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OK I don't ride a motor bike but this morning a motorcyclist followed me a long the road and I could see in my mirror that his lower body clothing consisted solely of denim shorts and trainers. My immediate thought was that whilst more substantial leg wear might not prevent a broken leg in an impact it could minimise or prevent serious lacerations. Surely a question of common sense. Over to the bikers.
Post edited at 10:47
In reply to mypyrex: I did a cycle race recenly with 300 entrants. At least half had no lights and were dressed in black. These people (like your biker) are simply idiots and will likely get what's coming to them.
In reply to mypyrex:
I used to pop out at lunctimes in work trousers, which are about as protective as not wearing them at all, but 2 miles each way at 25-30mph in hardly any traffic is a considered risk compared to 1/2 hour of walking around in the summer in leathers.
I generally wouldn't ride in any less than jeans and boots (and proper jacket and gloves) and only then on local roads at low speeds.
That said, I've topped 50mph on my road bike in a thin sheet of Lycra.
I always wince when I see a motorcyclist with no gloves, though!
I used to pop out at lunctimes in work trousers, which are about as protective as not wearing them at all, but 2 miles each way at 25-30mph in hardly any traffic is a considered risk compared to 1/2 hour of walking around in the summer in leathers.
I generally wouldn't ride in any less than jeans and boots (and proper jacket and gloves) and only then on local roads at low speeds.
That said, I've topped 50mph on my road bike in a thin sheet of Lycra.
I always wince when I see a motorcyclist with no gloves, though!
Post edited at 11:05
In reply to mypyrex:
It is certainly a risk, but probably a minor one compared to the act of riding a motorbike in the first place! Helmet is most important, followed by gloves, then jacket and trousers. None of them are as important as riding sensibly and doing all you can to avoid accidents.
In this country, I always wear full gear because it is no inconvenience. In hot countries, I have occasionally just used gloves, and helmet, but it does feel wrong.
I once tried to resuscitate someone who had obviously come off his bike at very high speed (broken helmet, massive chest injuries etc) wearing light denim/ t-shirt. I was surprised at how limited the injuries to his skin were... On the other hand, I know someone who lost three fingers in a relatively low speed moped accident (no gloves).
A bit like helmet wearing/ soloing in climbing in my opinion. Take the risks you are happy with and don't complain if it goes wrong.
It is certainly a risk, but probably a minor one compared to the act of riding a motorbike in the first place! Helmet is most important, followed by gloves, then jacket and trousers. None of them are as important as riding sensibly and doing all you can to avoid accidents.
In this country, I always wear full gear because it is no inconvenience. In hot countries, I have occasionally just used gloves, and helmet, but it does feel wrong.
I once tried to resuscitate someone who had obviously come off his bike at very high speed (broken helmet, massive chest injuries etc) wearing light denim/ t-shirt. I was surprised at how limited the injuries to his skin were... On the other hand, I know someone who lost three fingers in a relatively low speed moped accident (no gloves).
A bit like helmet wearing/ soloing in climbing in my opinion. Take the risks you are happy with and don't complain if it goes wrong.
In reply to Frank the Husky:
A cycle race with 300 entrants? That's bigger than the Tour! What was it?
A cycle race with 300 entrants? That's bigger than the Tour! What was it?
In reply to mypyrex:
Kevlar lined jeans and jacket in summer, Held textiles in winter but.
In the south of France a couple of years ago it was that hot (38/40) I collapsed with heat stroke and spent the test of the week riding in shorts and a tee shirt. Felt very wrong at first but became normal very quickly
Kevlar lined jeans and jacket in summer, Held textiles in winter but.
In the south of France a couple of years ago it was that hot (38/40) I collapsed with heat stroke and spent the test of the week riding in shorts and a tee shirt. Felt very wrong at first but became normal very quickly
In reply to andy:
I'm as confused about what sort of 'cycle race' you need to have lights for.
> A cycle race with 300 entrants? That's bigger than the Tour! What was it?
I'm as confused about what sort of 'cycle race' you need to have lights for.
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In reply to andy: Not a race, a sportive, sorry - making myself seem more capable than I am. The High Peak Hog.
In reply to mypyrex:
I worry about kids on scooters/ mopeds - shorts and flipflops do not effective ppe make!
I worry about kids on scooters/ mopeds - shorts and flipflops do not effective ppe make!
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
Ahem,
http://www.entrycentral.com/dunoonfullmooncycle
But on the OP. I'm more of an "All The Gear , All The Time" rider, but I have ridden the bike in shorts and T-shirt.
It's the rider's choice.
Tommy.
> No such thing in the UK
Ahem,
http://www.entrycentral.com/dunoonfullmooncycle
But on the OP. I'm more of an "All The Gear , All The Time" rider, but I have ridden the bike in shorts and T-shirt.
It's the rider's choice.
Tommy.
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
Quite different. One has formalised entry, numbers, defined routes, timing and published results, while the other. Umm.....
> Thats's a sportive - not a race.
Quite different. One has formalised entry, numbers, defined routes, timing and published results, while the other. Umm.....
In reply to mypyrex:
I've read about people's protruding bits of body being worn down close to the bone due to friction from the road after falling off on motor bikes, or skin grafts can be needed.
I've read about people's protruding bits of body being worn down close to the bone due to friction from the road after falling off on motor bikes, or skin grafts can be needed.
In reply to MG:
They are quite different, actually, you don't need a license to ride in a sportive, and the ethos is on taking part for the personal challenge in itself, rather than competing with the other riders, and in races you don't have a choice of an easier and a harder route within the same event, like you can get in sportives.
They are quite different, actually, you don't need a license to ride in a sportive, and the ethos is on taking part for the personal challenge in itself, rather than competing with the other riders, and in races you don't have a choice of an easier and a harder route within the same event, like you can get in sportives.
Post edited at 14:08
In reply to Timmd:
They are both clearly races, just different types. The only reason sportives aren't advertised as such is that racing on roads illegal without all sorts of permissions.
They are both clearly races, just different types. The only reason sportives aren't advertised as such is that racing on roads illegal without all sorts of permissions.
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In reply to Timmd:
Both me and my brother are testament to that. Painful reminder to wear the right protection, and that at times it is still not enough.
Both me and my brother are testament to that. Painful reminder to wear the right protection, and that at times it is still not enough.
In reply to MG:
They are both races, but they are quite different, which is what I wrote.
If you want to try and create an argument...that's up to you.
> They are both clearly races, just different types. The only reason sportives aren't advertised as such is that racing on roads illegal without all sorts of permissions.
They are both races, but they are quite different, which is what I wrote.
If you want to try and create an argument...that's up to you.
Post edited at 14:16
In reply to mypyrex:
As a motorbike rider for many years in my yoof, it was always an experience to go to Greece for two weeks of touring without having to wear a helmet or leathers.
Foolish I know but when you're young and invincible it was great fun.
I used to ride a trail bike on the roads, their tyres aren't the best for grip on tarmac. I fell off 13 times never once bashing my helmet.
I did more damage to myself falling off the back of a Mini at 40 mph!
As a motorbike rider for many years in my yoof, it was always an experience to go to Greece for two weeks of touring without having to wear a helmet or leathers.
Foolish I know but when you're young and invincible it was great fun.
I used to ride a trail bike on the roads, their tyres aren't the best for grip on tarmac. I fell off 13 times never once bashing my helmet.
I did more damage to myself falling off the back of a Mini at 40 mph!
1
In reply to MG:
''They are quite different, actually, you don't need a license to ride in a sportive, and the ethos is on taking part for the personal challenge in itself, rather than competing with the other riders, and in races you don't have a choice of an easier and a harder route within the same event, like you can get in sportives.''
> You didn't but don't worry about it.
''They are quite different, actually, you don't need a license to ride in a sportive, and the ethos is on taking part for the personal challenge in itself, rather than competing with the other riders, and in races you don't have a choice of an easier and a harder route within the same event, like you can get in sportives.''
Post edited at 14:17
In reply to Timmd:
, and in races you don't have a choice .....like you can get in sportives.''
You were clearly drawing a distinction between races and sportives. Maybe you didn't mean to write that, but you did. Still, I am glad we agree sportives are races.
, and in races you don't have a choice .....like you can get in sportives.''
You were clearly drawing a distinction between races and sportives. Maybe you didn't mean to write that, but you did. Still, I am glad we agree sportives are races.
Post edited at 14:20
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In reply to MG:
I don't have the time for this, write into Cycling Plus if you like and they'll explain the difference between sportives and races...
> , and in races you don't have a choice .....like you can get in sportives.''
> You were clearly drawing a distinction between races and sportives. Maybe you didn't mean to write that, but you did. Still, I am glad we agree sportives are races.
I don't have the time for this, write into Cycling Plus if you like and they'll explain the difference between sportives and races...
Post edited at 14:24
In reply to MG:
Anyone who thinks a sportive is anything like a race has clearly never seen a UK road race let alone ridden in one.
Anyone who thinks a sportive is anything like a race has clearly never seen a UK road race let alone ridden in one.
Post edited at 14:24
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
Unless you are saying (a good proportion of) sportive riders are not trying to get from A to B quicker than either themselves or the next guy, it is clearly a race.
Unless you are saying (a good proportion of) sportive riders are not trying to get from A to B quicker than either themselves or the next guy, it is clearly a race.
Post edited at 14:44
In reply to Timmd:
So now you think they aren't races. Do make your mind up.
> Exactly, or even read about the differences in a cycling magazine.
So now you think they aren't races. Do make your mind up.
In reply to MG:
If you really do want to know the different, rather than have an argument on UKC and feel like your winning due to a mis-post by another person, either write into a cycling magazine or have a search on the internet about the differences between the two.
If you really do want to know the different, rather than have an argument on UKC and feel like your winning due to a mis-post by another person, either write into a cycling magazine or have a search on the internet about the differences between the two.
Post edited at 14:49
In reply to Timmd:
I know the difference, thank you. But I also know they are both races, using any sensible definition of the word. As above, sportifs can't be called a race for legal reasons but that doesn't change the reality.
I know the difference, thank you. But I also know they are both races, using any sensible definition of the word. As above, sportifs can't be called a race for legal reasons but that doesn't change the reality.
Post edited at 14:50
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In reply to MG:
You really don't know what you're talking about. A race has a winner, a sportive doesn't. A race starts as a group a sportive doesn't.
Have you ever ridden in either?
You really don't know what you're talking about. A race has a winner, a sportive doesn't. A race starts as a group a sportive doesn't.
Have you ever ridden in either?
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
I know. If you want to insist they aren't races, fine, but I think you are wrong - I bet the quickest person in every sportive knows who they are.
No.
> You really don't know what you're talking about. A race has a winner, a sportive doesn't. A race starts as a group a sportive doesn't.
I know. If you want to insist they aren't races, fine, but I think you are wrong - I bet the quickest person in every sportive knows who they are.
> Have you ever ridden in either?
No.
In reply to MG:
Just because someone knows they were the quickest doesn't mean it was a race. It's only a race if everyone is racing!
Maybe you should enter both, then you could speak with some authority!
You'd be able to finish a short sportive as anyone can enter and ride at thier own speed. If you got a licence and entered the easiest category of proper race you wouldn't keep up for even half a mile and wouldn't be able to finish.
Just because someone knows they were the quickest doesn't mean it was a race. It's only a race if everyone is racing!
Maybe you should enter both, then you could speak with some authority!
You'd be able to finish a short sportive as anyone can enter and ride at thier own speed. If you got a licence and entered the easiest category of proper race you wouldn't keep up for even half a mile and wouldn't be able to finish.
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut: http://letour.yorkshire.com/tour-de-yorkshire/sportive ceremonies on the podium, results posted. Aye, no way could that be described as a race.
In reply to Sir Chasm:
But not everybody races, there's people who compete against themselves/the clock, and they can go along the easier route where there's a choice, too. It has elements which are shared with races, but it is not 'a cycle race' in being structured like a cycle race is.
But not everybody races, there's people who compete against themselves/the clock, and they can go along the easier route where there's a choice, too. It has elements which are shared with races, but it is not 'a cycle race' in being structured like a cycle race is.
Post edited at 16:33
In reply to Timmd: And whilst there are "results" they're in alphabetical order, which I think is different to most races...
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In reply to andy:
If someone stood on the start line of even a Cat 3/4 race and loudly pronounced 'I won a Sportive last week' the whole race would erupt in laughter.
If someone stood on the start line of even a Cat 3/4 race and loudly pronounced 'I won a Sportive last week' the whole race would erupt in laughter.
In reply to andy:
Results in time order http://www.lepetitdepart.co.uk/?page_id=59
> And whilst there are "results" they're in alphabetical order, which I think is different to most races...
Results in time order http://www.lepetitdepart.co.uk/?page_id=59
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
So the London Marathon isn't a race?
> Just because someone knows they were the quickest doesn't mean it was a race. It's only a race if everyone is racing!
So the London Marathon isn't a race?
3
In reply to MG:
The London Marathon is a number of elite and semi-elite races within a mass participation event.
A sportive probably has more in common with an LWDA event or more generally a sponsored walk.
The London Marathon is a number of elite and semi-elite races within a mass participation event.
A sportive probably has more in common with an LWDA event or more generally a sponsored walk.
Post edited at 17:05
In reply to Sir Chasm:
Well spotted - that is classic Skipton CC (Have a word, Bob!!) - it's against British Cycling rules to publish times in time order (and of course the event you linked to as "a race" publishes them in alphabetical order, as does pretty much every event with an organising team that can actually read):
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/NON_COMPETITIVE_EVENT_GUIDELI...
Page 10: Organisers must not:
• Promote any timed section or segment as a competition between riders. They are personal challenges to add to the
overall event.
• Publish a list of riders ranked by finishing times, nor in any way indicate the order in which riders finished.
• Award prizes based on rider times and event placings.
• Publish leader boards linked to rider times which highlight placings within a certain segment of the route (whether obtained from a timing provider or an individual timing app).
• Use a podium as this indicates the event was of a competitive nature.
• Use terminology such as ‘results’, ‘competitive’, ‘winner’, ‘podium’, ‘prize(s)’, ‘placing(s), ‘race’ etc.
Seems pretty clear that it's not a race to me (and perhaps the words 'non-competitive' might help). Taking your definition then pretty much every time I go out running or cycling I'm in "a race" as I use Strava to compare myself against my mates and myself.
And The Skipton event is soooo much not a race - it's a bit of a bimble round the dales where people stop for cake and pies.
Well spotted - that is classic Skipton CC (Have a word, Bob!!) - it's against British Cycling rules to publish times in time order (and of course the event you linked to as "a race" publishes them in alphabetical order, as does pretty much every event with an organising team that can actually read):
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/NON_COMPETITIVE_EVENT_GUIDELI...
Page 10: Organisers must not:
• Promote any timed section or segment as a competition between riders. They are personal challenges to add to the
overall event.
• Publish a list of riders ranked by finishing times, nor in any way indicate the order in which riders finished.
• Award prizes based on rider times and event placings.
• Publish leader boards linked to rider times which highlight placings within a certain segment of the route (whether obtained from a timing provider or an individual timing app).
• Use a podium as this indicates the event was of a competitive nature.
• Use terminology such as ‘results’, ‘competitive’, ‘winner’, ‘podium’, ‘prize(s)’, ‘placing(s), ‘race’ etc.
Seems pretty clear that it's not a race to me (and perhaps the words 'non-competitive' might help). Taking your definition then pretty much every time I go out running or cycling I'm in "a race" as I use Strava to compare myself against my mates and myself.
And The Skipton event is soooo much not a race - it's a bit of a bimble round the dales where people stop for cake and pies.
Post edited at 17:20
In reply to MG:
Of course it is. Regardless of how people run it they are aware that they are in a race.
Anymore misinformed comments?
> So the London Marathon isn't a race?
Of course it is. Regardless of how people run it they are aware that they are in a race.
Anymore misinformed comments?
In reply to andy:
I didn't link it as a race, I linked it to immediately disprove your contention that sportives don't print results by times - pointing out that it is against the rules hardly proves that there isn't an element that treat sportives as races. Just like some people treat the London marathon as a race and some merely as a challenge to get around.
I didn't link it as a race, I linked it to immediately disprove your contention that sportives don't print results by times - pointing out that it is against the rules hardly proves that there isn't an element that treat sportives as races. Just like some people treat the London marathon as a race and some merely as a challenge to get around.
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
I've been on faster club runs than many a 3/4 cat race, but that's not a race either but everyone is racing each other to some degree. MG does have a point, it's more like an unofficial race.
> If someone stood on the start line of even a Cat 3/4 race and loudly pronounced 'I won a Sportive last week' the whole race would erupt in laughter.
I've been on faster club runs than many a 3/4 cat race, but that's not a race either but everyone is racing each other to some degree. MG does have a point, it's more like an unofficial race.
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
Right but above you thought everyone had to be racing for it to be a race. Which is it?
Yeah, scroll down for a list of fastest times for this non-race. No one will be trying to beat 6.47 next year, it not being a race
http://darkwhitecycling.co.uk/sportives/peak-epic/
> Of course it is. Regardless of how people run it they are aware that they are in a race.
Right but above you thought everyone had to be racing for it to be a race. Which is it?
> Anymore misinformed comments?
Yeah, scroll down for a list of fastest times for this non-race. No one will be trying to beat 6.47 next year, it not being a race
http://darkwhitecycling.co.uk/sportives/peak-epic/
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In reply to MG:
Then it's a time trial...
> Yeah, scroll down for a list of fastest times for this non-race. No one will be trying to beat 6.47 next year, it not being a race
Then it's a time trial...
In reply to Sir Chasm: Of course there's an element that compares themselves with others' times but that doesn't make it a race (I do, usually - but there's a total different mindset when you're riding a sportive to riding a race) - I rode up Kidstones yesterday when that same Skipton CC event went over there and afterwards had a look on Strava to see how I compared with a few mates. But as they were about a mile and a half behind me when I rode up it I was hardly "racing" them.
In reply to John Simpson:
Most fast club runs involve everyone working together to keep the pace up, doing thier turn on the front and maybe sprinting for some sign at the end of the run. Most races involve people smashing it off the front and trying to form breakaway groups. If your club runs have people trying to get off the front all the time then that's the first club run I've ever heard of that's like that. If you think a club run or a sportive resembles a race you can't have ridden in many races.
> I've been on faster club runs than many a 3/4 cat race, but that's not a race either but everyone is racing each other to some degree. MG does have a point, it's more like an unofficial race.
Most fast club runs involve everyone working together to keep the pace up, doing thier turn on the front and maybe sprinting for some sign at the end of the run. Most races involve people smashing it off the front and trying to form breakaway groups. If your club runs have people trying to get off the front all the time then that's the first club run I've ever heard of that's like that. If you think a club run or a sportive resembles a race you can't have ridden in many races.
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
Hang on, what's all this got to do with my observation of an inappropriately dressed biker?
Hang on, what's all this got to do with my observation of an inappropriately dressed biker?
2
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
1 cat races are faster for sure, but the chipper races wasnt that quick 23mph on average as I remeber. I haven't raced on the road since div championships in 2001 probably rode 40 races in total.
1 cat races are faster for sure, but the chipper races wasnt that quick 23mph on average as I remeber. I haven't raced on the road since div championships in 2001 probably rode 40 races in total.
In reply to mypyrex:
Please stop hijacking the thread.
> Hang on, what's all this got to do with my observation of an inappropriately dressed biker?
Please stop hijacking the thread.
2
In reply to John Simpson:
23mph would be pretty quick for a club run, wouldn't it? We have some fast lads (Cat 1/2) in our club and the Sunday A-ride will never average over 20mph - chaingang might be up near 22-24mph but that's a fairly flat 30 mile blast.
23mph would be pretty quick for a club run, wouldn't it? We have some fast lads (Cat 1/2) in our club and the Sunday A-ride will never average over 20mph - chaingang might be up near 22-24mph but that's a fairly flat 30 mile blast.
In reply to andy:
Well I guess you could call it a chain gang, I just always used to call it a club run, i don't think I ever managed one without getting dropped, racing after that was easier as there was never really that many strong riders at 3rd cat, there wasn't a 4th cat back then so it was easier to stay with it as there were more riders.
> 23mph would be pretty quick for a club run, wouldn't it? We have some fast lads (Cat 1/2) in our club and the Sunday A-ride will never average over 20mph - chaingang might be up near 22-24mph but that's a fairly flat 30 mile blast.
Well I guess you could call it a chain gang, I just always used to call it a club run, i don't think I ever managed one without getting dropped, racing after that was easier as there was never really that many strong riders at 3rd cat, there wasn't a 4th cat back then so it was easier to stay with it as there were more riders.
In reply to John Simpson: Our club runs are generally ridden together - people get dropped occasionally (but more in a "Captain Oates - go on without me" sort of a way), but 18mph would be nearer the mark for an average 50-70m ride with maybe a bit of regrouping on hills. Chainy is Saturday morning, hard going and generally people gradually drop off as the road goes upwards - a lot quicker, but the worst that can happen is a lonely 10 mile ride home!
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