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Reading the article below it seems absolutely crazy that these 3 guys died due to lack of water during an exercise. Never been in the military, but I'm sure there are people on UKC who have and might have a better idea of what went wrong?
No water at 2 of the 5 check points - why not? Did the recruits just not drink enough or top up when they had the chance, or was there none available at the points they needed it?
Obviously this was a these guys are being selected to operate in the special forces, and I would think that entails a massive amount of self sufficiency and self reliance, both in terms of adequate planning so you don't end up in the shit, and knowing how to extract yourself when you do.
So does some blame lie with the recruits, as they should have planned for the march better? Is this just a case of bad planning on behalf of the SAS, or a culture of pushing recruits to breaking point that contributed to these deaths?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/02/soldier-heat-sickness-sas-ma...
No water at 2 of the 5 check points - why not? Did the recruits just not drink enough or top up when they had the chance, or was there none available at the points they needed it?
Obviously this was a these guys are being selected to operate in the special forces, and I would think that entails a massive amount of self sufficiency and self reliance, both in terms of adequate planning so you don't end up in the shit, and knowing how to extract yourself when you do.
So does some blame lie with the recruits, as they should have planned for the march better? Is this just a case of bad planning on behalf of the SAS, or a culture of pushing recruits to breaking point that contributed to these deaths?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/02/soldier-heat-sickness-sas-ma...
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In reply to Phil79:
The trouble with dehydration is that you keep pushing yourself on a challenge walk and dont bother to stop and drink or top up and then soon get confused and by the time you really work out that you have a problem and what it is it is then often its too late.
The trouble with dehydration is that you keep pushing yourself on a challenge walk and dont bother to stop and drink or top up and then soon get confused and by the time you really work out that you have a problem and what it is it is then often its too late.
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In reply to Phil79:
3 people dying on 1 march does point to some degree of negligence. It's hardly a sustainable rate of attrition, even for the SAS.
3 people dying on 1 march does point to some degree of negligence. It's hardly a sustainable rate of attrition, even for the SAS.
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In reply to Phil79:
I was climbing in the Arans that day (christmas retreat) that day. We knew it would be hot, made sure we took plenty of water, ran out just before the final pitch and were in a bad way before we got to the stream on the walk back. I had a splitting headache, one of my climbing partners was looking wobbly.
I just can't imagine trying to do a long march with a heavy pack in those conditions. I can see how they underestimated it before setting out though.
I was climbing in the Arans that day (christmas retreat) that day. We knew it would be hot, made sure we took plenty of water, ran out just before the final pitch and were in a bad way before we got to the stream on the walk back. I had a splitting headache, one of my climbing partners was looking wobbly.
I just can't imagine trying to do a long march with a heavy pack in those conditions. I can see how they underestimated it before setting out though.
In reply to Phil79:
Suppose it boils down to the fact that the SAS training has to be as brutal as possible.
And as realistic as possible .
Training Staff's argument would be that if the soldiers were marching/running for their lives across hostile desert ,with the enemy hunting them ,they would have to do without water.
However ,training Staff should have observed that it was a seriously hot day ,and realised that sending these boys hell for leather up those hills,encased in the obligatory WW1 Great Coat (assuming),was perhaps going to push guys beyond the point of no return.
Suppose it boils down to the fact that the SAS training has to be as brutal as possible.
And as realistic as possible .
Training Staff's argument would be that if the soldiers were marching/running for their lives across hostile desert ,with the enemy hunting them ,they would have to do without water.
However ,training Staff should have observed that it was a seriously hot day ,and realised that sending these boys hell for leather up those hills,encased in the obligatory WW1 Great Coat (assuming),was perhaps going to push guys beyond the point of no return.
Post edited at 19:15
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In reply to Phil79:
What they say is "it's up to you" training staff wont hinder you or encourage you, they are passive. At check points is a man who will give you the grid of the next check point, nothing else. What you carry above the 50lbs set weight is up to you but you do still have to have the 50lbs at the end. So things like food and water are extras. You do have to be in uniform but you can take off things like jackets etc as long as you have them with you at the end. They are given long lectures on things like looking after themselves, what to eat and drink, dehydration, hypothermia etc.
What their looking for is someone who can not only get there but be in a fit state to do whatever at the end. Without having the Sargent-Major running behind him telling him what to do, no matter what the condition.
What they say is "it's up to you" training staff wont hinder you or encourage you, they are passive. At check points is a man who will give you the grid of the next check point, nothing else. What you carry above the 50lbs set weight is up to you but you do still have to have the 50lbs at the end. So things like food and water are extras. You do have to be in uniform but you can take off things like jackets etc as long as you have them with you at the end. They are given long lectures on things like looking after themselves, what to eat and drink, dehydration, hypothermia etc.
What their looking for is someone who can not only get there but be in a fit state to do whatever at the end. Without having the Sargent-Major running behind him telling him what to do, no matter what the condition.
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In reply to OwenM:
I suppose it's a problem common to people who drive themselves to extremes to achieve a goal. They can't be expected to self limit if it means failure. That's fine in leisure activities I suppose but in a service context that danger has to be recognised by the organisers who are asking the participants to sacrifice everything for the goal and so there would be an overriding duty of care and need to recognise whether the prevailing conditions constitute in themselves a risk beyond those of the basic activity itself.
"Recruits " possibly not the most accurate term in the OP.
I suppose it's a problem common to people who drive themselves to extremes to achieve a goal. They can't be expected to self limit if it means failure. That's fine in leisure activities I suppose but in a service context that danger has to be recognised by the organisers who are asking the participants to sacrifice everything for the goal and so there would be an overriding duty of care and need to recognise whether the prevailing conditions constitute in themselves a risk beyond those of the basic activity itself.
"Recruits " possibly not the most accurate term in the OP.
In reply to OwenM:
Agree that they need to be able to complete competently and without being constantly told what to do. But oversight surely needs to be in place to pull them up/out if they get it wrong. That's where the duty of care bit seems to have gone wrong surely, not in the letting them get on with it in their own way bit.
Agree that they need to be able to complete competently and without being constantly told what to do. But oversight surely needs to be in place to pull them up/out if they get it wrong. That's where the duty of care bit seems to have gone wrong surely, not in the letting them get on with it in their own way bit.
In reply to Ferret:
I'd think that the selectors should have noticed that candidates X Y & Z weren't looking after themselves in terms of hydration and pulled them out at checkpoints as they arrived. ie make dehydration a fail. Candidates for this will be so highly motivated they're not going to drop themselves.
I'd think that the selectors should have noticed that candidates X Y & Z weren't looking after themselves in terms of hydration and pulled them out at checkpoints as they arrived. ie make dehydration a fail. Candidates for this will be so highly motivated they're not going to drop themselves.
In reply to Phil79:
Training for special forces does strange things to recruits. They are so desperate to pass and get in they will do anything. Did you see that programme about the Green Berets last year? One chap broke his leg on a fast march about 200 yards from the finish line but continued to try and crawl to the end. Fortunately his supervising officers stopped him doing any more harm but there was an element of the lemming about him.
With this in mind, I feel the army have a strong duty of care to try and see the bigger picture given that the recruits are so focused on getting to the end at any cost.
Training for special forces does strange things to recruits. They are so desperate to pass and get in they will do anything. Did you see that programme about the Green Berets last year? One chap broke his leg on a fast march about 200 yards from the finish line but continued to try and crawl to the end. Fortunately his supervising officers stopped him doing any more harm but there was an element of the lemming about him.
With this in mind, I feel the army have a strong duty of care to try and see the bigger picture given that the recruits are so focused on getting to the end at any cost.
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In reply to ByEek:
I suspect that those organising and supervising this exercise hadn't themselves encountered such extreme conditions for their own Selection, because the weather conditions on that day were unusually extreme.
Yes, Special Forces are looking for the best, but they also owe a duty of care for the "also rans" and allowing 7 to 10 highly self motivated candidates to push themselves so hard to the point that they became seriously dehydrated and 3 of them died points to poor judgement, not just by the candidates involved but also on the part of the organisers/supervisers.
I suspect that those organising and supervising this exercise hadn't themselves encountered such extreme conditions for their own Selection, because the weather conditions on that day were unusually extreme.
Yes, Special Forces are looking for the best, but they also owe a duty of care for the "also rans" and allowing 7 to 10 highly self motivated candidates to push themselves so hard to the point that they became seriously dehydrated and 3 of them died points to poor judgement, not just by the candidates involved but also on the part of the organisers/supervisers.
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In reply to Trangia:
I'm surprised that no one has commented on the reported response from one of the officers in charge when asked by one of the bereaved parents why the exercise was not postponed - "too much paperwork". An astonishingly stupid and callous remark.
I'm surprised that no one has commented on the reported response from one of the officers in charge when asked by one of the bereaved parents why the exercise was not postponed - "too much paperwork". An astonishingly stupid and callous remark.
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In reply to tony:
Not sure I believe that, and I'm sure the families are going for compensation. And greatcoats andymac, huh?! No greatcoats worn on selection marches, you're getting confused.
Not sure I believe that, and I'm sure the families are going for compensation. And greatcoats andymac, huh?! No greatcoats worn on selection marches, you're getting confused.
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In reply to tony:
I hadn't read that, but if it turns out to be true it's unbelievable, and no doubt at least one head will roll. The SAS is respected for its professionalism, expertise and toughness, but not hopefully not callousness. Publicity like this won't do their public image any good. As has been said they are the SAS, not the SS.
I hadn't read that, but if it turns out to be true it's unbelievable, and no doubt at least one head will roll. The SAS is respected for its professionalism, expertise and toughness, but not hopefully not callousness. Publicity like this won't do their public image any good. As has been said they are the SAS, not the SS.
In reply to JayPee630:
Parents lose their children in an MoD f*ck-up and your thought is they're going for compensation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sas-training-deaths-inquest-...
> Not sure I believe that, and I'm sure the families are going for compensation.
Parents lose their children in an MoD f*ck-up and your thought is they're going for compensation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sas-training-deaths-inquest-...
In reply to tony:
No, but I think that that's almost certainly been in their minds in a small way. I also know that memories and recall are usually very inaccurate, especially in emotional circumstances, so to believe it unquestionably is a bit silly. And at the moment it's just an uncorroborated comment that the media have seized upon as it makes a good headline.
FWIW I think the MoD was at fault and the families deserve compensation, and I don't think going for compensation in cases like this is something to regard as shameful, I know I would be if I thought someone was at fault for the deaths.
No, but I think that that's almost certainly been in their minds in a small way. I also know that memories and recall are usually very inaccurate, especially in emotional circumstances, so to believe it unquestionably is a bit silly. And at the moment it's just an uncorroborated comment that the media have seized upon as it makes a good headline.
FWIW I think the MoD was at fault and the families deserve compensation, and I don't think going for compensation in cases like this is something to regard as shameful, I know I would be if I thought someone was at fault for the deaths.
Post edited at 10:58
In reply to tony:
I'm surprised that no one has commented on the reported response from one of the officers in charge when asked by one of the bereaved parents why the exercise was not postponed - "too much paperwork". An astonishingly stupid and callous remark.
Not sure exactly what the officer was supposed to have said.
However, there is no way the selection process at that stage could be postponed, or even the test conditions changed.
Only thing that could be done, was for individuals to be removed when they showed any signs of a life threatening/changing condition or severe injury, etc.
I imagine the permanent staff involved are pretty clued up on all sorts of medical matters, but at the end of the day, they're probably SAS themselves and therefore know how much it means to finish the march and that makes them quite likely to let people continue when perhaps they shouldn't.
The only real answer is to have Doctors who can over rule the permanent staff at each check point and perhaps have some sort of 'body function' monitoring device sending out live data.
I'm surprised that no one has commented on the reported response from one of the officers in charge when asked by one of the bereaved parents why the exercise was not postponed - "too much paperwork". An astonishingly stupid and callous remark.
Not sure exactly what the officer was supposed to have said.
However, there is no way the selection process at that stage could be postponed, or even the test conditions changed.
Only thing that could be done, was for individuals to be removed when they showed any signs of a life threatening/changing condition or severe injury, etc.
I imagine the permanent staff involved are pretty clued up on all sorts of medical matters, but at the end of the day, they're probably SAS themselves and therefore know how much it means to finish the march and that makes them quite likely to let people continue when perhaps they shouldn't.
The only real answer is to have Doctors who can over rule the permanent staff at each check point and perhaps have some sort of 'body function' monitoring device sending out live data.
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In reply to FactorXXX:
and perhaps have some sort of 'body function' monitoring device sending out live data.
I would have thought that would be a very useful thing to have, both for training and subsequently. Having real time information on soliders' physical state could be really useful data for commanders couldn't it? Some avalanche transceivers already do this so it's not unthinkable.
and perhaps have some sort of 'body function' monitoring device sending out live data.
I would have thought that would be a very useful thing to have, both for training and subsequently. Having real time information on soliders' physical state could be really useful data for commanders couldn't it? Some avalanche transceivers already do this so it's not unthinkable.
In reply to Phil79:
I don't really know but one of my mates collapsed from heatstroke during an exersise ( wasn't even that hot) and none of us had noticed anything off until he fell down like he was drunk. More recently I had a friend nearly kill themselves when we did the Swiss ironman, I had mild heatstroke but they drank too much water and ended up in hospital. Being unable to fail puts you in a funny place with regards your own safety.
A terrible thing whichever way you look at it.
Toby
I don't really know but one of my mates collapsed from heatstroke during an exersise ( wasn't even that hot) and none of us had noticed anything off until he fell down like he was drunk. More recently I had a friend nearly kill themselves when we did the Swiss ironman, I had mild heatstroke but they drank too much water and ended up in hospital. Being unable to fail puts you in a funny place with regards your own safety.
A terrible thing whichever way you look at it.
Toby
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In reply to Trangia:
>I know people spout off about things that they know absolutely nothing about all the time on UKC but that really is the most ridiculous statement I've seen in a long time.
> I suspect that those organising and supervising this exercise hadn't themselves encountered such extreme conditions for their own Selection, because the weather conditions on that day were unusually extreme.
>I know people spout off about things that they know absolutely nothing about all the time on UKC but that really is the most ridiculous statement I've seen in a long time.
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In reply to OwenM:
As you obviously know what you are talking about perhaps you would expand on that for the benefit of us who have never done selection? My comment was a suspicion not a statement.
As you obviously know what you are talking about perhaps you would expand on that for the benefit of us who have never done selection? My comment was a suspicion not a statement.
In reply to Phil79:
I have met some army boys (sorry, I don't know who they actually were, but they all carried rifles and 60l+ bergans) during some sort of training/challenge. I've met them several times and the leaders were constantly asking everyone to drink some water - it felt like they were all kids supervised by dad!
I couldn't keep up with them as they were running both downhill and uphill while I was struggling with a lighter sack and trekking poles instead of a rifle.
I have met some army boys (sorry, I don't know who they actually were, but they all carried rifles and 60l+ bergans) during some sort of training/challenge. I've met them several times and the leaders were constantly asking everyone to drink some water - it felt like they were all kids supervised by dad!
I couldn't keep up with them as they were running both downhill and uphill while I was struggling with a lighter sack and trekking poles instead of a rifle.
In reply to Phil79:
This inquest should never have taken so long - this is a clear case of the army stupidly and callously not looking after it's men.
I'd also like to know what really happened at Deepcut but the real facts would probably embarrass the army.
All those that join the army should realise that the army doesn't care about you and cares far more about it's reputation.
This inquest should never have taken so long - this is a clear case of the army stupidly and callously not looking after it's men.
I'd also like to know what really happened at Deepcut but the real facts would probably embarrass the army.
All those that join the army should realise that the army doesn't care about you and cares far more about it's reputation.
Post edited at 01:14
In reply to I like climbing:
What a great post, one of UKC's most classic.
The timeline isn't bad at all. Last week I gave evidence in a legal issue involving a fatal RTA from over 21 months ago. The SAS enquiry was faster than that.
As for the Army having no concern for its people, what exactly do you base that great sweeping generalisation on?
As for the SAS training deaths being an Army issue you are wrong; UKSF are not part of the Army. That may seem trivia to you, but it shows your lack of knowledge here of what you are talking about.
But this is UKC - feel free to spout away at will!
What a great post, one of UKC's most classic.
The timeline isn't bad at all. Last week I gave evidence in a legal issue involving a fatal RTA from over 21 months ago. The SAS enquiry was faster than that.
As for the Army having no concern for its people, what exactly do you base that great sweeping generalisation on?
As for the SAS training deaths being an Army issue you are wrong; UKSF are not part of the Army. That may seem trivia to you, but it shows your lack of knowledge here of what you are talking about.
But this is UKC - feel free to spout away at will!
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Erm, how are UKSF not part of the army exactly?
Erm, how are UKSF not part of the army exactly?
Post edited at 13:03
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Part of the MoD actually, but always assumed under the Army wing.
Part of the MoD actually, but always assumed under the Army wing.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
On that basis what about the SBS? They must be part of the Navy?
> Rather simply! Part of HM Forces,not part of the Army.
On that basis what about the SBS? They must be part of the Navy?
In reply to Trangia:
that is correct isn't it? Hierarchy: RN>RM>Poole?
Maybe PM the man on UKC...
that is correct isn't it? Hierarchy: RN>RM>Poole?
Maybe PM the man on UKC...
Post edited at 13:13
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
I would say it's not very clear and your nitpicking undermines your other points.
Doesn't the UKSF (itself under the command of the MoD) have command over the SAS and SBS but they still are a part of the Army and Navy respectively. The SAS is still a corps within the Army i think?
I'm not sure it matters though.
I would say it's not very clear and your nitpicking undermines your other points.
Doesn't the UKSF (itself under the command of the MoD) have command over the SAS and SBS but they still are a part of the Army and Navy respectively. The SAS is still a corps within the Army i think?
I'm not sure it matters though.
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In reply to MG:
This sort of stuff barely exists within hospitals, I.e. small and light and simple piece of equipment, normally has a lot of highly experienced staff looking at it constantly in order to interpret results and the subject is sat/lying in bed, add into this lots of movement, muscle groups working at their limit, prolonged perspiration and signal distance...
D
> and perhaps have some sort of 'body function' monitoring device sending out live data.
> I would have thought that would be a very useful thing to have, both for training and subsequently. Having real time information on soliders' physical state could be really useful data for commanders couldn't it? Some avalanche transceivers already do this so it's not unthinkable.
This sort of stuff barely exists within hospitals, I.e. small and light and simple piece of equipment, normally has a lot of highly experienced staff looking at it constantly in order to interpret results and the subject is sat/lying in bed, add into this lots of movement, muscle groups working at their limit, prolonged perspiration and signal distance...
D
In reply to Dauphin:
But they were carrying tracking devices, with an emergency beacon. It has also been claimed that an alarm on the tracker devices which is designed to be triggered when a soldier is moving very slowly was not activated that day because of the large number taking part.
> This sort of stuff barely exists within hospitals, I.e. small and light and simple piece of equipment, normally has a lot of highly experienced staff looking at it constantly in order to interpret results and the subject is sat/lying in bed, add into this lots of movement, muscle groups working at their limit, prolonged perspiration and signal distance...
But they were carrying tracking devices, with an emergency beacon. It has also been claimed that an alarm on the tracker devices which is designed to be triggered when a soldier is moving very slowly was not activated that day because of the large number taking part.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
It seems to me that the deaths of these men and the deaths at Deepcut don't seem to bother you. I wonder whether sending ill equipped men to their deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan bothers you ?
It seems to me that the deaths of these men and the deaths at Deepcut don't seem to bother you. I wonder whether sending ill equipped men to their deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan bothers you ?
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In reply to galpinos:
SBS, SAS (effectively operationally merged in lost of situations now), SRR, and other SF elements are under the command of Director UKSF group, a strategic asset under the MoD. And on paper the SAS is still a part of the Army as a Regiment, and the SBS is still a part of the Navy.
But yes, it doesn't matter in relation to the issue at hand!
SBS, SAS (effectively operationally merged in lost of situations now), SRR, and other SF elements are under the command of Director UKSF group, a strategic asset under the MoD. And on paper the SAS is still a part of the Army as a Regiment, and the SBS is still a part of the Navy.
But yes, it doesn't matter in relation to the issue at hand!
Post edited at 16:02
In reply to Trangia:
a, The endurance march isn't something you just do once and that's it your in for life, you have to do it annually to check your not slacking off.
b, To get to be training staff you have to have some experience to pass on so they tend to be older sweats, so they've done it many times.
c, Hereford might be their base in the UK but they also have other bases around the world in other climatic conditions so they just might have some idea what running in hot weather is like.
d, Over the years the SAS have built up quite a knowledge base in surviving diffecult environments so much so that the rest of the Army turn to them for advice.
a, The endurance march isn't something you just do once and that's it your in for life, you have to do it annually to check your not slacking off.
b, To get to be training staff you have to have some experience to pass on so they tend to be older sweats, so they've done it many times.
c, Hereford might be their base in the UK but they also have other bases around the world in other climatic conditions so they just might have some idea what running in hot weather is like.
d, Over the years the SAS have built up quite a knowledge base in surviving diffecult environments so much so that the rest of the Army turn to them for advice.
In reply to I like climbing:
Nothing I have said suggests these deaths or Deepcut deaths or Iraq/Afghanistan deaths do not bother me. I just don't go with the sort of ill informed sweeping statements and generalisations that are chucked about here.
Having had friends killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and having formally identified their barely recognisable and disfigured bodies with injuries that we fortunately don't see in the UK, and still 11 years later thinking fondly almost daily of my great friend, whose brain was pushing out through his penetrating skull injury with a significant amount of head missing, I am more than distinctly bothered by these things, to use your word. Of course you are free to doubt that if you wish.
Nothing I have said suggests these deaths or Deepcut deaths or Iraq/Afghanistan deaths do not bother me. I just don't go with the sort of ill informed sweeping statements and generalisations that are chucked about here.
Having had friends killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and having formally identified their barely recognisable and disfigured bodies with injuries that we fortunately don't see in the UK, and still 11 years later thinking fondly almost daily of my great friend, whose brain was pushing out through his penetrating skull injury with a significant amount of head missing, I am more than distinctly bothered by these things, to use your word. Of course you are free to doubt that if you wish.
Post edited at 18:51
In reply to OwenM:
The endurance march isn't something you just do once and that's it your in for life, you have to do it annually to check your not slacking off.
Attempts to join in with the boys and their game of SAS Top Trumps...
I thought the final endurance march over the Beacons was very much a one off for selection and once in, personal fitness was up to the individual to maintain.
The endurance march isn't something you just do once and that's it your in for life, you have to do it annually to check your not slacking off.
Attempts to join in with the boys and their game of SAS Top Trumps...
I thought the final endurance march over the Beacons was very much a one off for selection and once in, personal fitness was up to the individual to maintain.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
I'm sorry to hear about your friends. War is a terrible thing as I also know from first hand experience.
All I want is for the army and for that matter all the services to look after their men and women. That is something I care about as I'm sure we all do but in my opinion there have been quite a lot instances over the years where this hasn't always been the case.
I'm sorry to hear about your friends. War is a terrible thing as I also know from first hand experience.
All I want is for the army and for that matter all the services to look after their men and women. That is something I care about as I'm sure we all do but in my opinion there have been quite a lot instances over the years where this hasn't always been the case.
Post edited at 19:41
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