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Hi guys I was wondering if anybody knows how to get into route setting at climbing walls as I think I would throughly enjoy it.
Any tips from previous route setters would be great
Thanks
Adam
Any tips from previous route setters would be great
Thanks
Adam
In reply to afearn91:
For those that travel round from wall to wall and make a living from it you generally have to be a pretty good climber, at least 7c though most of those that set in Sheffield are considerably better than that. It's also hard work, sitting in a harness most of the day, hauling up bags of holds etc. And you'll be expected to set maybe 9 routes in a day too. You set your own rate but if your routes are not liked by a particular wall you probably won't get work again with them.
Probably starting out it would be good to get some experience informally somehow to see how you get on. When I lived in the states years ago the local wall let certain climbers come and set routes one morning per week in exchange for a free pass. Not sure how easy that would be over here now as route setting seems pretty sown up but I suppose that very much depends on which part of the country you're in and which walls you approach.
For those that travel round from wall to wall and make a living from it you generally have to be a pretty good climber, at least 7c though most of those that set in Sheffield are considerably better than that. It's also hard work, sitting in a harness most of the day, hauling up bags of holds etc. And you'll be expected to set maybe 9 routes in a day too. You set your own rate but if your routes are not liked by a particular wall you probably won't get work again with them.
Probably starting out it would be good to get some experience informally somehow to see how you get on. When I lived in the states years ago the local wall let certain climbers come and set routes one morning per week in exchange for a free pass. Not sure how easy that would be over here now as route setting seems pretty sown up but I suppose that very much depends on which part of the country you're in and which walls you approach.
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In reply to I like climbing:
Whilst I agree with you that you certainly don't need to climb 7c, that's not quite what he said.
IME, in house or local setters can probably get away with much less (7a on a VERY good day!) but the itinerant setters (Yann Geneaux, Liam Halsey, Trickey, Gaz etc. etc. ) will certainly need to climb at this level as they will be setting at this level.
Whilst I agree with you that you certainly don't need to climb 7c, that's not quite what he said.
IME, in house or local setters can probably get away with much less (7a on a VERY good day!) but the itinerant setters (Yann Geneaux, Liam Halsey, Trickey, Gaz etc. etc. ) will certainly need to climb at this level as they will be setting at this level.
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In reply to afearn91:
I personally agree that you need to climb a grade if you want a shot at setting it. How are you supposed to know what 8a feels like if you've only climbed 6c?
I personally agree that you need to climb a grade if you want a shot at setting it. How are you supposed to know what 8a feels like if you've only climbed 6c?
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In reply to MischaHY:
I'd agree with that, but would also add that just because you can climb grade 'X', that doesn't mean to say you can set a route at grade 'X-n'. Ratho has recently suffered from a visiting setter <v strong / famous climber> putting up some new routes, many of which have received complaints.
And I don't think it's simply a matter of the grading being out, rather than the setting - the routes in question just have very cruxy moves that are completely outwith the character (and grade) of the rest of the route. To my mind, that's just poor setting.
I'd agree with that, but would also add that just because you can climb grade 'X', that doesn't mean to say you can set a route at grade 'X-n'. Ratho has recently suffered from a visiting setter <v strong / famous climber> putting up some new routes, many of which have received complaints.
And I don't think it's simply a matter of the grading being out, rather than the setting - the routes in question just have very cruxy moves that are completely outwith the character (and grade) of the rest of the route. To my mind, that's just poor setting.
In reply to Fraser:
Good point. Setters need an awareness of actual grade difficulty and be able to set consistently at a specific grade.
Good point. Setters need an awareness of actual grade difficulty and be able to set consistently at a specific grade.
In reply to afearn91:
If you want to making a living doing it and travel around, setting for competitions etc you need to be a pretty accomplished climber. Most folks who do this have an impressive climbing CV.
If you however just get a job at a climbing wall this is less of an issue. You will obviously have to do all the other stuff that that job entails - serving at the till, cleaning, hoovering up chalk dust, etc.
Setting routes requires some rope skills and is quite physical. Setting boulder problems is somewhat easier, this can often be done off a ladder.
A way in might be to speak to you local bouldering wall manager and offer to have a go at setting a problem or two. If you are good at it (not everyone is) then think about taking things further.
If you want to making a living doing it and travel around, setting for competitions etc you need to be a pretty accomplished climber. Most folks who do this have an impressive climbing CV.
If you however just get a job at a climbing wall this is less of an issue. You will obviously have to do all the other stuff that that job entails - serving at the till, cleaning, hoovering up chalk dust, etc.
Setting routes requires some rope skills and is quite physical. Setting boulder problems is somewhat easier, this can often be done off a ladder.
A way in might be to speak to you local bouldering wall manager and offer to have a go at setting a problem or two. If you are good at it (not everyone is) then think about taking things further.
In reply to afearn91:
What people have said above is true, about needing to be able to climb harder than the grade that you are setting and even then it must be no simple task because so many walls have bad setting.
There are many walls where anything below 6 is a ladder of jugs which is really boring. Then the sixes just just get progressively smaller holds and all the 7s are steep with progressively smaller holds. It is a real skill to get technical moves into a climb, without changing the grade.
I know that at a bouldering wall and a routes wall that I frequent, the less experienced setters are only allowed to set the easier stuff, so being good at that may be a way of getting a foot in the door. If you want an example of good easier bouldering, I would recommend the Climbing Works. They usually have one Font 4 to 4+ circuit which is really interesting.
Cake
What people have said above is true, about needing to be able to climb harder than the grade that you are setting and even then it must be no simple task because so many walls have bad setting.
There are many walls where anything below 6 is a ladder of jugs which is really boring. Then the sixes just just get progressively smaller holds and all the 7s are steep with progressively smaller holds. It is a real skill to get technical moves into a climb, without changing the grade.
I know that at a bouldering wall and a routes wall that I frequent, the less experienced setters are only allowed to set the easier stuff, so being good at that may be a way of getting a foot in the door. If you want an example of good easier bouldering, I would recommend the Climbing Works. They usually have one Font 4 to 4+ circuit which is really interesting.
Cake
In reply to afearn91:
Slightly off topic, but do many walls use visit route-setters as a matter of course? My vague understanding of my usual wall (Alien Rock) was that the routes were usually set by the staff, this is how they fill their time in quiet periods (e.g. before 4pm Mon-Fri). I'd always assumed that most walls did this.
Slightly off topic, but do many walls use visit route-setters as a matter of course? My vague understanding of my usual wall (Alien Rock) was that the routes were usually set by the staff, this is how they fill their time in quiet periods (e.g. before 4pm Mon-Fri). I'd always assumed that most walls did this.
In reply to mav:
Nope, it's pretty rare to use just staff to set amoung the proper dedicated centres.
Many have one or two of the really good dedicated setters (Percy Bishtoon, Rob Napier, Yann Genoux, Ben West etc) on staff or regular contract but those guys will also be setting elsewhere in the UK or internationally as well in between times
Nope, it's pretty rare to use just staff to set amoung the proper dedicated centres.
Many have one or two of the really good dedicated setters (Percy Bishtoon, Rob Napier, Yann Genoux, Ben West etc) on staff or regular contract but those guys will also be setting elsewhere in the UK or internationally as well in between times
In reply to mav:
My guess is that many walls do this. The result? Mediocre route setting. I climb rarely on walls but I can very rapidly tell whether routes have been set by a professional route setter or... probably the staff. Boulder/route setting is a skill. It's certainly not a skill I have (or ever will have) but it's a skill I appreciate probably because, for many years, I've been able to use a private facility created by the doyen of route setters.
I'm not knocking the staff; they do their best. But, in my opinion, on many walls, their time would be better employed giving key holds on established routes a rough scrub to take off some of the caked chalk.
Mick
My guess is that many walls do this. The result? Mediocre route setting. I climb rarely on walls but I can very rapidly tell whether routes have been set by a professional route setter or... probably the staff. Boulder/route setting is a skill. It's certainly not a skill I have (or ever will have) but it's a skill I appreciate probably because, for many years, I've been able to use a private facility created by the doyen of route setters.
I'm not knocking the staff; they do their best. But, in my opinion, on many walls, their time would be better employed giving key holds on established routes a rough scrub to take off some of the caked chalk.
Mick
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In reply to chuffer:
Is there perhaps a two-tier system whereby the better known places will use dedicated route setters and the lesser known ones won't?
Mick
> Nope, it's pretty rare to use just staff to set amoung the proper dedicated centres.
Is there perhaps a two-tier system whereby the better known places will use dedicated route setters and the lesser known ones won't?
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
Yes, generally at Ratho the staff set pretty consistently great routes. Visiting setters seem very hit and miss, but are fortunately rare. Comp routes are often disappointing.
> My guess is that many walls do this. The result? Mediocre route setting. I climb rarely on walls but I can very rapidly tell whether routes have been set by a professional route setter or... probably the staff.
Yes, generally at Ratho the staff set pretty consistently great routes. Visiting setters seem very hit and miss, but are fortunately rare. Comp routes are often disappointing.
In reply to Robert Durran:
which is, I think, the diametric opposite of Mick's opinion, who seems to argue that visiting route setters are better than staff. Personally, the more I think about it, the advantage of having visiting route-setters is that they would add variety. I used to occasionally use a bouldering wall in London when visiting with work, and a few of their problems were set by 'Gaz'. They weren't noticeably better or worse than the others, certainly no better than a lot of the problems I was used to in Edinburgh, but the style was slightly different. The biggest limitation most route setters have is imagination - so many have their own trademarks (using undercuts for a crux move, a tendency to set long moves, etc. There are certainly times in the past where I've been half-way up a new route at the wall and known exactly which person set it.
which is, I think, the diametric opposite of Mick's opinion, who seems to argue that visiting route setters are better than staff. Personally, the more I think about it, the advantage of having visiting route-setters is that they would add variety. I used to occasionally use a bouldering wall in London when visiting with work, and a few of their problems were set by 'Gaz'. They weren't noticeably better or worse than the others, certainly no better than a lot of the problems I was used to in Edinburgh, but the style was slightly different. The biggest limitation most route setters have is imagination - so many have their own trademarks (using undercuts for a crux move, a tendency to set long moves, etc. There are certainly times in the past where I've been half-way up a new route at the wall and known exactly which person set it.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
It's certainly nice to be proved wrong in this instance! Whoever's doing it, route setting seems an art which can't somehow be picked up overnight. But, re the OP, we've all got to start somewhere. Only time (and getting given a few chances) will tell whether he's cut out for it. I hope he is.
Mick
> Yes, generally at Ratho the staff set pretty consistently great routes.
It's certainly nice to be proved wrong in this instance! Whoever's doing it, route setting seems an art which can't somehow be picked up overnight. But, re the OP, we've all got to start somewhere. Only time (and getting given a few chances) will tell whether he's cut out for it. I hope he is.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
I don't think it is an exaggeration to say it's an art. The regular in house setters at Ratho certainly have their individual styles, almost like different rock types. And some are definitely more onsightable than others! I do get the impression that some setters are naturals though, getting the knack of producing satisfying routes very quickly.
> Whoever's doing it, route setting seems an art which can't somehow be picked up overnight.
I don't think it is an exaggeration to say it's an art. The regular in house setters at Ratho certainly have their individual styles, almost like different rock types. And some are definitely more onsightable than others! I do get the impression that some setters are naturals though, getting the knack of producing satisfying routes very quickly.
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In reply to Fraser:
In fairness I believe these routes were possibly just a blip on that setters record...
Possibly also in the case of the Tan 6b+ a lack of holds to do the intended grade justice might have been a contributory factor. Of course just biting the bullet and saying sorry guys its actually 6c+ would have ended most of the criticism.
As a very experienced setter myself I guess I might be making excuses here for the setter in question but sometimes hold availability scuppers a lot of plans...!
In fairness I believe these routes were possibly just a blip on that setters record...
Possibly also in the case of the Tan 6b+ a lack of holds to do the intended grade justice might have been a contributory factor. Of course just biting the bullet and saying sorry guys its actually 6c+ would have ended most of the criticism.
As a very experienced setter myself I guess I might be making excuses here for the setter in question but sometimes hold availability scuppers a lot of plans...!
In reply to Mick Ward:
"I climb rarely on walls but I can very rapidly tell whether routes have been set by a professional route setter or... probably the staff."
If you rarely climb on walls then you must be incredibly perceptive or else the non professionals you have encountered must just be starting out on the long road to learning their craft. An experienced amateur should produce routes every bit as good as a professional.
However something I have seen happening is "professionals" get first pick of the available holds, so the best and most interesting holds get snapped up whilst the old ones that everyone has seen a million times get left for the non-pro.
Mind you a good setter should still be able to make the best of these.
"But, in my opinion, on many walls, their time would be better employed giving key holds on established routes a rough scrub to take off some of the caked chalk."
This unfortunately shows a definite lack of perception.
By the time holds get "caked" with rubber and chalk they are beyond redemption and the route needs to come down.
Besides who wants all that shit getting into your lungs with brushing.
"I climb rarely on walls but I can very rapidly tell whether routes have been set by a professional route setter or... probably the staff."
If you rarely climb on walls then you must be incredibly perceptive or else the non professionals you have encountered must just be starting out on the long road to learning their craft. An experienced amateur should produce routes every bit as good as a professional.
However something I have seen happening is "professionals" get first pick of the available holds, so the best and most interesting holds get snapped up whilst the old ones that everyone has seen a million times get left for the non-pro.
Mind you a good setter should still be able to make the best of these.
"But, in my opinion, on many walls, their time would be better employed giving key holds on established routes a rough scrub to take off some of the caked chalk."
This unfortunately shows a definite lack of perception.
By the time holds get "caked" with rubber and chalk they are beyond redemption and the route needs to come down.
Besides who wants all that shit getting into your lungs with brushing.
In reply to afearn91:
From my perspective the secret is variation. I climb at the Manchester walls quite a bit and Awesome in Stockport use staff and visiting route setters and they have a nice variation of route without any one style dominating.
MCC on the other hand have virtually all their routes by one setter. They're not bad routes by any means, but there is a certain style to them and you can feel different moves repeated route after route, albeit on different sized holds depending on grade. I find that a bit dull - climbing indoors isn't the "real thing" for me so I'd like it to be as interesting and varied as possible!
From my perspective the secret is variation. I climb at the Manchester walls quite a bit and Awesome in Stockport use staff and visiting route setters and they have a nice variation of route without any one style dominating.
MCC on the other hand have virtually all their routes by one setter. They're not bad routes by any means, but there is a certain style to them and you can feel different moves repeated route after route, albeit on different sized holds depending on grade. I find that a bit dull - climbing indoors isn't the "real thing" for me so I'd like it to be as interesting and varied as possible!
In reply to sheppy:
Yes, perhaps, but it's just that having several such blips on the one visit seems a bit coincidental.
Oh, all the right holds are there on the routes - just not in the right order! (to paraphrase that famous musical quote)
> In fairness I believe these routes were possibly just a blip on that setters record...
Yes, perhaps, but it's just that having several such blips on the one visit seems a bit coincidental.
> ....sometimes hold availability scuppers a lot of plans...!
Oh, all the right holds are there on the routes - just not in the right order! (to paraphrase that famous musical quote)
Post edited at 11:19
In reply to afearn91:
not a route setter, just a general plea - please remember, the average woman is shorter than the average bloke. so just because a reach feels fine to a 'not tall' bloke doesnt mean its fine for an average or small woman.
not a route setter, just a general plea - please remember, the average woman is shorter than the average bloke. so just because a reach feels fine to a 'not tall' bloke doesnt mean its fine for an average or small woman.
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In reply to sheppy:
Well, I'm certainly not incredibly perceptive, that's for sure. Although I rarely climb on walls now, in the past, I've climbed on 'em several times a week, for years.
Was talking to a very highly regarded professional routesetter a day or so ago. He's got I'm guessing about 20 years continuous experience of routesetting - and he sets with whom I'm guessing are the elite of routesetters. So he'll have an almost unrivalled database of expertise. Hard to imagine any amateur getting remotely close.
Just as well I never claimed to be perceptive! My experience is that such routes stay up for weeks, if not months past their sell-by date. Yes, far, far better to take 'em down. But, if that ain't going to happen, surely better to give 'em a rough scrub before they're buggered. I've probably had far more shit in my lungs from drilling < cough, cough >
Anyway, must away - the rock calls.
Mick
> If you rarely climb on walls then you must be incredibly perceptive or else the non professionals you have encountered must just be starting out on the long road to learning their craft. An experienced amateur should produce routes every bit as good as a professional.
Well, I'm certainly not incredibly perceptive, that's for sure. Although I rarely climb on walls now, in the past, I've climbed on 'em several times a week, for years.
Was talking to a very highly regarded professional routesetter a day or so ago. He's got I'm guessing about 20 years continuous experience of routesetting - and he sets with whom I'm guessing are the elite of routesetters. So he'll have an almost unrivalled database of expertise. Hard to imagine any amateur getting remotely close.
> "But, in my opinion, on many walls, their time would be better employed giving key holds on established routes a rough scrub to take off some of the caked chalk."
> This unfortunately shows a definite lack of perception.
> By the time holds get "caked" with rubber and chalk they are beyond redemption and the route needs to come down.
> Besides who wants all that shit getting into your lungs with brushing.
Just as well I never claimed to be perceptive! My experience is that such routes stay up for weeks, if not months past their sell-by date. Yes, far, far better to take 'em down. But, if that ain't going to happen, surely better to give 'em a rough scrub before they're buggered. I've probably had far more shit in my lungs from drilling < cough, cough >
Anyway, must away - the rock calls.
Mick
In reply to pebbles:
Jain Kim is 5'0", Hazel Findlay comes in at 5'2", and Ramon Puigblanque (and Don Whilans) at 5'3".
If you have trouble reaching stuff, it's probably not the route causing the problem.
> not a route setter, just a general plea - please remember, the average woman is shorter than the average bloke. so just because a reach feels fine to a 'not tall' bloke doesnt mean its fine for an average or small woman.
Jain Kim is 5'0", Hazel Findlay comes in at 5'2", and Ramon Puigblanque (and Don Whilans) at 5'3".
If you have trouble reaching stuff, it's probably not the route causing the problem.
Post edited at 11:43
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In reply to Mick Ward:
"I've probably had far more shit in my lungs from drilling < cough, cough >"
I can sympathise there Mick...
"I've probably had far more shit in my lungs from drilling < cough, cough >"
I can sympathise there Mick...
In reply to BarrySW19:
Outdoors where you can often go around stuff, or use intermediate hand or foot holds, this is less true.
Indoors routes can be totally height-dependent.
My experience is that 'tall' routesetters are aware they have a long reach and adjust accordingly, while 'short' (usually around 5' 8" i.e. not short!) routesetters just assume 'I can reach it so everyone can' (in my case the 'tall' routesetters are also the more experienced which biases things a bit). There are routes I climb which are jug to jug to jug (easy grades, 6a or so) but every move at full stretch for me to do statically (easily) at 5' 7" (I also recognise this is probably bad setting that every move is the same length). My shorter friends struggle because they can't do the moves they way they were set - they have to do either a considerably harder variation or do everything dynamically where the route wasn't intended to be dynamic. I find routes where you are supposed to move dynamically from one hold to another (not dynoing, just dynamically) are much less height-dependent - you just have to go a bit further! So perhaps this is more of a problem at the lower grades...
PS in case people know my local wall, I am not saying all the tall routesetters are good and all the short routesetters are bad - because this is not true!
Outdoors where you can often go around stuff, or use intermediate hand or foot holds, this is less true.
Indoors routes can be totally height-dependent.
My experience is that 'tall' routesetters are aware they have a long reach and adjust accordingly, while 'short' (usually around 5' 8" i.e. not short!) routesetters just assume 'I can reach it so everyone can' (in my case the 'tall' routesetters are also the more experienced which biases things a bit). There are routes I climb which are jug to jug to jug (easy grades, 6a or so) but every move at full stretch for me to do statically (easily) at 5' 7" (I also recognise this is probably bad setting that every move is the same length). My shorter friends struggle because they can't do the moves they way they were set - they have to do either a considerably harder variation or do everything dynamically where the route wasn't intended to be dynamic. I find routes where you are supposed to move dynamically from one hold to another (not dynoing, just dynamically) are much less height-dependent - you just have to go a bit further! So perhaps this is more of a problem at the lower grades...
PS in case people know my local wall, I am not saying all the tall routesetters are good and all the short routesetters are bad - because this is not true!
Post edited at 12:23
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In reply to BarrySW19:
thats a typical but irritating and i put it to you facile response. Hazel Findlay is a brilliant small climber, a is Lynn Hill. However that proves sod all other than that a really good small climber may be able to find other ways past a problem that will be a stopper for most other climbers of that height.Plus the fact that Hazel Findlay can climb routes of 8a or E silly has no bearing whatsoever on whether she can climb a particular route with a single very long reach that fred put up down her local climbing wall.
also, if you read Lynn Hills book, you'll find she sometimes found indoor routes frustrating because whereas she could usually find intermediate holds outside, she was sometimes stopped in her tracks by reachy indoor routes
> Jain Kim is 5'0", Hazel Findlay comes in at 5'2", and Ramon Puigblanque (and Don Whilans) at 5'3".
> If you have trouble reaching stuff, it's probably not the route causing the problem.
thats a typical but irritating and i put it to you facile response. Hazel Findlay is a brilliant small climber, a is Lynn Hill. However that proves sod all other than that a really good small climber may be able to find other ways past a problem that will be a stopper for most other climbers of that height.Plus the fact that Hazel Findlay can climb routes of 8a or E silly has no bearing whatsoever on whether she can climb a particular route with a single very long reach that fred put up down her local climbing wall.
also, if you read Lynn Hills book, you'll find she sometimes found indoor routes frustrating because whereas she could usually find intermediate holds outside, she was sometimes stopped in her tracks by reachy indoor routes
Post edited at 12:31
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In reply to pebbles:
Fine, you want to make excuses - feel free; it's your climbing. But, in my time climbing perhaps 1000 different indoor routes I can only think of one that was truly beyond my 5'6" reach (and even that could probably have been dyno'd if I'd been prepared to commit to it).
Sure, sometimes routes might be a few grades harder for shorter climbers but unless you're obsessed with the number, who cares? Many routes are also a few grades harder for spindly limbed climbers - should we ask route setters to take account of them too when setting rock-overs?
> thats a typical but irritating and i put it to you facile response.
Fine, you want to make excuses - feel free; it's your climbing. But, in my time climbing perhaps 1000 different indoor routes I can only think of one that was truly beyond my 5'6" reach (and even that could probably have been dyno'd if I'd been prepared to commit to it).
Sure, sometimes routes might be a few grades harder for shorter climbers but unless you're obsessed with the number, who cares? Many routes are also a few grades harder for spindly limbed climbers - should we ask route setters to take account of them too when setting rock-overs?
Post edited at 12:55
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In reply to pebbles:
My bugbear is when I take the kids. My ten year old can climb 6a. Quite often, the hardest bit on a route for her is reaching the first handhold.
Mind you it was worse when she was eight.
My bugbear is when I take the kids. My ten year old can climb 6a. Quite often, the hardest bit on a route for her is reaching the first handhold.
Mind you it was worse when she was eight.
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In reply to BarrySW19:
People care because indoor routes are deliberately set to give interesting challenges with consistent, flowing climbing, and this is part of what you pay for when you go to the wall. As someone who's about 5'10", if I came across a route that was a boring jug ladder with a stopper dyno halfway up then I'd think the setting was pretty crap, and if it happened regularly at one wall then I'd start looking for somewhere else to climb. I don't see why someone who's 5'2" should feel any differently.
> Fine, you want to make excuses - feel free; it's your climbing. But, in my time climbing perhaps 1000 different indoor routes I can only think of one that was truly beyond my 5'6" reach (and even that could probably have been dyno'd if I'd been prepared to commit to it).
> Sure, sometimes routes might be a few grades harder for shorter climbers but unless you're obsessed with the number, who cares?
People care because indoor routes are deliberately set to give interesting challenges with consistent, flowing climbing, and this is part of what you pay for when you go to the wall. As someone who's about 5'10", if I came across a route that was a boring jug ladder with a stopper dyno halfway up then I'd think the setting was pretty crap, and if it happened regularly at one wall then I'd start looking for somewhere else to climb. I don't see why someone who's 5'2" should feel any differently.
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In reply to BarrySW19:
You are 1" shorter than the average UK person; hardly short.
> Fine, you want to make excuses - feel free; it's your climbing. But, in my time climbing perhaps 1000 different indoor routes I can only think of one that was truly beyond my 5'6" reach (and even that could probably have been dyno'd if I'd been prepared to commit to it).
You are 1" shorter than the average UK person; hardly short.
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