UKC

So, if someone were to revamp an old building and turn it into a walker's hostel in Ulverston, would it get any custom if it was a vegan place?

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

I doubt it would get much. Veggie is one thing, and as a carnivore I would happily stay in a veggie place but not vegan. I couldn't start a day right without milk in my tea...

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Hi Claudia

I have several cousins who are strict vegans. One got married last year and had a home style reception where we all brought food and drinks etc to share. They went for a sensible option and had split buffet tables for vegan, veggie and meat Where folks helped themSelves. It went very well.

My vote would go for integration instead of specialisation.

Good luck with your venture.

Davey

In reply to Climbyclaudie:
Book me in,
people with " fussy " strict eating habits will travel far for a speciality place like a vegan hostel/ returant etc..

A vegan cafe, Bej, opened in hoylake , wirral and was kept busy by vegans traveling from a wide Range.


Milk in tea is wrong anyway, and don't even think about polluting my coffee

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

I'd visit/stay often if the cooking was good! & the prices were right. I'm not strictly vegan (occasionally have cheese or egg when away from home & menu is limited) but my wife is, & she loves vegan establishments - nothing she can't have on the menu! We are heading for a vegan hotel in Kendal in June. With the right advertising I think you could make it work, & if your food/service/prices are lovely, you will get repeat business. Good luck. Do it!! Nik

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

The problem with your idea is not the "vegan" part, but the "Ulverston" part.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:
love it and yes I would!!! As someone else stated... Keep the vegan thing fairly low key on the outside using working that vegans will know is vegan friendly but not freak out men who think their balls will atrophy from making a compassionate choice (bwahaha) but very much 100% yummy vegan on the inside I have a vegan B&B in Australia and most of my guests aren't vegan... Just open minded individuals who respond to a welcoming and friendly place that serves great food (that just happens to be fear free ) good luck and yay to you! Aligning purpose with principle is awesome all round!

In reply to Arctic:

I think I'd prefer to stay in a non-sexist hut/b-n-b

In reply to Arctic:


Hmmm, I find insulting the intelligence of potential customers is always an excellent tactic.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:


I think it depends how anal the rules were. Walkers might be carrying milk chocolate or gelatine containing wine gums, so would they have to leave them at the door, or keep them out of view?

Also in a hut you would expect to cook for yourself if you wanted, so you'd need bouncers to stop the I Can't Believe It's Not Butter crowd.

Unless you're looking at mainly just vegan clientelle, there used to be quite a few in the punk days of the 80s but I'm sure how that has translated to outdoor folk now.

You could try a bunkhouse with vegan restaurant attached, I think for an evening meal or lunch it makes little difference to most people if there's no meat. A longer stay, perhaps more so.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Loads as long as you serve meat

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Well this is wonderful news, I was expecting far more vegan insults than this Yes, I will keep vegan low key on outside and I know vegans will travel. I will not search hiker's pockets for wine gums at the door but I will request the kitchen is kept vegan or least veggie/vegan halves and have a vegan chef make awesome food. Lots of guests would be carnivores as it shall be free for single parent families on low income who cannot get a holiday elsewhere. I don't like hostels where I share fridge with meat stuff. Ulverston was chosen as most alternative place.....the place in Ulverston is not final yet and needs repairs so I would not give up to much cash by backing out. Hebden Bridge has a veggie hostel and Brighton over the amount of cash I have to spend on a base. Suggestions welcome Must be somewhere beautiful and outdoorsy for activities. Arctic, as you said, 'aligning purpose with principle is awesome', thankyou, I agree...I think your vegan B+B sounds great. Thanks for all the perspectives everyone, how beautifully supportive x

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

"gd303uk Book me in,
people with " fussy " strict eating habits will travel far for a speciality place like a vegan hostel/ returant etc..

A vegan cafe, Bej, opened in hoylake , wirral and was kept busy by vegans traveling from a wide Range.


Milk in tea is wrong anyway, and don't even think about polluting my coffee
Post edited at 20:11"
Yes gd303uk....I will keep you posted for grand opening

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

You may want to consider that there is a Buddhist monastery in Ulverston. You could consider this as bringing people of a Veggie type to the area or as competition for the Veggie pound.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

I live just a few miles from Ulverston and think this would be excellent for the town - however have you thought of opening as part restaurant to non-residents? Ulverston is very open to something different, as long as it is good quality, various individual restaurants have proved this. I am very much a carnivore but would be all too keen to eat somewhere like this; in fact I actively look out for vegetarian restaurants as an alternative as more often than not the lack of meat makes chefs all the more creative with their food.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Wouldn't attract me but wouldn't stop me from going.
My side question is why would vegans not want to share a kitchen with other non vegan food that's prepared. Surely as long as everything is clean it matters not?

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

My guess is that Ulveston is too far off the main walking tourist routes to support something this specialised.

In reply to jimjimjim:

Because for a significant number of vegans it's not only (or even mainly) about reducing animal suffering, but about being 'pure' and 'untainted' and seeing or being in the presence of animal products endangers this.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:


How would this work in practice? Too many non-paying guests will see you go out of business and how would you ensure you were not being ripped off? Proof of single-parenthood (not just husband / wife off with the kids while the other goes elsewhere or stays at work) and income required?

I'm veggie and my wife is veggie / vegan (flicks between them both because of greek yoghurt & halloumi). I'd think twice about a hostel if I thought that it catered specifically for young kids as we always travel with our dog.

In reply to jimjimjim:

That was my thought. I know quite a lot of vegetarians and a few vegans, and although some of them would probably travel for a good specialist restaurant I don't think many of them would plan a walking holiday around knowing that the next couple over in the hostel kitchen are making their pasta and pesto with dairy-free pesto and egg-free pasta. Walkers in bunkhouses don't often roast whole suckling pigs in hostel ovens, so it's not really a problem even if a given veggie does find that sort of thing offputting.

On the other hand, I do know people who'd probably plan a trip around a really good veggie fry-up. Would you be better off with a veggie and vegan cafe and/or a less specialised bunkhouse that just makes provision for special diets (eg a meat-free area and meat-free fridges) without actually stopping people having milk in their porridge if they want to?

NB Brighton and Hebden Bridge are kind of different places with kind of different people from Ulverston so not great precedents...

In reply to JayPee630:


Really? Wow. Must be amazing to exist on such an elevated plane that you don't even notice animal suffering.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

I don't know but, as a non-vegan/vegetarian who also enjoys eating a non-meat diet *if* it tastes good, I would recommend focussing on the good food aspect. Attempting to make things that are like meat-based food but aren't, such as tofu bacon or vegan shortbread, would put me off, as they generally taste rubbish and suggest an overall indifference to food being enjoyable to eat.

In reply to MG:


As an omnivore, I'd wholeheartedly agree with you. OTOH, my girlfriend is veggie and would crawl over broken glass if their was a Quorn-bacon sandwich at the end of it, because she doesn't have the option of just having the real thing some other time. If I was trying to do veggie-friendly cafe breakfasts (for instance) I'd probably try to offer both options.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

I would love to visit a vegan place, and would go out of my way to, but my husband (seriously tall & sporty) would really not get enough protein with a vegan meal. I am vegetarian and veggie food really doesn't work for him -he is willing to try & we eat veggie at home most of the time.

For an activity like walking I think you should offer veggie rather than just vegan, to increase your potential customers. Easier for a couple of us to go somewhere where they will offer a wider variety of food.

In reply to stubbed:

Really ? Exactly how much protein does he think he needs and what for ?

Either way that's a pretty old school attitude, you may wish to educate yourself and have a look at some of the top class vegan and veggie athletes, all of which I suspect may well be taller & sportier than your other half.....

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Visit The Globe in Glossop for a good example of a successful Vegan establishment.
https://www.facebook.com/TheGlobeGlossop

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

I know it's obviously not the same thing, but from talking to various sporting friends, being gluten-free is sometimes a choice they make in addition to being vegan. Would you consider that as an aspect too or would that just complicate things? There are further contamination issues, but on the plus side you'd be able to promote it to the coeliac community too.

In reply to JayPee630:


My vegetarian/now vegan friend used to go off the deep end when her brother cooked meat with her utensils, I dunno how my vegan friend Andy would react though, his approach is as much environmental as compassionate I gather.

In reply to Arctic:

'Everybody' knows how silly men are? I'll have to check my balls next time my vegan friend has me round for dinner.

In reply to Arctic:
Unless you just ment 'some' men? In which case note to self about being over sensitive.

In reply to Dave Garnett:



An elevation of plain maybe?

In reply to jimjimjim:


Vegans vary in this respect, some can be easy-going about it, others very uncomfortable. Also, everything being reliably clean would be nice, but in the real world many omnivores, with the best will in the world, don't quite get the importance of it and cut corners, or simply forget. Shared serving implements is a particular worry. Food preparers, including professionals, often make this mistake and don't even realize it. As a vegan, I sometimes find myself anxiously on"intercept duty". I do value the social side of eating with other people, whatever their preferences, but I'd have to confess that the only times I'm 100% relaxed is when preparing and eating food with vegans.

The other reason is the smell. Again, vegans vary, but for some this can be downright nauseating. Unwelcome fact, maybe, but true.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Mustbe easier to turn up and bring your own which, brings us back to the original question. Probably a good idea for everyone to have a vegan-only hut!

In reply to Climbyclaudie:


Well it's probably the non-vegan opinions that you're after, but FWIW we two vegans would be sure to come and stay

In reply to bpmclimb:

Well I can understand if there some dripping fat etc but if the simple act of sharing surfaces/utensils is unacceptable, this I can't understand. It's not a poison you're dealing with. Not criticising but trying to understand.
I myself would love to be vegan but my laziness and habits get in the way. I'm slowly getting there. I don't have a problem with mild "contamination" though. No one is completely vegan because there's animal products in everything. Sad but true

In reply to bpmclimb:

First world problems surely.

Are there vegans in Africa? Or anywhere outside the modernised world out of choice (I.e not of their making where only certain foodstuffs are availabl).

In reply to Climbyclaudie

I've been busy putting a trip together to climb Khan tengri this summer in Kazakhstan. Some people who were offered the chance to come along won't .......

Are not coming because there other halfs are veggie...

I actually see that as pretty regressive.

In reply to steveej:

So what? Do you hear any vegans critising them? If we we're all ate plant based food it would be better for the whole planet.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Have also been on sailing trips where one person out of ten expects to have a separate meal cooked for them. Personally can't understand it at all. I put it on the same level as religious fundementlism.

In reply to jimjimjim:

They also have strong opinions about recycling. Adamant that it would save the world.

I said to them what about reducing consumption?

At which point they were dumbfounded. To say that consuming 100 tons of crap and recycleing maybe 40% is not as as good as consuming 10 tons of crap and recycling zero was an alien concept concept to them.

In reply to steveej:


Apparently not.

I put it on the same level as religious fundamentalism.

One's nothing to do with the other, for the vast majority of people who live on various diets. I am a dietary vegan, and I'm about as far from religious fundamentalism as one can get. However, you are of course free to put it on whatever level you like.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Well I think it's a belief system, not necessarily based on fact or reality which is why I've put them together

In reply to steveej:

I can explain it all for you mate....you're a dick head, simple. Shame I've dragged down the tone of a nice thread but had to say it.
X

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

If a veggie was invited to my bbq, I'd be on google trying to find some nice recipes. They wouldn't be excluded.

Sad thing is it's become a first world problem and people are actually losing out because of a ideology. Similar to religious fundementalism

In reply to jimjimjim:


Well like I said, vegans vary in this respect, but FWIW in my case I have become very sensitive to animal proteins. Cooking meat smells can make me nauseous, and even a small amount of certain products (e.g.butter) make me ill. So I suppose you could regard it as a mild poison to me. I know several other long-term vegans for whom this is also true.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I think it's important too live in a world where you live and let live and put up with a few unpleasant smells.

There is an ultra race in snowdonia this year which is the vegan 14 peaks. You can only enter the race if you agree to eat vegan food.

Again, fundementalism springs to mind.

In reply to steveej:


It's your conclusions about vegans and veganism that seem based more on a belief system than on fact and reality. Most vegans I know are very rational in their reasons for being so.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

It's a bit like saying, here's a race you can enter but you have to eat lots of beef and drink 10 pints otherwise you aren't part of the gang.

I have an issue with telling other people what they should eat or how to live their lives.

However...... I have taken part in vegetarian events where the food has been fantastic. It was low key and not forced or noticeable.

So for the op whose going to be investing a lot of money into a business strategy, they should hear some opinions.

In reply to steveej:


I do get where you're coming from, but only as far as how a vegan friend of mine wouldn't eat any trifle I made if it had egg or cream in, which I kind of struggle to get my head around when her eating one portion wouldn't change the lives of any animals, or anything in the world, as far as I can see, but only as far as that.

A climbing vegan I know sat back and thought about the environmental impact of different foods before deciding to become vegan, so for him it's nothing at all like religious fundamentalism. He thought about animal welfare too.

It does seem like it's a part of human nature to be critical about the moral choices of other people when they would actually be difficult for oneself to make, so I'm very decidedly uncritical of my vegetarian and vegan friends.

In reply to steveej:


Again, nothing whatever to do with it, not me and not the vegans I know. This is getting nowhere. Let's agree to differ

In reply to bpmclimb:

So would it be acceptable for me to arrange a race where only white meat eating fundementalists were allowed to enter with shorts no longer than 4 inches can be worn because of my belief and value system? No it wouldn't! Why? Because it's not acceptable to tell other people how to live their lives.

Just like it's not acceptable for Catholic / Christians to turn away gay men from their b&b's.

Why is it acceptabl to force a belief system on bunk house guests by telling them what they can and can't eat

In reply to Mountain Llama:






Integration!

In reply to steveej:

But you're not wanting to 'live & let live'!! If you eat meat/fish then your food has required slaughtering. You have that right in law, but there isn't a single moral/ethical/philosophical argument to justify the practice. We are unlikely to find much common ground, which is why I won't be at your BBQ & you're unlikely to be in a vegan hostel.

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:

See above

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Back on topic, I'd actively avoid a hostel with a reasonably strict vegan kitchen policy. I normally cook vegetarian food anyway (girlfriend, as mentioned above) but like to make stuff with as little faff as possible when I'm in a hostel, and not being able to keep milk for cereal or cheese for sandwiches or to put halloumi or feta or eggs in our dinner would be a fairly major inconvenience even if there wasn't someone checking the ingredients list on my chocolate bars and bread rolls...

Somewhere where I had to keep my pasta with broccoli, red onion and feta discretely behind a dairy-screen in the non-vegan half of the kitchen and dining room would be a little odd but not untenable if it the hostel was really good in all other respects.

In reply to jon:



Cultural differences - she's Australian, there that counts as foreplay.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

I don't doubt it wouldn't get custom, but you'd be unlikely to see me there, I need my protien.

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:


There are lots. You might not agree with them but pretending there aren't any is silly.

In reply to jimjimjim:



Way to go Jim, insult a poster who has a differing view to yours. Good on ya mate!

In reply to MG:

You are misunderstanding the terms moral, ethical, philosophical & justify if you believe that.

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:
Your two posts sum up very well why people have a dim view of vegans - self-righteous, sneering and arrogant.

The most obvious philosophical justification for eating meat is that we have evolved to do so.

In reply to MG:

We are all 'self - righteous', except those who know they're wrong. Check your definition of 'sneer' in OED. 'Arrogant' might better describe someone who separates 'vegans' from 'people' - I am not vegan, but I understand their points of view. The philosophical argument is beautifully presented in 'The Philosophy Files' by Stephen Law, doctor of philosophy & a climber too. If you feel offended by my posts, or by vegans self - righteousness, then that feeling arises from within. You have the right to eat slaughtered food, & it's a traditional practice, but there isn't any moral, ethical or philosophical justification. You don't have to like this.

In reply to MG:


What percentage of people have this dim view? What percentage of vegans are regarded in this way? You make it sound like all people and all vegans (which is to do a disservice to both).

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:

>but there isn't any moral, ethical or philosophical justification. You don't have to like this.

Or indeed agree with it it. Its bollocks.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Vegan would put me off, but I would be quite happy with Veggie (although admittedly my other half wouldn't go for it!).

As others have said meat eaters often have very negative views of vegan food, both in taste and nutritional terms. I think you would appeal to a much broader market as veggie hostel, specialising in vegan food and might even dispel many of the negative views once people have tried your menu.
- offer a good varied vegan menu
- provide cows milk for drinks/cereal
- have a dedicated fridge area for storage of non vegan (but veggie) foodstufs which people want to cook for themselves.

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:


Well most of us do know we are wrong.


Check your definition of 'sneer' in OED.

Done that.

'Arrogant' might better describe someone who separates 'vegans' from 'people' - I am not vegan, but I understand their points of view.

Well in that case i withdraw self righteous and substitute gross hypocrite. You do something you believe has no moral, philosophical or ethical justification

If you feel offended by my posts,

I don't

In reply to jimjimjim:

Well, I'm guessing that if you feel that meat production involves unconscionable animal suffering, it could make you a bit queasy trying to make your breakfast in the same kitchen while someone's frying bacon.

N.B. I'm a confirmed omnivore, personally. And the vegans I know have all been extremely polite about hanging out with other people who are eating non-vegan food.

But if some people would appreciate a vegan-specific hostel and others would like to provide that (and there's enough of a clientele to make it financially viable, etc. etc.) -- I can't see why that's not legitimate, or why some people are so outraged by the prospect that there might be one hut somewhere in the UK that doesn't allow cheese.

In reply to slab_happy:

I'm perfectly happy for there to be a vegan hostel with vegan only food allowed. I would just question the business case. By targeting vegans only (lets assume that the non vegans who are prepared to stay there are balanced by couples where one partner refuses to stay there) you are targeting 0.25% of the population (Vegan society figures). Out of that number, how many would use a walkers hostel ? and out of them, how many would choose Ulveston as a walking base ? All year round ?

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Would these walkers be allowed to wear down jackets or merino base layers in the hostel? Genuine question.

In reply to steveej:


Mink coats?


Sorry

In reply to slab_happy:


that could all get very specific though couldnt it, with the customer base shrinking every time the kitchen rules get more specific. Theres much more room for niche marketing in big population centres than in a remote area catering to a relatively minority activity group who mostly wont be there primarily for the food.

In reply to MG:

What an open minded person you appear to be?

In reply to slab_happy:

That's my experience too.


I think it possibly comes from vegans making a choice which makes some other people feel a little bit uncomfortable.

In reply to steveej:
Leather boots?

In reply to the OP: judging from posts on this thread you *might* get lucky and end up with a small repeat customer base, sufficient for your business to survive long enough to develop a broader custormer base. If your prospective hostel has enough room, I'd say go for 2 kitchens - Vegan / Non Vegan that way you won't alienate any potential client who isn't prepared to give up cheese and milk etc.

I would probably make the non vegan kitchen bigger (since there are fewer vegans than veggies).

In reply to Timmd:

To be clear, I was referring to those two posts, not vegans generally

In reply to MG:

'...why people have a dim view of vegans'

If you say so.

In reply to Timmd:

Oh FFS, it wasn't perfectly worded but the meaning was clear unless you deliberately set out to misinterpret what I was saying. Why do you do this? How about, "The two posts exemplified the reason some people regard some vegans as self-righteous, sneering and arrogant". Is that OK with you or do you want spin it somehow too to try and come over even more right-on and PC than normal?

In reply to Andy Hardy:

and in your advertising emphasis the 'healthy fresh organic vegan home cooking' aspect of it - I reckon that might appeal to quite a few people as an alternative to greasy fry ups and huge stodge fests, not neccesarily just those who are vegan. Not that a bit of grease and stodge isnt very fine sometimes on a cold day

In reply to MG:

Are you having a bad day?

''Your two posts sum up very well why people have a dim view of vegans - self-righteous, sneering and arrogant.''

The meaning wasn't clear or I wouldn't have commented, it was a generalised post which sounded as angry as this one does.

I was only being tongue in cheek with my winky smiley, but there you go.

I don't care if it's meat, vegetarian or vegan meal as long as portions are of good size and it's balanced. Think of Alpine huts with their simple meals, but eat as much as you like policy. Normally after a day in the mountains I really want a lot of calories, not some ridiculous chef specials.

Ulverston is a bit weird choice if you are considering walkers to be your clients.

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:


And what moral/ethical/philosphical argument makes the slaughtering of animals/fish for food unjustifiable?

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
For animals, the argument goes that the animal isn't alive any more - that it's wrong to impose one's will on another sentient being, and that even if animals wouldn't be born if they weren't eaten, they still suffer while they're alive, and that there's an environmental impact linked with rearing animals to be eaten, too.

In reply to Timmd:

And this extends to predators and prey?

In reply to Timmd:

A well looked after animal destined for food production can (at least should) have a much better standard of living and a much cleaner death than the average totally wild beast. As far as I can tell our only moral duty here is to treat the animals humanely whilst alive and dispatch them humanely when the time comes.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I wouldn't have thought to, given it's a human construct to be a vegan, it's about what humans do.

Not being a vegan, I'm probably not the best person to ask.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
And people who raise/farm animals in environments where it's essential to survival? It's fine for lots of urban westerners who rely on vegetable protein raised elsewhere, but it doesn't work for most of the world. Look at crofting in Scotland - it'd be impossible without raising animals for food and their fertilizer for the land. Not to mention the fishing.

And let's not have any of that meat production argument, that's an issue with industrial farming, not meat eating per se. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vegetarian-Myth-The-Lierre-Keith/dp/1604860804

In reply to JayPee630:
and we still haven't had a response to my Down Jacket, Merino base layers, leather boots query.

I'm genuinely intrigued on what the vegan stance is on these items.

In reply to steveej:



Presumably vegans don't wear anything, or use any gear, just to be on the safe side

In reply to steveej:


Presumably, many vegans wouldn't wear / use them.

However, running a vegan-friendly hut wouldn't necessarily mean banning them, since vegans might not object to being in the same room as a merino baselayer as strongly as they would object to being in the same room as a rare steak. AIUI, either objection would be "I find it uncomfortable / nauseating to be in the same room as this animal product" rather than "I consider it immoral to be in the same room as this animal product", hence they don't really have to be consistent.[1] And hence a hut whose business is based on being somewhere that vegans find comfortable and convenient (and not nauseating) doesn't particularly have to be consistent either.

[1] by which I mean "it's not hypocritical to be inconsistent on this".

In reply to steveej:

The proper vegan stance is no use of animal products, but it does vary vegan to vegan. I suspect a walkers hut might not enforce that for outdoor dress!

In reply to JayPee630:

To be reared for meat, each animal does have a carbon footprint, it goes chicken pig sheep and then cow in increasing size.

The same size order applies whether it's industrial farming or small scale.

In reply to Timmd:

That's a very narrow way of understanding raising animals. Yes, they do have a carbon footprint, but that has to be balanced against the alternatives, and in many different areas, not just carbon emissions. Not to mention the fact that in some areas you can't live on non-animal produce alone.

Chicken from your back garden fed on scraps, or tofu from soya grown on ex-rainforest land and flown across the world and factory processed? Or even local lamb or factory quorn? There's plenty of good arguments that when looked at in totality eating the lamb results in less animal death and suffering than the quorn.

In reply to JayPee630:

Not all vegans are vegan for ethical reasons - my petrolhead, investment banker, Tory brother (i.e. not the stereotypical hippy) follows a vegan diet as a way of managing his MS and hopefully slowing it's progression.

In reply to Tall Clare:

For sure, I know that, but we are generally chatting about those that are here.

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Read the aforementioned Philosophy Files by Stephen Law.
You have no need to be predator & in the UK we are lucky not to be prey

In reply to MG:
I have been vegetarian for 27 years. Nothing is slaughtered for my nourishment. We have no milk/cheese/eggs etc at home, but when climbing/socialising with friends I have partaken of cakes & cheese butties that have been offered/made for me. I am not a declared vegan, but follow an almost-vegan vegetarian lifestyle. I wear plastic boots for winter climbing, my rock shoes have synthetic uppers & I don't use down-filled products. I consider wool acceptable despite the lamb/mutton trade. I am concerned about the use of petrochemicals in the manufacture of artificial fibres - I buy seldom, & wear it to death. No deliberate hypocrisy, gross or otherwise.

In reply to Timmd:

How is that calculated. For instance per kg or per calorie? And what of the alternatives?

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:



Ive no.need to do lots of things (heat my house, travel, have sex) that doesn't make them immoral.

In reply to MG:

Per KG

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-28858289

In reply to MG:

You didn't make the comment about predator/prey; the reply was not to you.
People much wiser than me have made compelling intellectual cases on morality, ethics & philosophy. You have a right to stick to your opinions, despite its intellectual frailty.
Your statement is banal - all those activities can indeed be done immorally (fiddle your electric meter/get overcharged by your energy provider, steal a bike/fare-dodge & have sex in inappropriate locations or non-consensual sex as abuser/abused) or entirely morally. Context. No need to reply - I am bored of your sentiments.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Back to topic, I would ask potential clients whether thi is a sound notion or not. Given the email content the business model does not sound healthy. How about a veggie cafe and a few bunk rooms. Maybe.

On the other theme, I asked for the carnivore option at a veggie restaurant. Predictably there was nothing available. Not good.

In reply to JayPee630:
You're right, it is still something worth thinking about, though, when deciding which animal to eat meat from, it's a part of the mix of factors to consider.

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:

Do forgive me your intellectual highness for daring to answer a post of yours.

In reply to Timmd:

Per calorie would be interesting, I think.

In reply to MG:

It would probably be straight forward to find the amount of calories in a KG of each kind of meat, and then go from there.

In reply to buxtoncoffeelover:

I was asking whether the expressed view ("it's wrong to impose your will on another sentient being") applies to predators, whether human or animals in the wild. I also find it an odd view in today's world; modern life is full of bodies of people who impose their will on me (another sentient being). I cannot see that what they do is wrong. It seems a lousy argument as a result.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Thankyou for all thoughts on this, some interesting ideas...I have not read the last half of the thread due to time. Where on earth do I get my protein??? I have decided to do what I would like as a customer. The hostel will be vegan. Good food will be served. People who cannot afford a holiday elsewhere can stay free without having to 'prove' they are poor. If I get less custom or rich folk pretending to be single parents etc...so be it. If it works it will be as I want it to be. If it fails I will get a job as a teacher/lentil washer/yogi etc. I hope to see you all at my hostel

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Not to the degree of taking your life away.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Strict vegan, so no down in the duvets, and no leather or animal products in clothing allowed in as well?

In reply to Climbyclaudie:


lovely idea but you dont want it to become a dosshouse... might be better to just make it cheap and good value. That will still be fine for most folks. you could always do stuff like not charging for kids to make it easier for people like single income parents.

In reply to jimjimjim:


I'm a meat-eater, but my wife's family are Jain, and therefore strictly vegetarian. As a result, my mother-in-law (who's in her eighties and really isn't looking for any point scoring), is very uncomfortable being in our kitchen - as a life long vegetarian, she's very conscious of the smell of animal fats that linger in the air (that we don't notice). My sister-in-law described it as being similar to walking into a smoker's house, where they might be oblivious to the smell of tobacco, but to the visitor it's very obvious. The thought of having (even vegetarian) food served to her that has been prepared in the same kitchen and using the same utensils would be really uncomfortable for my mother-in-law.

We have four kids, the eldest two of which are twins. We started them both as vegetarians, and once they could broadly understand what meat is, gave them the choice. As a result, one has remained vegetarian all her life and the other isn't (they're 17 now). This causes significant kitchen challenges!

In reply to pebbles:

Yes, this is a good idea Thought maybe a sliding scale of charges or something but same cheap price for all maybe easier

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Yes, having it free for some could leave you being exploited by less than honourable people.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

Oh, I dunno. Vegans are very rare; vegans who go on walking holidays must a lot rarer.

The food you dish up would have to be amazing for me to want to stay.

I would guess that it would be a big risk

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

I'd love to stay at a vegan walkers hostel. I hope your plan works out and the next time I'm Ulverston I'll definitely come visit.

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

I have no idea where Ulverston is, but I wish you well with the hostel

I was vegan for 3 years, and veggie for the last 30 years. I did find (understandably) a lot of variation in what other vegans found acceptable or not (honey, wool, even keeping pets), so I would suggest publicising what your hostel is/is not OK with.

Personally I'm not happy eating somewhere where the air is full of meat fumes, partly because the smell makes me nauseous, and partly I know those vapourised bits of a corpse are being absorbed into my body, so I avoid them.
So a veggie/vegan cafe or hostel does have a lot of appeal, both Glastonbury (town) and India are full of them, and they are usually busy...

In reply to Climbyclaudie:

But surely Vegans very rarely visit our Earth? It's 25 light years away.

In reply to abseil:


[clap clap clap]

In reply to abseil:


And the last time it was only to build a hyper-spacial bypass. And lets not forget their awful poetry!

In reply to Goucho:


Happy memories... must read that again.

In reply to dereke12000:

Google, or a map, is your friend

In reply to winhill:

"The people who endorsed the Four Ns were more likely to be men."

""People love animals and are genuinely concerned about them. But they also eat meat so there's a paradox here and we were interested in finding out how people resolve it," he says. "We think that the Four Ns are a way to alleviate feelings of guilt."

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/diet-and-fitness/meat-eaters-justify-diet-u...

Meat production, in it's current forms, is unsustainable for a growing global population.
Much meat production involves an unacceptable level of cruelty to a sentient being.
The dairy industries waste huge amounts of water and produce a lot of pollution.
Most people don't need more calories or protein - they need less. Obesity is rampant in the west, and growing in developing nations.
Most of the arguments against veganism, or for-meat, ('evolution', lack of protein etc) are fallacious and outdated.

Doug Scott did some of his hardest climbs as a vegetarian, since the mid 1970s.
The small Australian team that climbed a new route on the north face of Everest without bottled oxygen in 1984 all did so as vegetarians.
No one's weekend walk in the Lakes would be adversely affected by 48hrs without meat, nutritionally and physiologically speaking.

I am not a vegan. I am a cattle farmer.

In reply to Damo:




Reminds me of that scene from Crocodile Dundee: "Well you could eat it, but it tastes shit". To say I could survive a weekend in the Lakes without meat is missing the point - I know I could. However if I were paying to use a hostel, I simply wouldn't choose one that prevented me from eating meat.

In reply to dereke12000:



Good grief.

In reply to Doghouse:

Makes you wonder how some people cope with breathing in a lung full of Scottish midge !