UKC

No Gear, No Climbing ?

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 barbeg 18 Jun 2015
....I've had a good few sessions recently teaching people the basics of rock climbing - how to tie on, how to select and tie on to anchors, how to belay.....all the improtant basics. What is becoming a common theme is that everyone seems to think you need masses of new shiny kit to go rock climbing, even at single pitch crags. When I show them the simple ways with just a rope, they're amazed !

Don't know why they think this, whether it's shiny catalogues, gear maufactures or whatever, but tons of kit is just not required...I wonder if it's putting people off venturing outside?
Do people just see it as mega cost?
At the end of the day two people can go to many single pitch crags and top rope routes with one rope, a harness and helmet each, one crab and a belay plate.
Interesting the preception that is being created out there.....
ANdy

 tinytom 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

What gear are we talking here? Ive just started climbing with my girlfriend and we have bought

A gri gri
Two crabs
Two sets of shoes
A chalk bag
Some chalk
Two harnesses

That’s the basics, right? We just bought it so we didn’t have to hire it everytime. We havn’t done outdoor climbing yet, but when we do I suspect we’ll need a rope and helmets.

Interested to know what other gear is available.
 planetmarshall 18 Jun 2015
In reply to tinytom:

Well you could have saved yourself some money on the GriGri and put it towards a rope. Not that they aren't useful, just I would generally recommend starting out with a manual device.
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 planetmarshall 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

> Interesting the preception that is being created out there.....

To each their own, but top roping outdoors was just never of any interest to me. I rarely even do it indoors these days.

 Mostin3 18 Jun 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

Just out of interest, why would you advise starting out with a manual advice?
 planetmarshall 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Mostin3:

Mostly because they are cheaper, and more generally useful ( can be used with two ropes, for example ). And if you decide you don't like climbing, you haven't just spanked £50 on a shiny gadget.
 Ramblin dave 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
The thing that does my head in a bit is the perception that sport gear for you and your mate, ie
2 x pairs shoes
1 x rope
2 x harness
2 x belay device
8 x quickdraws
2 x helmet
a couple of slings and screwgates
is affordable, but basic trad gear for the two of you eg
2 x pairs shoes
1 x rope
2 x harness
2 x belay device
8 x quickdraws
2 x helmet
a couple of slings and screwgates
a set of nuts
is so expensive as to be an unattainable dream for all but the ultra-rich.
Post edited at 11:53
3
 Bob 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Mostin3:

advice? I think you meant device ...

Using something like a sticht plate (or derivative) teaches you more about the mechanics of belaying than autobloc devices. Being able to waist belay is useful but unless I had to or was winter climbing then I wouldn't do so out of choice. Once situation that you might use a waist belay is if someone is belaying and you need to quickly step in to belay while they sort something out, like turning their belay device round to the BMC approved orientation for example much less faff than attaching a device to the rope.
 tinytom 18 Jun 2015
In reply to planetmarshall:

True, and I might have been happy with a simpler device, but my girlfriend is about 35 kg lighter than me and much preferred the more controlled (and for her easier) lowering mechanism of the gri gri compared to the different devices on our introduction course, as well as the safety aspect.

I also prefer the safety aspect of them to be honest.

We still belay in exactly the same way you would with a simple device.

Plus we ended up liking climbing so we lucked out really
 girlymonkey 18 Jun 2015
In reply to tinytom:

A 35kg difference should make no difference, a manual device is no harder to use. I am a very small female climber, and am very keen to teach novices to use a traditional friction device properly before an assisted breaking device. As stated above, if you are going to climb with double ropes then you will need to be able to use one properly.
One mis-conception amongst bigger climbers is that the ATC XP (the one with the grippy teeth) will be easier for a small climber belaying a larger climber. I do not find this to be true, as on lowering I have have to lift the rope (wall ropes in particular) out of the teeth to get it to run, and then there is a lot of strain to try and hold the climber. If you turn this device round, or just use one without the teeth, then you can hold the rope right in close to your body on lowering and it is very easy to lower in control. The smaller climber will have to learn to cope with getting lifted off the ground, but they will have to get used to this with an assisted breaking device too.
2
 Mostin3 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Bob:

Sorry, device, I wasn't on the ball. Very valid points there.
 slab_happy 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

> When I show them the simple ways with just a rope, they're amazed !

To clarify, are you referring specifically to top-roping?

I'm not aware of ways I can lead a trad or sport route with just a rope and no gear (except perhaps for the old-school "untie from the rope, thread the rope round something, tie on again" option, which I'm not really prepared to do halfway up a route).

It's obviously true that people can top-rope routes without gear, assuming there are nice boulders or spikes or trees that can be tied off with the rope to create anchors.

But for most people, top-roping routes isn't the be-all and end-all of their outdoor ambitions (unless perhaps they're southern sandstone specialists).

I agree there's often an exaggerated sense that "you have to buy ALL THE SHINY THINGS!!!" and people over-rate how much they need to buy to start out. But it's not incorrect for people to think that, if they want to take it beyond top-roping, they'll need to buy some kit.
 David Coley 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

Back in the day, we didn't get a harness until climbing VS, and no helmet - and that was in the scouts.
 GrahamD 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

I think some people are attracted to climbing because of the gear (technical and clothing). Like cycling, or sailing or surfing a hell of a lot of it is image ("we are not the same as ordinary people").

Obviously you don't actually need any of it to climb !
 Fredt 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

> At the end of the day two people can go to many single pitch crags and top rope routes with one rope, a harness and helmet each, one crab and a belay plate.

I have often taken a beginner to a crag (usually Birchen) with just a rope. Trainers are handy too.

I've done loads of routes there like that, leading (soloing), belay at the top with the rope if possible, otherwise a good stance and waist belay can suffice.
Saves so much time, and not a krab in sight.

 teltrabm 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

a bouldering mat is even cheaper than the stuff you mentioned and you can do proper aspirational climbing at any grade all over the country with it rather than just faffing around top roping a small selection of the routes at birchen

given the state of stanage on a weekend i'm not sure why you'd think anything is putting people off climbing outdoors anyway
 tinytom 18 Jun 2015
In reply to girlymonkey:

> A 35kg difference should make no difference, a manual device is no harder to use. I am a very small female climber, and am very keen to teach novices to use a traditional friction device properly before an assisted breaking device. As stated above, if you are going to climb with double ropes then you will need to be able to use one properly.

> One mis-conception amongst bigger climbers is that the ATC XP (the one with the grippy teeth) will be easier for a small climber belaying a larger climber. I do not find this to be true, as on lowering I have have to lift the rope (wall ropes in particular) out of the teeth to get it to run, and then there is a lot of strain to try and hold the climber. If you turn this device round, or just use one without the teeth, then you can hold the rope right in close to your body on lowering and it is very easy to lower in control. The smaller climber will have to learn to cope with getting lifted off the ground, but they will have to get used to this with an assisted breaking device too.

I don't even know what climbing with double ropes is

In an ideal world then I understand it would be best to use a friction device first. But, we were both more comfortable with the gri gri, and when we told the instructor we intended to get one she didn't protest it. Perhaps we might move on to use a simpler device when we need to use double ropes (assuming it is something we will want to do as it has been mentioned a few times) and hopefully the transition won't be too hard

In reply to tinytom:

> Ive just started climbing
> A chalk bag
> Some chalk

Some would argue that chalk is unnecessary if you're a beginner. Unless you're a very good beginner...

I've never used chalk, but then I'm a complete punter...
 girlymonkey 18 Jun 2015
In reply to tinytom:

Double ropes are often used in outdoor climbing to reduce rope drag. They are not essential, many people climb on single ropes outside, but depending on the venues and routes being climbed, having two ropes can make the process much smoother.

 krikoman 18 Jun 2015
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Some would argue that chalk is unnecessary if you're a beginner. Unless you're a very good beginner...

> I've never used chalk, but then I'm a complete punter...

Good shout, chalk!!!! Pah!!
 tinytom 18 Jun 2015
In reply to captain paranoia:

Oh really? If anything I would have assumed chalk is necessary for beginners (as finger strength is poor, so any extra grip will help) and not so necessary for the more experienced.

My hands get quite sweaty, id find it hard to climb without it now!
 climbwhenready 18 Jun 2015
In reply to tinytom:

That is, of course, fine

The other use of a device that takes 2 ropes is that you can do a retrievable abseil, which is something you have to be able to do if you graduate past gritstone outcrops, to enable retreat. Just something to bear in mind
 David Coley 18 Jun 2015
In reply to climbwhenready:

> The other use of a device that takes 2 ropes is that you can do a retrievable abseil, which is something you have to be able to do if you graduate past gritstone outcrops, to enable retreat. Just something to bear in mind

You can do a retrievable abseil with a grigri
 DrIan 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

Of course you don't need lots of shiny gear to go climbing, just go climbing with someone that does and borrow theirs.

A second is never more committed to getting a stuck cam out when it is actually theirs!


ceri 18 Jun 2015
In reply to captain paranoia:

I would agree that chalk is less necessary on low grade routes, as I think you should only really need it on slopey, less positive holds: if you have a door handle hold, your hands are unlikely to slip off?
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 jimjimjim 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Fredt:
Yep...I like to see the look on some of the faces as I drag my shity rope through the mud and waist belay my mate up the easy routes. It's good practice for poor belays in winter.
Post edited at 16:12
 TobyA 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Mostin3:
> why would you advise starting out with a manual advice?

Personally I'd got for an advice manual rather than manual advice. I used to get the BMC Handboook of Climbing out of my local library and take it to the crag with me when I was learning.
Post edited at 16:24
In reply to tinytom:
You see I agee with the above that the grigri is not the best device for a beginner- but I completely diagree with the reasons they've provided.

Being taught to use a belay plate correctly is very important. Good technique comes with practise on these things and because they don't autolock people tend to treat them with much more care than a grigri. So you learn good practise.

I never use a plate any more (only ever grigri2) but it takes a lot more skill to smoothly and safely belay a leader with a grigri than with a plate for the following reasons:

1) Feeding out rope quickly for a critical clip is way harder with a grigri. You need to have slack in the system, you need to walk forward and you need to safely disable the mechanism (though petzl ask you not to do this). I personally take a big loop in my right hand and hold it then reach under and lock the mechanism shut with the minimum possible of one finger pad then feed out like a belay plate (should the climber fall my tip wont be strong enough to hold the mech closed).
2) It's much harder to control the speed of descent. There have been cases of people getting gripped to the lever and as the climber being lowered falls faster they grip tighter and open the mech further making the climber fall even faster. Not good.
3) Reliance on the lock. I've seen people take their hands completely off the rope while using a grigri. Not particularly wise
4) Easy for a beginner to thread the wrong way around. Really bad if you're top roping.

The list goes on.

In relatively experienced hands the GriGri is immense, but learn with a plate first.
Post edited at 16:22
In reply to tinytom:

> as finger strength is poor, so any extra grip will help

You should concentrate on developing technique, especially footwork and balance, rather than grip. Reliance on grip and upper body strength on easy climbs are indications that you've got footwork and balance wrong ('thugging your way up').
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 Fruit 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

It would be sad to miss out on a life of fun and adventure because you didn't have the shiny stuff in the ads.

I started with a 45m 11mm rope, a tied tape sling, a waist belt, four nuts on rope (one was a moac), half a dozen crabs, a guide book from a second hand book shop, a handed down mad Joe Brown helmet and a pair of school pumps. Added leg loops to the harness after a bit and led vs in walking boots before I thought it necessary to buy rock boots. True I didn't start out on extremes, but we had lots of adventures.

We body belayed until I found a sticht plate whist hitching through Beddgelert.

No not the 1950s, that was 1980
 pamph 18 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

At the risk of being one of Monty Python's six Yorkshiremen I did start climbing with a pair of bendy boots and a 100ft nylon rope. Me and my mate tied on direct to the rope and worked on the principle that 'the leader never falls'. We also had two slings and two steel ex-WD crabs for the belays.
I am SO GLAD that things have moved on from there because believe me it is a scary way to learn to climb!
 Billhook 19 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:
You can see the perceptions living and developing on this thread:

a) The suggestions that two ropes are 'useful'.

b) Chalk is useful as it gives you better grip.

c) Gri Gri or other belay device are required.

As others have posted,this kit is not essential and not how many older climbers started climbing and is certainly NOT necessary when starting out.

You can get by with just one rope and no other equipment on many routes.
Post edited at 07:34
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 Mostin3 19 Jun 2015
In reply to TobyA:

Haha alright alright. I'd just finished a night shift ha
 Jamie B 19 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

The single most useful thing a beginner can acquire is a more experienced partner with a cupboard full of kit. I barely bought anything in my first year as an impoverished student, but when I did I had lots of good ideas about what worked and what didn't.
 TobyA 19 Jun 2015
In reply to Mostin3:

But seriously, having a really good instruction manual with you is not a bad idea at all as you start out - particularly if, like me, you are starting climbing in a part of the country where you just don't meet other climbers.
 GrahamD 19 Jun 2015
In reply to TobyA:

Surely most parts of the country have climbing clubs ?
 TobyA 19 Jun 2015
In reply to GrahamD:

Possibly, although as a teenager starting out pre-internet I didn't know anything about one local to me. I guess now most people start via walls which is a big difference too.
 Howard J 19 Jun 2015
In reply to Jamie B:

> The single most useful thing a beginner can acquire is a more experienced partner with a cupboard full of kit. I barely bought anything in my first year as an impoverished student, but when I did I had lots of good ideas about what worked and what didn't.


In reply to GrahamD:

> Surely most parts of the country have climbing clubs ?

I cannot understand the younger generation's apparent aversion to climbing clubs. They offer a great opportunity for new climbers to benefit from a wide range of experience and knowledge held by other climbers, who will have all the necessary gear. You can then acquire your own gear at a rate you can afford, and with a far better idea of what will actually be useful. They are also very sociable.
 GrahamD 19 Jun 2015
In reply to Howard J:

The gear is a serious point. After being taken climbing a couple of times my first gear purchase was a cam - simply because no-one else I climbed with had one.
 planetmarshall 19 Jun 2015
In reply to Howard J:

> I cannot understand the younger generation's apparent aversion to climbing clubs. They offer a great opportunity for new climbers to benefit from a wide range of experience and knowledge held by other climbers, who will have all the necessary gear. You can then acquire your own gear at a rate you can afford, and with a far better idea of what will actually be useful. They are also very sociable.

Perhaps because not everyone's experience of climbing clubs is positive. They can, for example, become cliquey and exclusive. Personally I had my fill of that during high school.

 climbwhenready 19 Jun 2015
In reply to Howard J:

I'm a club member. I've also seen quite a few other clubs either on the crag or when I've shared huts with them.

They seem to vary massively. Some are a loose network of people who go climbing (what a club should be!). Some are a small group of people who always go climbing together and are cliquey. Some are exclusively over 50 and bemoan the fact that young people don't want to join their club (I wonder why). Some have committee members who self-identify as climbers, but who can only look after themselves on a crag as long as nothing goes wrong, let alone look after a novice.

Here in London, you can essentially open your climbing club menu and choose which one to join. In other parts of the country, if the local club isn't for you for whatever reason, I imagine you're precluded from joining a club at all.
 andrewmc 19 Jun 2015
In reply to Dave Perry:

> c) Gri Gri or other belay device are required.

Who these days:

a) doesn't have a belay device or even a crab, and
b) is competent to belay without either?
 Oceanrower 19 Jun 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

a) I do, but
b) I am.

As will almost any caver.
 andrewmc 19 Jun 2015
In reply to Oceanrower:
That's why I said *and* - almost anyone who knows how to do a waist belay will have at least one crab, and so won't have to do a waist belay (normally)...

My point is that arguing that you don't _need_ a belay device is sort of irrelevant, since almost everyone who know how to do without one won't need to.
Post edited at 18:58
 elskorupa 19 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

I joined a club and advise anyone who has limited monies / kit available to do so. There's usually be plenty of gear going around to borrow and loads of opportunities to learn the basics of gear placement, setting up a belay, using twin ropes etc. I started with just a pair of shoes and the club provided me with the rest, old gear but safe.

You'll save the money (in the long run) that you spend indoors, which you can then spend on the kit as well as having a better learning experience.
 climbingpixie 19 Jun 2015
In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Agree completely with your post. It took a fair bit of practice for me to get as slick with paying out for a clip using a gri gri as with an ATC - for a long while I'd prefer to use an ATC if my partner was going for a redpoint attempt on something so I could make sure I paid out quickly enough. I also find a friction device more reassuring for lowering as you get to keep two hands on the brake rope.
 Billhook 19 Jun 2015
In reply to andrewmcleod:

That wasn't the OP question. You may not have or own either but that doesn't stop you climbing safely.
 cat22 20 Jun 2015
In reply to Andrew Mallinson:

If you have the shiny kit, it also lets you climb things where you can't just walk round to the top...
bobdelon1900 23 Jun 2015
we don't actually need any of it to climb. but some useful gear may still help. i think it depens
 Paul Hy 23 Jun 2015
In reply to tinytom:

Its been argued before but i'd NEVER use a GriGri for trad climbing so if you want to trad climb you will need to learn to use a manual belay device.

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