UKC

Training aerobic capacity at a bouldering wall

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 douwe 02 Jun 2015
What is the best way to train aerobic capacity at a bouldering wall?
I'm planning to do some endurance training at the local bouldering wall. After some internet research I decided to go for 4x4's at about onsight level. After some more internet research I've found out that 4x4's will increase anaerobic capacity which increases the ability to produce lactate which could get you horribly pumped if you don't train aerobic capacity at the same time. I'm looking to increase my overall endurance on routes, so what will be the best way training for that at a bouldering wall? Will just doing 4x4's suffice?
 zimpara 02 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

Only way to climb harder is to climb harder-only way to climb longer is to climb longer. Goes for most things too.
2
OP douwe 02 Jun 2015
In reply to zimpara:

That is way too simplistic.
 Jon Stewart 02 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

You need a very quiet circuit board with easy circuits so you can do a whole load of laps. IME it's pretty hard to get fit at the bouldering wall and you're much better off finding a training partner and doing a load of laps on routes.
OP douwe 02 Jun 2015
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I was afraid that would be the case..
At the moment I have a very irregular schedule climbing wise, so hooking up with a partner for extra sessions is out of the question unfortunately.
Will experiment a bit with doing 4x4's and loads of easy circuits.
 AlanLittle 02 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

I go to a lead wall at quiet times and just traverse around the bases/starts of routes for 3 x 20 minutes. Wouldn't work at walls that have and enforce strict "no soloing on lead walls" policies, and obviously roped teams doing routes have right of way. Also boring: developing and fine tuning the playlist is vital to training progression.
 LJH 02 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

Horses for courses of course but I don't really agree with laps on routes. Climbing very steep routes very slow is a good idea, learning how to rest as you go to avoid pump. On the bouldering wall try staying on for 60 moves or the length of a song if they put music on. This works well for me, although I am lucky to have a nice quite bouldering wall perfect for traversing.
 AJM 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

I do all my training on a bouldering wall or fingerboard. It's not that hard and you get the bonus of the flexibility rather than having to rely on a partner having the same desires as you.

Blocks of time on the wall - 10 on 10 off or something. Or do 60secs on 60 secs off (or 120 secs off), that sort of thing.
OP douwe 03 Jun 2015
In reply to AJM:

Thanks.
It is indeed the flexibility I'm looking for. Also I want to be able to do some training in a short timeframe, sessions with a partner do take at least twice as long typically.
 manwithacam 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

Training on an autobelay has seen some results in 'pump endurance' for me, plus fingerboard routines. On autobelay I aim for 3 ascents of just about onsight limit immediately on top of each other, no downclimbing but absolutely no rest other than loweroff. Then 4 sets of these in an hour. If I get it right, I fail on the final set, hopefully the final ascent. Would be interested to hear how others train for this type of strength/endurance, as like douwe dont have that much time.
 Langer 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

http://alexbarrowsclimbing.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/training-for-sport-climbi...

Good starting point here and worth a read to better understand what you want to achieve.

HTH

Aaron
Removed User 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

In guessing you're at a stage in your climbing career where you know your own body but be careful doing really heavy sessions at a bouldering wall, I gave myself tennis elbow doing this!
 seankenny 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

I was going to post last night but was a bit tired from doing an aerobic capacity session at the bouldering wall I find they're really quite good for this - if it's quiet then just do lots of linked problems and traverse inbetween them. If it's busy then try to do lots of problems back to back. This is surprisingly tiring in that overall way that a good day's cragging gives you.
OP douwe 03 Jun 2015
In reply to manwithacam:

That sounds a lot like route 4x4's (or 4x3's). I would definitely give that a go if I had access to a wall with an autobelay. Unfortunately that's not the case.
OP douwe 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Langer:

Great article and very useful for understanding the mechanics behind training.
I think Alex Barrows said in an interview with trainingbeta that he does most of his training on a bouldering wall, which gave me the idea of seeing if I could make that work out for myself (on another totally different level ofcourse).
 planetmarshall 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

> It is indeed the flexibility I'm looking for. Also I want to be able to do some training in a short timeframe, sessions with a partner do take at least twice as long typically.

Improving your aerobic capacity takes time, unfortunately. There is no substitute for long duration/low intensity exercise. If the duration is too short, your aerobic system won't adapt, and if the intensity is too high, ie, you are getting pumped or failing, then you have crossed the aerobic threshold and you are doing anaerobic training.

As Mark Twight would say, there is no such thing as a free lunch, and if it were possible to get the same results in a shorter time period, we would all be doing it. To use a running analogy, doing sets of 200m sprints alone won't help you to run a marathon ( though it will certainly help your sprint finish ).

That said, "The Self Coached Climber" suggests that 30-45 mins of continuous climbing, be it traverses or laps, is sufficient for improving aerobic capacity, which isn't really all that long.

 Shani 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Removed Usergilesf:

> In guessing you're at a stage in your climbing career where you know your own body but be careful doing really heavy sessions at a bouldering wall, I gave myself tennis elbow doing this!

It is important to engage in prehabilitation whenever approaching a structured training program. Climbers in particular should look at handstands, (wrist) pressups, forearm pronation and supination work, reverse wrist curls, and various Cable Standing Shoulder External/Internal Rotation (and variations thereof).

Failure to do prehabilitation work may well result in mandatory rehabilitation work at a later date!
 Ramblin dave 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:
I'm a fairly crap climber, but my understanding of the science is that 4x4s increase your ability to store lactic acid, ie increases the amount of strenuous stuff you can do without a rest. They don't have any (major) effect on your ability to produce it.

Aerobic capacity training basically increases the threshold of what constitutes "strenuous stuff", ie the level of effort you can basically work at indefinitely without getting a pump on.

A lot of people seem to put more importance on the former, but that's based on looking at a few books and training blogs rather than my own path to 9a or anything.
Post edited at 17:08
 AJM 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

As far as I'm aware, Alex does do almost all his indoor training on the boulder wall.
 Bulls Crack 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Increasingly hard to find bouldering walls with proper circuits...or even the capacity to make them up
 AJM 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Ramblin dave:

AnCap is peak lactate production as I understand it. AeroCap basically works on aerobic threshold.

If you mean boulder 4x4s, they would be some sort of "power" (either aero or an depending how exactly you do them) which is sort of about how long you can use lactate for - I'm hazy in terms of mechanics without checking but basically how long can operate over your aerobic threshold using that lactate.

Alexs document has an analogy about pipes and tanks which is quite helpful.
OP douwe 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Ramblin dave:

My understanding only comes from what I've read on blogs and some articles which is there are different kinds of endurance which don't always work together very well.
I've done some endurance training in the past on routes that consisted mostly of staying on the wall for about an hour which seemed to work quite well. Now I would like to find a format that I can use on a bouldering wall. From what I gather from the above replies working both 4x4's and high volume low intensity circuits should produce some progress.
 AJM 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

If you mean boulder 4x4s, then they should probably feature at a different point in the cycle to your base endurance training.
OP douwe 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Bulls Crack:

It's a pity indeed. My local wall just installed a trainingwall where you can make up your own problems, which inspired my desire to try and do some form of endurance training. I do also enjoy making up my own problems and not just climbing what is already set.
OP douwe 03 Jun 2015
In reply to AJM:

I vaguely understood from what I've read that it would be a good idea to keep on training base endurance while training 4x4's (anaerobic capacity). I'm not sure if different types of training can work against each other?
I'm really not familiar with periodization and training cycles to be honest.
 planetmarshall 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:
> I vaguely understood from what I've read that it would be a good idea to keep on training base endurance while training 4x4's (anaerobic capacity).

> I'm not sure if different types of training can work against each other?

Yes and no. Aerobic endurance and power exist at opposite ends of the training scale, and it's not physiologically possible to obtain extremes of both ( Usain Bolt will never run a marathon at his 100m speed, or in climbing terms, no one will ever climb 9a at 8000m ). There is some evidence that excessive amounts of high intensity training can have a counter-productive effect on aerobic endurance.

That's only at the extremes, though. The idea of periodization (simplifying somewhat) is for different physical systems to support each other. A period emphasizing aerobic endurance supports a period of max strength training, which in turn supports a period of anaerobic endurance etc. However, you don't abandon aerobic training during the strength period - particularly since the aerobic system takes the longest to adapt.

A lot of this is basic exercise physiology, I'm mostly regurgitating it from Steve House's "Training for the New Alpinism", but I'm sure it's covered well in other texts and online.
Post edited at 20:09
 AJM 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

Alex's doc has adaption times and periodisation in it, but basically you start at the edges (aerocap, AnCap, strength) in your base phase, and work in towards the middle (aeropow mainly) as you approach peak.
 Bulls Crack 03 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

I'm struggling (on paper) to see the difference in physiological effect between 12-15 move long boulder problems separated by short rests for anaerobic capacity and 4 boulder problems quickly one after the other, followed by a short rest, for aerobic power
 AJM 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Bulls Crack:

Rest times are very different. 4x4 is about 1:1 from what I remember of the usual setup, AnCap is somewhere between 1:2 and 1:4.

Also, a "4" is likely to be about twice as many moves - give or take 6 moves per problem so 24, versus 12-15.

You'll feel the difference.....
 abarro81 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Bulls Crack:

'Short' is not a very descriptive word. The former should make you very powered out, the latter should make you very pumped. The intensity of the climbing is FAR higher in the first exercise, and the period in the wall is notably shorter, and the rest probably longer, thus you're predominantly taxing the anaerobic system. If you try to do an aero pow drill at the same intensity it will crash and burn. You can train an pow doing 4x4 but the rests between each block of 4 problems should be much longer to allow for higher intensity.

I'd say 95% of my training inside doesn't involve roped climbing, though roped aerocap is good if you have the time and the partner for it
 zimpara 04 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:

Keep it simple. You would be amazed what you can achieve simply by doing something consistantly. Most people do nothing in particular and expect changes.
Big changes require exactly that-big changes!
 RockSteady 04 Jun 2015
In reply to douwe:
You can do aerocap on the bouldering wall by doing blocks of continuous bouldering at an easy level. It's fine to drop off and pull back on as soon as you can. Running between problems helps.

3 sets of 20 minutes continuous bouldering is actually a knackering workout until you get used to it - problems that were trivial when fresh start to feel tiring.

4x4s are absolutely not going to improve your aerobic capacity - they're more like an aerobic power endurance workout - at the opposite end of the endurance spectrum.
Post edited at 09:20
 Bulls Crack 04 Jun 2015
In reply to abarro81:

I'll take your word for it. Meanwhile I'm not confident I can reliably differentiate between being pumped and powered out!
 Siderunner 05 Jun 2015
Dave Mac alludes somewhere to a crossover effect where Boulder 4x4s will also have spillover benefits in aerobic endurance.

6x8s instead of 4x4s might push more towards the aero end...

I must confess I always worry that the size of the holds (ie massive jugs) I need to do extensive ARC makes it very unspecific for the small holds I have to pull on when I go outdoors.
In reply to douwe:
I found that strength trumps endurance so long as you have a basic level of endurance. Power endurance isn't worth training too much as the gains are very short lived; 3-4 days. Train strength then do a burst of power endurance training 2 weeks before a trip/project.

Never neglect rest.
Post edited at 15:30
 mrchewy 05 Jun 2015
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Pumped - arms feel like they're gonna explode.

Powered out - they just feel empty, no ability to hold on any more.

Very different feelings and once you can differentiate between them - you can start to fine tune your training.

I quite often used to do 10x10s to get my aerocap right
Post edited at 17:37
 stp 06 Jun 2015
In reply to s0458892:

> I found that strength trumps endurance so long as you have a basic level of endurance.

That my general thinking too. But I think also depends on ones strengths and weaknesses. I'm definitely more of a natural endurance climber so for me the above is obvious. I do know others for whom power comes much more easily and really struggle with endurance, though from my experience such climbers are usually a minority. So I think the above holds good for most climbers.

In a recent interview Adam Ondra was asked about balancing strength training and endurance training and he said when he's strong his endurance tended to be good as well.


In terms of how to train endurance at bouldering wall it all depends on the wall. At my local wall some people do long circuits staying on for 10 minutes or more. Another friend of mine following a program set by a trainer was doing a period of several weeks of about 80 easy problems climbed up and down with no rest in between problems in a session. But not all walls are suitable for such training so it really depends on what facilities are available to you.
 Roger Vickers 17 Jun 2015
In reply to Bulls Crack:

You are close enough to do Boulder uk for proper circuits. Ian sets them upstairs on a regular basis.

Come on down and do it man!!!!!!!!!!

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...