UKC

Hi folks!
So there's bloody huge Scots Pine in my garden that has never been correctly pruned by the houses previous owners or council and now has a kink in it that means it drops sap on the drive way and blocks all light to the front the house. It's about 40ft tall, 1 1/2 ft in diameter and about 25ft from my front door. I've applied to the council to have it felled and replaced witht a mature tree native to the area or at the very least pruned however the application was turned down on grounds that it's a healthy tree and the entire housing estate is covered by a blanket tree preservation order.
I have considered poisoning it by drilling the roots and filling them with round up/copper sulphate but this may cause a rapid death and would look very suspicious now the application has been turned down. Is there any way to kill it naturally? i.e encouraging rot, disease or a method that would kill it over the course of a few years? Or better yet any way of getting the council to reconsider their verdict?

Don't get me wrong I love trees and it will be replaced if felled but this one is a source of stress for the family and has a habit of dropping cones, branches and sap onto cars.
Thanks!!

In reply to Tigger:

Drill a 3mm hole near the base, put a couple of drops of glyfos in with a pipette, cover with clay.

Walk away and deny all knowledge.

No chance of getting TPO overturned.
Might I suggest if it is dropping branches you may need to have it "pruned" yourself?
Can't help you with the stress of the hail of sap and cones on the cars I'm afraid.



Andy

In reply to Tigger:

Erect an awning over the cars?

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Would such a small amount of that stuff really work?
Sadly there is no way of covering the where the cars are parked

In reply to Tigger:

Umbrella and a poison dart.

In reply to ACollins:


Does Ricin work on trees

In reply to Tigger:

Get a pet beaver.

In reply to Tigger:

Don't try and kill the tree, you will end up in court.

Should be some flexibility for a non-native fast growing tree like this within a blanket TPO, get some advice.

I can talk to our tree person, but without knowing the site could only get very general advice.

In reply to Tigger:

Talk to the council about pruning - get them to physically come and have a look at it? My guess is they've not done a site visit?

In reply to Tigger:

High doses of radiation will have limited effect in the short term - you then get zombie trees!

http://www.nuclearflower.com/zone/zone08.html

In reply to Tigger:

I have spent some time recently researching CAs and TPOs, only a few comments from that:

1) Did you appeal the denial of permission? If not, it can't reduce your chances of having work done, and will bring in an external (to the council) inspector. You may wish to involve a specialist solicitor if you're feeling rich or passionate about the tree.

2) Otherwise if you have professional advice that the tree is in a dangerous condition - dead or alive - then you do not require permission to have the tree modified as needed to render it safe. It's still a good idea to inform the council of the works in advance. This may also extend to a qualified surveyor issuing a reports that the tree is causing structural damage to the house - a long shot if its 8 meters away?

3) If anything should happen to the tree to render its condition unsafe, the council may give it a very close inspection given the recent refusal for works under a TPO, and its your name on the paperwork. The fine can go up to £20,000.

4) Good luck.

In reply to Tigger:

I'd give the tree a prune myself - put on your crampons, get your axes - and climb up the tree as if it was an icefall - put in all your ice screws and sling big branches. Take off a token twig at the top. Eventually after enough of this "pruning" - you'll have become an excellent ice climber and won't care about the tree and will want to move somewhere with better ice. Problem solved.

In reply to Tigger:

Only one way to find out...

In reply to Tigger:
Hi Mike

I'd say unless you were very sure that you could kill it over at least three years then I wouldn't go down that route due to the risk of being found out and fined

I'd try and get it pruned under it being unsafe as someone else has mentioned. If you say branches have fallen, is there anyway you can get “evidence” of damage to property or a person?

In reply to Tigger:

It may be evident that the tree had been killed but without 'proof' how would the council be able to fine the OP?

In reply to tinytom:

3+ years is fine for me just need to find the correct method.... I am hoping to get it pruned at the very least and then go from there.

I could stand under the tree in high winds and hop to be hit by a branch

In reply to Tigger:

If you have already applied to the council (as a responsible citizen), you will automatically be under suspicion if it "dies".
Maybe the moral is to either see it through within the law, which may take time and money and still be unsatisfactory, or to kill the tree before saying anything to anybody - then you are less likely to be a suspect of devious methods.
Good luck.

In reply to Tigger:

"Spilling" a bit of diesel fuel from said cars around the base of the tree should do the job.

In reply to Tigger:

Apparently if you hammer some copper nails into it, below the soil line, it should be dead within a few months.
Friend of a friend told me. Alledgedy.

In reply to Tigger:


Yes and finding the cause is like finding a needle in a haystack!

In reply to Sonjita:



I heard this could work, however a few months would be far too quickly, I am trialing this method on a small tree elsewhere though (well not nails but 4" copper steaks), I'll see how well and quickly it works.

In reply to Baron Weasel:

How long would it take to kill the bugger and why cover it with clay, just to stop it being washed out?

In reply to Tigger:


Is the tester tree the same type? Results on one could be quite different to another I suspect so don't take it as set in stone.

You could wait for a branch to hit you, or it could hit you tomorrow if you catch my drift

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Pretty easy with a metal detector...

In reply to Tigger:

My advice would be not to post on the internet that you are planning to do it (or even thinking about it).

Some people who are reading this might not be supportive and you may not be quite as anonymous as you think.

Herbicide damage is very distinctive and would be picked up on by any pathologist that the council called. I'm not familiar with the detection thresholds glyphosate assays, but don't assume that just because you only use a few drops it will be undetectable.

In reply to Tigger:

What's the beetle that produces the lovely blue mottled pattern in the wood when it's planked and do you get them in the uk? If those somehow found their way into it you could at least get a nice table out of your problem tree

Best bet is probably to live with it.
jk

In reply to Tigger:

In reply to Tigger:

Not sure if its just my dog or all dogs. Where he pisses nothing lives!

Every clothes line pole has a perimeter of death.

I think I'll first try to appeal first to see if I can at lease get it pruned and see what kind of a difference it makes. Thanks for all the suggestions... and entertainment.

In reply to MarkJH:


Give it another couple of years of Tory government and the council's vast staff of tree pathologists will most likely be redundant. Unfortunately the garden CSI will most likely be privatised and G4S will be making millions from fines on anyone who's daffodils get a couple of greenfly.

In reply to Tigger:

I was walking past your house the other night when it was windy and a huge branch fell on me, fortunately I wasn't seriously hurt and because I know you I decided not to mention it or take any action, that tree is dangerous...

In reply to Tigger:

I have successfully thinned out / pruned a large yew in my garden that had a TPO (get a proper tree surgeon).
Council visited and agreed in advance.

You could just do that enthusiastically over a couple of years and the problem will reduce if not actually disappear?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


You may just be joking, but there are a fair number of plant pathologists in universities and research institutes who will do this sort of work on a consultancy basis. Whether the council would pay for it is another matter, but in the case where the damage happens shortly after there was a request for removal, then they might consider that they had a reasonable chance of getting their money back. I don't know, but it isn't a risk that I would take.

In reply to Tigger:

Was the tree not there before you bought the house?

In reply to krikoman:


They do grow over time... - and this is the big problem with trees in Conservation Areas or a "blanket TPO" (I didn't know that this was a thing) - planting a tree requires zero permission, and then when it gets too large and requires any modification what-so-ever then there is a mandatory paperwork process that must be engaged in for compliance with the law, at the expense of council tax payers.

Edit: Pine trees in particular can grow at a phenomenal rate and utterly transform the entire character of an area. I'd quite like to see a change in the law(s) such that where they are non-native, pine trees are excluded from the protection associated with conservation areas and "blanket TPOs". These revised laws would strip any and all legal protection from any Cypress Leylandii that is more than 2 meters in height.

Also - as a cautionary tale to those suggesting stealth pruning - whilst this is not analogous to the OP's situation, it does show just how far one council was willing to go over violation of a TPO - they evaluated the perceived increase in value of the person's property as a result of his criminal modification of a tree, and then confiscate that as CASH from him under the proceeds of crime act - http://www.planningresource.co.uk/article/1290505/ensuring-cheats-not-prosp...

In reply to Babika:




Good advice.

My experience of TPO's and councils is that if you send a letter ( registered) and include the words, tree, dangerous and children in the same sentence, you should get the result you desire.

In reply to Tigger:

Get a homicidal serial killer tree to do it for you...
youtube.com/watch?v=-AUE4ZrMItI&

In reply to Tigger:

If a tree under a TPO becomes imminently dangerous you may take steps to remove the danger without notification. I live in a national park where every tree in the village is protected. During high winds a large numbers of branches and even whole trees require immediate felling due to becoming 'unsafe'. Rumours of tow ropes, tractors and pulleys are, of course, completely unfounded but having a snapped bit of wood to demonstrate the urgency saves a lot of retrospective paperwork.

In reply to Tigger:

It'll take a few month's to a year, so it will be subtle enough.

In reply to Doghouse:

...in terms of proof this thread wouldn't be helpful in any manner

In reply to Lusk:


Beavers don't make very good pets. When they get damp they get a bit smelly. Ours had long hair so we had to have it regularly trimmed. It also had a funny turn about once a month and was difficult to approach.

In reply to Tigger:

Some people are convinced, that playing certain types of music to plants is beneficial to them.
So, using reverse logic, could you and your neighbours tolerate around the clock playing of Barry Manilow through speakers in the garden?

In reply to Aztec Bar:


I suspect the mistake you're making, is that you're letting indoors.
I fell for the same error, but when I realised my tables and chairs kept on getting lower, outside it went.

In reply to MarkJH:

Not worried about that, the evidence will have been through a wood chipper, burned and the ashes scattered in the sea a year before they even know the vic is missing. That plan with the 2 drops of glyphosphate is so cunning the council could hire Horatio from CSI Miami, upgrade him from a Hummer to a Unimog and issue three extra pairs of shades to take off dramatically at key moments and you'd still get off.

In reply to Tigger:
? Ring bark it at the bottom, then brown boot polish over it?

In reply to Tigger:

Prune it to around four inches above the ground and tell the council that you have cut it hard back to encourage new growth.

In reply to Tigger:

Next time there is any lightning in the area, make sure it gets 'hit'...

In reply to Tigger:

I hear some foreign lorry drivers will hit things for a few quid.

I've also heard the copper nail thing too, though I heard a few years.

Car fire under the tree?

In reply to Tigger:

Should the tree be unlucky it may find itself the victim of the fungus, Dothistroma septosporum. This fungus causes Dothistroma Needle Blight in Scots pines and is now widespread throughout the country - it literally could happen to any Scots pine. It's a terrible thing for the tree, causing defoliation and eventually death. The fungus is known to be transmitted during damp windy periods so your tree probably wouldn't get unlucky until autumn, but if it did then you would have a statutory duty to report the incidence to DEFRA.

In reply to Tigger:

Ignoring the possible £20k fine... To attempt kill a mature tree close to property/people is dangerous. You do not know when the tree will die, when the storm will come, when it will fall or shed branches or potentially mame or kill someone. Mature trees are hard to kill precisely, most suggestions above are at best ill-informed nonsense and unlikely to work but will weaken the tree and cause more problems. Depending on the ground conditions tree removal close to property can be ill-advised too, as changes in the take up of water around a tree can cause heave or subsidence in buildings.

Given your application has been refused it may be best to submit a planning application for tree works to crown lift or remove selective branches, deadwood and de-cone. The works and application is best done by an Arborist if you are not familiar with tree works, BS3998 or TPOs. Pruning can make a significant difference. If you prune and the situation does not improve for you, it puts you in a better light for subsequent applications to remove. An arborist is likely to charge approx £350-£450/day if climbing the tree and a groundsman required (relatively small tree should take 1/2 day).

It is possible to get a TPO removed (I have done) but you need a compelling, real and concise argument. I believe best to focus on one or two key issues rather than a shopping list of woes. You need to engage with the local tree officer first and it may help to discuss 'process' with local Councillors on the planning committee. If there is a compelling argument a council will generally be reasonable, you can seek appeal if otherwise.

ps - this tree sounds relatively small for a Scots Pine at 40'. Alternative native species may give you other problems - so be careful what you propose as a replacement (much research needed).

In reply to MaxWilliam:

While not mandatory, it is possible to simultaneously harbour a great regard for nature and a sense of humour.........

In reply to Tigger:

>


You may have to hop quite high.

In reply to Tigger:

You love trees, and so you will understand that in the scheme of things you, and your home, are not going to be as long lived as the tree, you will 'soon' (in tree years ) go away and therefore so will the problem for the tree . You are thinking short term.

The tree will live on. Take a photo of you standing beside the house and the tree and hand it into the local library archive.

In reply to Tigger:

Is it actually a pine, all this talk of non native, growing at phenomenal rates.
Pine, or spruce, type of cypress... ?

In reply to Tigger:


Trees are highly susceptible to stress. Show it a running chainsaw every morning, and repeatedly tell it "All the sycamores are talking about you", and it'll soon drop dead.

In reply to Tigger:

Get a tree surgeon in to advise you on pruning. Get them to do you a detailed report with photos and diagrams of the proposed pruning.

Submit it to the council. Make no mention of removing the tree. That's probably why they didn't accept before.

In reply to Tigger:

Just leave it alone and learn to live with it

Enjoy it for what it is, a wonder of nature.

In reply to krikoman:

I don't think there's anything natural about it. Someone has put it there and then failed to keep it under control.

In reply to Tigger:

A sure fire way but not very subtle is to slice a complete ring through the bark around the trunk. From my GCSE Biology this will essentially cut the throat of the tree and nutrients etc will not be able to go up the tree past the ring.

In reply to Tigger:

Use Roundup, may need more than one application

In reply to DancingOnRock:


You're sure of that are you? It couldn't of self seeded?

Either way it's still a part of nature.

In reply to krikoman:


as is chlamydia...........