UKC

It's coming up to new shoe time again and I'm wondering whether to try going from my current Red Chili Spirit Speeds (mid-range) to something at the high end (the Red Chili Stratos look interesting). Do the high end shoes really make much difference (currently climbing up to 6c indoor)?

In reply to BarrySW19:

Hi Barry
One further thing that could improve the decision is to give what grades you climb slabs at and the grades you climb on overhangs. Apparently you can use anything on a slab, but on overhangs the like of something with a sharp edge, down turned front and tight fit will make overhangs much more doable. [I read this in both of Dave Macleods books too]

In reply to BarrySW19:

The fit is probably the most important part of your shoe choice... As you work up the grades things become more technical, so being able to place the toe and your foot not move inside it, or heel hook without the shoe popping off becomes more important. So a shoe with a better design that locks the foot in place would be preferential... if they fit well, and are as comfortable as skin tight shoes can be then go for it... that being said - when I climb inside I use a really soft shoe, not technical at all and cost about £45.... if i'm on something at my limit then I use the posh (high-end) shoes... there is lots of advice out there, https://www.thebmc.co.uk/climbing-shoes-is-pain-insane thats worth a read.... http://bouldersuk.com/2013/09/climbing-shoe-buying-guide/ as is that....

In reply to SenzuBean:
"Apparently you can use anything on a slab"

Ever climbed slabby slate with a pair of shoes with a crap edge? Or climbed a smooth slab like something at baggy point with a really edgy shoe that's crap for smearing?

I reckon at 6c you're going to start benefiting from decent shoes.

I tend to have a super comfy pair for work. A pair with a good edge and a pair that have lost their edge but are great for smearing.

5.10s fit me really well so that's what I go for.

(Dave Macloed could climb and route I do in his trainers, but I need all the help I can get.)

In reply to SenzuBean:



Hey Jon - hmm, that could be why my overhang grades tend to be lower than my slab grades. Of course, it could be down to my pitiful forearm stamina.

In reply to BarrySW19:

If it fits and the shoe-foot combination is stiff enough to carry plenty of weight without rolling off the edges/holds you're encountering then that's all you need.

Shoes that curl your foot up like a pretzel are hopeless anywhere where you might want to use the sole of the foot (most normal climbs and all slabs) rather than the toe tip, heel and front edges. On the other hand decent flat shoes work pretty well on steep ground.

Get comfy shoes that are supportive enough and don't be lured into thinking more ££ = climbing harder.

jk

In reply to BarrySW19:

Personally I find the shoes are far less important for indoor climbing than they are for real rock.

In reply to BarrySW19:

I wouldn't get super-technical shoes for climbing 6c indoors:
1) You don't need them at that grade - the footholds are sufficiently large/positive that it won't make much difference
2) The rubber on technical shoes is much thinner than it is on cheaper shoes - even if your footwork is amazing (and, generalising horribly, most people climbing 6c at their max don't have good footwork), you'll wear through your shoes much faster for no real gain.

However, the type of rubber may make a difference. I've never got on with Red Chili shoes, so can't comment, but I find the rubber on Boreals is crap, whereas all but the bottom range of Scarpa and La Sportiva use Vibram XS Edge or Grip2 - which are decent. Swapping to another mid-range shoe using different rubber may make enough difference to give you more confidence. I would avoid getting a down-turned shoe at this stage - as others have said, they are rubbish on slabs, but won't make much difference on overhands at 6c.

As others have said, fit is the most important thing.

In reply to BarrySW19: At the grades you're climbing (HS on gear, 6c indoors max) shoes are not a limiting factor. A decent pair will be fine, as long as they fit well. There is absolutely no need to get a pair of down turned shoes.

Andy F

In reply to BarrySW19:

My previous advice assumed 6c outdoors, sorry, didn't read your op properly..

In reply to BarrySW19:

I agree with what others say esp. regarding climbing indoors. I've found I can climb indoors with really crap worn out boots and barely notice but when I use the same boots outside I can hardly stand on anything small at all.

I have heard from one friend that Red Chillis are not that great so maybe just trying a different brand will help.

You can actually get pretty decent boots these days without shelling out loads of cash. Look out for special offers. I got some Scarpa Vapour Vs for £65 recently, which are normally over £100. I also climb with Simmond Tech Slippers which are under £50 and have great feel and a very precise toe - though, like many slippers, they're no good for heelhooking.

In reply to BarrySW19:


Indoors, no, they'll make no difference (except forcing you to take them off much more often).

Outdoors, at that grade, yes indeed, they'd make a significant difference.

In reply to BarrySW19:
Do decent shoes make a difference? Yes, gods yes! I marvel at how people insist that novices wear baggy, crappy shoes with no edge. After all, you wouldn't insist that someone learn to drive in a crappy car with loads of faults and dodgy steering, would you? Good shoes make for precise, accurate footwork, because they provide decent sensitivity and allow the climber to get a good sense of which part of the shoe they are actually using.

Will decent shoes make you instantly climb harder? No, probably not. But they will allow you progress unhindered by crappy edges etc, and will become more and more relevant as you get stronger. Scarpa Vapours or Anasazi Pinks would make for a great choice.

And yes, good shoes make a difference indoors. If you think they don't, you don't have precise footwork*. Sorry.

*Or, you're a beast and this doesn't apply to you. Now go back to training.

In reply to GrahamD:


I think it's a horrible waste of money to wear out expensive shoes indoors. For indoors I go for cheap and hard wearing things I can get lots of use out of. I can see for climbing really hard steep boulder problems or super-hard routes, pointy shoes are appropriate; and life's too short for indoor slabs (although it is quite long) IMO so that's not an issue for me.

But good shoes are very unlikely to make any difference indoors other than at the elite level. I can climb almost as well indoors in completely worn out crap shoes as good, new ones. On rock it does make a difference though.

In reply to whenry:

With the greatest respect this is bollocks Although there are a few technical shoes with thin soles, the majority of rock shoes have a pretty similar thickness of rubber (the La Sportiva Mythos(non-tech) and Solutions (top-end) both use 4mm outsoles for instance). The stiffness of the shoe is largely dictated by the midsole. Interestingly a lot of the current entry level shoes are also quite soft, presumably so that they feel more responsive out of the box (particularly on big rounded indoor holds!).

FWIW my advice to the OP would be that RC Spirit Speeds are really entry level, rather than 'mid-range'. Something like the Scarpa Vapour V, Sportiva Katana (lace), Edelrid Typhoon or Evolv Bandit will certainly be an improvement provided they are fitted correctly.

G.

In reply to GPN:

Possibly bollocks , but I did do a (little) bit of research before posting, which was fairly conclusive in determining that there's a good 1mm of difference fairly consistently - but I suspect there's more of a difference in the rand thickness (for most people the first part of the shoe to go) - certainly in the shoes I've owned over the years - and there's much thinner rubber on the rand of my Scarpa Boostics than there is on the crappy Boreals I have for easy routes.

In reply to BarrySW19:

Well my current crop of shoes (all Sportivas) in rotation at this moment

katanas with multiple resoles
solutions
tarantula
katana laces

there is definitely a world of difference when i am using the solutions or katana laces. my feet on holds simply feel better.

the katanas are good too but they are my indoor pair because i dont feel like trashing newer shoes as i fall off problems in the gym

the tarantulas are extremely stiff and insensitive compared to the other shoes and are basically my warm up shoes.

at the level i climb at (6c+, V3/V4) there is not a single move that I cannot do simply because of the shoes. But the accumulation of moves starts to add up. each insecure foot placement makes me hesitate/overgrip/etc. A more precise/sensitive shoe makes me more confident to go into the next move or gives me enough feedback to readjust my foot if needed.

So ya i would say the shoes make a difference.... but how much of a difference? Saying a full grade would probably be an exaggeration at the grades i climb. My footwork is not my limiting factor

In reply to valjean:

Last night I was trying a steep problem with big reaches at my local wall, and with my old stiff trad edging shoes (Tenaya Ra - not bad shoes by any means) I couldn't dig into the holds with my toes enough to keep my feet on. Switched to pythons to be able to grab effectively with my feet; job done. I boulder around 6B or so, so this wasn't some super hard thing.

I think this is very much worth the read: http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.de/2010/09/review-vapour-velcros-and-ho...

From personal experience - I've always had two shoes - one crappy baggy shoe that I tend to use on multipitches or quite easy trad. And one very technical one (at the moment it's the Scarpa Instincts VS).

I could probably boulder a similar grade with the baggy shoe, but each move would take that much more strength as I'd be applying pressure on the foot in a much less precise way due to the rounded edge. This in turns tires me out and makes my footwork a little bit sloppy and I use more of the arms.

The ultra technical shoes I've had have been very important for teaching me precise footwork and developing that trust that even if you're clipping from a very bad edge or feature on the wall, your foot will stick.

Additionally, as DM points in the article above, you tend to develop this catlike footplacements in which you place the foot always correctly orientated so that the edge is perfectly orientated for maximum purchase. The downturn and the grippy edge seemed to work wonders in developing that.


Having said that, it's true that there are videos of people doing London Wall in Trainers and people have been putting up very hard sport climbs before the idea of downturn came together, however I view it as advantage to help progress quicker and developer slicker footwork, so why not.

I'd just resole mine after I wear them out for a fraction of the price of a new one.

In reply to BarrySW19:
Through a short series of errors on the part of the retailer, I ended up with an a very high end pair of shoes which I hadn't initially intended to buy (hats off to the splendid people at Bananafingers). They're a beautiful fit on me, snug but not tight, ridiculously comfortable, very precise, very sticky - I've never had a better shoe, they're absolutely wonderful. The only downside is they look like something a climbing superhero would wear (www.andrea-boldrini.com/climbingshoes/pro/ab-apache-5.html) and I am an ageing punter with a beer belly, so there is an - ahem - 'mismatch' there. Recently did some stuff in Wales and was soooo glad of these shoes. Felt super secure and was easily able to use small edges to make harder sequences much easier - the old hip flexibility isn't what it used to be .

So, my advice is get the hero shoes, providing they fit you well.

In reply to BarrySW19:

The only time I realised that a shoe can make a difference was on an overhanging fridge hugging indoor problem (font 6c ish) that relied on my heel staying on while making a dynamic move with same side hand. Kept trying the move in my katanas (that I had used to climb up to 7b outside) and remember thinking that it must be either my reach or not enough core strength that's making me fail. One session I reluctantly put on my brand new solutions (as they were still quite painful to wear) and made the move first go - difference was the amount of rubber on the heels.
Solutions also worked better on a slab route that required a use of a tiny edge cut into wall (barely a matchstick width) - it was graded something around 6c.
So yes, high end shoes do make difference but as a general rule I tend to just use shoes with good edge and pointy flat toe that fit well - like katanas or tenaya oasi

In reply to whenry:


Do you mean rubbish on slabs, or rubbish at smearing? Some limestone slabs I've tried have had lots of tiny footholds and edges, so I definitely felt my down-turned technical shoes were performing well.

In reply to BarrySW19:

Most people have ignored the heel in their responses. If you enjoy bouldering indoors and outdoors, a heel that sticks tight to the foot and has rubber all around it can make a massive difference doing heel hooks

In reply to BarrySW19:

I climb about the same judging from your op (6c/7a indoors, VS or 'easy' HVS out) though in honesty tend to boulder more than anything else.

I've bought all manner of shoes, some pretty technical expensive "high tier" shoes, some aggressively down turned and some cheapo shoes that have been on offer. My footwork is dire so I burn through shoes.

In all honesty I've never found any to be of massive benefit, my current shoes are a pair of EBs (forget the model, bright pink though) and they're great but that's entirely down to the fit for me.

Nowadays that's what I base my decision on, the fit and the price.

In reply to valjean:






Do you take the same size in all of these shoes? I wear katana velcro and now I've found a shoe that fits well I'm not keen to change, but if other Sportivas have similar sizing then I might be tempted.

In reply to humptydumpty:

no
my katana at size 40 is pretty much all day comfort after the break in period
solutions in 39.5 feels too baggy, 39 is about all i want to tolerate, I can fit and climb in 38.5s but no way Im inflicting that on myself.
katana laces i have in 40.... i now wish i took them at 39.5

In reply to humptydumpty:

Fit is most important, except on super specific things. I've climbed every route I've done for 10 years in Anasazi velcro, except for The Promise which I did in Katanas as my right foot wouldn't stick to the slopey edge on the crux in anasazi. There are many more things to work on first.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Yes, I should have said smearing.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):

I think the difference between high end and bottom end shoes has decreased. Yes shape changes to improve for some applications but the rubber etc is all pretty good these days.

Comfort is important, and so is belief that they'll do their job. Gotta have confidence that they'll stick, and then they will..... if paying £140 does this, and paying £45 does not, then pay the money, or your climbing will suffer.

Its all in the head.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):
Seconded. Fit is everything -- followed by the type of climbing you want to do and the foot placements needed (smearing, edging, heel-hooking, or overhangs where downturn helps -- bit like the lightweight strong cheap tent paradox, you can't have all of them). I climb in shoes apparently marketed at female feet, but they are the best fit I could find after trying nearly every brand/type in the shop.

In reply to Tony Naylor:

Those Boldrinis are a sweet ride, you don't see many of them around in the UK still

In reply to BarrySW19:
"Performance shoes" can make a difference even indoors but I doubt it is worth the expense and relative discomfort. We could debate forever the grade at which the improvement is noticeable and worth this sacrifice but it is most certainly not at HS. For me it cuts in at about E2 5c but for those who are better it is could be E5 6b etc. etc. To put it in perspective it's worth bearing in mind that back in the day routes up to VS, and sometimes harder,were most often climbed in "bendy" walking boots and sometimes Woolworths plimsoles for the more slabby delicate routes. These routes were graded accordingly so you would think if it made that big a difference they would all be downgraded with modern gear.

You obviously do not have a bottomless pit of money otherwise you would just buy some and see for yourself so my advice would be save your money until you get into the E grades and as others have said 6c on outdoor Sport.

Al

I notice some of the footholds I have most problems on indoors are 'scoops' (like if you took a teaspoon and scooped a narrow layer of ice-cream from a new tub, only rotated 90 degrees). Are these sorts of placements easier in 'performance' shoes, or is it just a case of practising them more?

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


I'm aware of this. But with my poor footwork I go through a lot of shoes, and don't see any harm trying something knew - as long as they're likely to fit.

In reply to BarrySW19:


More practice probably, unless the rubber has actually worn through, which obviously makes it less sticky. Try to get your heel low, but push into the dish all the same.

Some rubbers are stickier than others though. I think red chilli and evolv might be thought of as the stickiest, but they wear through the quickest too.

In reply to humptydumpty:

Core strength exercise and technique coaching will help poor footwork more than a new type of shoe, whether it fits or not.

In reply to John Roberts (JR):


That's great, but there's no harm asking about shoes, is there? Solutions are currently cheaper than Katanas on Amazon, so there are practical reasons to consider other models.

For my 2c, I think performance shoes are worth having if you care about our getting better, even indoors. Not necessarily down-turned, but sensitive precise shoes teach you to focus on and trust your feet - and that's an important lesson to ingrain into your climbing at a subliminal level. It does make sense to use old comfortable shoes for long arc sessions. But even for indoor warmups I like to use decent shoes and practise placing them precisely on specific parts of the (usually massive) footholds, as preparation ahead of pushing myself on harder stuff.

Try a route or Boulder problem a grade or two above your onsight limit in both precise shoes and intermediate shoes and you'll soon be saving money elsewhere.

Fit is everything though, and each brand seems to have an different feel. So if you haven't owned a few brands I'd definitely recommend trying on a couple of models from each major brand to see what feels good: Sportiva, Scarpa and 5.10 each have a great range of options.

In reply to valjean:

Thanks, interesting comparison.

It puzzles me that the manufacturers don't design them so that people could wear the same size in all their different shoes.

In reply to BarrySW19:

Go not to UKC for advice, for they will say both no and yes.

In reply to climbwhenready:

maybe