UKC

Hello,

I am an industrial design student and for a school assignment it is the aim to improve an ice axe with an electronic upgrade. The upgrade must involve a measurement of time, distance, uv strength or another unit. Some ideas I have:

- An easy height measurement tool integrated in the ice axe. With this height measurement tool you can read your current height, the average speed with wich you raise and the durance of the climb combined with the distance.

- An measurement tool for the hardness of the ice. This tool will tell you if the ice is strong enough for the axe

I am not an experienced climber so I don't know if one of these ideas seems like a good idea for ice climbers. My question for you climbers is:

Does one of these ideas seems like a good idea to you? And do you have a good idea yourself?

I hope to hear from you!

In reply to Industrial design student:


Far better off with separate tools!


Don't confuse hardness with strength!


No.


No. Except (seriously!) think of something else entirely. Probably not involving ice axes...

In reply to Industrial design student:

Hi! I think it would be cool to have a FORCE measurement on your ice axe, so you can see how hard you swung it. You could probably do this with an accelerometer. It would be great, like at the fair where you have to punch the big red ball as hard as you can.

In reply to Industrial design student:

Heated grips would be nice.

In reply to Industrial design student:

Could have a handle-warmer (for ice-climbers with poor circulation). Measurement of temperature would be used to ensure it doesn't get too hot/cold. Obviously such a product doesn't deserve to exist, but it might be enough for you to make a waffly design project on.

In reply to Industrial design student:

Specific problems:
Most, but not all, batteries don't go together with cold very well so maybe not "ice" axe
The only thing you can modify is the shaft not the head and then only by putting something inside it.
Its structural strength is partly the continuous oval shape so any switch, display, connector or anything which requires cutting into this is not good.
All measurement devices that record where or what the climber is doing will be a lot better done using a phone app or similar.
You are then left with whatever is unique about an ice axe.
And I cant think of anything, but that is where you need to look.

In reply to m0unt41n:

There are ice axes which don't have a hollow shaft which is oval shaped, which have slots in them for lightness.

In reply to Industrial design student:

I have seen/heard/dreamed on the internet that there was a wrist gadget which allows to communicate between the climber and the belayer (person who holds the rope). If you could incorporate couple of LEDs or even a small screen to give commands, such as 'take', 'safe', 'on belay', 'off belay', etc., that might be appreciated. You can find the calls and their meanings here: http://www.abc-of-rockclimbing.com/climbingcalls.asp

However, trusting an electronic device in Scottish weather just doesn't sound promising and the gadget (well, any gadget) strapped to the ice axe will be difficult. It's not going to be a deal breaker and I don't think anyone would use it, but if you just want an idea for the project, that's probably the closest that actually might be helpful.

In reply to Industrial design student:

You could possibly fit the bits and pieces in the holes in the axe shaft?

http://www.e-climb.com/121-452-thickbox/axe-cryo-2.jpg

In reply to Industrial design student:

I'm not sure how you're going to use any information you can gather? Either you've got to trigger some sort of effector (not sure what this would be on an axe) or display it to the user which will be tricky.

In reply to Industrial design student:

There's no reason to mount this on an ice axe but a combination of time elapsed and UV measurement could alert an inexperienced climber when snow blindness is becoming a danger.

In reply to Industrial design student:axe

A small bright light for those times you get caught in the dark so you can see where you are placing your point.

Bluetooth to shout at your axe to stay in place or when you drop it off a edge you can tell it what a c**t f****ing w***ing clumsy tosser bastard thing it is as chatters several thousand feet down a mountain side

In reply to Kassius:

Petzl E+Lite would do the job as a small light and it would be cheaper than R&D with very limited number of potential buyers...

In reply to Industrial design student:

Isn't much more effective if the height meter and distance meter are on the axe instead of on your phone? In my eyes it would be nice to see your current height on a quick easy way instead of getting your phone out of your pocket and look on it? (I am sorry for my poor English btw, I am from the Netherlands)

In reply to Industrial design student:

I'm calling troll. Electronic ice axe my bum.

In reply to Industrial design student:


Frickin' laser beams.

In reply to Industrial design student:

A little display screen in the handle that shows an open or tightly closed sphincter according to how much of the pick has penetrated the ice

In reply to PPP:

The e lites just another head torch though if you built a single high power xenon led into the pick or top of the shaft you've got extra light for very little extra weight and the power consumption would be low. The market is small for these products anyway and there always changing the design cosmetically or structurely and the majority of companies that make axes also do lights as well so it's not like they haven't got access to the parts for minimal investment. I would put money on it at least being tried in the next few years by one of the big names

In reply to Industrial design student:

There are some interesting ideas proposed here.

I like the idea of a Swiss Army tool rather than a modified ice axe. Why not start with a blank piece of paper and shoot for the moon?

So, on my version there would be a bottle opener, can opener and magnifying glass.

I think there is a lot of commercial scope for such a device if you put it into the hands of some of the leaders in the sector. I would like to see this being used by Bear Grylls and MacGyver before I invest.

Have you considered the Dutch version of Dragon's Den?

In reply to Industrial design student:

A built in bolting kit like the one in 'Cliffhanger'.

In reply to Industrial design student:

On a slightly more serious note ....

I was once out to in Scotland in winter with an axe. As I walked I noticed a humming noise nearby. I couldn't locate the source of the noise until I held my axe close to my ear. I soon twigged that the noise was the axe discharging static and there was a bl##dy great thunderstorm on the way. Obvious I got down from the summit ridge asap. An addition to a walking axe could be a small visual/auditory indicator of electric field strength to warn against impending lightning strikes.

Hang on a minute - what about an avalanche transceiver?

In reply to Industrial design student:

What I've always wondered is if it'd be possible to have a telescoping ice-axe. Not really to make it smaller to pack, but to have one size for walking (70-80cm), and another for steeper ground (50-60cm). Maybe it already exists o_o

In reply to Industrial design student:
My initial though is that putting electronics in an ice axe is a stupid idea.

But if I was going to do it anyway I'd have an insert in the handle containing a microphone/vibration sensor in contact with the metal body of the axe and some signal processing. When the axe is used there's going to be a characteristic vibration and if you analyse the vibration data from the microphone and combine it with data from an accelerometer you could probably figure out quite a lot. Certainly enough to look at collected data at the end of the day and gauge how much of a workout the climber had had and possibly how good their technique was. Maybe enough to have a real time green/red indication about how well the axe was embedded in ice.

In reply to Industrial design student:

The best thing I can think of is to stick an accelerometer onto the back of an ice axe and go do a load of testing. Hit it hard, hit it soft, hit it so hard some ice breaks, latch it in then try and pull through, repeat all of this and look for patterns in the data. Just maybe you might stumble upon a pattern you can use. Maybe it could sound a buzzer if the ice sheet your on is about to all come loose, or maybe it just downloads to your phone when you get back to tell you how hard you were swinging.

Alternatively, you could put something in the handle that tells you if you are over gripping the handle.

Second alternative, stick a watch on it to measure time. Job done.

In reply to Industrial design student:


A combined temperature sensor and GPS that detects if you are dry tooling and automatically posts your location to UKC, together with some comment about how 'torquing up these gritstone cracks is awesome'.

A vibration sensor in the handle then goes off with each reply, adding to the challenge of the climb.

Its been a long time since I did any proper ice climbing but this must be a non starter, no climber is going to trust a gadget over years of accumulated experience and observation of ice colour, texture and 'feel'. How is a sensor going to relay complex information back in a way that the climber is going to be able to retrieve it and make use of it? Can the messages be nuanced enough to convey all that can be gleaned from an experienced glance?

(imagine KIT from knight riders voice)

"well Michael your next swing will go into ice that will feel pretty good but is only actually an inch and a half thick and a torrent of freezing water will spew right down your cuff and make you swear"

or it comes up on your google glasses, which i have never worn, but all the ice climbing I have done has been with ordinary glasses and usually involves steaming up, getting slightly skewed and not quite on properly and climbing on with about 80% vision loss.

Somethings are greatly enhanced by electronic wizardry. Others are best hit hard with hammers and vigourously thrust into cracks.

In reply to SenzuBean:

There is one similar to what you are talking about - a folding ice axe. http://www.bergfreunde.de/climbing-technology-alpico-eispickel/

It would be irrelevant anyway as the OP wants an electronic gadget rather than a new design of the ice axe.

In reply to planetmarshall:



Even better, a sensor that detects if you are hitting ice thinner than 5mm, or rock, and if you are it sends 20,000 volts down the shaft.

In reply to Industrial design student:

Adding things to a axe seems like a bad idea.

The only thing i can think of is a sensor which can detect the thickness of the ice and indicate which screw you need to use. 4 or 5 LED's, preferably with colours matching the screws, each indicating which screw will not bottom out. 1 led indicating use the stubby 10cm, 2 led's the 13cm's (if 13cm will fit, so will a 10cm), etc.

But only usefull when it doesn't add to much weight and doens't effect the balance.

In reply to PPP:


Good find - however now what I'm interested in - I just want an ice-axe that can be different lengths - as when you're on easy ground, the longer the axe, the better for using as a walking pole, but when on dangerous ground - you want a short length so that your ice axe arrest is more effective (arresting is harder with a long ice axe, apparently). Also I would like it to telescope, as for example when you telescope out a vacuum cleaner pole - it can be quite satisfying that it has that series of clicks.

It is mostly irrelevant to OP, but how often does a thread about hypothetical ice axes come up? (I guess I have seen a few about people with CAD/CAM access who want to make one, so maybe not so rare actually...)

In reply to SenzuBean:


Seeing as the post is getting quite popular - it seems that it should exist!

In reply to Industrial design student:

Don't think it's been directly suggested yet; what about a swing counter, so you can compete to record the fewest whacks per route?

In reply to Industrial design student:

To be honest as others have said, your problem here is batteries getting killed by the cold. But also that you're putting a load of electronics in something which is being used to hit something repeatedly. Electronics and vibration/impact is not a good mix, nor is cold and batteries. Seriously, think of something else. How about incorporating electronics into a pack. I mean for starters, think about how awkward an avalanche beacon is to use. It should be in a zipped, padded shoulder pocket so it's easy to access. The batteries would be stowed in a pocket in the back system to keep them warm. The unit would also have a GPS and compass, altimeter and emergency messaging system like Spot built into it. Basically you'd have all your safety instruments incorporated into one system. It would also have a flexible solar panel built into the lid of the sack so you could be charging the batteries during the day so even if they were cold, they would still be OK. And when you make a mint from it, I'll expect my share

In reply to Industrial design student:

There's nothing electronic I can think of you could build into an axe that wouldn't make the axe worse and a watch or phone better were it built into that.


Good luck making that work!


Nope. Sorry.


Hand warmers are the only thing I can think of actually worth integrating but I'd use something like butane for the energy source rather than electronics or maybe some sort of phase change material (wax?) to store energy. The gas would probably work out lightest.

Another thought is a locator beacon so you can find them when dropped. One of those multi-axis MEMS accelerometers with a Zero-G drop detection output and a very loud piezo sounder. You could include a gimick like a placement counter using the accelerometer but it would be just that, a useless gimick

Personally I'd think about a different product to pimp up, good axes are simple and tough, not where you want added bling.

Good luck
jk

In reply to tjin:


That one might actually be doable and potentially useful. With an ultrasonic transducer built into the axe you could fire out a pulse or binary sequence then listen for the returns. Recovering and interpreting a useful return signal to gauge ice depth would probably be a bit of a signal processing nightmare but it should be there in the clutter you get back.

jk

In reply to Industrial design student:

That's were ABC watches come in... Seriously, ice axes need to be simple, sturdy and well balanced, that's all.

In reply to Industrial design student:

I really can't see how an electronic gadget would provide an upgrade to an ice axe. In the same way that you can't upgrade a hammer or a chisel with gadgetry, it really is just a tool at the end of day.

Perhaps the handwarmer or the ice depth gauge idea might make for an interesting theoretical project, but there is no way anything like this would ever go to the market. At the end of the day, this is a student project so is much more about you developing and demonstrating an understanding of industrial design and prototyping processes than it is to do with real world product development. Good luck with your project.

In reply to Industrial design student:

Toaster

In reply to Industrial design student:

a lightsaber, surely.

As for batteries I would suggest LiFePO4 cells. At -20C they loose only about 15% capacity. Quite amazing! I worked in R&D on a project for ship containers trackers years ago. Those were the batteries we used.

Still adding electronics to axe is a stupid idea considering how we abuse those!

In reply to Industrial design student:

I'd like to see some kind of electric horn or bell that I could sound to warn those in front of me that I'm 'climbing through', so get out of the bloody way.

In reply to beardy mike:

This pack would need to have a pretty serious harness on it if you want to have a decent chance of it ending up somewhere near where you are. I know airbag packs already do, but they're not necessarily something I'd want to climb in.

Otoh, having had a fall in February that drove my beacon into my ribs - painfully damaging both - I'd be open to the idea of a soft bendy beacon.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Well I know the regs for beacons stipulate they need to be beneath clothing, and really I'm not suggesting you'd have something as full on as an airbag type harness, but something inbetween which would ensure seperation of the bag from the climber. I must be possible - not that far from an air bag type system, but with lighter straps etc. I'm convinced it would work and be a major improvement. Might be a bit niche, unless you made it good enough that people stopped having a reason not to have one, much like helmets have...

In reply to Industrial design student:

I would like a wee LED numerical display in the back of the tool which is linked up to some sort of scoring system. the scoring system should in turn be connected to an accelerometor (# of swings) and also an altimeter. I should get points for minimizing the number of swings for a given amount of height gained. every so often i should level up.
hey maybe, there could be a ukc high score system. Ie. billy-joel climbed .5 gully and only swung each tool a total of 73 times!
Then, using that information we could connect together high-frequency swingers and low-frequency swingers. That way you can be steered clear of people who swing to often. In case you catch something.

In reply to Industrial design student:

Some sort of sensor, connected to a small loudspeaker that says "Come on, this really isn't in proper winter nick, is it"

In reply to Chris Harris:

You could just do that with a simple colour chart painted onto the axes.

In reply to Industrial design student:

I really think an altimeter would work! Those meters are very strong and I think they can deal with the forces of an ice axe if you place the altimeter near to the handel of the ice axe.

This way you can read your height easily without checking a separate altimeter. A nice feature would be to measure your height from a point of your choice, so you can read the height that you have climbed!

Good luck

In reply to Industrial design student:
How about a GPS transceiver, so when you lose/leave/abandon your ice axe en route, or once rescued you can locate all your kit. Therefore protecting it from those meanie weenies who think its there for the taking...........you know the ones!