UKC

Having started trad climbing in the nineties, I was taught to clip a quickdraw into a piece of protection, pointing the krab in the direction of lateral travel, then invert that same krab and clip a long sling of the required length into it, leaving the very short sling and other krab of the quickdraw dangling from the clipped snapgate. The rope is then clipped into a screwgate at the other end of the long sling. The screwgate is required over a snapgate to minimise the chance of the rope unclipping itself in a fall, the extra length of the sling and the movement that that provides, contributing to the chance of the rope unclipping in a fall.

I understand that a slingdraw is where a long sling is doubled up until it resembles the length of a standard quickdraw sling and then has 2 snapgates clipped into it, so that it resembles a quickdraw. The idea being that should you need to extend a runner, you merely undouble the sling until it is at the required length, clip the lower snapgate back in and clip the rope to it.

Providing I've got the above correct (...and it makes any sense), I have a couple of questions please:
1) Is the rope unclipping itself from the connecting krab no longer a cause for concern, if not, why not?
2) Is there any limit to the length of long sling that can be used as a slingdraw (60cm (short), 120cm (long), or 240cm (extra long))?

Probably best to state that I'm not particularly interested in having rubber bands involved.

In reply to Mark Collins:


I take it this was only when you needed a particularly long extension, and not every single runner?


60cm is normal for extendable sling draws, personally I still carry longer slings over the shoulder.


Because, although certainly possible, it's pretty rare and usually falling the extra metre or two to the next piece wouldn't be a big deal.

I have read of a couple of unclipping incidents though, and I sometimes do use locking krabs on a piece of gear - extended or not - if it's the only thing between me and serious harm. But I wouldn't worry about it in most normal situations.


Quite right.


The sling is normally tripled, in which case it's perfectly possible to extend it one handed without completely removing either krab, thus reducing the energy required and the faff/drop potential. A skill well worth the couple of minutes practice it requires.

In reply to Mark Collins:

Speaking as a beginner, (that has done a lot more reading about climbing than actually doing it!)

1) No, why is this different from clipping into a normal draw?
2) First 2 yes, but I'd imagine the 240 to be impractical. (Does anyone use 90cm's?)

Your method appear to 'waste' a krab, surely just nick the free karabiner from the draw and use that at the rope end?

In reply to Mark Collins:

I agree with Alan. The benefits of a slingdraw far outweigh the disadvantages and in any case I'm not convinced that the longer the sling the more likely it is to become unclipped although I am willing to be proved wrong The only time I have ever used a screwgate as part of a runner is when I have passed a rope round a huge thread or spike on a pitch where there may not be much else. In the first instance I think lets make it totally bomb proof in the second it may help weight the sling on the spike.

You may want to take a look at the new Edelrid Sliders. I've just bought a normal one and an HMS one for my belay plate. They look very good although I haven't used one in anger yet.

http://www.bananafingers.co.uk/edelrid-pure-slider-p-2615.html

In reply to Dell:



I assume that the thinking is that there is greater potential for 'whipping action' due to the longer sling. It's not something I accept myself though.

In reply to GridNorth:

I have a quickdraw with Edelrid Sliders for critical situations. Don't use it that much, but it's reassuring sometimes.


.. classic example being the rather flat "spike" below the roof on Silly Arete

In reply to AlanLittle:

Worst spike ever!

In reply to spidermonkey09:

Held my mate a few times!

In reply to Mark Collins:

For me, it boils down to the potential for:

The piece lifting out with a short draw.
vs
A biner unclipping itself (or breaking under twist) using a long draw.

The former seems the more likely to me in most instances. I do now carry one long draw with a revolver on the end - which I tend to use for any particularly draggy placements. It works a treat.

Danny

In reply to Mark Collins:
if you need to extend a piece of pro. then using a QD and a sling is an inefficient way of doing it. I use almost exlusively sling draws made from two snapgates and a 60cm sling (one passed through the other and clipped to two strands of the sling).
The potential to unclip itself is less of a worry for thin tape fully extended due to the crab being relatively free to move around and correct itself. Sport draws tend to have the crabs held stiff in place so it's more of an issue on sport routes that don't go straight up or the use of sport draws on trad routes and the orientation of the crab to the rope. Hope this makes as much sense to you as it does in my head.

Extending a wire shouldn't be done if it's not necessary and really should be the very minimum needed as a 30cm extension means a 60cm (2ft) fall and with rope stretch and slippage through belay etc could exceed a metre very easily which could mean the difference between a broken ankle and not!

In reply to Mark Collins:

I've always assumed that the longer the sling, the less likely it is to be unclipped because the karabiner can reorientate so freely. Is this wrong?

Anyway, I try to get the karabiners oriented correctly before I move off if I can. Just like a quickdraw.

In reply to climbwhenready:


No, it's sport draws that have more potential to unclip due to their more rigid design.

In reply to climbwhenready:


How do you know which orientation they should be in, it depends on where you can clip and where the rope goes in relation to the clip.

The back of the clip should be on the rope exit side the first clip (into the gear) should be in the best direction so as not to be opened by an edge. So you might need opposing quick-draws.

In reply to krikoman:


By "move off" I mean "move off from placing gear", not off the ground ... is that the confusion?

In reply to AlanLittle:

I thought I would have one for those situations in sport climbing when you are unsure of which way to orientate the gate but now that I have handled one I can see that using it for that may be a little awkward especially if you cannot stand comfortably. I think it will be transferred to the trad rack or used instead of a screwgate for lowering off bolts. I must say I much prefer them to those Grivel thingies.

Al

In reply to climbwhenready:


On this issue, why is the lower carabiner usually set with narrow end up? It looks like positioning it with the wider end upwards would mean there was no chance of unclipping whichever way the rope was running.

In reply to BarrySW19:

This is true but they are harder to clip and the rubber thingy on QDs prevents this manoeuvre.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

True, but if you are clipping a long sling and are worried about it unclipping in a fall then maybe the best thing is to clip it and then rotate the krab upside-down?

In reply to BarrySW19:

I can't help thinking that if you have the time & energy to hang around worrying about all these fine details, then you're probably not climbing particularly close to your limit, and therefore not very likely to fall off anyway, so why bother?

Perhaps it might be better to whack the gear in, clip it in what appears to be generally the right direction with what appears to be a sensible length extension, and get on with the clmbing? Rather than stand around over-analysing how to make already minute risks even more minute?

Obviously this does not apply if you're building the Must Not Fail protection point before a big hard runout. Then go to town with the over-engineering.

(Not specifically in reply to you Barry, just a thought about the thread in general)

In reply to AlanLittle:

Spot on. I'm sometimes amused by some of the posts on here that get into the physics of working out joules and kilo newtons and forces etc. In reality i.e. always it's normally just a case of looking at the situation and making the best of it with what you've got. It's mostly common sense not engineering. All that stuff is best left for when you are sitting at a desk contemplating what to buy and how to use it IMO.

Al

In reply to AlanLittle:


I guess the nature of these forums is that they are conducted in safety so allow contemplation that is not always possible in a more stressful environment but many of the solutions require very little time to implement 'on route' so if they've been worked out before-hand, I say, why not?
One of the biggest falls I've taken was on relatively easy ground when a hold snapped. If my top runner had failed I might have decked.

In reply to GridNorth:

>All that stuff is best left for when you are sitting at a desk contemplating what to buy and how to use it IMO.

Is that not exactly whats going on here?

In reply to BarrySW19:


I'd have thought so.

In reply to climbwhenready:


Yes it was, I agree with all you said then

In reply to All:

Thanks everyone for your help and reassurance, and some interesting points there that I had not considered.

In reply to 3 Names:


Yes but I was responding in the context of AlanLittle's text

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:



Indeed - all hail the wisdom of AK:
http://andy-kirkpatrick.com/cragmanship/view/black_dog_insurance