UKC

Quickdraw back clipping?

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 Greasy Prusiks 19 May 2015
Looking at the 2015 climbing technology catalogue it has a page on back clipping when sports climbing-

http://www.climbingtechnology.com/en-US/catalogues.html (2015 climbing equipment page 11)

I understand scenarios 1 2 and 4 and have always avoided 2 and consequently 4. I don't understand how we're meant to avoid scenario 3 if the route requires swapping sides of a bolt whilst above it? Can anyone help explain?
 GridNorth 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

It can be a tough call if the next bolt is up to the right but the climbing takes you left before then going back right towards the bolt. IMO this is sometimes a consequence of bad bolting but at others it's just the nature of the rock. My question would be do you place the draw for the immediate move left or the general trend and that could depend on the difficulty of the move which of course you may not be able to predict. The orientation of the bracket can also cause problems. Ideally the bracket should allow for this and perhaps in a sense give a clue as to the direction the QD should be facing. The bottom line is that I think we all get it wrong at times but thinking about it I mostly orientate with the next bolt in mind unless there is an obvious and lengthy traverse in the other direction with potentially difficult moves.
In reply to ACollins:
Illustration 3 shows the dangers of mistaken back clipping (as is illustration 4) i.e. clipping the rope in the wrong way through the crab; the rope should be going up the rock and out through the front face of the crab opposite to what the illustration is showing.
Post edited at 11:23
 duchessofmalfi 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

Look carefully at the initial diagram of 3 and then 3.1

In this scenario the rope goes in front and out back of the lower clip (look at 1 it should go in back out front).

This causes the sling to twist (3.1) and flip the top clip -> danger.

So the way to avoid this is to clip the rope so it runs from the back to the front when the draw is hanging neatly.

In summary it is more to do with the way the rope is clipped incorrectly than sideways movement.
 jon 19 May 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

I think you're right that it's bad bolting if the route essentially requires a back clip.

> My question would be do you place the draw for the immediate move left or the general trend and that could depend on the difficulty of the move which of course you may not be able to predict

I'd like a second opinion on that too.
 jimtitt 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

Place two draws is the normal solution.
In reply to jimtitt:

Clipping back to back the same way you'd use snap gates to make up a substitute screw gate?
 climbwhenready 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

I thought that backclipping was where the rope to the climber runs out the rock-side of the crab, ie. 3 and 4? And 2 is the situation that you should try to avoid but isn't always avoidable, but is not as risky as a backclip.
 3 Names 19 May 2015
In reply to climbwhenready:

I think they are back clipped in both situations?
In reply to ACollins:

Apologies all I've been getting the diagrams muddled up. To clarify I understand 1 to be correct, 2 to be undertaken safe and 3 to be dangerous. So to me 3 is a back clip as the rope runs the wrong way through the draw l. The question I've got is how to avoid 2 if the route requires you to swap sides of the bolt whilst above it? Is the only solution to clip to draws back to back?
 jkarran 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

> Clipping back to back the same way you'd use snap gates to make up a substitute screw gate?

If they'll fit in the bolt without undue leverage that's pretty bulletproof. Locking krabs on crux bolts can be reassuring but they can also get hung up and snapped so they're not foolproof.

Even when you've done it all right you'll still occasionally get a quickdraw that releases the rope or escapes the bolt/gear, it's probably the most frequent gear failure I've experienced at one every few years. Be aware it can happen, keep eyes and ears open, consider lockers on critical placements, back stuff up where you can and listen out for the 'click' as the little bugger inexplicably drops your rope!

jk
 ByEek 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

Isn't it one of these scenarios where being aware is a good thing, but over thinking it achieves little. The diagrams indicate a worse case scenario. The chances of being in that situation, being in that situation and falling or being in that situation, falling and the krab unclipping are very very small.
 GridNorth 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:
The important thing is to always try and achieve diagram 1. Unfortunately that situation may only be valid for a few feet or several moves but you may then be forced into climbing in the other direction and creating diagram 2 and it is not always possible to anticipate that in advance. It's not something I would get too worked up about unless it was a long, long way to the next bolt.
Post edited at 12:06
 jkarran 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

> The question I've got is how to avoid 2 if the route requires you to swap sides of the bolt whilst above it? Is the only solution to clip to draws back to back?

Climbing involves risk and 9 times out of 10 you might choose to take that one. Or you could do something to mitigate it especially if you're expecting to fall frequently onto that bolt: locking quickdraw, double back-back quickdraw, sling the bolt (smooth staple only) and put a locking krab on the rope, stick clip the next bolt with a long 'draw so you can clip before heading back the 'wrong' way.

jk
 summo 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

if a runner is critical or you are concerned, just rotate the krab. It's quick and easy, with no extra work for the second.
 GridNorth 19 May 2015
In reply to summo:

But you cannot do that once you are above it. I would be interested to hear what most climbers do in this situation. Orientate for the next bolt or orientate for the next move assuming that the next section is not easy. Personally if the next moves look tricky I orientate for the move, if it looks easy I orientate for the next bolt.
 fatbuoybazza 19 May 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

"I would be interested to hear what most climbers do in this situation"

Same as Jim's reply at 11:32, two draws, back to back, done this many times when unsure if the line may wander around.

 john_mx 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

What page is it on please?

Thank you.
 GridNorth 19 May 2015
In reply to fatbuoybazza:

On many, quite possibly most, bolts with a bracket it's not possible to get two krabs in. Are you saying you would clip into the first krab with the second draw?
In reply to john_mx:

Page 11
 jimtitt 19 May 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> On many, quite possibly most, bolts with a bracket it's not possible to get two krabs in.

It has been a requirement for EN959 that the hanger takes two karabiners since 1996, if they don´t meet that standard one has more to worry about than back clipping.
 Michael Gordon 19 May 2015
In reply to climbwhenready:

> I thought that backclipping was where the rope to the climber runs out the rock-side of the crab, ie. 3 and 4? And 2 is the situation that you should try to avoid but isn't always avoidable, but is not as risky as a backclip.

Correct. Back-clipping is scenarios 3 and 4. Scenario 4 is the worst and the one usually used to show the dangers of back-clipping. Scenario 3 is not quite as bad as the rope is going away from the gate but this may be more due to luck than anything else and back-clipping is so easy to avoid that it should not occur.

Scenario 2 is usually fine but the krab can be rotated if necessary. If the climbing goes left then back right then it is obviously a judgement call! I don't think one can necessarily blame who-ever bolted the route as the left then back right may be a difficult sequence which wouldn't make sense to clip from. In any case the scenarios are just as applicable to trad routes.
 AlanLittle 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

> The question I've got is how to avoid 2 if the route requires you to swap sides of the bolt whilst above it? Is the only solution to clip to draws back to back?

The usual "solution" is to accept that you're engaged in an activity involving a certain inevitable level of risk and ambiguity, and that the probability of this particular risk actually biting you is pretty low. As are its consequences on a normal sport route if there's more than one bolt between you and the ground.

If otoh the bolt in question is the only one between you and getting hurt, then you might consider screwgates, two quickdraws etc. as already discussed.

 fatbuoybazza 19 May 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Can't think that I've ever had a problem fitting two draws into a hanger, either on the petzl type, on staples or any other types.
It's not something I do often, perhaps half a dozen times out of hundreds of routes. If I can't fit two draws in one hanger, I'd either clip a screwgate directly to the bolt or swap out the bottom crab on the draw for a screwgate.
 GridNorth 19 May 2015
In reply to jimtitt:

That may well be the case with the manufacturing but I find it hard to believe that there has been any significant replacement program and who would police that? I did a very recent new route in Kalymnos a few weeks ago and you would not have been able to get two krabs in the bracket hole on any of the bolts on that route and many others for that matter. My understanding is that Kalymnos is one of the better places when it comes to attempting to impose some control.
 Robert Durran 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

I always thought back clipping was something completely different!
 GridNorth 19 May 2015
In reply to fatbuoybazza:
Where have you climbed? Across Europe there is a mish mash of bolts and brackets and to the best of my knowledge there has not been any significant retro fitting. If it was obvious that there was a conflict I too would consider using a screwgate but to be honest I don't think I have ever done so and when I think about it I don't see many Sports climbers even carrying one.

I think there is a danger of over egging the threat to be honest. yes it's a potential hazard but usually when you have spotted that you have got it wrong you are usually within touching distance of the next bolt.
Post edited at 13:42
 fatbuoybazza 19 May 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

Germany, France, Spain, Sweden, Belgium, England, Scotland. True, there are a mish mash of eye bolt and hanger types(I've even seen Petzl hangers that looked ok from below, but were rotten on the top!). Like I've said above, it's not often that I've felt the need to double up on the draws but very occasionally I do.
I can't particularly recall when I have used a screwgate in this kind of situation, as I know I've used screwgates when I've ran out of quickdraws, but I would if I needed to. You don't carry any screwgates sport climbing?, I'll usually take two or three, one on the end of the sling for securing at the lower off and a couple for just incase!.

I'd say in the times I've felt the need to double up, I've spotted this from being below or level with the bolt, reading that the route trickles left a bit, or right a bit, if I'm in doubt, I'll double it up, to me it's all part of reading, or trying to read the route as you climb it.
 jimtitt 19 May 2015
In reply to GridNorth:

> That may well be the case with the manufacturing but I find it hard to believe that there has been any significant replacement program and who would police that? I did a very recent new route in Kalymnos a few weeks ago and you would not have been able to get two krabs in the bracket hole on any of the bolts on that route and many others for that matter. My understanding is that Kalymnos is one of the better places when it comes to attempting to impose some control.

Ah well, the standard calls for the hole to take two metal bars 15 and 11mm in diameter, the fact that some modern karabiners are so fat or wierd shaped you can´t get them in is a problem created by the karabiner companies!
 PPP 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

I guess the easiest solution would be to carry one or two quickdraws with Edelrid Pure Slider carabiners. Or a flexible and longer quickdraw? Like DMM 25cm Spectre quickdraw, I can't see that being able to lift the carabiner at the bolt end.

To be honest, I wouldn't really worry about it and lots of sport climbers do not care about it. Two of my mates clipped to a hanger which was completely loose - I managed to unscrew it with hands without weighting the rope. It was second bolt and it gave me a fright, but people who don't notice that would not worry about that either...
 whenry 19 May 2015
In reply to ACollins:

Surely that's the perfect place to use one of those horrendously awkward Grivel twin gate jobs

Back to back quickdraws do the job for me, but I wouldn't say I feel the need more than once or twice a year. It's normally reasonably obvious from reaching distance of the bolt whether the line moves about much in relation to the next bolt, and whether I'm likely to be able to do the move or not.
 AlanLittle 19 May 2015
In reply to PPP:

> I guess the easiest solution would be to carry one or two quickdraws with Edelrid Pure Slider carabiners.

I just bought one, but really only for use where there's only a single crucial bolt. Not too bothered about situations where the risk is just falling an extra two metres.

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