests behind your common equipment posts (so people can take them more seriously). At the moment you give them no reason to trust. If you dont want people trusting...why comment so much on the subject??

In reply to Goucho:


Certainly not if it's anything like my grade 4 (as I recall). The good grade being because I must have aced the written component.

In reply to jezb1:

Not read the whole thread yet. Been climbing since the 80s, ran a successful rope access biz for 10 years. I'm probably covered.

In reply to jezb1:

I watched a guy introduce A, B , C skips..

The top link when you search A and B skips..

youtube.com/watch?v=SyVDRndKY34&

Look at the comments?

The guy knows nothing...

In reply to jezb1:
This is the Internet and, like it or not, this bad advice abounds. In my opinion, I'd much rather see bad advice here, on UKC, where there's at least a measurable chance that someone else will call it out as such. If it wasn't here, I fear that the self-proclaimed "experts" would just spew their advice elsewhere on the Web (probably their personal "I are a sick climba!" blog) and that would be truly dangerous - even if you comment below the blog post people generally consider the post itself to be far more credible than its associated comments, regardless of the profile of the commenter. Also, really experienced blokes while away hours behind their desks trawling UKC - they aren't using Google to find unsubstantiated and dangerous advice elsewhere.

I've read a few climber's blogs giving technical advice and they are usually drivel. (Last one I saw blatantly advocated using 'biners on 'biners - metal on metal! (Personally, the physicist in me says that this is not exactly unsafe but it is certainly inauspicious and will definitely incur a karmic debt.))

A bloke once taught me how to pass a knot on an abseil, in a rope-access training hall. The technique stays with me but something he said is ingrained even more indelibly in my memory. I was half-way through the process and realised that I had used both my prussik loops and failed to achieve the desired effect. The advice he offered was: "Work it out. You have to struggle."

In reply to Goucho:



Not now you've mentioned it, if you'd kept quiet then yes

In reply to Goucho:



No that's an unmentionable qualification!

In reply to Xharlie:


Understanding what you need to achieve and avoid then figuring out how you might do so with what's available is far more valuable than being told how to do something with the right kit. Requires thought though.

jk

In reply to Xharlie:


What's wrong with screwgate to screwgate? (I do this quite frequently)...

In reply to jezb1:

Something which I have applied to all my hobbies, aswell as technical aspects of my careers......for every hour you physically do something, spend an hour in the books aswell.
No good if your hobby is just reading, obviously

In reply to Xharlie:


I'd go with your inner physicist and work it out depending on the situation.

In reply to deepsoup:

???

I dare say things like Nigel Shephard's books of Modern Rope Techniques could be a better place than either, and the American mags Climbing and Rock & Ice and similar...

In reply to Xharlie:


Without context, it sounds like he needs sacking. That said, I'm struggling to invent context.

In reply to David Alcock:

His point was that, in a controlled environment where there was no real risk and he was watching to make sure I didn't do anything stupid, it was better to learn by trial and error than just following instructions. (Thought that was obvious, in my post.)

In reply to jezb1:

is this just a very good example or what?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=615698

In reply to andrewmcleod:

As do lots of people including myself.

I think his claim was just trolling this thread by giving unqualified advice!

In reply to David Alcock:

It made sense to me.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

"What's wrong with screwgate to screwgate?"

The reason advice is often given to avoid linking metal components (I suppose this should be rigid components) in a safety chain is that in the event of a twist or tangle they can operate as a lever on each other and one can damage and prise the other open. Placing a soft flexible component (eg sling) between the carabiners reduces this risk.

Hence the answer is be aware of the risk and use your kit accordingly.

In reply to aultguish:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Act-Reading-Theory-Aesthetic-Response/dp/0801823714...

1H in the books for 1H at the controls is probably a lot easier when your chosen field is diverse, interesting and perhaps more importantly: likely to kill you should you get it wrong.

jk

In reply to David Alcock:


Seems like good advice to me? Working stuf out 2 foot of the ground, warm, in the safe enviroment of a training hall is far better than 6 pitches up a big wall with a storm on the way. Having to work it out for youself will mean the lesson will be remebered for longer.

In reply to galpinos:

Not only that, but you actually WANT stuff to go wrong when you're 2-feet off the ground in a warm and safe environment and being watched. If you just nail the technique perfectly, you only learn the technique. If you drop your prussik and get the knot jammed into your ATC and your instructor just stands there and makes no move to help you, you learn how to get off the knot and that slings make good prussik-substitutes.

The only concern, 2-feet off the ground, is whether you'll get to the pub before last rounds.