This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Franco.
Well done on climbing what may well be your hardest route. It's probably taken months of training, dieting and sacrifice. I fully understand what that means. The mental challenge of putting yourself in that position, the risk, the possible outcomes, everything in the balance.
But. I still believe you need to step outside. Go beyond. Test yourself on the creations of others. It is after all, what defines how we assess true ability.
There are many national, nay international routes of great importance on these fine isles, put up by well travelled and seasoned rock athletes, who all agree on the standards required over multiple disciplines. Go try the benchmarks. Get the evidence and the doubters will be proven wrong. I will be proven wrong and be the first to hold up my hand.
Until that day.
Andy F
Well done on climbing what may well be your hardest route. It's probably taken months of training, dieting and sacrifice. I fully understand what that means. The mental challenge of putting yourself in that position, the risk, the possible outcomes, everything in the balance.
But. I still believe you need to step outside. Go beyond. Test yourself on the creations of others. It is after all, what defines how we assess true ability.
There are many national, nay international routes of great importance on these fine isles, put up by well travelled and seasoned rock athletes, who all agree on the standards required over multiple disciplines. Go try the benchmarks. Get the evidence and the doubters will be proven wrong. I will be proven wrong and be the first to hold up my hand.
Until that day.
Andy F
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In reply to andy farnell:
Obviously you're welcome to believe what you want but it's worth noting that many climbers who know what they are talking about have been on Franco's routes and found the grading to be pretty good (often on the stiff side). Also most people who've climbed with him have seen him pull some fairly ridiculous moves out of the bag, on certain styles of climbing he is exceptional.
I'm sure this won't change your mind judging by your stubborn track record, but as someone who doubts Franco's ability, you are in a minority.
Not that any of this matters, obviously Franco's entitled to propose grades for his new routes, and only people who repeat them can really contest them.
Obviously you're welcome to believe what you want but it's worth noting that many climbers who know what they are talking about have been on Franco's routes and found the grading to be pretty good (often on the stiff side). Also most people who've climbed with him have seen him pull some fairly ridiculous moves out of the bag, on certain styles of climbing he is exceptional.
I'm sure this won't change your mind judging by your stubborn track record, but as someone who doubts Franco's ability, you are in a minority.
Not that any of this matters, obviously Franco's entitled to propose grades for his new routes, and only people who repeat them can really contest them.
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In reply to andy farnell:
For a minute then I thought you may have decided to grow up but then I scrolled down and realised it was the same sh!t on a different day.
Ah well.
For a minute then I thought you may have decided to grow up but then I scrolled down and realised it was the same sh!t on a different day.
Ah well.
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In reply to andy farnell:
Franco for king of /ukc/
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
Franco for king of /ukc/
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
http://lo.tarnobrzeg.pl/pliki/zdjecia/fra2.jpg
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In reply to andy farnell:
When I read the title I thought you were reliving the Spanish Civil War, then I realised you were trying to start your own.......
When I read the title I thought you were reliving the Spanish Civil War, then I realised you were trying to start your own.......
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In reply to Trangia:
This will go down in climbing history as the greatest rivalry of our time. You mark my words.
This will go down in climbing history as the greatest rivalry of our time. You mark my words.
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In reply to andy farnell:
Perhaps you could get on Franco's routes and tell us what what grade they should be? Until that day ...
Perhaps you could get on Franco's routes and tell us what what grade they should be? Until that day ...
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In reply to andy farnell:
Until that day, what??
I'm un/disinterested in these grades and grading them because they are so far above what I could ever climb. But I do find it curious that you are so obsessed with whether one person can grade a route correctly that you post repeatedly about it. What if Franco has got things a bit wrong? So what? Or if he has them right. Again, so what?
> Until that day.
Until that day, what??
I'm un/disinterested in these grades and grading them because they are so far above what I could ever climb. But I do find it curious that you are so obsessed with whether one person can grade a route correctly that you post repeatedly about it. What if Franco has got things a bit wrong? So what? Or if he has them right. Again, so what?
Post edited at 08:57
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In reply to andy farnell:
I know what you're saying but... what do think about the routes of Fred Rouhling or Barnabé Fernandez now their routes have been validated as being more or less as hard as they claimed they were?
I know what you're saying but... what do think about the routes of Fred Rouhling or Barnabé Fernandez now their routes have been validated as being more or less as hard as they claimed they were?
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In reply to The New NickB:
Now this is really the place for one of those Popcorn munching emoticons ....
Popcorn ..... check
Beer ..... check
Slippers ....... check
Phone on silent ..... check
You may proceed
Now this is really the place for one of those Popcorn munching emoticons ....
Popcorn ..... check
Beer ..... check
Slippers ....... check
Phone on silent ..... check
You may proceed
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In reply to andy farnell:
A couple of thoughts:
1. This is a forum thread, not an open letter.
2. It doesn't really make a point or cite anything specific, just contains a lot of snyde comments.
3. What's it got to do with you really?
My personal view is that you need to grow up, get over it and move on. Or perhaps you are just trying to be the Katie Hopkins of UKC and you get some kind of thrill from being a d*ck.
A couple of thoughts:
1. This is a forum thread, not an open letter.
2. It doesn't really make a point or cite anything specific, just contains a lot of snyde comments.
3. What's it got to do with you really?
My personal view is that you need to grow up, get over it and move on. Or perhaps you are just trying to be the Katie Hopkins of UKC and you get some kind of thrill from being a d*ck.
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In reply to andy farnell:
Well done Franco, getting on with good hard leads and new routing and pioneering 'retro-trad'. Looks like an excellent addition to the moors. Uplifting to see someone pushing the boat out on the sharp end.
Andy, this does you no credit, and you really should let it go.
Well done Franco, getting on with good hard leads and new routing and pioneering 'retro-trad'. Looks like an excellent addition to the moors. Uplifting to see someone pushing the boat out on the sharp end.
Andy, this does you no credit, and you really should let it go.
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In reply to andy farnell:
Why should it be up to Franco to prove anything. If it really means that much to you, then it's up to you (or someone who's capable of climbing the route) to prove him wrong. The last time this happened, Franco was largely vindicated by one of the country's best trad climbers, so why keep on banging on? Leaving aside all this grading bollocks, just on a human level, it's sad and mean.
Why should it be up to Franco to prove anything. If it really means that much to you, then it's up to you (or someone who's capable of climbing the route) to prove him wrong. The last time this happened, Franco was largely vindicated by one of the country's best trad climbers, so why keep on banging on? Leaving aside all this grading bollocks, just on a human level, it's sad and mean.
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In reply to andy farnell:
I propose that andy farnell is really Franko Cookson on a dummy account and is brilliantly perpetuating his own marketing machine.
I propose that andy farnell is really Franko Cookson on a dummy account and is brilliantly perpetuating his own marketing machine.
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In reply to andy farnell:
People are free to grade as they wish,and to try or not try others' routes.
As long as there is honesty about the style of the ascent,and a mention of essential gear,if considered necessary.
I remember not being too impressed by some of the Yorkshire highballers in the late 70's when I met them in the Peak,but their efforts in Yorks were amazing. What people do is really only a matter for them,even if they put photos and 'spray' on their blogs. Posterity will sort out what really is impressive.Instead of telling others what you think they should do,why not get better yourself?If someone is pushing their own grade,that deserves respect,not a slagging.To really get noticed it's best to do new routes on established crags,where the projects are well known.However,obscure crags often offer the richer pickings.
People are free to grade as they wish,and to try or not try others' routes.
As long as there is honesty about the style of the ascent,and a mention of essential gear,if considered necessary.
I remember not being too impressed by some of the Yorkshire highballers in the late 70's when I met them in the Peak,but their efforts in Yorks were amazing. What people do is really only a matter for them,even if they put photos and 'spray' on their blogs. Posterity will sort out what really is impressive.Instead of telling others what you think they should do,why not get better yourself?If someone is pushing their own grade,that deserves respect,not a slagging.To really get noticed it's best to do new routes on established crags,where the projects are well known.However,obscure crags often offer the richer pickings.
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In reply to andy farnell:
In all honesty Andy, I think the only person you're winding up and aggravating, is yourself. Franco is probably just having a chuckle at it all.
These routes, whatever the grades finally settle at, are obviously hard, and beyond the large majority of us - including probably yourself.
Let it go, before you give yourself an aneurysm.
In all honesty Andy, I think the only person you're winding up and aggravating, is yourself. Franco is probably just having a chuckle at it all.
These routes, whatever the grades finally settle at, are obviously hard, and beyond the large majority of us - including probably yourself.
Let it go, before you give yourself an aneurysm.
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In reply to andy farnell:
I think this thread is just Andy Farnell's way of testing out whether the new "dislike" feature actually works!
I think this thread is just Andy Farnell's way of testing out whether the new "dislike" feature actually works!
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In reply to andy farnell: You were hoping people would agree with you, but it appears that everyone thinks you're a rather sad and bitter individual.
You also seem to be inappropriately obsessed by an attractive younger man - what's up with that?
Your hilariouly inept campaign against him is simply spiteful and nasty, and that's how you come across as a person. You must be eaten up with jealousy and envy whilst spending all your time thinking about ways of "getting" Franco, of making him sorry (for something, who knows what) and I rather suspect it isn't working and that you alone are wallowing in this bile and anger.
You also seem to be inappropriately obsessed by an attractive younger man - what's up with that?
Your hilariouly inept campaign against him is simply spiteful and nasty, and that's how you come across as a person. You must be eaten up with jealousy and envy whilst spending all your time thinking about ways of "getting" Franco, of making him sorry (for something, who knows what) and I rather suspect it isn't working and that you alone are wallowing in this bile and anger.
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In reply to andy farnell:
Why don't you go and give divine moments of truth a blast yourself Johnny big taters?
Why don't you go and give divine moments of truth a blast yourself Johnny big taters?
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In reply to jon:
Yes and it was also by a climber that notoriously undergrades hard trad routes, I'd like to say case closed but I somewhat doubt it!
> The last time this happened, Franco was largely vindicated by one of the country's best trad climbers, so why keep on banging on?
Yes and it was also by a climber that notoriously undergrades hard trad routes, I'd like to say case closed but I somewhat doubt it!
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In reply to andy farnell:
Didn't Jerry Moffat once say something about how the mark of a really good climber was to travel everywhere and try all the hard routes? Or is that sort of thing all a bit out of fashion these days?
Didn't Jerry Moffat once say something about how the mark of a really good climber was to travel everywhere and try all the hard routes? Or is that sort of thing all a bit out of fashion these days?
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In reply to Frank the Husky:
To be honest, I'm not sure you should describe Franco as an attractive younger man until you've checked out a decent number of well established attractive younger men in other areas of the country for comparison.
> You also seem to be inappropriately obsessed by an attractive younger man - what's up with that?
To be honest, I'm not sure you should describe Franco as an attractive younger man until you've checked out a decent number of well established attractive younger men in other areas of the country for comparison.
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In reply to andy farnell:
I´ve been climbing with Franco in the Frankenjura, his performance on the 9+ he did at the end of the day indicates E10 7a would be quite feasible for him with enough practice.
> But. I still believe you need to step outside. Go beyond. Test yourself on the creations of others. It is after all, what defines how we assess true ability.
I´ve been climbing with Franco in the Frankenjura, his performance on the 9+ he did at the end of the day indicates E10 7a would be quite feasible for him with enough practice.
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In reply to andy farnell:
I don't think I've EVER seen so much unity on a UKC thread. You could post an open letter supporting the grid bolting of Stanage and get more support than is on show here! Perhaps you could draw some conclusions from that, Mr Farnell.
I don't think I've EVER seen so much unity on a UKC thread. You could post an open letter supporting the grid bolting of Stanage and get more support than is on show here! Perhaps you could draw some conclusions from that, Mr Farnell.
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In reply to andy farnell:
I thought it was the done thing to climb the route oneself before slagging off the first ascensionist for over-grading?? Unless it's out of your league i guess, in which case hiding behind the keyboard and spouting a load of envy-fueled bile might be the most appropriate course of action?
I thought it was the done thing to climb the route oneself before slagging off the first ascensionist for over-grading?? Unless it's out of your league i guess, in which case hiding behind the keyboard and spouting a load of envy-fueled bile might be the most appropriate course of action?
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In reply to jimtitt:
This will still not be enough for AF.
You need to deliver proof that Franco has climbed at least 458,000 E10 routes, on at least 1,300 different crags, and all on the same bank holiday weekend?
> I´ve been climbing with Franco in the Frankenjura, his performance on the 9+ he did at the end of the day indicates E10 7a would be quite feasible for him with enough practice.
This will still not be enough for AF.
You need to deliver proof that Franco has climbed at least 458,000 E10 routes, on at least 1,300 different crags, and all on the same bank holiday weekend?
Post edited at 13:16
In reply to andy farnell:
Unless you really have some personal vendetta, it seems you have an unhealthy obsession with Franco which is making you look like a proper wierdo. Have you thought about stepping away from the computer for a while and doing something more wholesome than slagging off someone who you've likely never met?
Unless you really have some personal vendetta, it seems you have an unhealthy obsession with Franco which is making you look like a proper wierdo. Have you thought about stepping away from the computer for a while and doing something more wholesome than slagging off someone who you've likely never met?
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In reply to Mowglee: You're right, he has a personal vendetta. It all started over another high grade FA on the moors. Farnell is predictably tragic.
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In reply to Ramblin dave:
Brilliant Of course the organisation he worked for used to pay Frank to travel the regions to meet interesting climbers old and young: so he could easily have done just that.
Well done Franco (again).
Brilliant Of course the organisation he worked for used to pay Frank to travel the regions to meet interesting climbers old and young: so he could easily have done just that.
Well done Franco (again).
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In reply to jimtitt:
...Some say......that Franco is stonger than <hushed tones> Malcolm Smith </hushed tones>
...Some say......that Franco is stonger than <hushed tones> Malcolm Smith </hushed tones>
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In reply to Goucho:
Plus he's giving Franco a lot of publicity while making himself look a little bit 'keyboard warrior'.
> In all honesty Andy, I think the only person you're winding up and aggravating, is yourself. Franco is probably just having a chuckle at it all.
Plus he's giving Franco a lot of publicity while making himself look a little bit 'keyboard warrior'.
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
The telling part of Andy's post.
"Test yourself on the creations of others. It is after all, what defines how we assess true ability."
Grades are a measure of the route, not of the climber.
The telling part of Andy's post.
"Test yourself on the creations of others. It is after all, what defines how we assess true ability."
Grades are a measure of the route, not of the climber.
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In reply to Owen W-G:
The other thing I don't get is why Andy thinks Franco hasn't done this already? It sounds like his most recent route was discovered through the logbooks and not by Franco himself publicising it (I am willing to be corrected here).
I look forward to Andy providing proof of his ascents should Franco publicly climb something that would remove Andy's doubts.
The other thing I don't get is why Andy thinks Franco hasn't done this already? It sounds like his most recent route was discovered through the logbooks and not by Franco himself publicising it (I am willing to be corrected here).
I look forward to Andy providing proof of his ascents should Franco publicly climb something that would remove Andy's doubts.
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In reply to andy farnell:
I have no relevant expertise when it comes to grading hard climbs, but I do think Franco has missed a trick by not going old school and giving everything "diff".
I have no relevant expertise when it comes to grading hard climbs, but I do think Franco has missed a trick by not going old school and giving everything "diff".
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In reply to paul mitchell:
But you don't need to be honest about the grade of route then?
By publishing claims on the internet it then its in the public domain and people should be equally free to challenge or criticize what is written. That's very much the beauty of the internet.
That is true but a) that could take a long time on difficult routes and b) if</> people are being dishonest then I think people should be challenged and c) I'd prefer it if people were honest in the first place. (NB. Not saying there's any dishonesty in this case - I have no idea but that's what seems to be implied)
The 'slagging', if that's what you want to call it, - I think its more like questioning - is not about someone pushing themselves rather than the claims they're making. Two very different things.
> As long as there is honesty about the style of the ascent..
But you don't need to be honest about the grade of route then?
> What people do is really only a matter for them,even if they put photos and 'spray' on their blogs.
By publishing claims on the internet it then its in the public domain and people should be equally free to challenge or criticize what is written. That's very much the beauty of the internet.
> Posterity will sort out what really is impressive.
That is true but a) that could take a long time on difficult routes and b) if</> people are being dishonest then I think people should be challenged and c) I'd prefer it if people were honest in the first place. (NB. Not saying there's any dishonesty in this case - I have no idea but that's what seems to be implied)
> If someone is pushing their own grade,that deserves respect,not a slagging.
The 'slagging', if that's what you want to call it, - I think its more like questioning - is not about someone pushing themselves rather than the claims they're making. Two very different things.
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In reply to andy farnell:
I thought this was going to be tongue in cheek, and suspect you are trolling, if not you really have dug a really big hole for yourself yet again and should really let it lie.
I thought this was going to be tongue in cheek, and suspect you are trolling, if not you really have dug a really big hole for yourself yet again and should really let it lie.
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In reply to stp:
I don't believe that's what was being claimed at all. A grade has been claimed and I see no problem that this grade has been honestly estimated.
True, but then there is a big difference between taking a pop at someone and a qualified challenge. Anyone can have a pop at someone's grade, but a qualified challenge is much more involved and probably should be based on going having a look for yourself surely! The pseudo open letter by AF is nothing more than sniping.
If AF believes that FC is being DISHONEST then he should just come out and say it rather than sniping in a poorly constructed, whining post that simply comes across as bitter.
I'm not sure there are many on this thread that would agree with you. AF has not constructed any kind of "challenge" to what FC has climbed and logged. He has had a whine about FC's experience and, in a rather broad moan that is not dissimilar to trolling, has made certain implications about Franco's ability and integrity. Not a fair challenge at all in my book.
> But you don't need to be honest about the grade of route then?
I don't believe that's what was being claimed at all. A grade has been claimed and I see no problem that this grade has been honestly estimated.
> By publishing claims on the internet it then its in the public domain and people should be equally free to challenge or criticize what is written. That's very much the beauty of the internet.
True, but then there is a big difference between taking a pop at someone and a qualified challenge. Anyone can have a pop at someone's grade, but a qualified challenge is much more involved and probably should be based on going having a look for yourself surely! The pseudo open letter by AF is nothing more than sniping.
> That is true but a) that could take a long time on difficult routes and b) if</> people are being dishonest then I think people should be challenged and c) I'd prefer it if people were honest in the first place. (NB. Not saying there's any dishonesty in this case - I have no idea but that's what seems to be implied)
If AF believes that FC is being DISHONEST then he should just come out and say it rather than sniping in a poorly constructed, whining post that simply comes across as bitter.
> The 'slagging', if that's what you want to call it, - I think its more like questioning - is not about someone pushing themselves rather than the claims they're making. Two very different things.
I'm not sure there are many on this thread that would agree with you. AF has not constructed any kind of "challenge" to what FC has climbed and logged. He has had a whine about FC's experience and, in a rather broad moan that is not dissimilar to trolling, has made certain implications about Franco's ability and integrity. Not a fair challenge at all in my book.
In reply to andy farnell:
Still no response from the OP.
Decided to stay under that bridge or realised you're opinion widely differs from the rest of UKC?
Still no response from the OP.
Decided to stay under that bridge or realised you're opinion widely differs from the rest of UKC?
In reply to All:
In summary:
Bloke A climbed a bit of rock and said that it was really hard.
Bloke B doubts that the climb is as hard as Bloke A says that it is, and publicly questions the ability of Bloke A.
Loads of other blokes wade into an internet argument to say that "Bloke A's ace. Bloke B's a knob.".
In the midst of all this, I'm frankly astounded that all the blokes seem to be missing the important point connected with this whole affair; which is that Coel Hellier made a jokey comment that wasn't concerned with doubting the existence of God... That, my friends, is real progress.
In summary:
Bloke A climbed a bit of rock and said that it was really hard.
Bloke B doubts that the climb is as hard as Bloke A says that it is, and publicly questions the ability of Bloke A.
Loads of other blokes wade into an internet argument to say that "Bloke A's ace. Bloke B's a knob.".
In the midst of all this, I'm frankly astounded that all the blokes seem to be missing the important point connected with this whole affair; which is that Coel Hellier made a jokey comment that wasn't concerned with doubting the existence of God... That, my friends, is real progress.
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In reply to all: A few points
1) At no point have I questioned his ability to climb, his character or personality. I haven't even met the lad.
2) E10 is a huge grade of national importance. Neil Mawson put one up in Pembroke last year. Did I question that. No. Why? Neil has a track record of climbing many routes around that grade, around the country, both trad and sport.
3) Franco has no evidence of climbing routes around that grade, around the country. He has no benchmark, apart from his own routes, one of which has been repeated by someone able to grade it. That was downgraded.
4) The routes may well be the grade he claims. If he pops up the A1 and repeats some of the Northumberland E7/8/9's, which look to be similar in style to the N.York routes, fabulous. He will then, completely unequivocally have the evidence. I will then change my opinion on his ability to give an accurate grade to routes of national difficulty.
Andy F
1) At no point have I questioned his ability to climb, his character or personality. I haven't even met the lad.
2) E10 is a huge grade of national importance. Neil Mawson put one up in Pembroke last year. Did I question that. No. Why? Neil has a track record of climbing many routes around that grade, around the country, both trad and sport.
3) Franco has no evidence of climbing routes around that grade, around the country. He has no benchmark, apart from his own routes, one of which has been repeated by someone able to grade it. That was downgraded.
4) The routes may well be the grade he claims. If he pops up the A1 and repeats some of the Northumberland E7/8/9's, which look to be similar in style to the N.York routes, fabulous. He will then, completely unequivocally have the evidence. I will then change my opinion on his ability to give an accurate grade to routes of national difficulty.
Andy F
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In reply to andy farnell:
Great topic first time around. I can only imagine the depths we will plumb this time around!
Great topic first time around. I can only imagine the depths we will plumb this time around!
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In reply to andy farnell:
Let's tell the full story here. Downgraded following the addition of an extremely esoteric piece of protection on the crux. Credit to Dave Birkett for having the experience to see that possibility, but it does somewhat cloud the downgrading. I seem to remember, Dave having repeated the route was somewhat more generous in his consideration of the original grading than you.
> A few points
> 3) Franco has no evidence of climbing routes around that grade, around the country. He has no benchmark, apart from his own routes, one of which has been repeated by someone able to grade it. That was downgraded.
Let's tell the full story here. Downgraded following the addition of an extremely esoteric piece of protection on the crux. Credit to Dave Birkett for having the experience to see that possibility, but it does somewhat cloud the downgrading. I seem to remember, Dave having repeated the route was somewhat more generous in his consideration of the original grading than you.
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In reply to The New NickB:
Let's tell the full story here. Downgraded following the addition of an extremely esoteric piece of protection on the crux. Credit to Dave Birkett for having the experience to see that possibility, but it does somewhat cloud the downgrading. I seem to remember, Dave having repeated the route was somewhat more generous in his consideration of the original grading than you.
Here's the relevant News item: -
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68270
There's also a thread about it as well...
Let's tell the full story here. Downgraded following the addition of an extremely esoteric piece of protection on the crux. Credit to Dave Birkett for having the experience to see that possibility, but it does somewhat cloud the downgrading. I seem to remember, Dave having repeated the route was somewhat more generous in his consideration of the original grading than you.
Here's the relevant News item: -
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68270
There's also a thread about it as well...
In reply to andy farnell:
Oh come on, you know full well that you're wrong on that. Franco's grade was entirely reasonable for any normal rack, and that's what he graded it for. If anything, that episode confirmed Franco's grades.
> ... one of which has been repeated by someone able to grade it. That was downgraded.
Oh come on, you know full well that you're wrong on that. Franco's grade was entirely reasonable for any normal rack, and that's what he graded it for. If anything, that episode confirmed Franco's grades.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
You are entitled to your opinion. As am I. One summer and swallows...
Andy F
You are entitled to your opinion. As am I. One summer and swallows...
Andy F
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In reply to andy farnell:
Oh it's all so confusing, is it possible to like both at once? As my old maths teacher used to say "It'll all come out in the wash."
Oh it's all so confusing, is it possible to like both at once? As my old maths teacher used to say "It'll all come out in the wash."
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In reply to andy farnell:
Well look, Franco's grade for Hypocrisy of Moose was H7 6c, and he said "... I reckon it would be about E8 for the onsight ...". Dave Birkett top-roped it and said it "... would be E8 anywhere".
On Psykovsky's Sequins Franco originally gave it E10 7a. Dave Birkett confirmed the 7a, but "got a bomber piece of gear in one of the monos" and then took two leader falls on it. He graded it E8, but also noted that "Franco soloed it".
To anyone who knows the trad grading system (and I do realise that you're more of a boulder and sport climber) for any ascent without Birkett's "old piece of gear similar to a slider that he has filed down to fit in mono holds" E10 sounds pretty reasonable.
So, for two routes, Franco's accuracy of grading has been confirmed by one of the most qualified in the land to judge such grades. That's why there are currently 88 "dislikes" on your OP.
Well look, Franco's grade for Hypocrisy of Moose was H7 6c, and he said "... I reckon it would be about E8 for the onsight ...". Dave Birkett top-roped it and said it "... would be E8 anywhere".
On Psykovsky's Sequins Franco originally gave it E10 7a. Dave Birkett confirmed the 7a, but "got a bomber piece of gear in one of the monos" and then took two leader falls on it. He graded it E8, but also noted that "Franco soloed it".
To anyone who knows the trad grading system (and I do realise that you're more of a boulder and sport climber) for any ascent without Birkett's "old piece of gear similar to a slider that he has filed down to fit in mono holds" E10 sounds pretty reasonable.
So, for two routes, Franco's accuracy of grading has been confirmed by one of the most qualified in the land to judge such grades. That's why there are currently 88 "dislikes" on your OP.
24
I'm pretty sure Franco onsight soloed Star Wars in Pembroke, which makes him a climbing hero in my eyes
In reply to Coel Hellier: The OP has his opinion and it would appear that no amount of evidence to the contrary will change that. Someone above compared the OP to Katie hopkins and in a similar vein, we should afford The OP the same treatment - ignoring his need to be right by boycotting his threads and giving a shake of the head and a tut of derision as his suggestions.
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In reply to jimtitt:
Awesome.
> I´ve been climbing with Franco in the Frankenjura, his performance on the 9+ he did at the end of the day indicates E10 7a would be quite feasible for him with enough practice.
Awesome.
In reply to andy farnell:
Wasn't it only down graded due to the use of a filed down small slider in a mono pocket?
> You are entitled to your opinion. As am I. One summer and swallows...
> Andy F
Wasn't it only down graded due to the use of a filed down small slider in a mono pocket?
In reply to Coel Hellier:
Exactly, well said.
> Well look, Franco's grade for Hypocrisy of Moose was H7 6c, and he said "... I reckon it would be about E8 for the onsight ...". Dave Birkett top-roped it and said it "... would be E8 anywhere".
> On Psykovsky's Sequins Franco originally gave it E10 7a. Dave Birkett confirmed the 7a, but "got a bomber piece of gear in one of the monos" and then took two leader falls on it. He graded it E8, but also noted that "Franco soloed it".
> To anyone who knows the trad grading system (and I do realise that you're more of a boulder and sport climber) for any ascent without Birkett's "old piece of gear similar to a slider that he has filed down to fit in mono holds" E10 sounds pretty reasonable.
> So, for two routes, Franco's accuracy of grading has been confirmed by one of the most qualified in the land to judge such grades. That's why there are currently 88 "dislikes" on your OP.
Exactly, well said.
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In reply to Timmd:
That i´ve climbed with Franco in the Frankenjura, sure that´s awesome. We even did Frankie Goes To Frankenjura for the fun. 9+ in the Franken was awesome in about 1980.
> Awesome.
That i´ve climbed with Franco in the Frankenjura, sure that´s awesome. We even did Frankie Goes To Frankenjura for the fun. 9+ in the Franken was awesome in about 1980.
In reply to andy farnell:
Same old boring message. At least you've put it a bit more pleasantly this time.
Same old boring message. At least you've put it a bit more pleasantly this time.
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In reply to andy farnell: Have you ever been on any of Franco's routes? It's a bit hard to comprehend where you're coming from if not.
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In reply to andy farnell:
You just can't contain yourself, can you?
Get a grip and move on to some other forum. Go and be an armchair warrior there instead and leave this one to people who want to enjoy climbing, rather than keeping on dragging up some stupid, pathetic crusade they seem to have against someone who can climb harder than them.
You just can't contain yourself, can you?
Get a grip and move on to some other forum. Go and be an armchair warrior there instead and leave this one to people who want to enjoy climbing, rather than keeping on dragging up some stupid, pathetic crusade they seem to have against someone who can climb harder than them.
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In reply to Rampikino:
I agree to a point though through the history of climbing such snipes/challenges have been made frequently where a climber with no track record claims a new route of a very high grade. Fred Rouhling with Akira and Barnabé Fernandez with Chilam Balam are two of the more famous examples but there have been many, many more. In the past these doubts about a climber's claim have been spread by mostly by word of mouth and only occasionally getting copied into a magazine.
Firstly, even if AF's letter isn't the best written I think its still far better published here, on an open public forum with his name to it than the slow spread of rumours. That way it can be openly discussed by the climbing community and FC is free to respond too.
Also having a look at the route is firstly not going to be very practical since only a very few elite climbers could assess the real difficulty. Secondly it might be that the route is as hard as claimed but the climber didn't actually climb it. In that case an inspection of the route won't disprove the claim. This is what happened with Chilam Balam. There was no doubt about the difficulty of the line, it was whether Fernandez actually climbed it completely free.
I hear what you're saying and I agree a better challenge with some proper evidence would be much better. However its the nature of these things that such evidence is not usually available. Even if you see someone climbing and failing on a much easier route or problem it could still be down to a just a bad day, or being out of shape at that time, missing a hold or something else. Most climbers who make claims at the top level usually have a very obvious track record which at least proves they would be capable of their claim, even if it still doesn't prove it. I have to say I have no idea of FC's track record but I do think that for any climber if that's lacking and they then claim an extremely difficult ascent, doubts about it are pretty natural. E10 is a very, very big claim after all. Rhapsody aside its the hardest grade in this country, a level that only the very best of the best will ever achieve.
For pretty much all hard ascents these days there is video footage. If FC has video footage of his ascent then making it public that would surely go a long way to settling the matter. If he does not then I think that can only raise doubts even further.
> True, but then there is a big difference between taking a pop at someone and a qualified challenge. Anyone can have a pop at someone's grade, but a qualified challenge is much more involved and probably should be based on going having a look for yourself surely! The pseudo open letter by AF is nothing more than sniping.
I agree to a point though through the history of climbing such snipes/challenges have been made frequently where a climber with no track record claims a new route of a very high grade. Fred Rouhling with Akira and Barnabé Fernandez with Chilam Balam are two of the more famous examples but there have been many, many more. In the past these doubts about a climber's claim have been spread by mostly by word of mouth and only occasionally getting copied into a magazine.
Firstly, even if AF's letter isn't the best written I think its still far better published here, on an open public forum with his name to it than the slow spread of rumours. That way it can be openly discussed by the climbing community and FC is free to respond too.
Also having a look at the route is firstly not going to be very practical since only a very few elite climbers could assess the real difficulty. Secondly it might be that the route is as hard as claimed but the climber didn't actually climb it. In that case an inspection of the route won't disprove the claim. This is what happened with Chilam Balam. There was no doubt about the difficulty of the line, it was whether Fernandez actually climbed it completely free.
> He has had a whine about FC's experience and, in a rather broad moan that is not dissimilar to trolling, has made certain implications about Franco's ability and integrity. Not a fair challenge at all in my book.
I hear what you're saying and I agree a better challenge with some proper evidence would be much better. However its the nature of these things that such evidence is not usually available. Even if you see someone climbing and failing on a much easier route or problem it could still be down to a just a bad day, or being out of shape at that time, missing a hold or something else. Most climbers who make claims at the top level usually have a very obvious track record which at least proves they would be capable of their claim, even if it still doesn't prove it. I have to say I have no idea of FC's track record but I do think that for any climber if that's lacking and they then claim an extremely difficult ascent, doubts about it are pretty natural. E10 is a very, very big claim after all. Rhapsody aside its the hardest grade in this country, a level that only the very best of the best will ever achieve.
For pretty much all hard ascents these days there is video footage. If FC has video footage of his ascent then making it public that would surely go a long way to settling the matter. If he does not then I think that can only raise doubts even further.
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In reply to stp:
Huh? No-one is doubting that it has been climbed, not even Andy F. There are photos and witnesses. This tedious thread is just about the grading, a matter which is not settled by watching a video.
> For pretty much all hard ascents these days there is video footage. If FC has video footage of his ascent then making it public that would surely go a long way to settling the matter. If he does not then I think that can only raise doubts even further.
Huh? No-one is doubting that it has been climbed, not even Andy F. There are photos and witnesses. This tedious thread is just about the grading, a matter which is not settled by watching a video.
In reply to stp:
'...which at least proves they would be capable of their claim...'
Which would be the lowest level of evidence.
Haven't there been stories of top level climbers' FAs not being substantiated (grit and particularly Bamford springs to mind) and said climbers refusing to partner those honest individuals again as a result?
Past form isn't always a reliable marker for future performance.
'...which at least proves they would be capable of their claim...'
Which would be the lowest level of evidence.
Haven't there been stories of top level climbers' FAs not being substantiated (grit and particularly Bamford springs to mind) and said climbers refusing to partner those honest individuals again as a result?
Past form isn't always a reliable marker for future performance.
Post edited at 23:14
In reply to andy farnell:
The most disturbing thing in this whole affair is the news that Franco is now working as a teacher. His spelling has always been terrible. I fear for the younger generation.
The most disturbing thing in this whole affair is the news that Franco is now working as a teacher. His spelling has always been terrible. I fear for the younger generation.
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In reply to andy farnell: Andy why don't you get out of your very deep and comfy armchair and go and try the routes ?
I think Franco should be encouraged as its not easy developing new areas without the support of a thriving climbing scene which surrounds the key areas.
On a lighter note at least Francos toned down the leg wear.
I think Franco should be encouraged as its not easy developing new areas without the support of a thriving climbing scene which surrounds the key areas.
On a lighter note at least Francos toned down the leg wear.
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In reply to seankenny:
You think the ability of a person to be a talented and captivating teacher who imparts the most knowledge on children possible is based on their ability to spell? Hmm.
Re the thread- Coel has summed up the evidence that overwhelmingly supports Franco's claim of E10. He's clearly one of the boldest young climbers operating in the UK today. Can we stop this thread now and ask Andy Farnell to either repeat some of Franco's lines and offer his opinion on the grades, or shut the f*ck up.
You think the ability of a person to be a talented and captivating teacher who imparts the most knowledge on children possible is based on their ability to spell? Hmm.
Re the thread- Coel has summed up the evidence that overwhelmingly supports Franco's claim of E10. He's clearly one of the boldest young climbers operating in the UK today. Can we stop this thread now and ask Andy Farnell to either repeat some of Franco's lines and offer his opinion on the grades, or shut the f*ck up.
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In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
I think English spelling is hard and non-sensical, but one has to learn it. It's the most basic of academic tasks. We expect Andy F to put his money where his mouth is and do one of Franco's routes. I'd expect a teacher to put their money where their mouth is and perform a basic piece of learning, particularly if they are a humanities teacher.
Incidentally, how many of Franco's top end routes have been repeated? One, or two - I haven't followed this entirely. Seems a very small sample size to be confident of his grading given that he hasn't done a lot elsewhere at such a high level (as far as we know). It would be great to see him knocking out some really high standard routes elsewhere, not to prove his Moors esoterica is correctly graded, but because seeing good climbers on amazing climbs is just good, no?
> You think the ability of a person to be a talented and captivating teacher who imparts the most knowledge on children possible is based on their ability to spell? Hmm.
I think English spelling is hard and non-sensical, but one has to learn it. It's the most basic of academic tasks. We expect Andy F to put his money where his mouth is and do one of Franco's routes. I'd expect a teacher to put their money where their mouth is and perform a basic piece of learning, particularly if they are a humanities teacher.
Incidentally, how many of Franco's top end routes have been repeated? One, or two - I haven't followed this entirely. Seems a very small sample size to be confident of his grading given that he hasn't done a lot elsewhere at such a high level (as far as we know). It would be great to see him knocking out some really high standard routes elsewhere, not to prove his Moors esoterica is correctly graded, but because seeing good climbers on amazing climbs is just good, no?
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
OK that wasn't really clear to me from the OP. However I still think the video would show an awful lot about the route that a still photo won't convey. But of course, as often happens, people hang on to the vids until they can edit it into a pro quality documentary type of film which is understandable.
I also think Andy Farnell needs to be clearer about his doubts for the grade given the previous history of FC and E10 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtmgt7x_bOQ). Various climbers have been questioned about their ability and ascents in the past and whilst some have been shown to be dishonest, many have been vindicated.
So to Andy: Can you say a bit more about why you doubt the grade and especially in the context of the cases like Fred Rouhling and Barnabé Fernandez, both of whom didn't repeat cutting edge routes before putting up their own very hard routes.
OK that wasn't really clear to me from the OP. However I still think the video would show an awful lot about the route that a still photo won't convey. But of course, as often happens, people hang on to the vids until they can edit it into a pro quality documentary type of film which is understandable.
I also think Andy Farnell needs to be clearer about his doubts for the grade given the previous history of FC and E10 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtmgt7x_bOQ). Various climbers have been questioned about their ability and ascents in the past and whilst some have been shown to be dishonest, many have been vindicated.
So to Andy: Can you say a bit more about why you doubt the grade and especially in the context of the cases like Fred Rouhling and Barnabé Fernandez, both of whom didn't repeat cutting edge routes before putting up their own very hard routes.
In reply to stp:
Talk about muddying the waters. You are actually questioning whether he did it?????
Not even AF did that!
> For pretty much all hard ascents these days there is video footage. If FC has video footage of his ascent then making it public that would surely go a long way to settling the matter. If he does not then I think that can only raise doubts even further.
Talk about muddying the waters. You are actually questioning whether he did it?????
Not even AF did that!
In reply to seankenny:
Sorry Sean, I disagree with every part of that. Someone who struggles to spell correctly may be far more valuable to my future children from an educational point of view than someone who speak and writes to perfection. Spelling does not reflect at all on teaching ability. In fact i'd even argue it's your kind of mindset that keeps good teachers away from kids and keeps boring old farts long since past their prime trudging along and killing our kids interest in anything.
Regarding Franco's grading. Those routes that have been repeated have been pretty much on the mark. So frankly I think the burden of proof lies with those doubting and not with Franco. I don't see anyone doubting John Gaskins' grading with equally few repeats of his lines. I struggle to see the difference. Sorry.
Sorry Sean, I disagree with every part of that. Someone who struggles to spell correctly may be far more valuable to my future children from an educational point of view than someone who speak and writes to perfection. Spelling does not reflect at all on teaching ability. In fact i'd even argue it's your kind of mindset that keeps good teachers away from kids and keeps boring old farts long since past their prime trudging along and killing our kids interest in anything.
Regarding Franco's grading. Those routes that have been repeated have been pretty much on the mark. So frankly I think the burden of proof lies with those doubting and not with Franco. I don't see anyone doubting John Gaskins' grading with equally few repeats of his lines. I struggle to see the difference. Sorry.
Post edited at 11:13
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In reply to stp:
What do you think of John Gaskins' lines? Do you believe he did Violent New Breed or any of his ridiculously hard test pieces? There is no video evidence and in almost all cases, no spotter or belayer to vouch for him... there are pictures of Franco leading most of his lines and a video of him taking a pretty serious fall.
> For pretty much all hard ascents these days there is video footage. If FC has video footage of his ascent then making it public that would surely go a long way to settling the matter. If he does not then I think that can only raise doubts even further.
What do you think of John Gaskins' lines? Do you believe he did Violent New Breed or any of his ridiculously hard test pieces? There is no video evidence and in almost all cases, no spotter or belayer to vouch for him... there are pictures of Franco leading most of his lines and a video of him taking a pretty serious fall.
Post edited at 11:16
In reply to andy farnell:
I thought you might have a point but then saw he was wearing a rather fetching headband in the photo so your argument is invalid.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=259047
I thought you might have a point but then saw he was wearing a rather fetching headband in the photo so your argument is invalid.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=259047
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
It's actually a tricky question of how much spelling matters, given the obvious skill of writers like AKP who struggle with it. But... he's an outlier. I'd expect a teacher - along with other professionals - to have mastered a very basic academic skill, being as their job tends to be imparting academic skills. I'm just not comfortable with the idea teachers struggling with this. Sports teachers excepted, obviously.
Anyhow, if the kids from deprived parts of the world like Cleveland want good jobs, they will be in competition with kids from the rich south east, from private schools, where they will be taught to spell well by people who give a toss. For a lot of jobs, poor spelling is a filter. I don't want those poor kids to fail at the first hurdle.
Christ, I'm coming on all Gove aren't I? Shit the bed.
> Sorry Sean, I disagree with every part of that. Someone who struggles to spell correctly may be far more valuable to my future children from an educational point of view than someone who speak and writes to perfection. Spelling does not reflect at all on teaching ability. In fact i'd even argue it's your kind of mindset that keeps good teachers away from kids and keeps boring old farts long since past their prime trudging along and killing our kids interest in anything.
It's actually a tricky question of how much spelling matters, given the obvious skill of writers like AKP who struggle with it. But... he's an outlier. I'd expect a teacher - along with other professionals - to have mastered a very basic academic skill, being as their job tends to be imparting academic skills. I'm just not comfortable with the idea teachers struggling with this. Sports teachers excepted, obviously.
Anyhow, if the kids from deprived parts of the world like Cleveland want good jobs, they will be in competition with kids from the rich south east, from private schools, where they will be taught to spell well by people who give a toss. For a lot of jobs, poor spelling is a filter. I don't want those poor kids to fail at the first hurdle.
Christ, I'm coming on all Gove aren't I? Shit the bed.
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In reply to Morgan Woods:
...and (if I'm not mistaken) Ron Hills. Eighties throwback look almost complete, just needs some Hanwag crack specials!
> I thought you might have a point but then saw he was wearing a rather fetching headband in the photo so your argument is invalid.
...and (if I'm not mistaken) Ron Hills. Eighties throwback look almost complete, just needs some Hanwag crack specials!
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In reply to seankenny:
The porn film no one wants to see.
> Christ, I'm coming on all Gove aren't I? Shit the bed.
The porn film no one wants to see.
13
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
How are kids supposed to learn to write properly if their teachers hand out badly spelled notes and how is a teacher supposed to correct the kid's work for grammar and spelling errors if they can't spell themselves.
> You think the ability of a person to be a talented and captivating teacher who imparts the most knowledge on children possible is based on their ability to spell? Hmm.
How are kids supposed to learn to write properly if their teachers hand out badly spelled notes and how is a teacher supposed to correct the kid's work for grammar and spelling errors if they can't spell themselves.
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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
We're getting off topic here so this is my last on this however I just can't fathom how you guys seemingly think spelling and grammar are the things that matter in a teacher the most? Personally I think we should value critical thinking and a thirst for knowledge in our children and not how well they can write. Frankly if my future child had a teacher who confused 'they're, their and there' every now and then but my child enjoyed going to his/her lessons and nailed the exams then I would buy that teacher a drink, not criticise their spelling.
Obviously if the teacher is teaching spelling and grammar then I'll make an exception. But for any other subject at all... I don't really mind (as long as they capture the mind of my child).
I am not a teacher and don't know any/many teachers by the way.
> How are kids supposed to learn to write properly if their teachers hand out badly spelled notes and how is a teacher supposed to correct the kid's work for grammar and spelling errors if they can't spell themselves.
We're getting off topic here so this is my last on this however I just can't fathom how you guys seemingly think spelling and grammar are the things that matter in a teacher the most? Personally I think we should value critical thinking and a thirst for knowledge in our children and not how well they can write. Frankly if my future child had a teacher who confused 'they're, their and there' every now and then but my child enjoyed going to his/her lessons and nailed the exams then I would buy that teacher a drink, not criticise their spelling.
Obviously if the teacher is teaching spelling and grammar then I'll make an exception. But for any other subject at all... I don't really mind (as long as they capture the mind of my child).
I am not a teacher and don't know any/many teachers by the way.
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In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
They are not mutually exclusive.Clear communication, verbal and written, is a key skill in the both professional and personal arena. Spelling is part of that.
> We're getting off topic here so this is my last on this however I just can't fathom how you guys seemingly think spelling and grammar are the things that matter in a teacher the most? Personally I think we should value critical thinking and a thirst for knowledge in our children and not how well they can write.
They are not mutually exclusive.Clear communication, verbal and written, is a key skill in the both professional and personal arena. Spelling is part of that.
8
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
Possibly not the most important but clearly important. Apart from anything else, decent spelling and English is used as a proxy for judging (often silently) general education and knowledge in all sorts of situations. Assuming one aim of a school is to get pupils into university, good jobs etc., setting a high standard of literacy (and numeracy) is one thing teachers need to do.
> We're getting off topic here so this is my last on this however I just can't fathom how you guys seemingly think spelling and grammar are the things that matter in a teacher the most?
Possibly not the most important but clearly important. Apart from anything else, decent spelling and English is used as a proxy for judging (often silently) general education and knowledge in all sorts of situations. Assuming one aim of a school is to get pupils into university, good jobs etc., setting a high standard of literacy (and numeracy) is one thing teachers need to do.
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In reply to MG:
Exactly. It's one thing. It's not the be all and end all. Far more important in the grand scheme is the extent to which a teacher can connect with a child.
> setting a high standard of literacy (and numeracy) is one thing teachers need to do.
Exactly. It's one thing. It's not the be all and end all. Far more important in the grand scheme is the extent to which a teacher can connect with a child.
In reply to Postmanpat:
I didn't say that they were. This all started with my reply to the following:
"The most disturbing thing in this whole affair is the news that Franco is now working as a teacher. His spelling has always been terrible. I fear for the younger generation."
The point I'm apparently failing to make is that how well a teacher can spell is not a measure of how well they can teach.
Now I really must stop- this thread isn't about spelling!
EDIT: I'd like also just to mention I've some dyslexic friends who spell terribly however have done pretty well because they're intelligent people with enthusiasm in their respective subjects. With the advent of word processors, I'd postulate spelling isn't as important these days as it once was.
> They are not mutually exclusive.Clear communication, verbal and written, is a key skill in the both professional and personal arena. Spelling is part of that.
I didn't say that they were. This all started with my reply to the following:
"The most disturbing thing in this whole affair is the news that Franco is now working as a teacher. His spelling has always been terrible. I fear for the younger generation."
The point I'm apparently failing to make is that how well a teacher can spell is not a measure of how well they can teach.
Now I really must stop- this thread isn't about spelling!
EDIT: I'd like also just to mention I've some dyslexic friends who spell terribly however have done pretty well because they're intelligent people with enthusiasm in their respective subjects. With the advent of word processors, I'd postulate spelling isn't as important these days as it once was.
Post edited at 13:53
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
I think you're confusing what a teacher needs to do and what we expect a teacher should be able to do. In short, I'd expect a professional person to spell well in general (everyone makes boo boos now and again), and teachers are no exception. On the day-to-day stuff, connecting with children and getting them to learn are clearly important, but good spelling, grammar, basic numeracy and stuff should just be humming along in the background - stuff a teacher can do without thinking.
I am glad my silly off-the-cuff comment has attracted so much interest...!
I think you're confusing what a teacher needs to do and what we expect a teacher should be able to do. In short, I'd expect a professional person to spell well in general (everyone makes boo boos now and again), and teachers are no exception. On the day-to-day stuff, connecting with children and getting them to learn are clearly important, but good spelling, grammar, basic numeracy and stuff should just be humming along in the background - stuff a teacher can do without thinking.
I am glad my silly off-the-cuff comment has attracted so much interest...!
Post edited at 13:53
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In reply to seankenny:
Typically yes, I agree with this. I disagreed with your initial comment that our younger generation are doomed having teachers who can't spell well (Franco you cited here).
A snippet from you own past however... I had a calculus teacher at school who was rubbish at spelling and grammar (I mean really really shocking)- his name was Mr Walker... I was a set three maths student in year 10 who couldn't give two f*cks about maths and set three was taught by Mr Walker. This guy transformed my interest in the subject and as a consequence I was set one by the second half of year 11, did maths and further maths A levels (getting an A in both) and then did a degree in maths. The maths teachers I had previously were just so so so boring. Mr Walker was not- he connected with us all. But then again he couldn't spell for shit so probably best to get rid of him...
> but good spelling, grammar, basic numeracy and stuff should just be humming along in the background - stuff a teacher can do without thinking.
Typically yes, I agree with this. I disagreed with your initial comment that our younger generation are doomed having teachers who can't spell well (Franco you cited here).
A snippet from you own past however... I had a calculus teacher at school who was rubbish at spelling and grammar (I mean really really shocking)- his name was Mr Walker... I was a set three maths student in year 10 who couldn't give two f*cks about maths and set three was taught by Mr Walker. This guy transformed my interest in the subject and as a consequence I was set one by the second half of year 11, did maths and further maths A levels (getting an A in both) and then did a degree in maths. The maths teachers I had previously were just so so so boring. Mr Walker was not- he connected with us all. But then again he couldn't spell for shit so probably best to get rid of him...
Post edited at 14:00
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In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
Gentle sarcasm works so poorly on the internet. Despite this fact being widely known since 1995, it is still routinely ignored.
See above?
> Typically yes, I agree with this. I disagreed with your initial comment that our younger generation are doomed having teachers who can't spell well (Franco you cited here).
Gentle sarcasm works so poorly on the internet. Despite this fact being widely known since 1995, it is still routinely ignored.
> A snippet from you own past however... I had a calculus teacher at school who was rubbish at spelling and grammar (I mean really really shocking)- his name was Mr Walker... I was a set three maths student in year 10 who couldn't give two f*cks about maths and set three was taught by Mr Walker. This guy transformed my interest in the subject and as a consequence I was set one by the second half of year 11, did maths and further maths A levels (getting an A in both) and then did a degree in maths. The maths teachers I had previously were just so so so boring. Mr Walker was not- he connected with us all. But then again he couldn't spell for shit so probably best to get rid of him...
See above?
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In reply to seankenny:
Hmm, I'm not sure you can consider it sarcastic... hyperbolic maybe. With a mistake like that I hope you're not a teacher
Hmm, I'm not sure you can consider it sarcastic... hyperbolic maybe. With a mistake like that I hope you're not a teacher
Post edited at 14:51
In reply to seankenny:
Are there any particular words you've noticed me routinely spelling incorrectly? I am actually dyslexic, so if you have indeed noticed anything, I can add them to my list of words to re-learn.
Interesting idea that people with dyslexia aren't fit to be teachers. I do work hard to prepare stuff so I don't have to write during lessons, but obviously I'm slightly less rigorous on here. Out of interest, would you say people with other disabilities shouldn't be teachers? Maybe non-white people too? Or are you just saying that dyslexia doesn't exist and anyone with a diagnosis is just lazy?
Needless to say you wouldn't qualify as a teacher if you do believe any of the above statements.
Tough day for me ey? Climb a new route and as a result get told I'm a liar and unfit to be in my profession. No wonder I find it so easy to set out on death routes.
Are there any particular words you've noticed me routinely spelling incorrectly? I am actually dyslexic, so if you have indeed noticed anything, I can add them to my list of words to re-learn.
Interesting idea that people with dyslexia aren't fit to be teachers. I do work hard to prepare stuff so I don't have to write during lessons, but obviously I'm slightly less rigorous on here. Out of interest, would you say people with other disabilities shouldn't be teachers? Maybe non-white people too? Or are you just saying that dyslexia doesn't exist and anyone with a diagnosis is just lazy?
Needless to say you wouldn't qualify as a teacher if you do believe any of the above statements.
Tough day for me ey? Climb a new route and as a result get told I'm a liar and unfit to be in my profession. No wonder I find it so easy to set out on death routes.
65
2
In reply to Franco Cookson:
If it's any comfort Franco, as you'll have read, apart from the OP everyone else on the thread is very supportive of you and impressed with your latest achievement. I'll add my voice to that list. Chin up!
If it's any comfort Franco, as you'll have read, apart from the OP everyone else on the thread is very supportive of you and impressed with your latest achievement. I'll add my voice to that list. Chin up!
2
3
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Hopefully that's somewhat tongue in cheek. But... stuff can get to you. And there are people on here (albeit a tiny minority) who will pick and pick and pick until there's nothing left - if you let them. So don't.
A couple of years ago, I had a run-in with seankenny. I'm sure he's a fine, upstanding member of society - but I decided to avoid him like the plague.
Teaching's probably the best thing you could possibly do with your life. A really good teacher inspires others... and they, in turn, inspire others. The ripples go on and on.
In my life, I've had dozens of shit teachers. But I still remember one guy from 50 years ago. You could ask him anything and he'd come straight back - honest, erudite, wise, helpful. Although he never knew it, he made a huge difference to me.
As has been said, the vast majority of people, this time around, are supportive of you and more than a little proud of you, doing stuff that we can only dream of. In general, things have moved on from the nasty bullying you used to receive on here, some years ago. So maybe there's hope for all of us.
And, as you noted, it's ironic that grading on the moors is probably better than it's ever been - largely courtesy of your mates and you.
Just carry on translating your dreams into reality. Ultimately that's what matters.
Mick
> Tough day for me ey? Climb a new route and as a result get told I'm a liar and unfit to be in my profession. No wonder I find it so easy to set out on death routes.
Hopefully that's somewhat tongue in cheek. But... stuff can get to you. And there are people on here (albeit a tiny minority) who will pick and pick and pick until there's nothing left - if you let them. So don't.
A couple of years ago, I had a run-in with seankenny. I'm sure he's a fine, upstanding member of society - but I decided to avoid him like the plague.
Teaching's probably the best thing you could possibly do with your life. A really good teacher inspires others... and they, in turn, inspire others. The ripples go on and on.
In my life, I've had dozens of shit teachers. But I still remember one guy from 50 years ago. You could ask him anything and he'd come straight back - honest, erudite, wise, helpful. Although he never knew it, he made a huge difference to me.
As has been said, the vast majority of people, this time around, are supportive of you and more than a little proud of you, doing stuff that we can only dream of. In general, things have moved on from the nasty bullying you used to receive on here, some years ago. So maybe there's hope for all of us.
And, as you noted, it's ironic that grading on the moors is probably better than it's ever been - largely courtesy of your mates and you.
Just carry on translating your dreams into reality. Ultimately that's what matters.
Mick
17
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Bloody hell Franco. You're winning 150-nil!! Be happy
> Tough day for me ey? Climb a new route and as a result get told I'm a liar and unfit to be in my profession. No wonder I find it so easy to set out on death routes.
Bloody hell Franco. You're winning 150-nil!! Be happy
2
In reply to Franco Cookson:
That to my mind is a petty, over reactive and (particularly the last sentence) unbecoming response to what was a fairly flippant remark.
That to my mind is a petty, over reactive and (particularly the last sentence) unbecoming response to what was a fairly flippant remark.
1
11
In reply to seankenny:
'deprived parts of the world like Cleveland'
Deprived of what fresh air? or the M25?
'deprived parts of the world like Cleveland'
Deprived of what fresh air? or the M25?
Post edited at 17:55
2
In reply to Mick Ward:
In Sean's defence, not that he needs (or usually gets) my help, I think his initial comment was in jest and the subsequent discussion was not about Franco but about the importance of spelling in general.
Go franco!
> Hopefully that's somewhat tongue in cheek. But... stuff can get to you. And there are people on here (albeit a tiny minority) who will pick and pick and pick until there's nothing left - if you let them. So don't.
> A couple of years ago, I had a run-in with seankenny. I'm sure he's a fine, upstanding member of society - but I decided to avoid him like the plague.
>
>
In Sean's defence, not that he needs (or usually gets) my help, I think his initial comment was in jest and the subsequent discussion was not about Franco but about the importance of spelling in general.
Go franco!
2
In reply to Franco Cookson:
One of the primary schools I went to actually had a head teacher who believed dyslexic people were just stupid and lazy and treated them "accordingly". Years later I heard that he had found a job running a special needs department...
The 80s really were crap in many ways.
One of the primary schools I went to actually had a head teacher who believed dyslexic people were just stupid and lazy and treated them "accordingly". Years later I heard that he had found a job running a special needs department...
The 80s really were crap in many ways.
Post edited at 18:06
1
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
Actually I always thought Franco writes well and with some panache, particularly considering when he first started using UKC he was still at school, so I have no doubts about his teaching abilities. I'm actually doing the same teacher training course as Franco currently, although our paths have only crossed in a few lectures, not in our teaching placements. But by the by, I disagree with you about a teacher's literacy standards. Kids will not get a decent education if they finish school barely literate. As you teach, you are modelling to students in everything you do, so even if you are not an English teacher, you really have to try your best to be demonstrating correct language usage to them. It is becoming something more important in exams to, so just from that point of view you help them if you can help them to spell well. And a boring teacher is boring regardless of whether they can spell properly or not.
Anyway, having met Franco now, I can say he a gentleman of considerable stature and with arms that come down to his knees (well, almost); so when he says a "big span", I suspect he means "a f***in' HUGE span" for those of us of a more average stature! His H10 might be H11 for the less primate-ish amongst us.
Actually I always thought Franco writes well and with some panache, particularly considering when he first started using UKC he was still at school, so I have no doubts about his teaching abilities. I'm actually doing the same teacher training course as Franco currently, although our paths have only crossed in a few lectures, not in our teaching placements. But by the by, I disagree with you about a teacher's literacy standards. Kids will not get a decent education if they finish school barely literate. As you teach, you are modelling to students in everything you do, so even if you are not an English teacher, you really have to try your best to be demonstrating correct language usage to them. It is becoming something more important in exams to, so just from that point of view you help them if you can help them to spell well. And a boring teacher is boring regardless of whether they can spell properly or not.
Anyway, having met Franco now, I can say he a gentleman of considerable stature and with arms that come down to his knees (well, almost); so when he says a "big span", I suspect he means "a f***in' HUGE span" for those of us of a more average stature! His H10 might be H11 for the less primate-ish amongst us.
Post edited at 18:17
2
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
Seriously, anyone who has got through uni should know the bloody difference between they're, their and there! And like I said, spelling and grammar is becoming more important in exams these days.
> Frankly if my future child had a teacher who confused 'they're, their and there' every now and then but my child enjoyed going to his/her lessons and nailed the exams then I would buy that teacher a drink, not criticise their spelling.
Seriously, anyone who has got through uni should know the bloody difference between they're, their and there! And like I said, spelling and grammar is becoming more important in exams these days.
2
1
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
Gaskins achievements were over a decade ago and technology back then is nothing like what it is today. These days most school kids, at least secondary school kids own a smartphone with video capabilities. I've got two video devices that can record video that I don't even want or use: one is a stills camera with video capability and one on a tablet PC.
These days climbers video anything of note that they do because its so easy, in fact much stuff that is not particularly noteworthy and of interest to only a few. That is so completely different to the way things were when Gaskins made his ascents over 10 years ago is not a valid comparison.
If you doubt Gaskins' achievements there is a very good video interview with him that is worth watching. From that you can make you're own mind up. There was also independent eye witnesses to perhaps one of his best achievements which was long link on an attempt at freeing the old aid route Brandenburg Gate at Raven Tor.
Certainly if one were climbing something that is potentially one of the hardest routes in the country it would be absolutely normal to video it today and to not do so is so unusual you have to wonder why not. Lots of people would want to watch it, it would completely validate the ascent, it would cost nothing to make and could even make money from sponsors or advertisers.
> There is no video evidence and in almost all cases, no spotter or belayer to vouch for him...
Gaskins achievements were over a decade ago and technology back then is nothing like what it is today. These days most school kids, at least secondary school kids own a smartphone with video capabilities. I've got two video devices that can record video that I don't even want or use: one is a stills camera with video capability and one on a tablet PC.
These days climbers video anything of note that they do because its so easy, in fact much stuff that is not particularly noteworthy and of interest to only a few. That is so completely different to the way things were when Gaskins made his ascents over 10 years ago is not a valid comparison.
If you doubt Gaskins' achievements there is a very good video interview with him that is worth watching. From that you can make you're own mind up. There was also independent eye witnesses to perhaps one of his best achievements which was long link on an attempt at freeing the old aid route Brandenburg Gate at Raven Tor.
Certainly if one were climbing something that is potentially one of the hardest routes in the country it would be absolutely normal to video it today and to not do so is so unusual you have to wonder why not. Lots of people would want to watch it, it would completely validate the ascent, it would cost nothing to make and could even make money from sponsors or advertisers.
1
3
In reply to stp:
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Nobody, not even Andy Farnell (who has a history of criticising Franco) has claimed that Franco didn't climb the route!
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Nobody, not even Andy Farnell (who has a history of criticising Franco) has claimed that Franco didn't climb the route!
1
In reply to TobyA:
Seriously, anyone who has got through uni should know the bloody difference between to and too! Sorry, I know it was a typo, I just couldn't resist.
> It is becoming something more important in exams to, so just from that point of view you help them if you can help them to spell well.
Seriously, anyone who has got through uni should know the bloody difference between to and too! Sorry, I know it was a typo, I just couldn't resist.
6
1
In reply to TobyA:
I've got two degrees and still have not got a clue about grammar. Managed this far through life (50 this year). It really is not that important.
I've got two degrees and still have not got a clue about grammar. Managed this far through life (50 this year). It really is not that important.
2
In reply to Franco Cookson:
He's not worth the letters you type Franco. He clearly is jealous of your acheivements and to stoop as low as pointing out someone's dyslexia shows how much of a dick he is.
Top effort BTW.
He's not worth the letters you type Franco. He clearly is jealous of your acheivements and to stoop as low as pointing out someone's dyslexia shows how much of a dick he is.
Top effort BTW.
Post edited at 19:52
2
In reply to Tyler:
Hoisted in on my own petard indeed! Actually I hate writing on the board now I'm teaching, because you are immediately filled with self doubt over whether you can spell or not. This is made even worse by knowing that the super bright girl who writes like she's doing A levels even though she is only in Y8 it watching you like a hawk just waiting for you to slip up! If Franco has dyslexia this must be even worse, although like I said, I've always thought he writes rather stylishly, at least when doing it on a keyboard.
Hoisted in on my own petard indeed! Actually I hate writing on the board now I'm teaching, because you are immediately filled with self doubt over whether you can spell or not. This is made even worse by knowing that the super bright girl who writes like she's doing A levels even though she is only in Y8 it watching you like a hawk just waiting for you to slip up! If Franco has dyslexia this must be even worse, although like I said, I've always thought he writes rather stylishly, at least when doing it on a keyboard.
In reply to ChrisJD:
You might not be able to explain what a transitive verb but you obviously do have a clue about grammar because otherwise nothing you say would make any sense.
> It really is not that important.
You might not be able to explain what a transitive verb but you obviously do have a clue about grammar because otherwise nothing you say would make any sense.
1
In reply to Tyler:
"Seriously, anyone who has got through uni..."
Yuk! You mean varsity surely, old chap?
"Seriously, anyone who has got through uni..."
Yuk! You mean varsity surely, old chap?
1
1
In reply to TobyA:
Yeah. If only it worked like that. I work very hard to power through some bad dyslexia. I know the difference between the contraction and the other two, and with a bit of thought I can sort the other two homophones apart with some effort.
However I regularly type the wrong one and my brain quite insistently reads what it believes I have written. I am probably 10x more proficient at spotting the mistake in someone else's text than in mine. There are tricks and tips to combat this but it isn't easy. In the grand scheme of things the level of proof reading required goes far beyond that needed for a UKC posting, and if it really matters I have to beg a 3rd party to go over it.
That's why when I see grammar mistakes - particularly the dreaded homophones - on UKC I just let them slide right by.
Seriously, it's not that 17% of people have broken brains or a disability, it's that the English language is badly broken for use by 17% of people. It's time to fix the bloody language and replace it with something designed to fit many people, much better.
> Seriously, anyone who has got through uni should know the bloody difference between they're, their and there! And like I said, spelling and grammar is becoming more important in exams these days.
Yeah. If only it worked like that. I work very hard to power through some bad dyslexia. I know the difference between the contraction and the other two, and with a bit of thought I can sort the other two homophones apart with some effort.
However I regularly type the wrong one and my brain quite insistently reads what it believes I have written. I am probably 10x more proficient at spotting the mistake in someone else's text than in mine. There are tricks and tips to combat this but it isn't easy. In the grand scheme of things the level of proof reading required goes far beyond that needed for a UKC posting, and if it really matters I have to beg a 3rd party to go over it.
That's why when I see grammar mistakes - particularly the dreaded homophones - on UKC I just let them slide right by.
Seriously, it's not that 17% of people have broken brains or a disability, it's that the English language is badly broken for use by 17% of people. It's time to fix the bloody language and replace it with something designed to fit many people, much better.
Post edited at 20:12
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Franco - my sincerest apologies.
> Are there any particular words you've noticed me routinely spelling incorrectly? I am actually dyslexic, so if you have indeed noticed anything, I can add them to my list of words to re-learn.
Franco - my sincerest apologies.
4
In reply to Mick Ward:
Oh Michael, Michael, Michael, you do flounce so well. Kissy kissy.
> A couple of years ago, I had a run-in with seankenny. I'm sure he's a fine, upstanding member of society - but I decided to avoid him like the plague.
Oh Michael, Michael, Michael, you do flounce so well. Kissy kissy.
1
1
In reply to MG:
Can you name some of these situations? I'm particularly keen to hear examples of situations that preclude the use of Word's spellchecking function.
> Apart from anything else, decent spelling and English is used as a proxy for judging (often silently) general education and knowledge in all sorts of situations. Assuming one aim of a school is to get pupils into university, good jobs etc., setting a high standard of literacy (and numeracy) is one thing teachers need to do.
Can you name some of these situations? I'm particularly keen to hear examples of situations that preclude the use of Word's spellchecking function.
In reply to wintertree:
I think when typing anyone can mix up homophones, at least I certainly do and I've never thought I have any dyslexic tendencies. I totally agree that editing your own work is very hard, but it's the sort of skill that we should be teaching kids as part of their education and obviously modelling correct language usage is part of that.
Not quite a homophone, but effect and affect are words I struggled with until my late 30s, so I guess everyone keeps on having to learn somethings.
I think when typing anyone can mix up homophones, at least I certainly do and I've never thought I have any dyslexic tendencies. I totally agree that editing your own work is very hard, but it's the sort of skill that we should be teaching kids as part of their education and obviously modelling correct language usage is part of that.
Not quite a homophone, but effect and affect are words I struggled with until my late 30s, so I guess everyone keeps on having to learn somethings.
1
In reply to Morty:
Spellcheck only catches misspellings, not when people mix up homophones or just use the wrong word. I see kids do work on computers where there aren't spelling errors in a sentence, but it still doesn't make sense, or at least not much sense.
> I'm particularly keen to hear examples of situations that preclude the use of Word's spellchecking function.
Spellcheck only catches misspellings, not when people mix up homophones or just use the wrong word. I see kids do work on computers where there aren't spelling errors in a sentence, but it still doesn't make sense, or at least not much sense.
2
And so an argument about grading descends into an argument about grammar. UKC: an introduction.
9
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Shut it, Big Nose!
> And so an argument about grading descends into an argument about grammar. UKC: an introduction.
Shut it, Big Nose!
2
In reply to Clauso:
*Your* nose is going to be three foot wide across your face when I've finished with you.
*Your* nose is going to be three foot wide across your face when I've finished with you.
In reply to TobyA:
I have a spelling checker, it came with my PC,
It plane lee Marx four my revue miss steaks eye can knot sea.
Style of thing...
> Spellcheck only catches misspellings, not when people mix up homophones or just use the wrong word. I see kids do work on computers where there aren't spelling errors in a sentence, but it still doesn't make sense, or at least not much sense.
I have a spelling checker, it came with my PC,
It plane lee Marx four my revue miss steaks eye can knot sea.
Style of thing...
1
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Gonna sit on me, huh, fat arse?... Who nose, anyhow; you might be right. Either way, I'd still be better looking than you are.
> *Your* nose is going to be three foot wide across your face when I've finished with you.
Gonna sit on me, huh, fat arse?... Who nose, anyhow; you might be right. Either way, I'd still be better looking than you are.
Post edited at 23:04
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
And so an argument about about grammar descends into a bar room brawl.
Congrats on the climb - well done
And so an argument about about grammar descends into a bar room brawl.
Congrats on the climb - well done
1
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Some of the best teachers are dyslexic. They have a clue about what the kids find difficult and how to put strategies in place to overcome those difficulties.
Fwiw I'm not dyslexic but I don't find spelling easy. I find the best approach is to be straight with the kids and ask them to check my spelling when I write on the board. I make it clear to them that literacy and spelling is important to me and that its ok not to find everything easy but if you dont know how to spell something you check. I don't think that is a bad thing to show them. Anyway I mainly just do sums so thats fine.
Some of the best teachers are dyslexic. They have a clue about what the kids find difficult and how to put strategies in place to overcome those difficulties.
Fwiw I'm not dyslexic but I don't find spelling easy. I find the best approach is to be straight with the kids and ask them to check my spelling when I write on the board. I make it clear to them that literacy and spelling is important to me and that its ok not to find everything easy but if you dont know how to spell something you check. I don't think that is a bad thing to show them. Anyway I mainly just do sums so thats fine.
2
In reply to Morty:
A job interview. I'm not agreeing with the poster, or saying it's OK to judge people based on their English, I'm just naming one situation.
> Can you name some of these situations? I'm particularly keen to hear examples of situations that preclude the use of Word's spellchecking function.
A job interview. I'm not agreeing with the poster, or saying it's OK to judge people based on their English, I'm just naming one situation.
In reply to Oceanrower:
Mindblowingly myopic I'd have thought.
> Are you being deliberately obtuse? Nobody, not even Andy Farnell (who has a history of criticising Franco) has claimed that Franco didn't climb the route!
Mindblowingly myopic I'd have thought.
In reply to ChrisJD:
I regularly reject candidates for work at my company if their grammar is substandard. As email seems to have completely replaced the telephone as the primary sales tool, good, written English has become a basic requirement. On first acquaintance, the potential customer has nothing on which to judge our salespeople other than the quality of their writing. Spelling, however, is of secondary importance. I believe there is widespread acceptance that spelling is more of a challenge for some and we all understand spellcheck is a false friend.
Good grammar makes us money and it (along with hard work and drive) will get you a well paid job with my firm. Don't dismiss it so lightly.
Edited for spelling
> I've got two degrees and still have not got a clue about grammar. Managed this far through life (50 this year). It really is not that important.
I regularly reject candidates for work at my company if their grammar is substandard. As email seems to have completely replaced the telephone as the primary sales tool, good, written English has become a basic requirement. On first acquaintance, the potential customer has nothing on which to judge our salespeople other than the quality of their writing. Spelling, however, is of secondary importance. I believe there is widespread acceptance that spelling is more of a challenge for some and we all understand spellcheck is a false friend.
Good grammar makes us money and it (along with hard work and drive) will get you a well paid job with my firm. Don't dismiss it so lightly.
Edited for spelling
Post edited at 08:35
2
In reply to Oceanrower:
I don't think its clear from the letter what his accusations are. You can read it literally or you can infer a subtext which might make more sense. It's up to Andy to clarify this.
I think the fact he hasn't come back on this topic suggests he realises that he's massively jumped the gun on this and made a huge mistake. I imagine he's probably now extremely embarrassed about the whole thing and wants to forget about it all asap.
I don't think its clear from the letter what his accusations are. You can read it literally or you can infer a subtext which might make more sense. It's up to Andy to clarify this.
I think the fact he hasn't come back on this topic suggests he realises that he's massively jumped the gun on this and made a huge mistake. I imagine he's probably now extremely embarrassed about the whole thing and wants to forget about it all asap.
In reply to stp:
10 years ago was 2005, not 1995. I have video footage of me on a climb that was noteworthy to me at the time... in 2005. Violent New Breed was climbed in 2004. I made skateboarding videos in the years prior to that with fairly cheap and available tech- I'll admit the quality is a bit shit by today's standard. If John had wanted to have recorded VNB for example, he could have... and easily. If a 17 year old kid could get his hands on the kit... so could John.
Disagree. Ellis Butler Barker completed my 9 year old project in Cheddar Gorge a few weeks ago. It went at 8c and is the hardest in the Gorge and (I think) the hardest between the Peak and Anstey's Cove. There aren't even any photos other than one of him lowering off. Do I doubt him? Absolutely not.
I don't doubt John in the slightest. I am arguing precisely the opposite... that lack of video evidence wasn't grounds for suspicion then and it still isn't now . Additionally I'll add that lack of a video being posted online isn't evidence that there no such video in exists. I'll also add that John not quite managing Brandenburg Gate was one of the most disappointing things I can think of in climbing... I'd have loved for him to have done it.
Why do you feel that Franco did this for anyone other than himself? Climbing isn't about the publicity or validation for most of us... I suspect Franco is pretty pissed off about the whole thing. I wouldn't blame him if he took a 2006 Sharma approach of avoiding grading lines all together from here on.
> Gaskins achievements were over a decade ago and technology back then is nothing like what it is today.
10 years ago was 2005, not 1995. I have video footage of me on a climb that was noteworthy to me at the time... in 2005. Violent New Breed was climbed in 2004. I made skateboarding videos in the years prior to that with fairly cheap and available tech- I'll admit the quality is a bit shit by today's standard. If John had wanted to have recorded VNB for example, he could have... and easily. If a 17 year old kid could get his hands on the kit... so could John.
> These days climbers video anything of note that they do because its so easy, in fact much stuff that is not particularly noteworthy and of interest to only a few. That is so completely different to the way things were when Gaskins made his ascents over 10 years ago is not a valid comparison.
Disagree. Ellis Butler Barker completed my 9 year old project in Cheddar Gorge a few weeks ago. It went at 8c and is the hardest in the Gorge and (I think) the hardest between the Peak and Anstey's Cove. There aren't even any photos other than one of him lowering off. Do I doubt him? Absolutely not.
> If you doubt Gaskins' achievements there is a very good video interview with him that is worth watching. From that you can make you're own mind up. There was also independent eye witnesses to perhaps one of his best achievements which was long link on an attempt at freeing the old aid route Brandenburg Gate at Raven Tor.
I don't doubt John in the slightest. I am arguing precisely the opposite... that lack of video evidence wasn't grounds for suspicion then and it still isn't now . Additionally I'll add that lack of a video being posted online isn't evidence that there no such video in exists. I'll also add that John not quite managing Brandenburg Gate was one of the most disappointing things I can think of in climbing... I'd have loved for him to have done it.
> Lots of people would want to watch it, it would completely validate the ascent, it would cost nothing to make and could even make money from sponsors or advertisers.
Why do you feel that Franco did this for anyone other than himself? Climbing isn't about the publicity or validation for most of us... I suspect Franco is pretty pissed off about the whole thing. I wouldn't blame him if he took a 2006 Sharma approach of avoiding grading lines all together from here on.
Post edited at 09:27
In reply to abseil:
Bad spelling and grammar is a proxy for 'not educated and/or can't be bothered', it doesn't work all the time and it isn't fair to non-native speakers and people with dyslexia but it is very useful whenever there are too many people or organisations competing for your attention to be able to give everyone a fair hearing. If I have 12 papers to review for a conference and I've got 3 hours to do it then being able to reject one after reading the abstract and introduction because the grammar and spelling is rubbish means I have more time to spend on the others. Same if I have to choose 5 out of 20 applicants for an interview. My guess is that written language has evolved with complex rules for the same reason as spoken language has accents: providing a means to quickly categorise the speaker is one of its functions.
> A job interview. I'm not agreeing with the poster, or saying it's OK to judge people based on their English, I'm just naming one situation.
Bad spelling and grammar is a proxy for 'not educated and/or can't be bothered', it doesn't work all the time and it isn't fair to non-native speakers and people with dyslexia but it is very useful whenever there are too many people or organisations competing for your attention to be able to give everyone a fair hearing. If I have 12 papers to review for a conference and I've got 3 hours to do it then being able to reject one after reading the abstract and introduction because the grammar and spelling is rubbish means I have more time to spend on the others. Same if I have to choose 5 out of 20 applicants for an interview. My guess is that written language has evolved with complex rules for the same reason as spoken language has accents: providing a means to quickly categorise the speaker is one of its functions.
1
In reply to UKC:
No UKC Members can climb properly
No UKC members can grade properly
No UKC members can spel properly
No UKC member's can punctuate. properly
No UKC members can ride a bike properly
No UKC members can drive properly
No UKC members need hexs unless they winter climb (badly)
No UKC members need cams
No UKC members ever, ever, ever use a top rope
No UKC members can lead hard stuff so we top rope often
Grit ain't all it's cracked up to me
Kevin Pieterson is a bell end
Owls are the shittest bird (apart from Zebra Finches)
El Chorro is overrated
So is Verdon
If we can all accept these as universal truths and then realise that none of it matters then perhaps we'll all get along fine....We may even be making sweet love before too long. (although if we were we'd be shit at it)
No UKC Members can climb properly
No UKC members can grade properly
No UKC members can spel properly
No UKC member's can punctuate. properly
No UKC members can ride a bike properly
No UKC members can drive properly
No UKC members need hexs unless they winter climb (badly)
No UKC members need cams
No UKC members ever, ever, ever use a top rope
No UKC members can lead hard stuff so we top rope often
Grit ain't all it's cracked up to me
Kevin Pieterson is a bell end
Owls are the shittest bird (apart from Zebra Finches)
El Chorro is overrated
So is Verdon
If we can all accept these as universal truths and then realise that none of it matters then perhaps we'll all get along fine....We may even be making sweet love before too long. (although if we were we'd be shit at it)
8
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Thanks for your reply - all good and useful stuff.
> Bad spelling and grammar is a proxy for 'not educated and/or can't be bothered', it doesn't work all the time and it isn't fair to non-native speakers and people with dyslexia but it is very useful whenever there are....
Thanks for your reply - all good and useful stuff.
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
Thankfully not so myopic as to see that throwing snide, oblique insults to people you've never met on a web forum says far more about you than it does about me.
Thankfully not so myopic as to see that throwing snide, oblique insults to people you've never met on a web forum says far more about you than it does about me.
In reply to I can eat 50 eggs:
Might as well close the forum down now. Nothing left.......
> No UKC Members can climb properly
> No UKC members can grade properly
> No UKC members can spel properly
> No UKC member's can punctuate. properly
> No UKC members can ride a bike properly
> No UKC members can drive properly
> No UKC members need hexs unless they winter climb (badly)
> No UKC members need cams
> No UKC members ever, ever, ever use a top rope
> No UKC members can lead hard stuff so we top rope often
> Grit ain't all it's cracked up to me
> Kevin Pieterson is a bell end
> Owls are the shittest bird (apart from Zebra Finches)
> El Chorro is overrated
> So is Verdon
> If we can all accept these as universal truths and then realise that none of it matters then perhaps we'll all get along fine....We may even be making sweet love before too long. (although if we were we'd be shit at it)
Might as well close the forum down now. Nothing left.......
In reply to I can eat 50 eggs:
Hell for you then I'm afraid. Off you go.
> Shit! I totally forgot about God!!
Hell for you then I'm afraid. Off you go.
2
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
I don't disagree with much of what you say but at the moment unless Andy Farnell gets back to this topic fairly soon I think we can take his silence as an embarrassed retraction of his open letter and so further discussion about it is irrelevant.
I don't disagree with much of what you say but at the moment unless Andy Farnell gets back to this topic fairly soon I think we can take his silence as an embarrassed retraction of his open letter and so further discussion about it is irrelevant.
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
Off topic but:
I suspect that title would go to Endeavour, Hickish's thing in Blackers Hole, got a feeling it's probably pretty gnarly for 8c. Joint on grades anyway.
Off topic but:
> Disagree. Ellis Butler Barker completed my 9 year old project in Cheddar Gorge a few weeks ago. It went at 8c and is the hardest in the Gorge and (I think) the hardest between the Peak and Anstey's Cove.
I suspect that title would go to Endeavour, Hickish's thing in Blackers Hole, got a feeling it's probably pretty gnarly for 8c. Joint on grades anyway.
> I don't doubt John in the slightest.
Many do.In reply to stp:
I wasn't talking to you, I was talking about you and there was absolutely nothing oblique about it unlike your questioning of Franco's integrity in about the most insulting way possible.
> Thankfully not so myopic as to see that throwing snide, oblique insults to people you've never met on a web forum says far more about you than it does about me.
I wasn't talking to you, I was talking about you and there was absolutely nothing oblique about it unlike your questioning of Franco's integrity in about the most insulting way possible.
1
1
In reply to abarro81:
Ah you're probably right. Amazing accomplishment from Bob. Actually there is another 8c in Gorge but Ellis felt Fallingwater to be harder. You don't fancy giving it a go do you mate? Would be interested to hear your thoughts...
True.
> I suspect that title would go to Endeavour, Hickish's thing in Blackers Hole, got a feeling it's probably pretty gnarly for 8c. Joint on grades anyway.
Ah you're probably right. Amazing accomplishment from Bob. Actually there is another 8c in Gorge but Ellis felt Fallingwater to be harder. You don't fancy giving it a go do you mate? Would be interested to hear your thoughts...
> Many do.
True.
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
There's 2 others I think - Bristol's Got Talent and that one on the remnant. Both Savage's. Not down in Bristol much so doubt I'll get around to trying them, unless I end up down that way after finishing the PhD... Definitely will get on them if I do find myself back in the South though!
There's 2 others I think - Bristol's Got Talent and that one on the remnant. Both Savage's. Not down in Bristol much so doubt I'll get around to trying them, unless I end up down that way after finishing the PhD... Definitely will get on them if I do find myself back in the South though!
In reply to abarro81:
Ah, forgot about Bristol's Got Talent. Was thinking Deathstar and Fallingwater. Out of touch these days!
Yeah, keep me updated if you do head back that way. Could be persuaded to belay bunny.
/end hijack
Ah, forgot about Bristol's Got Talent. Was thinking Deathstar and Fallingwater. Out of touch these days!
Yeah, keep me updated if you do head back that way. Could be persuaded to belay bunny.
/end hijack
Post edited at 13:13
In reply to andy farnell:
Anybody remember when you were at primary school and wanted to show a girl that you liked her?
And you achieved this by punching her in the face and running away?
Or pulling her hair?
I reckon Andy *heart* Franco and this is his way of getting attention.
Anybody remember when you were at primary school and wanted to show a girl that you liked her?
And you achieved this by punching her in the face and running away?
Or pulling her hair?
I reckon Andy *heart* Franco and this is his way of getting attention.
4
In reply to andy farnell:
One swallow doesn't make a blow job?
Is that what you're suggesting?
> You are entitled to your opinion. As am I. One summer and swallows...
One swallow doesn't make a blow job?
Is that what you're suggesting?
Post edited at 14:20
In reply to stp:
Andy F has been stuck on this subject and talking in these terms for at least 2 years. You only have to search for when Franco has done new stuff in the past and see the threads arising from that. He hasn't been embarrassed or even apologetic in the past and certainly won't be at the moment.
Andy F has been stuck on this subject and talking in these terms for at least 2 years. You only have to search for when Franco has done new stuff in the past and see the threads arising from that. He hasn't been embarrassed or even apologetic in the past and certainly won't be at the moment.
In reply to Michael Gordon: I have no reason to apologise. I've asked a few questions and still not got the answers.
One more question actually. How many UK climbers have climbed E10 have got an all round history of hard climbing e.g. done known sport 8c and above and bouldered 8A or above?
McClure
McCloud
Pearson
Bransby?
Pasquill?
Caff?
Gaskins
Bentley?
Andy F
One more question actually. How many UK climbers have climbed E10 have got an all round history of hard climbing e.g. done known sport 8c and above and bouldered 8A or above?
McClure
McCloud
Pearson
Bransby?
Pasquill?
Caff?
Gaskins
Bentley?
Andy F
5
1
In reply to andy farnell:
I've re-read your OP and see no questions. Your ongoing obsession with Franco on this forum makes you look like an obsessive weirdo
> I have no reason to apologise. I've asked a few questions
I've re-read your OP and see no questions. Your ongoing obsession with Franco on this forum makes you look like an obsessive weirdo
6
3
In reply to andy farnell:
John Arran also, I think.
> I have no reason to apologise. I've asked a few questions and still not got the answers.
> One more question actually. How many UK climbers have climbed E10 have got an all round history of hard climbing e.g. done known sport 8c and above and bouldered 8A or above?
John Arran also, I think.
In reply to andy farnell:
>" I have no reason to apologise."
Yes you have. From your armchair you are diss-ing someone's proposed grade for their new route. That's not how it works. You only get to downgrade a route after you've climbed it.
What Mclure & Macleod etc have done is irrelevant here. Franco has climbed the route, until someone else, who perhaps motivated to prove him wrong, gets off their arse and does the route, it is what he says it is.
>" I have no reason to apologise."
Yes you have. From your armchair you are diss-ing someone's proposed grade for their new route. That's not how it works. You only get to downgrade a route after you've climbed it.
What Mclure & Macleod etc have done is irrelevant here. Franco has climbed the route, until someone else, who perhaps motivated to prove him wrong, gets off their arse and does the route, it is what he says it is.
3
1
In reply to andy farnell:
I know next to nothing about Franco, but he does seem to be a young man who loves his local area and is super motivated to climb and push standards on his local turf. I can see a parallel between young Franco and maybe a young Andy F who was doing something similar in his mid twenties around the Lancashire quarries. I was wondering Andy how many E6's you'd ticked before climbing Midas Touch for example at Anglezarke which is graded E6 6c or E7 without side runners?
> But. I still believe you need to step outside. Go beyond. Test yourself on the creations of others. It is after all, what defines how we assess true ability.
I know next to nothing about Franco, but he does seem to be a young man who loves his local area and is super motivated to climb and push standards on his local turf. I can see a parallel between young Franco and maybe a young Andy F who was doing something similar in his mid twenties around the Lancashire quarries. I was wondering Andy how many E6's you'd ticked before climbing Midas Touch for example at Anglezarke which is graded E6 6c or E7 without side runners?
2
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
I was!... Good on you
> Sorry, I thought you were "doing" Life of Brian and joined in.
I was!... Good on you
In reply to andy farnell:
Loving the way you have got your name in that list.
>
> McClure
> McCloud
> Pearson
> Bransby?
> Pasquill?
> Caff?
> Gaskins
> Bentley?
> Andy F
Loving the way you have got your name in that list.
9
In reply to andy farnell:
Hmm. The other skinny keen youth in your list there did exactly what you suggest Franco should have done - climb several national testpieces before putting up their own. And that didn't turn out very well for grading accuracy. From what I can glean from Franco's blog he's taking a carefully considered approach which suggests his grades are sensible.
Hmm. The other skinny keen youth in your list there did exactly what you suggest Franco should have done - climb several national testpieces before putting up their own. And that didn't turn out very well for grading accuracy. From what I can glean from Franco's blog he's taking a carefully considered approach which suggests his grades are sensible.
3
1
In reply to Adam Long:
Well all the pubic sector workers ( teachers ) are now back at work as half terms over.
So i assume the normal old fashion tradition of trusting other peoples new route grades , till proven otherwise , can resume normal service.
Well until the pubic sector workers have their long summer holiday that is.
Well all the pubic sector workers ( teachers ) are now back at work as half terms over.
So i assume the normal old fashion tradition of trusting other peoples new route grades , till proven otherwise , can resume normal service.
Well until the pubic sector workers have their long summer holiday that is.
2
2
In reply to nbonnett:
What the fcuk!
> Well all the pubic sector workers ( teachers ) are now back at work as half terms over.
> Well until the pubic sector workers have their long summer holiday that is.
What the fcuk!
1
In reply to nbonnett:
Didn't you know that doubting is due to be privatised this year?
Apparently it's going to be a lot more efficient, and casting aspersions will be far quicker and more cost effective than it was under the old public sector system.
Didn't you know that doubting is due to be privatised this year?
Apparently it's going to be a lot more efficient, and casting aspersions will be far quicker and more cost effective than it was under the old public sector system.
1
In reply to davidbeynon:
Dave,
My apologies on pulling you up over your spelling , but as banker is now spelt wanker , public is spelt pubic.
Unless your a pubic sector worker then you'd obviously spell public . ( without reference to index linked pensions and long boring school holidays. - )
Dave,
My apologies on pulling you up over your spelling , but as banker is now spelt wanker , public is spelt pubic.
Unless your a pubic sector worker then you'd obviously spell public . ( without reference to index linked pensions and long boring school holidays. - )
1
In reply to nbonnett:
My apologies, but I haven't been able to afford proper splelling since it was privatised last year.
My apologies, but I haven't been able to afford proper splelling since it was privatised last year.
1
In reply to andy farnell:
I've only done a handful of new routes, and nothing harder than Severe. But when grading them, I don't grade relative to routes at the other end of the country; I grade relative to other routes at the crag, or at least in the local area. Although in theory grades are standard across the country, we all know that some areas are harder than others. For instance, NY Moors routes tend to be lot harder than Peak District routes of the same grade...
I've only done a handful of new routes, and nothing harder than Severe. But when grading them, I don't grade relative to routes at the other end of the country; I grade relative to other routes at the crag, or at least in the local area. Although in theory grades are standard across the country, we all know that some areas are harder than others. For instance, NY Moors routes tend to be lot harder than Peak District routes of the same grade...
2
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