UKC

Hello everyone,
I would like to gauge the reactions to an idea I've had.
Arran is a stunningly beautiful island, and the climbing there even more so. I've been there multiple times now and found that there is just one inconvenience. Whenever a route is finished, you have to walk off over the top. Now some climbs aren't even very long, yet still you have to climb up the arete, up to the crest and down the left or right depending on where you left your shoes. It takes forever, and the climbing is largely restricted by it.

My thought/plan is to set up a abseil point, or several, from the top of the routes. It could be used to belay, but would mainly provide a means of quickly and securely reaching the bottom of the climb without sacrificing gear.

I have all the technology in place and could to it some time in July. I would set up two 15cm long - 6mm strong bolts for each abseil.

As I'm preparing for a shitstorm of rants from traditionalists, I want to reiterate that I'm only talking about abseil points in prominent locations where several routes finish. It may however evolve to be necessary to include abseil points in the middle of the wall as I wouldn't want to make a 80m rope a requirement for longer abseils.

So, let me know what you think. I'll go with the general opinion.

In reply to rons:

Assuming this isn't a troll, I'd say no, definitely leave well alone.

And for future reference, don't even consider bolting (anything which would be acceptable to bolt) using 6mm bolts, that's way too spindly - 10mm for mid-route and 12mm for anchors.

In reply to rons:
Assuming this is not a troll...

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/mountaineering-climbing-ethics.asp

http://www.mcofs.org.uk/assets/climbing%20in%20scotland%20statement%20final...

In reply to Fraser:

Have you taken a closer look at the bolts used in sport routes? 6mm is the standard. I agree that more is always better, but I can't think of a place in scotland where that would even consistently be the case.
The ones I'm using are from bolt-products.com : [6-150-12LEA4] (A google search just for the product ID will also lead there)

In reply to rons:

With it being by the sea I would suggest titanium bolts ( not that expensive !) However I can't see how Arran is much different to a lot of coastal crags , people have delt with it up to now ! I'd say no

In reply to rons:

I strongly recommend you drop the idea: the only things it will achieve are a lot of ill feeling (most of it directed at you) and some chopped bolts.

In reply to rons:


... did you prepare for the shitstorm of rants from most other climbers, scramblers, hikers, environmentalists, and general lovers of the outdoors?

In reply to rons:


Yes, just a few.

In reply to rons:

Here's a one word rant: NO.

I think I've heard enough. Thanks for the concise replies.
As I said, I wanted to test the waters for this idea. It came to me while tip-toing down the Cir Mhor bare foot the third time in a day.
To the people basically assuming I don't like nature or the outdoors etc, I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. I'm ready to spend my time and money to improve it - as I would put it. But since that is not the consent, I'll bin the idea and walk off.

Thanks everyone!

In reply to rons:

Good call, and thanks for asking in advance.

In reply to rons:

On a different note...

Why not just set up an ab point at the top with some gear when you finish your first climb. Use it for getting back down each subsequent time, then on the last climb pull the gear and walk down. Could even take your shoes up far the last one. Or stick a note on the gear saying being used on (todays date) and that its not swag.

In reply to rons:

Another one word rant - No.

In reply to rons:
Why barefoot? Why not clip your approach shoes to your harness or whoever's seconding carry a very small sack with both your pairs of shoes in? It's what I've always done on Scottish mountain crags.

Edit: +1 to the setting up of a temporary abseil that you remove after the last route of the day. Done this loads in the Lakes & N. Wales

In reply to MJAngry:

That would require leaving gear - and I've had multiple situations where I later needed exactly that piece...
I wouldn't be concerned about someone taking it, especially on Arran.

As to shoes, sure I could carry some up. But I really prefer to climb without additional crap hanging to my harness or a backpack. Its all about going light weight and becoming one with the rock, not drag a haulbag...

In reply to rons:

If you put them in they will be chopped almost immediately - please don't do it.

In reply to rons:


Agreed, which is why partners and I have evolved the concept of the "seconds sack". 2 pairs of the skinniest trainers you can approach the crag/walk off in, a spare light top, a teeny bit of food/drink and a 1st aid kit. Weighs very little and doesn't impede the leader.

In reply to rons:


Apologies, I'd thought you meant a 6mm diam. expansion type bolt (ie. with a single straight shaft of that diameter) not the twisted bar staple style you were intending using and you referred me to.

In reply to rons:

As a ranting tradionalist, if you don't like walking try climbing somewhere more convenient.

In reply to rons:

The trouble with this sort of idea is that it doesn't go nearly far enough. It's ridiculous in this day and age that one still has to walk up to the crag. I've not been to Arran for awhile but as far as I recall it takes hours up that horrible glen, with all the heather and hills and the stream and stuff. If we got a decent 4x4 track put in and levelled an area for a car park under the crag, we could get ever so many more routes done in a day. And abseiling's a right pain, surely we could get some sort of EU grant for a travelator?

The BMC really needs to take more of a lead on this sort of issue. It's time we moved into the 21st century.

jcm

In reply to rons:

The lemonade from lemons here would be a note in the UKC logbook for the area stating where the preferred abs would be and what pro is needed, so that punters could bring the correct extra bits of gear if anything fairly specific is needed like a bloody great hex, nut, or very skinny / long hidden thread.

Thanks for asking, so no hate mail from me

In reply to rons:

Add bolts so you can be "one with the rock"??? wtf?

What about a really light running sack like this

http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rucksacks/Day-Running-Sacks/MM10L-The...

In reply to JDal:

I'm really,really struggling with the idea that someone wouldn't be prepared to carry their approach shoes and a few other bits on a multi-pitch route in the hills. Wtf ??

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:




You're missing the bigger picture. Surely it's time for Arran to be moved somewhere more convenient.

In reply to rons:

The inconvenience of having to walk off the top of the climb you're speaking about has to be maintained.

Did your first pint that evening not taste that little bit better because you had to do the long walk off several times?

More effort = Guinness tastiness increase!

In reply to ogreville:

A good point well made!

In reply to rons:

That has to be lamest excuse for placing a bolt I've ever heard.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Abb from 3 tier chimney to top of flake system of West flank route then use slings there to abb to the deck? Why do we need to change from the system we have used for decades?

In reply to rons:

There used to be permanent sling at the bottom of the layback corner SRD but not been recently. If finishing Hammer etc.

In reply to fmck:


Good knowledge. Perhaps the OP's question should have been "does anyone know a straightforward abseil descent using minimal kit (slings and tat)?"

In reply to Darron:


A good pint we'll made!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

What an environmentally irresponsible post! Have you any idea of the amount of fuel a 4x4 uses? Surely a proper tarmac road would be better so that normal, fuel efficient cars could be driven up to the base of the crag.


PS: I'm rather amused that your post has received two dislikes. :oD

In reply to rons:
Maybe place a couple of stainless steel chains to replace the tat that's left at 3 tier and top of the initial chimney on West flank route. The tat doesn't last long at 3 tier due to the amount of traffic but the next abb always looked weathered.

If your based on the East side then normally you just down climb old East (Moderate) Its dead Easy. Try climbing it first if your unsure from above. You access "Bluff" from this easy scramble. Bluff is a good route or climbing the great fault to the very top of the Rosa pinnacle.

Its not the first time a bolt was placed on Arrans mountains. In the distant past a bolt was placed for aid on Caisteal Abhail. It didn't last very long and was chopped and the climb freed.

Best not waste your time and money as there is no need.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I want a heliport on Pabay and a bridge from there to Mingulay.

Or vice versa.

In reply to rons:
Hard to believe this isn't a troll but...

What you see as an inconvenience is in fact an integral part of the character of the crag and the mountain experience it provides. Climbing the route on places like Cir Mhor is only part of the experience. Learn to love the full experience or accept that mountain crags may not be for you.

Still, you've got the answers / advice you needed to help you make the right decision.

In reply to fmck:

Maybe place a couple of stainless steel chains to replace the tat that's left at 3 tier and top of the initial chimney on West flank route. The tat doesn't last long at 3 tier due to the amount of traffic but the next abb always looked weathered.

Like the ones on the Inn Pinn- seems very sensible.

In reply to rons:
YEs. I think this is a great idea.

In reply to alex_arthur:

Fairy Cave Quarry has an abseil point (rigged off a tree rather than bolts) which saves you ages walking round; all the routes are trad other than that. Unlike bolting actual routes, I can't see how this would affect the ethics of the climbing itself. When on a route above bad gear you might be tempted to clip a bolt - that does affect how the route is climbed. You can always choose not to use an abseil point and to continue walking around instead - that is not something done under stress in the same way.

Neil

In reply to DaveHK:
Perhaps you could learn to love bolts in mountain crags? I have climbed in mountain areas all over the world where bolts are an accepted addition to traditional protection, I havn't found that they detracted from experience.

In reply to alex_arthur:

I can summarise what you say as 'make all crags the same'. I however, like a bit of variety in my mountain experience.

In reply to DaveHK:

There is no need

In reply to fmck:

For what?

In reply to rons:

I don't think there's actually much wrong with your idea - solid rational arguments against such things are rather elusive.

But that's not the point. It's just not the way we do things here.

The don't call it "trad" for nothing!

In reply to DaveHK:

Sorry I don't follow your reasoning? Is it because you like the variety of different colours and ages of degrading slings at current abseil points?

In reply to DaveHK:

Bolts. Its what the topic is about on south ridge direct. Isle of Arran.

Its a wind up as anyone who has climbed here would know. Its easier to descend the East or West sides if that's where your climbing. Why go to all effort by going down the longest route the South.

As I said before the routes down are clear to anyone with common sense. Only the eajits go for the long walk.

In reply to rons: It's not a bad idea, but you won't get anywhere with it because of the "horrified" reactions of people. It'd be great to have ab stations on Gimmer and a dozen other places I can think of. It'll mean getting an awful lot more climbing done in the day without the need to waste time on unpleasant descents and carrying lots of crap up the routes. Although I'm probably in a minority of one (at least on a public forum) I hate all that pissing about and time wasting on descents after a long mountain route. A good set of ab stations actually enhances and improves a day out climbing on Scafell or wherever. Flogging down a gully really isn't very nice and no one really likes doing it, but no one will admit to that either. Good idea and well done for posting it.

In reply to Frank the Husky:


There already is one, straight down a 3-star route which is no longer a 3 star route as a result


I do

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Well said. I was somehow sure the reactions would turn out this way...
It was worth a try. Once all the radical-traditionalists stop having a say, we can revisit this.
Until then we'll walk off a 10 minute route for 30 minutes or scurry down dirty chimneys and gullys while telling ourselves we're enjoying it.

In reply to rons:

I thought the traditionalists were conservative, and the pro-bolting brigade were the radicals?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Change will always be seen as radical.


“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”

― Henry Ford

Not to say this is the same, but change is always unwelcome, and what some see as an improvement will always have others say that the change makes it worse. There will never be 100% approval of something.
I appreciate your comment for that insight.
I wrote radical-traditionalists with that in mind. Its not a binary switch that you're either pro bolting or pro dirt-gully scurry. The spectrum is wide in between, and the humerus folks further up have lively illustrated the extreme, which could go as far as tarmacking to the belay.
So in a way we're all traditionalists, just on different heights on the scale. There was a point when it was discussed how wearing special shoes for climbing defeats the sensation of climbing.
If you're a hard core traditionalist you should also start coiling your hemp rope and tie it around your waste - none of that fancy and overprotective stuff. Real climbing involves the probability of falling to your death!

In reply to rons:



is it not indirect queuing? Keeps the traffic down on the routes.

I don't mind a quick scamper round, sometimes you see another route on your way round that is far more appealing than where you were heading or dumped your bags.

In the OP's case for the upper section of the main face, if you are climbing well enough to do multiple routes there, then you can scramble the upper section or combine pitches and you'd top out in 5 mins. 10-15mins round the side and off you go up again. Quicker that setting off on the abseil and finding a clutts at the mid station.

It's a little like those people who insist on abing off Tremadog. especially the corner of grim wall, or just left of yogi, pmp and so forth. By the time they've sort the ropes, thrown them down without warning.. bounced their way down... etc.. 99% of people who know their way off could already be gearing up on their next route at the bottom.

Abbing off, doubles the footwear on many climbs and given the scale of polish, walking round is a small price to pay.

In reply to rons:

WTF would you be going all the way to Cir Mhor for to do 10 minute routes (if, indeed there are any in reality)

In reply to GrahamD:

once you've done the long classics, you look left and right and find superb climbing, which sadly doesn't last very long as the routes are only 20-30 meters long. There are a lot of them, and I would recommend most of them as they're perfect routes on perfect granite.

In reply to GrahamD:

Rosetta stone probably the only one I can think of.

Its not the best wind up post but has an element of truth. I have seen people being stupid enough to walk the long way round. Normally people wanting to visit the summit on their first visit. Everyone I know uses the quick decent routes on either side.

In reply to fmck:

Why can't the op just set up an ab from the top of the route and go back for his gear at the end of the day? Simple, you'd think...

In reply to alex_arthur:


Probably because the rest of the world has proper mountains, and a few bolts in those aren't going to cut them down to size, whereas Britain only has a few overgrown hills and a few bolts here and there would make it all a little laughable...

:P

In reply to jonnie3430:

Or leave a rope sling with a maillon..

In reply to fmck:

...it's still there at the bottom of Lovat's...not that I'd use it due to the usual reasons...

ANdy

In reply to rons:



Wow sounds like a real light bulb moment....belay bolts at at climbing area.....who'da thunk it :p

In reply to rons:


You can revisit it all you like, it ain't going to happen. If you place bolts in Cir Mhor they will be chopped. That isn't a threat (I live too far away so it won't be me) but a simple reality.


Er.... Didn't someone point out a feasible abseil descent that only required tat? What's wrong with that?

In reply to rons:

No! Quite happy to admit that it will be me that goes up there and chops them.

Ethics of cluttering up a wild place aside (and I'm sure the NTS landowners would have much to say on the matter) there are plenty of opportunities for abseils, and already far too much tat up there

In reply to Snoweider:

Ha! Wondered how long it would take. Didn't want to post anything more to this pathetic post in order to make it drop off.
Looking at Cir Mhor this morning in the blue sky it seemed a horrible position someone was threatening to do this. Although I still think its a poor wind up there is a point of "maybe"

Benefit is the only positive posts are from folks who seem to have little knowledge of the area. The last guy lives in the opposite side of the world!

In reply to rons:

Actually 62 replies is not too bad for a wind up post.

Well done.

In reply to Snoweider:

Just interested as to why you deem tat acceptable but a bolted rap station not? To me a couple of bolts are less visually obtrusive.

In reply to alex_arthur:

Cut the tat away and it's gone. Bolts involve permanent alteration of the rock and are difficult to remove in comparison.

In reply to fmck:



Except lots of replies are not to the original post.

In reply to alex_arthur:

There is also an issue with the possible proliferation of such bolted anchors, on Arran and beyond. A good analogy would be the thin end of a metaphorical wedge.

In reply to DaveHK:

A very negligible alteration in the grand scheme of things and likely much less that the erosion caused by multiple walking descents. More difficult to remove that tat yes, but why would you want to remove them?

In reply to Jamie B:

Wishful thinking given the overwhelming anti-bolt stance on this thread!

In reply to Fredt:
Was he proposing inserting radioactive bolts?

In reply to Andrew Mallinson:



Hopefully its not the same one that was a piece of rope. It was there in 1984 the first time I was there. I think it was still the same bit when last there in 2003. It was a very stiff bit of tat then.

There is some very dated pieces of tat and dangerous pegs on Arran not to be trusted. Not sure if the nature of the place being slab like and run off of acidic peaty water might have something to do with it.
Believe me the more recent ones even snap very easily.

In reply to alex_arthur:


I assume you haven't actually been to Arran?

In reply to alex_arthur:


no, there is a desire to maintain the mountains as much as possible. Worn tracks would grow over if left unwalked etc.. once you drill a hole, it's there forever.

Then there is mission creep, perhaps a little hut, a bigger track, driveable, car park, toilets, visitor centre, hotel, MacDs... and on it goes..

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Why would you assume that? I've climbed there at least three weekends that I can recall immediately.

In reply to rons:

It's not 'change' though is it? It's taking one thing and obliterating it for the sake of a different thing. The original thing* that a lot of people liked is spoiled forever.

To use your horses/car analogy it's like saying "we invented cars, now let's 'improve' horse racecourses by making them motor racing circuits". McCririck's not impressed...

*'the original thing' being bolt-free UK mountains. It's all a bit silly to pretend there's a group of 'pro-dirt gully scurrying' perverts fighting to force people to come into their gullies with them... (dubious choice of words As folk have pointed out, there are many ways to get off Cir Mhor that the majority are happy to suck up to preserve the bolt-free tradition.

In reply to fmck:

...sounds like it mate....an 11m piece of blue rope tied with a double fishermans....was still there in 2014

ANdy

In reply to alex_arthur:

Apologies. I assumed that because there's no real risk of any erosion due to the small number of climbers who go there.

In reply to alex_arthur:

I'm not a huge fan of tat either, its just less permanent.

In reply to Snoweider:

That piece of tat the bottom of layback corner must have a record by now!

I clipped a bit of tat on "Bluff" that was well stiff but held a short fall.

In reply to fmck: we cut and replace tat quite often but there's definitely some ancient stuff lurking esp around the top of the slabs.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

One of my favourite local crags has banned climber access because climbers have drilled bolt belays... And drilled them into a historical and geological site of interest. Getting told to pack up and sod off, because I'm associated with the climbers who've vandalised the crag, really didn't improve my climbing experience...