UKC

The life and times of a Petzl Nomic

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 alexm198 29 May 2015

I've owned a pair of Nomics for the last 18 months. In this time, I've done two seasons in Scotland, one month in the Alps and two week-long trips to Rjukan, making a grand total of 59 individual uses. While I was up in Aviemore this year, I noticed that when I weighted the picks of the axes, they produced an unsettling creaking noise. Naturally, I consulted Lyon (who distribute Petzl in the UK) to see what they thought. They recommended I sent them off for inspection, which I did.

A month down the line, I receive a letter from Lyon, along with my tools. They agree with me that the tools do produce a pretty awful creaking noise when loaded. They claim that this is due to some movement between the shaft and the head. No, not the pick, the head. I'd actually already assumed this to be the case, as I've heard of it happening to a number of other people's Nomics.

To cut a long and painful story short, it seems that Lyon consider a catastrophic defect like this one, caused after 59 single uses, to a pair of tools that would set someone paying retail price back an eye-watering £430, to be normal wear and tear, and as such, have offered nothing more than a recommendation that I retire the tools with immediate effect. Now, maybe I'm crazy, but I would have thought that using a tool for its intended purpose (mainly ice climbing with a bit of modestly-graded mixed climbing, as my UKC logbook will illustrate) for a mere 18 months, shouldn't result in a catastrophic failure of parts resulting in a need for its immediate retirement. Perhaps if I was Greg Boswell, I might expect to go through a pair of tools in this time, but I'm not. The idea that a top-of-the-range piece of PPE should fail after 18 months of light, sporadic use, seems utterly ridiculous to me. Even more ridiculous is the notion that this should be considered fair wear and tear, and therefore that I should be left with nothing but a slightly more professionally worded, 'chin up son, best buy another set'.

Has anybody had a similar experience with the Nomics or other Petzl tools? Maybe I'm asking too much, but it doesn't feel like it right now. Lyon claim that mixed climbing is exclusively to blame for the accelerated wear on the tools, but I've not heard of anyone's BD or Grivel tools failing. I don't really know what I'm hoping for here, but suffice it to say that unless this does turn out to be an actual material/manufacturing defect, I won't be buying equipment from Petzl again.
Post edited at 19:20
1
 jezb1 29 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

Sounds like a pretty poor show that.
 alastairbegley 29 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

I had a good experience with I damaged my quark by walking with it, however another UKC member had a different experience: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=579663
 ColdWill 29 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

Same same, my first pair had the same thing but I sent them back because of the handle recall. The replacements now do the same but much worse. Haven't bothered trying to send them in as I know I'll get the same response you did. My friends old style all black Nomics are still going strong and he's really hammered them for a long time so I think it has to be a change to the shaft wall thickness or the new head. Hopefully they'll come out with a replacement soon. It a shame as I have a bunch of picks and hammers ect I can't use now.
 climber34neil 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

I had a similar conversation with the person I was climbing with while up at the CIC in march. He had "broke" 3 pairs of nomics doing nothing more than they are intended for and over a short period of time with a similar response from petzel which we all felt was unreasonable of them. The result was switching to vipers for most stuff and fusions for mixed . Doesn't really help you much apart from confirm that your not alone in your experience and maybe swap to something else? BD fuel?
In reply to alexm198:

Many years ago, I used to climb with Charley Mosser Pulsars.

After my first season (24 routes), the head wobbled, returned them via shop to Charlet. They re glued them, replaced single rivet, commenting they had been abused mixed climbing, something they weren't designed for!

Same happened again after following season, returned them again, Charlet re glued etc, similar comments followed.

Third season same again, same problem, fixed and returned in time for fourth season.

It was during this season the bolts securing the pick had sheared through alloy head on the one with hammer, pick lying flat against shaft! It was only after then had they suggested retiring them, since they had expired their serviceable life (80+ routes , 3 summer trips & 1 winter trip alpine). They suggested returning the adze tool, for their records, offering me 50% off a new pair of Charlet tools............... I bought Simond Piranhas.

Stuart

 Graham 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

Many years ago I bought a pair of Quark Ergos - the original one, circa 2004. After less than 2 years, the handle became loose on one tool, such that the shaft and head would shake when swinging it, a few weeks later it happened to the other. I sent them back to Petzl and they told me that the tools were still safe to climb on and even though you could air-swing them and feel the whole tool rattle, they wouldn't do anything for me. Pretty lame, I thought.
 Sharp 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:
Sorry to hear another nomic victim. along with many others I know I wouldn't consider buying a petzl ice tool, they have some serious quality issues and if your trusting your life to a tool there's no point paying a premium price for a tool that is clearly not fit for purpose. There are cheaper tools out there which don't break as easily. It's a shame for petzl really as they came up with a well designed, well balanced and popular tool but they've shot themselves in the foot by using poor quality materials, manufacture and giving poor service which denies the issues.
Post edited at 11:23
OP alexm198 30 May 2015
In reply to climber34neil:

Good to know I'm not alone on this one. Really quite blown away by the customer service (or lack thereof) that people seem to be receiving on this issue. The Nomic is a fantastic tool, by far the best thing I've climbed with, but that's no excuse for Petzl to leave so many customers high and dry. Made me chuckle that, when asked, Lyon couldn't give me a single example of when the blanket 3-year guarantee that Petzl put on all their products would actually be useful for an ice tool.

Think I'm going to jump ship to Black Diamond!
 JJL 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

I feel your pain.
And it will encourage me when I'm tempted to moan about my Piranha and Chacal being heavy and 30 years old.
 Hay 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:
Do Nomics not have some disclaimer in them about being 'Ice Tools'?
Has always seemed a bit odd to exclude modern training methods and modern climbing styles from the warranty coverage on a tool so obviously destined for both...
They're probably some decent glue and rivet away from sorting it out.
Would imagine Nomic III will be resolved.
 planetmarshall 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:
The Petzl warranty has 2 exclusions which appear to be relevant

1. normal wear
2. damage due to use of product for which it is not designed

Lyon appear to be claiming (2), and indeed the tool is specifically referred to as an "Ice Tool" in their marketing materials - I can't see any official reference to using the tools for mixed climbing. However, I'm no expert, but it would seem all you would need to do is find some example in a Petzl video or of a Petzl athlete using the tools for mixed climbing and you would have a case, if that's the way you wanted to go.

Edit:

Ok, Petzl's own marketing materials show the tools being used for Mixed Climbing, so I don't see how they can argue that they shouldn't be used for that purpose. (See youtube.com/watch?v=Axb78MT1OyQ& from 4:14). If this was me ( and I have a pair of Nomics that have not, yet, exhibited this problem ), I'd be kicking up a shitstorm about them not being fit for the purpose that their own marketing material is promoting.
Post edited at 13:45
 goose299 30 May 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

a two second google search reveals this

'To make the most of his time in France, he decided to sink his ice axes into "Nuit Blanche" and "Tequila Stuntman," two well-known ice and mixed routes along the Argentiere Glacier (Chamonix).'

http://www.petzl.com/en/Sport/News/2015-4-20/Hee-Yong-Park--ice-and-mixed-c...
 planetmarshall 30 May 2015
In reply to goose299:

Thanks, see also edit to my post above.
 buffalo606 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

With regard to Quarks and Nomics, this is listed on Petzl website:

Interchangeable ICE pick is tapered at the tip (3 mm) for easy penetration, even in cold ice. Its shape allows stable hooking on both ice and rock.

They also sell a Dry pick accessory for dry tooling.

Some dealers also list a 3 Year Guarantee.


 Hay 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:
Just to play Devil's Advocate for a minute...
Your costs are really about £7.50 per use for a piece of equipment that take lots of use/abuse.
What do folks think would be expected life?

£7.50 per use (or £430 in 2.5 years) seems okay when compared to the attrition rate of say mtb components.

Bruce
4
 goose299 30 May 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

Yeh, i saw it as soon as my post went up
 Dell 30 May 2015
In reply to Hay:

I sort of think the same thing, metal will fatigue from impact over time, rivets will break and glue will always work loose. Tools that get a bashing are subject to wear and tear, like anything else.
 Oli 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

Other than the creaking noise, is there actually anything wrong with them?

Lyon were always going to recommend that they are retired in order to cover their own arse. I suspect they'd do the same with almost any other equipment returned to them.

I'd just carry on using them and keep an eye on the head.
OP alexm198 30 May 2015
In reply to Hay:

I see what you're saying, but really the fact that the tools are expensive just adds insult to injury.

The real matter at hand here is the fact that Petzl/Lyon refuse to take responsibility for the fact that a top-spec bit of protective equipment (and that's what it is, we do entrust our lives to these tools in certain situations) has failed before even half the supposed warranty period has elapsed, when the user has been doing nothing other than what the tool is intended for.

Ultimately, stating that the tools come with a 3 year guarantee alongside the promotional videos that others have found, demonstrating their use as a hard mixed climbing tool, is at the very least, immensely misleading.
 itsThere 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

I wonder which parts of the nomic are common to other tools which could then see the same fault.

Any good bike company would at least offer discount crash replacement.
 Jamie Wakeham 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

What does the retailer say? Under the SoGA, your contract was with them, not with the importer or the manufacturer.

I'd be going straight to them and asking for replacement. Yes, you'd have to prove that it was a manufacturing fault, but actually Lyon's statement that this is 'normal wear and tear' might be on your side here.
 climber34neil 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

It's the way forward! I've not had any issues and not heard of anyone having any issues with bd tools, and after using a pair of quarks last year I can safely say I wouldn't change from bd just for pure build quality. As far as customer service is concerned I have no idea how they would stack up against petzl as never had cause to call them!
 Sharp 30 May 2015
In reply to Hay:
2.5 years
ice tools £430
helmet - £60
harness - £60
ropes - £200
clothing - £500
ice screws - £400
boots - £300
crampons - £150
rock rack - £1000

£3100

£7.50 a go doesn't sound bad but lets just be thankful the rest of your gear lasts a bit longer. If you had to replace it at the same rate as petzl axes you'd be very poor indeed even by mountain bikers' standards!

I don't know what the expected fair life span of an axe is. I use grivel alp wings, they're old and battered but I know if I threw them off the top of a cliff they'd be good to go by the time I got to the bottom and I expect you can say the same for modern grivel tools. Like you say, ice axes take a lot of hammer they should be the most robust piece of kit you own not the most delicate.
Post edited at 20:12
 alasdair19 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

this problem has gone round the houses but petzl are giving you the same answer they gave a couple of bmg guides.

They had a chat with the bmc gear person too. Petzl no longer describe it as a tool for mixed climbing partly as a result
OP alexm198 30 May 2015
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
Could you explain what you mean about the normal wear and tear? I haven't actually had much contact with the retailer. Usually I would go direct to the manufacturer with matters concerning PPE, but, if it makes a difference, in this particular case I returned the tools via my employer (an outdoors retailer).

Where I work, any climbing equipment we sell comes with the disclaimer that the retailer cannot take returns even on unused PPE due to the fact that if we resell, we have to be able to guarantee it hasn't been tampered with. Would contracts involving PPE be the same under the SoGA?
Post edited at 20:20
 planetmarshall 30 May 2015
In reply to alasdair19:

> They had a chat with the bmc gear person too. Petzl no longer describe it as a tool for mixed climbing partly as a result

Maybe not but they are still promoting it as such in their advertising material, so any claim of 'accelerated wear and tear due to.mixed climbing' just doesn't hold water.

 Jamie Wakeham 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

As far as I know (and I am not an expert by any means, though I've used SoGA more than once), the fact that the axes are PPE has no bearing on this at all. Sure, they couldn't be returned and resold, but if they're defective this was never on the cards anyway. I don't see that their being PPE reduces your rights under SoGA in any way.

SoGA states that goods must be of reasonable quality and last for a reasonable amount of time. If they fail in the first 12 months, the onus is on the retailer to prove that the fault was caused by the purchaser. After that, it reverses, and the onus is on the purchaser to show that the fault was inherent in the goods.

So, you take them back to the retailer and tell them that they're defective and you want repair or replacement. It's not reasonable that axes should fail under light use in 18 months. As it's been more than 12 months, they will likely argue that you have misused them and they are not liable. This is where you point out that your usage has been entirely within the remit shown by Petzl's advertising, and also show them that Lyon said this was just 'wear and tear'. I cannot imagine that it's reasonable that normal wear and tear should knacker a £400 pair of axes in such a short time, and you can also show that other, similar axes last much longer under similar conditions.

If they baulk at that, I'd be heading straight for the small claims court.



 DaveHK 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

It's clear there's a pretty serious issue with Nomics and equally clear that Petzl have decided to cut their losses and not honour warranty claims. A dangerous choice but I'd imagine the decision was taken by the money men / corporate lawyers.
MarkJH 30 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

> Where I work, any climbing equipment we sell comes with the disclaimer that the retailer cannot take returns even on unused PPE due to the fact that if we resell, we have to be able to guarantee it hasn't been tampered with. Would contracts involving PPE be the same under the SoGA?

Discretionary returns (for on-premises sales) are a separate matter and up to the retailer. Selling faulty or inadequate goods is a breach of contract and would always have to be rectified by the retailer (regardless of whether it was a manufacturing/ design fault). The retailer, in turn, would claim from the manufacturer under their own contract.

There is no pre-defined time limit, after which you cant exercise this right; it depends on what a reasonable expectation of life-span might be (dependent on use/ age etc). 18 months of moderate use would seem entirely unsatisfactory to me (for an ice axe), and I would possibly be tempted to make a fuss about it.
In reply to alexm198:

I had the same problem with Lyon regarding a Petzl Quark that had been used twice 18 Months ago. There is a UKC thread somewhere.

Basically they don't want to know/don't give a shit.

I don't see how Petzl can morally show Ueli Steck using Nomic whilst climbing the Secret on the Ben in their adverts and then not replace to tools when they break.

I eventually got a replacement from Go Outdoors who I purchased the tools from.

Moral of the story is buy: DMM, Grivel or BD.
 Jamie Wakeham 30 May 2015
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

> I eventually got a replacement from Go Outdoors who I purchased the tools from.

This is the key. Your contract is with the retailer - pursue them, not the importer. They are the ones with the legal obligations to you. And I really can't see a small claims court not siding with you on this, if you get tell your side well.

We can hope that, if enough retailers get p*ssed off with having to refund on broken tools, they might send some sort of message back to Petzl.
 alasdair19 30 May 2015
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

petzl argument goes like this

I sold you a ice climbing tool.

you keep hitting rocks with it

you've broken it

how worn are the picks

I'm sorry we never said it's designed to hit rocks
OP alexm198 30 May 2015
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Okay so how would one go about approaching this? Obviously I could go to the retailer and tell them what has happened, but given that I've had to contact them in order to get an invoice number for the transaction (needed for the customer return to Lyon), they know that I've already been in touch with the distributor.

To go back and ask the retailer to sort it out for me seems a bit 'mummy said no so I'll ask daddy'.
 Jamie Wakeham 30 May 2015
In reply to alasdair19:
I presume you mean retailer, not Petzl? There's no point in chasing Petzl over this - the law will only support you chasing the retailer.

I have no personal interest in this (I do happen to have a set of Nomics, but they're original version and as far as I can tell, fine). But if this were me, and the retailer tried to tell me that these weren't supposed to be used as mixed tools, I'd just point them straight at Petzl's advertising and say 'yes, they are'.

The more I look at this, the more I think it needs someone to take it to the small claims court once a retailer refuses to replace them.

EDIT as I crossed with the OP's post: you are utterly within your rights to go to the retailer; in fact, they are the only people you should go to over this. I am not at all surprised that Lyon won't deal with this, because under UK law that's not their place. You have no contract with the manufacturer or the importer, only with the retailer. Don't feel bad about pushing them for the refund - they should be able to contractually claim it back from Lyon anyway, who should in turn claim from Petzl.
Post edited at 23:51
 itsThere 31 May 2015
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I thought it was 1 year for the retailer to deal with it then after that it was manufacturer warranty which good retailers would do for you. Still need proof of purchase to show when you bought it.
 alasdair19 31 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

your potentially screwed. Petzl have said the axe isn't defective. i think you'll lose in a small claims court. You have a contract with the retailer. if you read the description for the nomics on their website it states ice, dry tooling and mountaineering.

your claim is on not fit for purpose sold. tricky as you were mixed climbing. Moan to the retailer. for the price to them of a replacement set of tools its not worth instructing lawyers
 HeMa 31 May 2015
In reply to alasdair19:

he'd lose on the grounds that they're defective. but if he claims not fit for purpose -> done deal. Petzl own material is going against them, showing people doing hard mixed routes with them and then there is the 3 year warranty -> ie. the tool should last at least 3 years.
In reply to alasdair19:

> petzl argument goes like this

> I sold you a ice climbing tool.

> you keep hitting rocks with it

> you've broken it

> how worn are the picks

> I'm sorry we never said it's designed to hit rocks

You say, stop using this video to promote your products: youtube.com/watch?v=uG95yGRaooY&

 ColdWill 31 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

I think we should book mark this thread alongside BD pick breakage as I always comment whenever these topic comes up and I'm starting to feel like a broken record now.
My Grivel Takoons had way more abuse and are still going strong so it's not like a tool con't be made that handles the abuse.
Do other similar Petzl tools offer the same, I've heard of Quarks doing similar but don't know about Ergos, does anybody in the uk use Ergos?
 TobyA 31 May 2015
In reply to ColdWill:

My original Quarks did about a decade of every winter weekend sort of use, mainly but not solely ice. One of the spikes has a tiny bit of play in it (handle rivet broken?) But still perfectly usable. I never had problems with my Pulsars either although Postie Stuart climbs much harder than me!
 Timmd 31 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:

http://www.e-climb.com/121-452-thickbox/axe-cryo-2.jpg

It strikes me that some/any method of avoiding the need for a rivet at the head of the ice axe could be a step forward in design, with rivets and glue not being adjustable, and perhaps being things which are always going to degrade over time during usage.

Assuming the axe is well enough designed using finite element software, there'd be no need to have metal fatigue due to usage, which is the other thing which can plague ice climbing gear.
 Timmd 31 May 2015
In reply to TobyA:
Or mixed rock & ice climbing gear, that is.
Post edited at 12:11
 Jamie Wakeham 31 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

The warranty is a red herring here. No warranty, whether honoured or not, can trump your rights.

If this is a thing that's known to happen, why don't a bunch of people with knackered Nomics band together, and agree that they'll split the costs* of one of them to take their retailer to the small claims court? Once you have one judgement that the axes should last more than 18 months, then everyone can take up their own cases with an awful lot more confidence - the small claims court doesn't use precedent as such, but being able to piont to previous cases is still enormously powerful.

* zero assuming you win, of course. The reassurance would be that you'd split the costs if you lost.
 Hay 31 May 2015
I think this is all on a hiding to nothing.
Things wear out, esp when smashed into granite.
If that's the kind of climbing you like then buy different axes next time.
I'm willing to bet that lots of people who bought Nomics also picked up DMM Switches but thought 'nah...too heavy'.

Bruce






1
 itsThere 31 May 2015
In reply to alexm198: Has anyone cracked one open to inspect round the single rivet.

I think you should take it to a small machine shop and ask them if they can open it up to inspect round the rivet. Has anyone else done this to remove internal damage from the list of possible causes.
 CacCarnBeag 31 May 2015
In reply to alexm198:

My mate is on I think his 3rd pair of Nomics, due to bits breaking. Again, light use.

Another mate has used BD Fusions (the old orange ones) for nearly a decade with no issues. These are really good if you climb loads of mixed, you could prob get a 2nd hand pair cheap somewhere. The pommell is all metal so no issus with it breaking like on the plasticy nomic ones.
 ColdWill 04 Jun 2015
In reply to alexm198:

If anyone want to see what a Nomic looks like with the head removed have a look here. Next epoxy, drill and rivet and should be good to go.
http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/coldwill/library/nomic?sort=3&page=1
 cliff shasby 04 Jun 2015
In reply to ColdWill:
nowt wrong with the head on my ergos,used them for 3 years now,apart from a very slight wobble in the adjustable hand rest thing,dont know why they changed this i had a pair of the original nomics and there was nothing wrong with the rest.

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