This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
AS Colin has told me that the upper peg affects his route, African (E3 6a), I will remove it.
He has been very gracious.Wish I could say the same for some others.The lower one should be left in.
I have had a lot of insulting,nagging email.A lot of it involves people thinking me incapable of soloing the traverse.Hilarious. The peg was intended to open up the route for a wider climbing public.As I said,many of my routes don't get repeated because they are too serious.I am told that the peg is both too safe and in loose rock.The trad ethic at Millstone involves pegs.Many pegs are still in.Just because the route is E3 is no justification for removing it.Is somebody going to strip the peg on the traverse on London Wall because Honnold soloed the route? Probably not.Why? Because other people might want to clip it.
I have soloed several old aid climbs in the area:Pinstone Street,Twikker and Erb.People really think I can't solo 6a just 3 metres off the floor?Anyway,none of your business.If you are going to remove this first peg,then,logically,you should remove all the pegs on the same crag.Otherwise it might be interpreted as a personal vendetta.I have had various hotheads telling me they know how I think.Now,that IS arrogant.
AS for 'concensus',whose concensus is that? I maintain that to put pegs in quarried grit is no sin,especially one that is still plastered with old pegs that are still clipped multiple times each week. The supposed concensus can easily develop into overt authoritarianism,centralised control,dictatorship;rules enforced physically.I see climbing as both a communal and personal activity.I listen to opinion,but don't be surprised if I follow my own.That is what has made me a good climber,not being obedient to a committee,who on this topic at least,seems to consist of a self appointed bunch of busybodies,far less knowledgeable or capable than me on the history ,practice and ethics of rock climbing. I have had no critical email from people who put up new routes. Nobody has yet justified the existence of bolts while maintaining pegs should come out of quarried grit.Not a word.Mitch
He has been very gracious.Wish I could say the same for some others.The lower one should be left in.
I have had a lot of insulting,nagging email.A lot of it involves people thinking me incapable of soloing the traverse.Hilarious. The peg was intended to open up the route for a wider climbing public.As I said,many of my routes don't get repeated because they are too serious.I am told that the peg is both too safe and in loose rock.The trad ethic at Millstone involves pegs.Many pegs are still in.Just because the route is E3 is no justification for removing it.Is somebody going to strip the peg on the traverse on London Wall because Honnold soloed the route? Probably not.Why? Because other people might want to clip it.
I have soloed several old aid climbs in the area:Pinstone Street,Twikker and Erb.People really think I can't solo 6a just 3 metres off the floor?Anyway,none of your business.If you are going to remove this first peg,then,logically,you should remove all the pegs on the same crag.Otherwise it might be interpreted as a personal vendetta.I have had various hotheads telling me they know how I think.Now,that IS arrogant.
AS for 'concensus',whose concensus is that? I maintain that to put pegs in quarried grit is no sin,especially one that is still plastered with old pegs that are still clipped multiple times each week. The supposed concensus can easily develop into overt authoritarianism,centralised control,dictatorship;rules enforced physically.I see climbing as both a communal and personal activity.I listen to opinion,but don't be surprised if I follow my own.That is what has made me a good climber,not being obedient to a committee,who on this topic at least,seems to consist of a self appointed bunch of busybodies,far less knowledgeable or capable than me on the history ,practice and ethics of rock climbing. I have had no critical email from people who put up new routes. Nobody has yet justified the existence of bolts while maintaining pegs should come out of quarried grit.Not a word.Mitch
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In reply to paul mitchell:
What a load of rubbish.
The crag was created by quarrying, which is no longer accepted there. Many of the free routes were created by destructive 'whack & dangle' aid climbing, which is no longer accepted there.
Pegs (and bolts, and wooden wedges!) placed back in the day remain in places on the grit, some of them are clipped often, many of them are decaying, and by and large they're not going to be replaced when they finally go.
There is a clear consensus (yes, with a few dissenting voices) that placing new fixed gear on most of the gritstone edges is not acceptable, whether they're quarried or not. (And just about *all* of the gritstone edges, Stanage included, have been quarried at some time or other.)
Of course you know all this. If you are determined to place pegs on the grit that's unfortunate, but realistically there isn't much anyone can do to stop you. You should be aware however that someone else will most likely remove them in short order, especially if you advertise their presence by coming on here crowing about your fabulous new route.
I'm sure you would like to put up a popular new route, btw, who wouldn't? I'd like to put up a brilliant new V Diff at Stanage, but it's just my tough shit that the good easy lines have already been done isn't it? If you're capable of doing your new route without the pegs, then great - do that, claim the line, and we'll see if the writers of the next guidebook think it's sufficiently independent to put it in. If you want to make your new route popular with climbers less capable than yourself, why stop at the pegs? Chip some bloody great big footholds while you're at it, it'll be all the more popular if you make it about a Severe.
Remove one of your pegs from Millstone yourself, remove both, doesn't matter - they'll both be gone soon. If you're not quick about it maybe they'll already be gone when you get back there. If jimjimjim gets there first, he's offered to send them back to you which is generous of him, others wouldn't. Whine about it all you like.
What a load of rubbish.
The crag was created by quarrying, which is no longer accepted there. Many of the free routes were created by destructive 'whack & dangle' aid climbing, which is no longer accepted there.
Pegs (and bolts, and wooden wedges!) placed back in the day remain in places on the grit, some of them are clipped often, many of them are decaying, and by and large they're not going to be replaced when they finally go.
There is a clear consensus (yes, with a few dissenting voices) that placing new fixed gear on most of the gritstone edges is not acceptable, whether they're quarried or not. (And just about *all* of the gritstone edges, Stanage included, have been quarried at some time or other.)
Of course you know all this. If you are determined to place pegs on the grit that's unfortunate, but realistically there isn't much anyone can do to stop you. You should be aware however that someone else will most likely remove them in short order, especially if you advertise their presence by coming on here crowing about your fabulous new route.
I'm sure you would like to put up a popular new route, btw, who wouldn't? I'd like to put up a brilliant new V Diff at Stanage, but it's just my tough shit that the good easy lines have already been done isn't it? If you're capable of doing your new route without the pegs, then great - do that, claim the line, and we'll see if the writers of the next guidebook think it's sufficiently independent to put it in. If you want to make your new route popular with climbers less capable than yourself, why stop at the pegs? Chip some bloody great big footholds while you're at it, it'll be all the more popular if you make it about a Severe.
Remove one of your pegs from Millstone yourself, remove both, doesn't matter - they'll both be gone soon. If you're not quick about it maybe they'll already be gone when you get back there. If jimjimjim gets there first, he's offered to send them back to you which is generous of him, others wouldn't. Whine about it all you like.
Post edited at 11:16
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In reply to paul mitchell:
I don't think this thread is going to further your cause Mitch, in fact it will probably do the opposite.
You know full well, that placing a peg these days on grit - irrespective of whether it's quarried - is going to elicit a critical response, and for obvious well founded reasons.
The existence of old pegs from way back, doesn't really support your argument - although it will be interesting to see what happens when some of the more prominent ones, do finally bite the dust?
To be honest, I don't understand why someone with your ability felt the need to do so, as the route is clearly of a grade within your ability to solo?
So I suppose you have to ask yourself the question, did you place them (the 2nd on Colin's route Africa clearly has to be removed, as you've said) to provide a more popular route - for what ever personal reasons - or to deliberately stick two fingers up and cause a controversy?
If it's the former, then it's a miscalculation that has unfortunately taken a large bite out of your arse, but if it's the latter, then aren't you a bit too mature and experienced for that sort of thing really?
And whilst I can understand the negative comments on the other thread, I do think the nature of some of the vitriol and personal insults aimed at you, are both out of order, and made with little knowledge of your credentials - but hey, this is UKC
Maybe though, it might be time to stop digging yourself deeper into the hole Mitch.
G.
I don't think this thread is going to further your cause Mitch, in fact it will probably do the opposite.
You know full well, that placing a peg these days on grit - irrespective of whether it's quarried - is going to elicit a critical response, and for obvious well founded reasons.
The existence of old pegs from way back, doesn't really support your argument - although it will be interesting to see what happens when some of the more prominent ones, do finally bite the dust?
To be honest, I don't understand why someone with your ability felt the need to do so, as the route is clearly of a grade within your ability to solo?
So I suppose you have to ask yourself the question, did you place them (the 2nd on Colin's route Africa clearly has to be removed, as you've said) to provide a more popular route - for what ever personal reasons - or to deliberately stick two fingers up and cause a controversy?
If it's the former, then it's a miscalculation that has unfortunately taken a large bite out of your arse, but if it's the latter, then aren't you a bit too mature and experienced for that sort of thing really?
And whilst I can understand the negative comments on the other thread, I do think the nature of some of the vitriol and personal insults aimed at you, are both out of order, and made with little knowledge of your credentials - but hey, this is UKC
Maybe though, it might be time to stop digging yourself deeper into the hole Mitch.
G.
Post edited at 11:32
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In reply to paul mitchell:
I am never going to climb this route and dont know much about pegging so forgive me if what I am about to say is stupid but if the peg were removed could gear such as a ball nut not be placed in the resulting hole?
I am never going to climb this route and dont know much about pegging so forgive me if what I am about to say is stupid but if the peg were removed could gear such as a ball nut not be placed in the resulting hole?
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In reply to paul mitchell:
Millstone is a trad crag. Regardless of how some of the cracks became climbable through repeated pegging and that fact that old pegs still exist (and are clipped!) the current ethic is no NEW pegs. Approach and ethics change and evolve over time and the current ethic should be abided by. Surely you can see that a new route without pegs is better than one with pegs? I’m sure as old pegs snap and come out, there will be debate as to whether they are replaced. The key word in that sentence is debate. Hopefully people won’t just bag in new ones………
As Groucho said, it’s unclear as to why you’ve pegged this route and your rebuttals to criticism have been unfounded and a little nonsensical. Your argument for pegging the route seems to be to make it more accessible and popular, meaning lots of repeats. I would argue that this is a very poor reason to peg a route and is a somewhat egotistical approach (you want people to climb YOUR route). In my opinion, you’d have been better to climb the route without pegs, as you are obviously capable of doing. The fact that few, if any, people would repeat it is by the by.
I’ll finish by saying it’s only courteous to abide by the current ethic of the crag and deviating from this ethic should only be done after consultation and endorsement (easier said than done I know).
Millstone is a trad crag. Regardless of how some of the cracks became climbable through repeated pegging and that fact that old pegs still exist (and are clipped!) the current ethic is no NEW pegs. Approach and ethics change and evolve over time and the current ethic should be abided by. Surely you can see that a new route without pegs is better than one with pegs? I’m sure as old pegs snap and come out, there will be debate as to whether they are replaced. The key word in that sentence is debate. Hopefully people won’t just bag in new ones………
As Groucho said, it’s unclear as to why you’ve pegged this route and your rebuttals to criticism have been unfounded and a little nonsensical. Your argument for pegging the route seems to be to make it more accessible and popular, meaning lots of repeats. I would argue that this is a very poor reason to peg a route and is a somewhat egotistical approach (you want people to climb YOUR route). In my opinion, you’d have been better to climb the route without pegs, as you are obviously capable of doing. The fact that few, if any, people would repeat it is by the by.
I’ll finish by saying it’s only courteous to abide by the current ethic of the crag and deviating from this ethic should only be done after consultation and endorsement (easier said than done I know).
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In reply to paul mitchell:
Thanks Paul
I appreciate what you have said about the second peg.
As for the first peg, personally, I really don't have a problem with it. At the moment what we have is a rather pleasant bit of new climbing up to the left of the LCH start which can be started in two ways - either directly from below by a hard rock over protected by a side runner or from the left by some tricky crimping protected by a peg. So an option for all shades of ethical opinion.
If the first peg is removed nobody is likely to make those moves from the left which would be a shame as I seem to remember they were quite good.
Either way, maybe somebody will now do African which seems to have been unrepeated since I did it in 2012. If they link it to Erb we get 'African Erb' , a long and continuous E3, which is what I originally intended.
Cheers
Colin
Thanks Paul
I appreciate what you have said about the second peg.
As for the first peg, personally, I really don't have a problem with it. At the moment what we have is a rather pleasant bit of new climbing up to the left of the LCH start which can be started in two ways - either directly from below by a hard rock over protected by a side runner or from the left by some tricky crimping protected by a peg. So an option for all shades of ethical opinion.
If the first peg is removed nobody is likely to make those moves from the left which would be a shame as I seem to remember they were quite good.
Either way, maybe somebody will now do African which seems to have been unrepeated since I did it in 2012. If they link it to Erb we get 'African Erb' , a long and continuous E3, which is what I originally intended.
Cheers
Colin
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In reply to paul mitchell:
Hi Paul,
I think the problem is that this is a NEW peg - a practice that has fallen out of use some time ago. I think generally old pegs are removed and not replaced unless there are particularly extenuating circumstances (the route has not been repeated without a peg for instance).
Regardless of what YOU may think is acceptable on quarried gritstone, your views are not reflective of the consensus. The chap who went dry tooling at Millstone a few years ago probably had similar views about what was and was not acceptable. In the interests of protecting the rock, you SHOULD follow the consensus, regardless of what you may think to the contrary. This is why chipping, bolting in inappropriate places, etc is all poor form.
The route you appear to have done looks to me to be quite eliminate and not all that good. I know and trust Jamie who posted on the other thread and see no reason to doubt his assessment of the peg placement as at a useless height and behind a shit flake. Just leave it out and let the route be as it was intended. I have no idea what your other routes are like I'm afraid but if nobody is repeating them - at such a popular crag as Millstone - then it might simply be that they do not appeal to people or that people do not know they are there because the guidebook has not been updated yet. This is not an excuse to chuck ethics out the window. May I suggest that if you are that desperate to put up new routes then you visit one of the plethora of venues out there where there are still new routes to go at at amenable grades. I'm not going to list these out for you, you may need to put some effort into finding them (see recent article on use of Google Maps etc).
You seem to think that nobody's opinion matters unless they have been developing and new routing so if you would care to check my credentials then you will note that so far this calendar year I've done (or been credited on the FA record) 25 new routes and problems up to Font 7A+ and E5 6b. Not very impressive but it's kept me busy and happy. Some of these climbs are genuinely very good and I've pointed friends at them. Others are not so good and I don't really point people at them with any particular fervour. Just because something is new it does not make it good. Part of the skill of new routing is trying to remove your own FA bias to make an accurate assessment of the quality.
As for your comments that nobody knows as much about climbing as you do, please do kindly drag yourself out of your own arsehole.
Hi Paul,
I think the problem is that this is a NEW peg - a practice that has fallen out of use some time ago. I think generally old pegs are removed and not replaced unless there are particularly extenuating circumstances (the route has not been repeated without a peg for instance).
Regardless of what YOU may think is acceptable on quarried gritstone, your views are not reflective of the consensus. The chap who went dry tooling at Millstone a few years ago probably had similar views about what was and was not acceptable. In the interests of protecting the rock, you SHOULD follow the consensus, regardless of what you may think to the contrary. This is why chipping, bolting in inappropriate places, etc is all poor form.
The route you appear to have done looks to me to be quite eliminate and not all that good. I know and trust Jamie who posted on the other thread and see no reason to doubt his assessment of the peg placement as at a useless height and behind a shit flake. Just leave it out and let the route be as it was intended. I have no idea what your other routes are like I'm afraid but if nobody is repeating them - at such a popular crag as Millstone - then it might simply be that they do not appeal to people or that people do not know they are there because the guidebook has not been updated yet. This is not an excuse to chuck ethics out the window. May I suggest that if you are that desperate to put up new routes then you visit one of the plethora of venues out there where there are still new routes to go at at amenable grades. I'm not going to list these out for you, you may need to put some effort into finding them (see recent article on use of Google Maps etc).
You seem to think that nobody's opinion matters unless they have been developing and new routing so if you would care to check my credentials then you will note that so far this calendar year I've done (or been credited on the FA record) 25 new routes and problems up to Font 7A+ and E5 6b. Not very impressive but it's kept me busy and happy. Some of these climbs are genuinely very good and I've pointed friends at them. Others are not so good and I don't really point people at them with any particular fervour. Just because something is new it does not make it good. Part of the skill of new routing is trying to remove your own FA bias to make an accurate assessment of the quality.
As for your comments that nobody knows as much about climbing as you do, please do kindly drag yourself out of your own arsehole.
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In reply to paul mitchell:
<plug>
Videos and whatnot are here:
vimeo.com/user1540525
Topos and descriptions to be released soon.
</plug>
<plug>
Videos and whatnot are here:
vimeo.com/user1540525
Topos and descriptions to be released soon.
</plug>
In reply to paul mitchell:
It was you that sent me an entirely unsolicited email. I presume that's OK is it?
> I have had a lot of insulting,nagging email.
It was you that sent me an entirely unsolicited email. I presume that's OK is it?
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In reply to Chris Harris:
Same here.
> It was you that sent me an entirely unsolicited email. I presume that's OK is it?
Same here.
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In reply to Doghouse:
Same here. I have not insulted him in anyway
only questioned his choices. He has called me both a fool and a hypocrite. I've politely asked him to stop
Same here. I have not insulted him in anyway
only questioned his choices. He has called me both a fool and a hypocrite. I've politely asked him to stop
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In reply to jimjimjim:
Me too.
I know that opinions are like arseholes- everyone has one but nobody want to see it ifs a bad one. UKC is an open forum though and threads such as the one in question invite opinion, like it or not.
Me too.
I know that opinions are like arseholes- everyone has one but nobody want to see it ifs a bad one. UKC is an open forum though and threads such as the one in question invite opinion, like it or not.
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In reply to paul mitchell:
fixed that for you
> AS Colin has told me that the upper peg affects his route, African (E3 6a), I will remove it.
> He has been very gracious.Wish I could say the same for some others.The lower one should be left in.
> I have had a lot of insulting,nagging email.A lot of it involves people thinking me incapable of soloing the traverse.Hilarious. The peg was intended to open up the route for a wider climbing public.As I said,many of my routes don't get repeated because they are too shite.
fixed that for you
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In reply to paul mitchell:
I'd really like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the more you say, the harder that becomes.
And whilst you clearly have no respect for the principle, will you please at least learn how to spell consensus!
I'd really like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the more you say, the harder that becomes.
And whilst you clearly have no respect for the principle, will you please at least learn how to spell consensus!
Post edited at 19:28
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In reply to wilkie14c:
I don't mind at all. I thought it was worth commenting as the op had moaned about people sending him emails and being rude when he was doing the same....and then calling me a hypocrite. Funny really.
Storm in a tea cup really. It'll all be sorted at the weekend. However, if I think I can't get it out without causing further damage I will leave it in place.
I don't mind at all. I thought it was worth commenting as the op had moaned about people sending him emails and being rude when he was doing the same....and then calling me a hypocrite. Funny really.
Storm in a tea cup really. It'll all be sorted at the weekend. However, if I think I can't get it out without causing further damage I will leave it in place.
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In reply to jimjimjim:
Make sure you take and post up several pictures of the lower, dodgy placement. Please!
Make sure you take and post up several pictures of the lower, dodgy placement. Please!
In reply to jimjimjim:
Respect for having a go Jim anyway. I'm in the peak myself, one night only, will be playing around at robin roods stride then an alpine start to watch the solstice sunrise over nine ladies circle, should be an experience. I may well swing by millstone on the way home Sunday afternoon, virtually going past it.
Respect for having a go Jim anyway. I'm in the peak myself, one night only, will be playing around at robin roods stride then an alpine start to watch the solstice sunrise over nine ladies circle, should be an experience. I may well swing by millstone on the way home Sunday afternoon, virtually going past it.
In reply to Tom Valentine:
Not really.
"far less knowledgeable or capable than me on the history ,practice and ethics of rock climbing. I have had no critical email from people who put up new routes."
The fact is that Paul appears to put up completely toss new routes at popular crags and then whine when nobody repeats them. He is labouring under the misconception that this is because his routes are too bold. I don't seem to remember Edge Lane having any trouble getting repeats. People are maybe only prepared to risk their necks for good routes.
Not really.
"far less knowledgeable or capable than me on the history ,practice and ethics of rock climbing. I have had no critical email from people who put up new routes."
The fact is that Paul appears to put up completely toss new routes at popular crags and then whine when nobody repeats them. He is labouring under the misconception that this is because his routes are too bold. I don't seem to remember Edge Lane having any trouble getting repeats. People are maybe only prepared to risk their necks for good routes.
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In reply to paul mitchell:
There were 2 pegs put in a new route at stoney about a month ago, they're still there and no one has got their nickers in a twist about it. probably because grown ups climb there
There were 2 pegs put in a new route at stoney about a month ago, they're still there and no one has got their nickers in a twist about it. probably because grown ups climb there
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In reply to colin struthers:
And what an excellent idea which (OK, I know I'm notoriously slow on the uptake!) I just hadn't realised until now. Would surely bump up the quality of Erb and make it more balanced.
Mick
> Either way, maybe somebody will now do African which seems to have been unrepeated since I did it in 2012. If they link it to Erb we get 'African Erb' , a long and continuous E3, which is what I originally intended.
And what an excellent idea which (OK, I know I'm notoriously slow on the uptake!) I just hadn't realised until now. Would surely bump up the quality of Erb and make it more balanced.
Mick
In reply to admackie:
Ha...yeah that's right. You can separate the type of person to the actual crag. What a ridiculous comment.
Amazingly I've climbed extensively at both crags as I'm sure have most people who have commented.
Ha...yeah that's right. You can separate the type of person to the actual crag. What a ridiculous comment.
Amazingly I've climbed extensively at both crags as I'm sure have most people who have commented.
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In reply to Will Hunt:
Seems a bit unfair to judge someone's routes based on a sample of 1?
>
> The fact is that Paul appears to put up completely toss new routes at popular crags
> The fact is that Paul appears to put up completely toss new routes at popular crags
Seems a bit unfair to judge someone's routes based on a sample of 1?
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In reply to Will Hunt:
Did he actually say that nobody knows as much about climbing as he does? I can't find that kind of arrogance anywhere in his comments.
Did he actually say that nobody knows as much about climbing as he does? I can't find that kind of arrogance anywhere in his comments.
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In reply to admackie:
Either this is because no one cares about pegs on limestone, or because they were put in by a Famous Climber. Or that he didn't put a post about it on UKC.
> There were 2 pegs put in a new route at stoney about a month ago, they're still there and no one has got their nickers in a twist about it. probably because grown ups climb there
Either this is because no one cares about pegs on limestone, or because they were put in by a Famous Climber. Or that he didn't put a post about it on UKC.
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In reply to jimjimjim:
I'm not amazed by the fact that you've climbed "extensively at both crags", but I am amazed that you assert that most people who've commented on Mitch's actions have done so too. I bet they haven't, but I imagine you've said it to lend yourself some currency.
> Amazingly I've climbed extensively at both crags as I'm sure have most people who have commented.
I'm not amazed by the fact that you've climbed "extensively at both crags", but I am amazed that you assert that most people who've commented on Mitch's actions have done so too. I bet they haven't, but I imagine you've said it to lend yourself some currency.
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In reply to Frank the Husky:
Back in the day when bashing pegs into Millstone for aid was all the rage, banging a peg into a 'natural' grit crag would have been extremely bad form. It was easy enough to understand that different ethics hold sway at different crags in the '50s and '60s, why is it so f*cking difficult now?
Back in the day when bashing pegs into Millstone for aid was all the rage, banging a peg into a 'natural' grit crag would have been extremely bad form. It was easy enough to understand that different ethics hold sway at different crags in the '50s and '60s, why is it so f*cking difficult now?
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In reply to deepsoup:
So why then have the (apparently) new Stoney pegs not been removed? What makes it different to a 'natural' grit crag?
So why then have the (apparently) new Stoney pegs not been removed? What makes it different to a 'natural' grit crag?
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In reply to NottsRich:
Well, dur! You answered your own question. What makes it different is that the new pegs are still there.
Contrary to the rant about the authoritarian centralised dictatorship of a committee of his inferiors that Paul opened this thread with, there are no crag police.
Realistically, if he decides he's going to bang a peg into Millstone (or Stanage for that matter), there's very little anyone can do to stop him. Conversely, if someone decides they're going to remove a peg (or chop a bolt) at Millstone (or Stoney) there's nothing much to stop them either.
So, what do grown-ups do? They could place and chop bolts and pegs repeatedly, wasting time and effort and wrecking climbs as they go. That's been done. Or they could reach a consensus on what the prevailing ethic is crag by crag, maybe generalise a bit rock type by rock type. Of course there are no hard and fast rules, but for the sake of brevity lets call that generally accepted local ethic the "rules".
People have popped up on both threads pretending not to understand that different crags have different "rules" regarding fixed gear, and pretending not to understand that the "rules" can also change over time. But even those folk haven't claimed that it's ok to grid-bolt Stanage (even though it's just a few miles away from Horseshoe), or to aid London Wall with a shit-load of pegs and a hammer (even though that was perfectly fine 50 years ago). So I guess they must just be playing Devil's advocate, or trolling, or being willfully obtuse, or they're just *really* f*cking thick.
Well, dur! You answered your own question. What makes it different is that the new pegs are still there.
Contrary to the rant about the authoritarian centralised dictatorship of a committee of his inferiors that Paul opened this thread with, there are no crag police.
Realistically, if he decides he's going to bang a peg into Millstone (or Stanage for that matter), there's very little anyone can do to stop him. Conversely, if someone decides they're going to remove a peg (or chop a bolt) at Millstone (or Stoney) there's nothing much to stop them either.
So, what do grown-ups do? They could place and chop bolts and pegs repeatedly, wasting time and effort and wrecking climbs as they go. That's been done. Or they could reach a consensus on what the prevailing ethic is crag by crag, maybe generalise a bit rock type by rock type. Of course there are no hard and fast rules, but for the sake of brevity lets call that generally accepted local ethic the "rules".
People have popped up on both threads pretending not to understand that different crags have different "rules" regarding fixed gear, and pretending not to understand that the "rules" can also change over time. But even those folk haven't claimed that it's ok to grid-bolt Stanage (even though it's just a few miles away from Horseshoe), or to aid London Wall with a shit-load of pegs and a hammer (even though that was perfectly fine 50 years ago). So I guess they must just be playing Devil's advocate, or trolling, or being willfully obtuse, or they're just *really* f*cking thick.
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In reply to paul mitchell:
It's a good route - I climbed it in February and used the peg.
I'd grade it at M6.
It's a good route - I climbed it in February and used the peg.
I'd grade it at M6.
Post edited at 12:43
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In reply to Kid Spatula:
Different rock, ok. So humour me, why are pegs accepted on limestone and not on gritstone? Pegs are used to protect routes that are otherwise considered un-protectable or too dangerous, so the reason for their use on both rock types is the same at least. But why are they accepted on limestone and not on the precious grit? Or to re-phrase it, I understand and agree with not using them on grit, but don't understand how they can then be accepted on limestone. Care to explain? I suspect there's no good answer. Prove me wrong?
Different rock, ok. So humour me, why are pegs accepted on limestone and not on gritstone? Pegs are used to protect routes that are otherwise considered un-protectable or too dangerous, so the reason for their use on both rock types is the same at least. But why are they accepted on limestone and not on the precious grit? Or to re-phrase it, I understand and agree with not using them on grit, but don't understand how they can then be accepted on limestone. Care to explain? I suspect there's no good answer. Prove me wrong?
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In reply to paul mitchell:
Well Paul it is clear to me that you are very passionate about the current ethics used at this location, but i have to say i'm not sure what exactly it is that you are trying to achieve.
If you are trying to justify your position i find it unethical.
If on the other hand your intention was to provoke a debate in order to challenge the consensus, then you have succeeded.
Perhaps your intention is only to publicise your routes, or yourself.
Unfortunately i find difficult to ascertain what it is you are trying to achieve. Your immature, and frankly childish arguments are not persuading me to change my ethical stance.
I personally believe that it is good to have open, and honest debate about the ethics in all areas of climbing. Wether you engage in this at wall, the crag, or online via and open forum is your choice, but I would encourage you to have some humility when approaching a contentious issue, i am certain you would find people are far less hostile to you from the outset. You will not win someone over with arrogance, and condescension, it will only undermine your argument.
Well Paul it is clear to me that you are very passionate about the current ethics used at this location, but i have to say i'm not sure what exactly it is that you are trying to achieve.
If you are trying to justify your position i find it unethical.
If on the other hand your intention was to provoke a debate in order to challenge the consensus, then you have succeeded.
Perhaps your intention is only to publicise your routes, or yourself.
Unfortunately i find difficult to ascertain what it is you are trying to achieve. Your immature, and frankly childish arguments are not persuading me to change my ethical stance.
I personally believe that it is good to have open, and honest debate about the ethics in all areas of climbing. Wether you engage in this at wall, the crag, or online via and open forum is your choice, but I would encourage you to have some humility when approaching a contentious issue, i am certain you would find people are far less hostile to you from the outset. You will not win someone over with arrogance, and condescension, it will only undermine your argument.
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In reply to andy.smythe:
^This is why pegs shouldn't be placed anymore - in the '80s pegs were the only option, now they're not.
> I am never going to climb this route and dont know much about pegging so forgive me if what I am about to say is stupid but if the peg were removed could gear such as a ball nut not be placed in the resulting hole?
^This is why pegs shouldn't be placed anymore - in the '80s pegs were the only option, now they're not.
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In reply to NottsRich:
A good question for people who are not locals. I've visited the peak 3 times and only climbed on grit. I thought that limestone was more compact and a bit longer which meant that the use of fixed gear was generally more "accepted". This fixed gear is often in the form of threads. I've never been to stoney but own a guidebook and it looks super!
Can anyone tell me if my assumptions re fixed gear are correct? It might turn this thread back to ethics on climbing somewhat as people seem to get quite irate.
Anyways, off to creag an dubh loch for the weekend...long multi-pitch awaits. Well excited!
A good question for people who are not locals. I've visited the peak 3 times and only climbed on grit. I thought that limestone was more compact and a bit longer which meant that the use of fixed gear was generally more "accepted". This fixed gear is often in the form of threads. I've never been to stoney but own a guidebook and it looks super!
Can anyone tell me if my assumptions re fixed gear are correct? It might turn this thread back to ethics on climbing somewhat as people seem to get quite irate.
Anyways, off to creag an dubh loch for the weekend...long multi-pitch awaits. Well excited!
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In reply to anyone:
Nothing? Really? It's gone really quiet all of a sudden...
> I suspect there's no good answer. Prove me wrong?
Nothing? Really? It's gone really quiet all of a sudden...
In reply to NottsRich:
No 'proof' can be given. It's just a consensus opinion.
https://johnroberts.me/outdoors/2015/06/whose-ethic-is-it-anyway-a-climbers...
No 'proof' can be given. It's just a consensus opinion.
https://johnroberts.me/outdoors/2015/06/whose-ethic-is-it-anyway-a-climbers...
Post edited at 08:43
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In reply to John Roberts (JR):
Thanks, sorry for my poor wording. Can you help explain why the consensus seems to allow pegs at limestone venues?
Thanks, sorry for my poor wording. Can you help explain why the consensus seems to allow pegs at limestone venues?
In reply to NottsRich:
Because of history, context and the initially, the nature of the rock. Different ethics can become accepted over time, and change over time.
It's a counter argument issue really, if you want to change that you have to produce a convincing argument, or development, that changes the view of most people, because it's currently the generally accepted way. It's more about the people, than the rock itself.
In fixed gear terms the obvious more sustainable replacement to pegs is bolts, but it feels too big a leap to many people to replace pegs with bolts on the traditionally pegged limestone lines. That said, I think ethics tend to an absolute position over time, look at the developments at Millstone as an example, and I can imagine all but the very historic limestone trad routes (in the Peak at least), especially the significantly pegged ones, will be bolted in a number of generations, but Stanage will remain very much trad only.
Because of history, context and the initially, the nature of the rock. Different ethics can become accepted over time, and change over time.
It's a counter argument issue really, if you want to change that you have to produce a convincing argument, or development, that changes the view of most people, because it's currently the generally accepted way. It's more about the people, than the rock itself.
In fixed gear terms the obvious more sustainable replacement to pegs is bolts, but it feels too big a leap to many people to replace pegs with bolts on the traditionally pegged limestone lines. That said, I think ethics tend to an absolute position over time, look at the developments at Millstone as an example, and I can imagine all but the very historic limestone trad routes (in the Peak at least), especially the significantly pegged ones, will be bolted in a number of generations, but Stanage will remain very much trad only.
Post edited at 11:15
In reply to paul mitchell:
This debate is surely to go down in UKC history...and I am not sure for the good or the bad.
Since moving back to Bristol from Northern Ireland a few weeks ago I think I have clipped more pegs in the SW than in the last 10 years. And lots of new ones that have replaced the rotten ones!
Yes I understand that Avon is no Stanage but I also understand that Millstone is not Stanage!
The best route that I have climbed this year is a brilliant E3 with a 'peg' on mountain granite in the Mourne mountains. Without the peg it is probably E5 and would see even fewer than the half dozen ascents that it has had in the last 20 years.
When I asked the chap who put the route up, why he put the peg in (I was really after beta to find out how good it was!) he told me it was for those who followed after him!
It is a amazing E3 6a that can be climbed ground up, on sight - with no need for top roping pre-practice boredom. If you mess the top move and didn't have the peg you would be dead or very serious hurt.
I think Paul was trying to create something new and similar for the E3 climber at Millstone and his efforts have been sunk by folk that just don't understand what he was trying to do for them.
Does Millstone need another E5 6a that only get done headpoint or GU once a year?
Paul thank you and hopefully I will get to Millstone to have go before some git has the peg away!
This debate is surely to go down in UKC history...and I am not sure for the good or the bad.
Since moving back to Bristol from Northern Ireland a few weeks ago I think I have clipped more pegs in the SW than in the last 10 years. And lots of new ones that have replaced the rotten ones!
Yes I understand that Avon is no Stanage but I also understand that Millstone is not Stanage!
The best route that I have climbed this year is a brilliant E3 with a 'peg' on mountain granite in the Mourne mountains. Without the peg it is probably E5 and would see even fewer than the half dozen ascents that it has had in the last 20 years.
When I asked the chap who put the route up, why he put the peg in (I was really after beta to find out how good it was!) he told me it was for those who followed after him!
It is a amazing E3 6a that can be climbed ground up, on sight - with no need for top roping pre-practice boredom. If you mess the top move and didn't have the peg you would be dead or very serious hurt.
I think Paul was trying to create something new and similar for the E3 climber at Millstone and his efforts have been sunk by folk that just don't understand what he was trying to do for them.
Does Millstone need another E5 6a that only get done headpoint or GU once a year?
Paul thank you and hopefully I will get to Millstone to have go before some git has the peg away!
Post edited at 23:51
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In reply to kenneM:
I can't believe this topic has sucked me in again....
No one (or at least mostly no one) is suggesting that there be a blanket ban on pegs throughout the British Isles. However local ethics should be observed, see the very good article that John posted above. I have also clipped countless pegs, but I've also come across plenty of ugly rotten stumps, that would be hard/impossible to repair. Personally I'm glad there is a shift away from protecting routes in such a manner, regardless of whether it makes a route more popular or not. You might as well stick a ring bolt in if you go down that line.
I think you may underestimate the amount of people that operate around the E5 level... not everyone uses the ukc logbooks.
There is also some doubt the it is even a new route at all...
> Does Millstone need another E5 6a that only get done headpoint or GU once a year?
I can't believe this topic has sucked me in again....
No one (or at least mostly no one) is suggesting that there be a blanket ban on pegs throughout the British Isles. However local ethics should be observed, see the very good article that John posted above. I have also clipped countless pegs, but I've also come across plenty of ugly rotten stumps, that would be hard/impossible to repair. Personally I'm glad there is a shift away from protecting routes in such a manner, regardless of whether it makes a route more popular or not. You might as well stick a ring bolt in if you go down that line.
I think you may underestimate the amount of people that operate around the E5 level... not everyone uses the ukc logbooks.
There is also some doubt the it is even a new route at all...
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In reply to Smelly Fox:
...or that it'd be any harder without the pegs. That's where kenneM's argument fails. Both Colin and Gary said the route was protectable with good nuts around the second peg, and the first peg is unfeasibly low. Just use a mat and a spotter if you want, it may well not change the grade.
> There is also some doubt the it is even a new route at all...
...or that it'd be any harder without the pegs. That's where kenneM's argument fails. Both Colin and Gary said the route was protectable with good nuts around the second peg, and the first peg is unfeasibly low. Just use a mat and a spotter if you want, it may well not change the grade.
Post edited at 07:03
In reply to John Roberts (JR):
That's my thoughts. I had a look on saturday, the first peg is not needed and the second has nut placements near it. Completely pointless. Also I can't be sure but in placing the first peg a chunk of rock was broken off which I found on the floor.
That's my thoughts. I had a look on saturday, the first peg is not needed and the second has nut placements near it. Completely pointless. Also I can't be sure but in placing the first peg a chunk of rock was broken off which I found on the floor.
In reply to jimjimjim:
I was looking at this route on Sunday to see what all the fuss was about. I thought I had found a wire placement by the first peg, but whilst inspecting it the chuck of rock you refer to came out in my hand, whoops, guess I don't know my own strength!
I was looking at this route on Sunday to see what all the fuss was about. I thought I had found a wire placement by the first peg, but whilst inspecting it the chuck of rock you refer to came out in my hand, whoops, guess I don't know my own strength!
In reply to Stroppy:
Thanks for clearing that up. Someone did say they thought the flakes looked dodgy (or words to that effect).
Thanks for clearing that up. Someone did say they thought the flakes looked dodgy (or words to that effect).
In reply to Stroppy:
Ah...think I left the bit of rock I found on the floor in the place where it came from sorry.
Ah...think I left the bit of rock I found on the floor in the place where it came from sorry.
In reply to Tom Valentine:
'Raises hand' He talks about others being far less knowledgeable or capable than him on the history, practice and ethics of rock climbing, which could be interpreted as such, perhaps by an annoyed person especially.
''The supposed concensus can easily develop into overt authoritarianism,centralised control,dictatorship;rules enforced physically.I see climbing as both a communal and personal activity.I listen to opinion,but don't be surprised if I follow my own.That is what has made me a good climber,not being obedient to a committee,who on this topic at least,seems to consist of a self appointed bunch of busybodies,far less knowledgeable or capable than me on the history ,practice and ethics of rock climbing''
> Did he actually say that nobody knows as much about climbing as he does? I can't find that kind of arrogance anywhere in his comments.
'Raises hand' He talks about others being far less knowledgeable or capable than him on the history, practice and ethics of rock climbing, which could be interpreted as such, perhaps by an annoyed person especially.
''The supposed concensus can easily develop into overt authoritarianism,centralised control,dictatorship;rules enforced physically.I see climbing as both a communal and personal activity.I listen to opinion,but don't be surprised if I follow my own.That is what has made me a good climber,not being obedient to a committee,who on this topic at least,seems to consist of a self appointed bunch of busybodies,far less knowledgeable or capable than me on the history ,practice and ethics of rock climbing''
Post edited at 12:53
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In reply to paul mitchell:
Amazed by this thread and all the fuss over a couple of pegs in a quarry. It makes me think people should get out and do more climbing. Can't imagine such a carry on abroad. Perhaps because there's just so much more rock?
Most impressed you've soloed Twikker though. Fine effort.
Amazed by this thread and all the fuss over a couple of pegs in a quarry. It makes me think people should get out and do more climbing. Can't imagine such a carry on abroad. Perhaps because there's just so much more rock?
Most impressed you've soloed Twikker though. Fine effort.
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