UKC

I've only really used Friends as cams over the years. I'm aware that BD and DMM have their own well made versions and that Totem are well rated but don't go that large.

Anybody got a suggested replacement....or just go with another WC Helium 3?

Thanks

In reply to Shapeshifter:

http://www.swarpa.net/~danforth/graphics/camsizes.gif

Lots of cam size comparison charts on Google Images. I used to use Friends, swapped to BD Camalots. The yellow C4 (size 2) is about the right size, I much prefer them over Friends (don't seem to get stuck as easily as Friends due to the double axle)

In reply to Shapeshifter:

As you say, there are other options but mostly in the smaller sizes. Either a Helium Friend or a DMM Dragon. The equivalent sized Dragon would be more versatile but marginally heavier if I recall correctly.

In reply to Shapeshifter:
Having used all the above mentioned cams, I would personally say Camelot C4 for that size without any shadow of a doubt. So easy and nice to place, stable, strong spring, good head width, great range.

Yeah they are slightly heavy, pricy, not British made and don't have an extendable sling, but they are just so good in use.

That's my two pennies. Hope that helps.

In reply to Jimbo C:


Well when you consider that 100% of the time you need a QD to extend a camalot, but only need a QD 25-50% of the time with a dragon (so could carry less), any weight difference is largely irrelevant. Apparently DMM cams are lighter anyway: http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=3213

In reply to Shapeshifter:

Thanks all - I'll think I'll pop into a shop and have a look, but seems like Camalot 2 get's good PR and has a wider camming range into the Friend 2.5 area also.

In reply to SenzuBean:

Why do you need an extender 100% of the time for a camelot (I don't nor do most others I see using them). I do extend them at times for all sorts of reasons but its not automatic.

In reply to Shapeshifter:


If your other cams are friends, I'd replace with a friend in order to keep a coherent set of sizes (Camalots conveniently more or less interleave friend sizes so one set of each makes perfect sense for a double set but if you climb with a single set, stick with one or the other).

In reply to SenzuBean:


Eh? Camalots, like friends, have a built in extender.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Good point, I've got a full set of friends and the No.3 was from my other half set of a few different cams. Looks like another vote for a Camalot.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Unless they're the old twin-stem ones (which came without a sling): http://www.needlesports.com/NeedleSports/nutsmuseum/artcams/Nuts%27Story68....

In reply to Shapeshifter:
I think the point about slings and extenders is that if you don't use an extender, it is much easier for the cam to walk into a placement in which the cam lobes will be sideloaded, which is never a good scenario, but particularly with double axle cams as the lobes have a great big hole in them. Personally, if there is even a chance of this occuring, especially when the crack is a shallow one where the cam could potentially walk into a position which prevents it from swiveling around into the correct position, I extend. I know you see lots of yanks just clipping the slings, but I'd say from a design/strength point of view, it's a pretty crappy idea...

In reply to Robert Durran:


You're right - but they're very short, so maybe make that figure 80% then.

In reply to SenzuBean:

I used to think like you and stuck an extender on every cam placement I made but, having seen a lot of vids of yanks just clipping the cam thought I'd give it a try and it turns out, 80% (give or take) of the time I've not needed an extender. Obviously it depends on the route but it's totally changed my approach.

In reply to Shapeshifter:

Dragons would be my choice, without a doubt. So, so good.

In reply to Shapeshifter:

If you like the extendable slings, get the Dragon. If, for some reason, you don't want extendable slings get the Camelot. Otherwise there doesn't really seem to be much to choose between them.

In reply to galpinos:
I suspect it is grade dependent?

If doing hard, short, steep face climbs, then probably less need to extend.

If doing easy but rambling ledge climbs, probably more important...

(with obvious exceptions for easy slabs, big hard roofs etc)

In reply to Shapeshifter:

DMM have the edge in the market. Well made, lighter than the original Camelot and with the exstending loop, excelent.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Fair point. Having chnaged from friends to Camalots after my rack got nicked they do seem to walk less so that might have influenced my decision too.

(I find the Dragons slings a real faff, so much so they're well down my list of preference for cams)

In reply to SenzuBean:

I have mostly camalots. In my experience, erm.. 40% tops.
(Leading on double ropes, no doubt it'd be higher on a single.)

In reply to galpinos:

They can be a pain for seconds, who either have to either redo the sling or have it hanging round their knees - but that's their problem; certainly no worse than racking a slingdraw.

In reply to BarrySW19:


Love these discussions
I have ended up with a mixture of cams over the years, including a set of tech friends, the 4 smallest Camalots and recently sizes 4 to six in dragons. All have their pros and cons.

For me, the type of climbing I am doing dictates which I take with / use.
I live down South and tend to do mainly sea cliff limestone trad. It is usually steep, no more than two pitches and the cam placements are normally not obvious from the start of the route / pitch. For this, it's the 4 smallest Camalots plus loads of nuts.

On the rare occasion I get to play on grit, I grab the friends and will pick out the cams I think I need while standing at the bottom of a 1 pitch route (I get it right about half the time!)

The big dragons are my latest purchase for the sea cliffs to join the small Camalots, and as a replacement for my DMM torque nuts which I loved when I first got them as a replacement for my old hexes, but have fallen out of love with due to that constant jangling noise plus the fact that they are even more of a pain to reset than dragons, which if you reset the extender before you clean them, are not too bad.

Sad gear geek Sussex.

In reply to Shapeshifter:

A dragon with the sling extended isn't actually much longer in total than a camalot.

I find the camalots a fraction nicer but use dragons - locally made and still super nice use. Much prefer them to heliums.

In reply to jezb1:
Why do you prefer them to heliums?

I have dragons and have owned camalots and various other cams, I'm coming to the opinion that the twin axel isn't as good a design as single axel. I think half the reason they feel bomber is the stem isn't free to rotate about the axels once placed, which in my opinion is a design flaw (as rotating the stem will often crunch the lobes about in the crack). Also as Beardy Mike often points out the twin axel design isn't as strong as single axels (in general) and they are more prone to bend (lobes and axels?). I do also wonder if the extra weight could be used to carry another single axel cam and negate the expansion range increase (and actually be more useful).

I like that WC are now using extendable slings on the heliums however I dislike that wide heads especially in the smaller sizes, that was the main trick the missed IMO. Also I don't really care for the thumb loops so to me they are wasted space / weight.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'm not keen on the "feel" of heliums. Not very objective I know, but they feel like toys compared to DMM (demons/dragons) - BD cams

I use single axle totems in smaller sizes, they're awesome.

I'm aware of the potential weakness of twin axle designs, but placed properly it doesn't concern me.

Mostly it boils down to personal choice doesn't it. I've fallen on all sorts of brands and they've all down the job... So far!

In reply to jezb1:

I don't think the total length is the issue for me (a Dragon user). Having the extra 'wiggle' length of the extended sling makes it less likely to walk or get dragged out of place by the moving rope. I love the Dragons for this reason. Depends on the route though. On grit I extend the sling maybe 60% of the time. I rarely use a qd on them. It's also nice having the option to extend the sling if the krab is resting over an edge once the cams are in the optimum placement.

In reply to jezb1:
I know what you mean, the helium lobes look mighty skinny and not very beefy - especially in the smaller sizes. It's just something I've noticed visually never actually compared them against other cams.

In reply to Shapeshifter:

I don't like the extra faff involved with the extendable slings. I can see their use on a mountain crag where you want to minimise weight, and where the line wanders, but for cragging, I much prefer Camalots. Taken a number of lobs on them, and never been worried about the double axle. The best thing to do is to borrow some different cams from mates and see how they feel in use.

In reply to BarrySW19:


I throw a slingdraw over my head, I seem to recall trying it with a Dragon and it wasn't long enough.