UKC

Auto-belays freak me out to the point that I'm likely to down climb rather than let go.
Talking about this with a non-climber friend he suggested that there must be a failsafe designed in, one that would lock up rather than drop me.
Does anyone know if that's the case? It doesn't matter how many people I see using them I still have this nagging doubt.

In reply to MaxJEF:

Of course they can fail,so can your rope or your nut or your cam or the rock you've placed your protection in etc but it's really unlikely as they're checked and serviced regularly probably a lot more than anyone checks their own gear.any way the best way to overcome your fear is to climb a route slightly above your comfort zone at the end of a session until you drop off failing that what I normally tell people to do is climb about 6ft and drop off then progress slightly higher until your confident enough to do it from the top.your not alone a lot of people feel the same way when they first start using them

In reply to Wsdconst:


Bear in mind some of them will not lock up till you've dropped about 6ft, so I'd suggest starting a bit higher.

In reply to Marek:

Wise words, decking would not help!

In reply to MaxJEF:
http://www.climbingbusinessjournal.com/auto-belays-get-safer-with-barriers/

It appears that forgetting to clip in is the biggest risk. Human error is more of a problem than machinery.

In reply to Marek:

This is clearly not correct

In reply to MaxJEF:

I'm a right wuss - I yelped first time I let go on one! I do laps on them now and love 'em, time's your own, and I can work till I drop. Being a wuss I check I'm straight and my clip before dropping. I check I'm straight as there's another route next door so pendulum is embarassing, I check my clip just to feel happy. It's a pleasant part of the process, a brief rest, and some time to fiddle for a little lump of chalk to keep tally.

In reply to MaxJEF:

As long as you manage to attach yourself correctly*, they're statistically much safer than a meatsack belayer.

IIRC the one that failed open at the Westway dropping someone was the first time that model had ever done so worldwide. They recalled them and modified the design to prevent the same fail happening again. If you hang around the gym long enough, you'll see plenty of people hitting the deck because of belayer error, mostly with fairly inexperienced belayers but occasionally not. We can all make mistakes.

* one problem is of course the lack of a buddy check

In reply to MaxJEF:

As others have said, the danger is complacency check and double check your clip in. A good friend had been happily training, unclipped, got distracted talking to friend, got back on, climbed to the top and let go, and decked as a result.

They are definitely a bit freaky, I think its because you have a moment of free fall you don't get with a rope before the brake takes effect, and because the belay is direct there is no rope drag/friction to remind you of the rope/wire.

I have to say although I do use them at times, I'm not a fan as I don't like the sensation much or repetitiveness going up the same angle, wall section/routes. that and I like the social aspect of discussing routes etc, plus I prefer leading.

In reply to Marek:

If an auto belay is letting you drop 6ft it's defective as an unprotected fall from this height could cause serious injury if you hit the floor.they should start to brake almost immediately.where are these auto belays that let you drop 6ft ??

In reply to MaxJEF:

Ignore marek he's obviously never used an auto belay, what happens then if you fall before you reach six foot? I've seen lots of people fall lower than that but never seen an auto belay let someone deck.sometimes ukc is less about helping people and more about correcting people badly.anyway have you managed to overcome the FEAR of the dreaded auto belay yet ??

In reply to MaxJEF:

It may help you to use safety rope, in conjunction with the auto belay?( if there is the means to attach it).
Then when you are ready to drop, have slack in the safety the auto belay will hold you but you know there is a back up.
It may give you the confidence to use an auto belay.
Same principle we use when instructing novice lead climbing.
Good luck

In reply to Wsdconst:

A 6ft drop onto the type of static rope used in autobelayers will cause you serious injury without hitting the floor. The drop is half a metre at most, though it feels more.
So some people find it scary? Well, I always thought climbing was meant to be scary.

In reply to Andy Long:

Yeah I'd agree it might feel abit longer than it is but it doesn't feel like 6ft and yeah static rope/webbing wouldn't be very kind to you after such a fall.i think there would be loads of climbers laid at the bottom of the autos moaning loudly.its the usual ukc thing though if you post something then it's almost certain someone will try to correct you whether you're right of not.

In reply to Wsdconst:

The older 'flying clutch' type auto-belays needed about 4ft to get up to full friction. After a number of incidents in the USA (and Australia) these were withdrawn. A different manufacturer was found who makes the current ones which, I believe use electro/magnetic induction to create a braking affect.
I have climbed on both. The first ones scared me to death as even 4 ft on a 30ft wall seems a lot. With the new ones the brake effect starts immediately and is fully operational after about a foot, but I still have the residual fear just as I let go at the top.
The biggest danger has always been user error. Forgetting to clip in! I clip, check, start to climb, check again at 6 to 8 ft, and have made this a kind if OCD thing. At the top I get directly below the device, cringe and let go.
They are great for doing laps for endurance without boring your belayer to death.
I have never been dropped by an auto-belayer. I wish I could say the same about some of my human belayers.

In reply to MaxJEF:

and... just like flying and alton towers scary rides, the drive there is way more dangerous

In reply to MaxJEF:

After clipping in I like to step up on the first foothold and come off again as a substitute for a buddy check. It only takes a second.

In reply to Ciro:

That was a 'Redpoint' auto-belay. They recalled them and tried to modify the design, but in the end the manufacturer decided they couldn't be fixed. They'd have had to re-design the whole thing from scratch and they just didn't think it was a big enough market to be worth it, so everyone who had one less than a year or two old got a refund (tough luck everyone else) and they withdrew the product permanently.

In reply to deepsoup:

Thanks... guess I didn't recall correctly then

In reply to Ciro:
Near enough.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


Yeah, that's what I always do - once you're into the habit of it it makes things much safer.

I wish I had a similar check I could use when switching from top-roping to leading. The other day I was at the third bolt before my belayer asked me if I was going to start clipping at any point.

In reply to Wsdconst:


Feel free to ignore me, but your assertion is plain wrong. I use autobelays pretty much every week since I find that they are great for endurance training. The one I had in mind was the long one at Awesome Walls (Stockport). Lob off that one and by the time the autobelay is fully engaged I'm looking at my last footholds. A surprise the first time, but ok when you're expecting it. Just don't expect it to do much if come off the first few moves.

In reply to Marek:

Thought awesome walls used true blue xl on their auto belays there's no way a 6ft drop on those

In reply to Marek:

No Auto-belays will 'drop' you 6 feet. There's a difference between being 'dropped' and being accelerated to a terminal velocity.

It may well be the case that the Auto-belay will take 6 feet of descent before you reach your maximum terminal velocity.

In reply to MaxJEF:
On the TrueBlue Autobelays at my local wall the resistance kicks in immediately and builds rapidly to a constant speed descent.

In reply to MaxJEF:

I am really pleased to see this post as i thought that it was just me! I started to use one on the Montpelier wall last year. The first time I did actually down climb the whole way and the first time I let go from the top it certainly felt like I fell for nearly a meter before it started to brake. I recon that using these auto-belays is a bigger issue for us old guys who don't like falling off.

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

Using True Blues here too and they engage within half a meter tops. Can they be set or adjusted in any way I wonder?

In reply to RoK:

I have installed well over 100 Trublues this year alone, and as far as I'm aware they can't be adjusted as they work using Eddy Current technology.
I'm old school and don't like falling on to auto belays but do trust the Headrush auto's purely because I install so many.

In reply to Max Clarke:
Terminal velocity for an average man is over 50 meters per second with your arms and legs outstretched. In free fall it would take you over fifteen seconds to reach terminal velocity. Falling 20 meters, you'd deck after about two seconds and before you'd reached even 50% of your terminal velocity (which would take about three).

You can personalise your own imagined demise here: http://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed

In reply to Oldsign:


Not if they are clipped into an auto-belay.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Hopefully not

In reply to MaxJEF:

dont use them and dont even look at them if they are bothering you

In reply to Marek:



Yes it is a Trueblu but the feeling of 'falling' you have is because the wall is overhanging. This means you swing backwards a small way as gravity puts you directly under the unit. All the while the unit is already lowering you under control so by the time you stop 'falling' you may have travelled a couple of feet.

It will engage pretty much instantly. When we put people on them for the first time we get them to climb up a move or two and let go and encourage them to do this every time they clip in as a type of buddy check. They touch down under control.

In reply to biscuit:

I can get them to engage when standing on the floor just by bending my knees. I've yet to come across one which has an initial free-fall period.

In reply to MaxJEF:

I've used a few and they all seem to differ. Some feel like an over-enthusiastic belayer pulling me up the wall, and some are more like that mate who spends all his time staring at the pretty lady climbers instead of pulling in the slack.

I've found the "more eager" certainly wouldn't let you fall 6 foot and hit the ground, however I've decked on the ones at Xscape in Castleford from about 6 foot up. "Decked" may not be right, it may have offered a small amount of resistance before the floor, but I'm still thankful the floor is padded.

I like them though, they don't allow me to sit back and be lazy on a climb and Xscape in Castleford is two minutes round the corner from me, so even though it's far from a perfect venue if I fancy something that isn't bouldering and it's wet out, I don't need to sort out a partner.

I think the feeling of being dropped is purely psychological. From my understanding of how they work the fastest speed you can reach is the speed you hit the ground from when you have jumped off the top. You quickly reach a 'terminal' velocity. Any small falls will not reach this speed - there is not some initial fast descent at the start of the fall (unless the strap is slack); instead braking force increases with increasing speed until it balances your weight and there is no further deceleration.

If you jump off the top, you will hit the ground at speed X, but you will be ready for it and land on your feet, while if you jump off 4 foot up you will hit the ground at speed less-than-X but you may not be ready for it and may not land nicely.

In terms of safety, I believe the TruBlue ones have no moving parts apart from the axle and spool, and thus no moving parts which operate the braking motion (instead as already stated being done magnetically) - this is a Good Thing as moving parts are (generally) a Bad Thing

In reply to MaxJEF:

Just come back from the wall in Montpellier where they have installed another 3 units (6 in total) and thought that I would see just how far I fall before the kit kicks in. Now for an old guy who hates falling this is quite something especially at the start of a session. Although when jumping off from 12m it felt as if I was falling about 1m before the brake kicked in it was in fact about 30cms which was quite reassuring. Whilst the nerves were calming down I watched an instructor teaching 10 year olds to abseil and he used the auto belays to get them up the wall, set up a fig 8 and tie a prussik before abbing. A more worrying sight was him teaching said 10 year olds to climb, self belaying with a grigri. I thought that this was prohibited by Petzl?

In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:


TBH, that's about the only thing I use a grigri for.