UKC

Interesting project and results.

http://strongswiftdurable.com/all-articles/alpinist-fitness-assessment-test...

In reply to JayPee630:

Is SSD the same as Mountain Athelete?

In reply to JayPee630: I'm interested in their definition of elite as those do not look to me like especially good numbers. VO2 max is not that good a measure, but <70?

In reply to galpinos:

Yeah, same project and location but think they have different names for various sub-projects: Tactical Athlete/Military Athlete/etc.. More on the project here: http://strongswiftdurable.com/mountain-athlete-articles/34375/

In reply to wbo:

Elite is, I presume, in terms of achievements in alpinism. So if these really are top alpinists - and I suspect Rob Shaul probably knows enough to judge that - then what we learn from this is that one can be a top alpinist without having the VO2 Max of a professional cyclist or distance runner. I don't find that particularly surprising.

"Elite" alpinism I guess requires a balance. You need decent finger strength - but not "elite" compared to a top boulderer, decent aerobic performance - but not "elite" compared to a top distance runner ... etc.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Why? Because he drank the GymJones Kool-Aid? The terms 'elite' and 'alpinist' are subjective enough without being bastardised by marketing departments.

"We are on new ground here. As best we know, there has never been a focused physiological and fitness assessment of alpinists."

There are a few subjectivities in that promotional statement, but just off the top of my head, a few days ago here on UKC we had this relatively well-known one referenced: https://air.unimi.it/retrieve/handle/2434/176388/185166/Gussoni%20J%20Appl%...

That Messner and others had 'non superior' VO2Max numbers is old news.

Considering how Ueli Steck trains, you think his team just made it all up on the spot a couple of years ago? The Soviets were doing this stuff decades ago.

The SSD site is heavy on branding, imagery and marketing, which is fine, as it's a business. A business sucking the taxpayer teat of military and 'law enforcement' training, not exactly competing in a market based on results, but hey, good luck to them. Training is a good idea, smart training a better idea.

They probably do some good work, but their marketing is far from the last word on any of this subject matter.

In reply to Damo:
I was responding to wbo, who appears to assume that there ought be a correlation between being an "elite" alpinist and having a very high VO2 number. If these guys genuinely do have impressive/top class achievements in alpinism, then we just learned that that is not the case. (Without knowing who they are I admit we don't know that for sure)

Of course one can be a "top alpinist" by being good at flogging up snow slopes in the Death Zone, or by being good at keeping one's shit together on tottering 5.11 choss in the Canadian Rockies, and I assume these things require rather different physical and mental attributes.

> That Messner and others had 'non superior' VO2Max numbers is old news.

Not to me, and interesting in the light of Messner's claimed 35-ish minutes vertical kilometre. That's not that far outside the world record times set by people like Kilian Jornet, who I assume probably are members of the VO2 elite

In reply to AlanLittle:

Messner says lots of things.

Jornet's VO2Max has been clinically measured and is truly elite.

In reply to Damo:

I'd phrase that differently. A single physical attribute doesn't in itself make somebody "elite" at actually doing something. Jornet's VO2Max is exceptionally high, and he is an elite aerobic endurance athlete. For which a very high VO2Max is one necessary attribute. Along with exceptional mental toughness, super-efficient bio-mechanics, highly practiced uphill skiing technique etc etc.

Whereas - if the results we're discussing, and your Messner observation, are correct - exceptionally high VO2Max doesn't appear to be one of the necessary attributes of a top alpinist.

In reply to AlanLittle:


Oh, no doubt, I'm not arguing with you. The very term 'top alpinist' is quite subjective and lab measurements are only fractionally relevant at best.

Alpinism is still very amateurish compared to other sports, though some people are trying to change that by devising and marketing mountain-focused training programs. It's one of the few ways to make any real money out of climbing, more to the point here.

Jornet and Steck have spent some time together and Steck is on record somewhere (that I can't be bothered finding) implying that if Jornet had Steck's climbing skill he would be phenomenal. Traditionally those with the very highest genetic physiological traits - very high VO2max, vertical jump, leg speed etc - have been sucked into other, more lucrative, sports, never getting near climbing. That might change in the future. Having the combination of genetic traits, physical training, nutrition control, mental drive, technical skill and western leisure society benefits is something we haven't really seen yet. Alex Lowe probably came closest in recent times, and Steck is probably closer still.

There is a burgeoning field of training for training's sake, or just competing in training (CrossFit, Tough Mudder, etc). GymJones was meant to be training for a purpose, but I'm not sure that has eventuated.

There are so many aspects governing success on big alpine objectives, physical fitness - underrated by some, overrated by others - is just one of them. There's a hell of a lot of hyped up training going on nowadays, but I'm yet to see the commensurate explosion in big, hard Himalayan alpine-style first ascents (those being a traditional, if slightly narrow, yardstick of achievement).

In reply to JayPee630:

...of course, their test and other versions of it on their site could easily be based on that presented on p177 of Steve House and Scott Johnson's 'Training for the new Alpinism. Which is less difficult to perform at home, requiring only a pullup bar, a step, a box, a rucksack, boots and some weight.

I'd say they are re-hashing Gym Jones style training but making it less intimidating. Clever and probably a good business idea but nothing ground breaking.

The 'vmax' measure for climbing is good though.