UKC

Oh no, not Allan Wells...

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 Andy Say 03 Jun 2015
One of my boyhood heroes. Can this be true? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32883944
In reply to Andy Say:

oh dear.

and this too

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-32877702

all unproven at this point, of course

but you start to wonder, is anyone clean?

Removed User 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Andy Say:

yes, you do start to wonder. I would though be really dismayed if the likes of Steve Redgrave or Jonathan Edwards were ever revealed as drug cheats.
In reply to Removed Userena sharples:

Or Radcliffe, that world record has been untouchable. I always assume they are clean. they are British, well spoken, polite...often well educated...above all this drugs cheating nonsense...it's not cricket.

I really hope I am not a naive, trusting, patriotic idiot
 Chris the Tall 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Andy Say:

Thought the first third of the program was irrelevant, but the rest was Fascinating.

The allegations about Alan wells are just too old AFAIC, but micro dosing and abusing TUEs are very relevant

As to micro dosing - why did he have to do it undercover? Aren't WADA or the academics who are behind it running tests to ensure that it can't be evaded, and if not wouldn't they assist someone who was interested in doing so.

Another thing that jumped out at me, the stuff about testing testosterone cream with the excuse that someone might sabotage an athlete. Can't remember who, but I'm sure that some sprinter did try to use that as an excuse, so it's not unreasonable for them to test whether there was a risk
 planetmarshall 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

> Or Radcliffe, that world record has been untouchable. I always assume they are clean. they are British, well spoken, polite...often well educated...above all this drugs cheating nonsense...it's not cricket.

So far the claims about Wells seem to be just one person's word against another. Until that changes I think he, and indeed all athletes, should receive the benefit of the doubt.

 The New NickB 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

I'd bet the mortgage on Radcliffe being clean, Edwards would surprise me, mainly because it was such a technical event and that was why he was so good. I wouldn't have a clue in rowing.

It's not a patriotism thing, there are a few British athletes I'm suspicious of, including some retired Olympic champions.

Wells wouldn't be a surprise if it turns out to be true, I suspect 95% of the top guys were at the time.

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 birdie num num 03 Jun 2015
In reply to Andy Say:

The Num Nums have been enjoying drugs for years. Most of us were introduced in the womb.
 petestack 03 Jun 2015
In reply to The New NickB:

> Wells wouldn't be a surprise if it turns out to be true, I suspect 95% of the top guys were at the time.

Yep, so afraid I'm not sure I'm really that bothered if he was. And if it really was as 'institutionalised' as some suggest/believe, it's difficult to judge it (apart from the potential aspect of lying about it now) by today's standards.

 Roadrunner5 04 Jun 2015
In reply to petestack:

I think that..

I hope to god Paula was clean. I believe she was, but I did Lance (but that was more blind faith).

I do think she was clean, you wouldn't dope to be that far ahead of the field...

Farah? I'm not sure... Its an open secret about the stuff they use, whether its technically legal we'll see but I do think for sure they use a lot and are right on the line. Paula did use the inhaler but I can't see that being as signicant as the thyroid medications.

TBH the fact that Salazar was constantly testing his runners blood himself suggests ke knew a positive was always possible..
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 Mike Highbury 04 Jun 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> So far the claims about Wells seem to be just one person's word against another. Until that changes I think he, and indeed all athletes, should receive the benefit of the doubt.

Using the word of a witness as evidence; I do agree, the very idea.
 steelbru 04 Jun 2015
In reply to Andy Say:

Only one person's view :-

I used to know a guy who worked out in the same gym that Wells used. He was very suspicious as he remembers him transforming himself over just a few months from an average build 11 or 12 stone guy, to a 14 or 15 stone muscle bound hulk. He apparently used to train pretty intensively before the change, so wasn't that he suddenly upped the gym work.

All very sad..............
 planetmarshall 04 Jun 2015
In reply to steelbru:

> I used to know a guy who worked out in the same gym that Wells used. He was very suspicious as he remembers him transforming himself over just a few months from an average build 11 or 12 stone guy, to a 14 or 15 stone muscle bound hulk. He apparently used to train pretty intensively before the change, so wasn't that he suddenly upped the gym work.

Well, with respect, that's not even first hand information. God forbid we start suspecting people of cheating based on "What my mate down the gym said".
 Roadrunner5 04 Jun 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Well, with respect, that's not even first hand information. God forbid we start suspecting people of cheating based on "What my mate down the gym said".

Why not?

If we didn't go off one persons word and start putting it all together we'd never had known the truth about Saville.

People should openly discuss these if there are doubts and slowly add more evidence and make a decision when there is enough.
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 Chris the Tall 04 Jun 2015
In reply to steelbru:

Not saying he's clean, not saying he's dirty, but does it matter now ? 20 minutes devoted to digging up dirt on someone who raced 35 years ago.

The rest of the program asked far more important questions about cheating in sport now.
 Roadrunner5 04 Jun 2015
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Because runners should know they will never be safe from accusations and being exposed as cheats.
 mav 04 Jun 2015
In reply to Andy Say:

It's not completely irrelevant to say I don't rate or trust the journalist, Daly. 3 years ago he made another programme, about Rangers and their use of EBT's. It was damning, you were left wondering how the club ever though they could get away with it. Then, part way through the programme, it became apparent to me he was manipulating the evidence to make a stronger case. He produced an email and timeline to suggest one player must have received an EBT in lieu of salary. The email was from a Rangers employee asking if the player had received an EBT as part of his new contract (which would be illegal). Daly claimed the response to the email did not include a denial and ipso facto must be true. When it came to court, Rangers won, something which would appear impossible if you watched Daly's programme. But the problem was encapsulated in that email. It turned out it was from a junior employee who was not privy to salary details. The response to his email was essentially 'none of your business'.

Based on what I've seen, Daly seems to have employed similar tactics here - built the case for the prosecution, and paid enough lip service to the defence to keep the lawyers happy. But no smoking guns.

(note, an EBT is a way of making an ex gratia payment to a person for no apparent cause, they draw it as a loan which is subsequently cancelled. They didn't pay tax. Introduced by Gordon Brown, but made illegal since. If there is any paperwork demonstrating that the EBT was linked to employment, performance etc, tax was due)

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